Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: mkaykov on September 27, 2005, 05:35:10 PM
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I have trouble lining myself up with the runway, so i have to do it at the last minute, and My landing is not very good. How can i line myself up better. also, i slow down too much, and looses too much altitude, so i am on the verge of stall and barely make it to the runway.
any suggestions, practice methods?
thank you
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Most people tend to rush landings, that is the problem, or they try and "force" them with bad technique. Start out early, get lined up and bleed off any excess speed/alt while still 45 sec+ away from landing. Then, turn into the airfield and control your speed while lowering flaps/gear. You should make gentle adjustments to your course just to refine it as you approach and watch you speed, it should be between 110-130mph on most aircraft (some can be slower than that). Typically that range of speed gives you enough control that you won't be stalling all over the place. Don't come in too low, you want a nice glide-slope into the runway, coming in too low tends to result in stalls and crashes plus you can't see the runway well to refine your aim. A good method to not come in shallow like that is to aim to land on the far end of the runway, to start, then slowly move the aim point to the start of the runway. This also helps later with CV landings. Just float down while adjusting your speed and pull back gently as you cross the runway threshold and reduce power until you settle onto the runway. You don't want to "fly into it", you want to float down onto it.
Usually after a couple of offline practices you'll get the feeling for it. Once you get the hang of it you can shorten your approach and be more aggressive.
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okay, thanks. i will try it with a bf 109
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As always, good advice from Soda.
One thing that I've notice with my landings that I've changed, and I've seen other pilots do it, is to not take into account that the runways in AH are more than long enough for most aircraft. Especially fighter. Don't rush it to the ground if your not ready once you get over the runway. You've got time. You don't have to drop down at the beginning of the runway. I've put wheels down more that halfway down the runway and was able to stop before the end.
Another thing you can do to practice is get setup for landing and instead of landing try to hold your place a foot or 2 off the runway at minimum speed to keep it there. This will give you the feel of when you are ready to flair the plane and set her down.
(Flair is when you pull back on the stick and the plane settles down on the runway)
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thanks! great help!
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One other thing to practice is controlling altitude with throttle.
For example... line up with the runway... when i feel i'm coming in "too short" i'll goose the throttle (while holding the nose at the same level) and if you do the same you'll notice you'll level off or start to climb, even. When you get to the runway, back off the throttle but don't nose it down... and you should set right down.
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Good advice there.
Id add two more things:
Practice makes perfect. Go practicing offline or TA (if you feel bored by the drones radio chatter ;)). In TA you might also find someone to help you fine tune.
Practice with something easier to land than a 109 first. Spit or hurri would be best i think, because of their low speed handling.
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P-38 has a nosewheel and you're over the numbers at 100mph. Pretty snazzy :)
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I have noticed in AH that concepts from the book "Stick and Rudder" work:
1. Throttle forward -> Climb; Throttle back -> Descend
2. Attitude = speed; nose high (stick back) = low speed, nose low (stick forward) =high speed
To relate this simplified flying concept to landing, chopping the throttle will make the plane descend. Dropping flaps and pulling back on the stick will slow the plane down. If you are too low, or realize you won't land on the runway, add throttle. If you are coming in too fast (with throttle back), try rolling the plane to the left with full right rudder which will yaw the plane and bleed speed.
I think it's easier to add some throttle on landing rather than bleed speed, but maybe that's personal preference. One way to perfect your landing is to go offline or in the TA, take off and climb to 2k, then kill the engine and try to land dead stick. Once you can land dead stick, having an engine makes landing easy.
One other thing I have noticed is that some planes (such as the Corsair) require centered elevator trim when landing so the tail wheel will lock. The Spitfires don't need that and I recommend starting with them.
Regards,
Malta
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Any tips on landing the birds with monster torque --notably, the F4U family? If the runway doesnt have a cable for the tailhook, I end up ground looping most every time anymore....
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The 'trick' to landing the F4U's is to have the elevator trim centered or below center on approach. That means combat trim is off. Trying to land a F4U with combat trim on will result in a banged up bird 90% of the time unless its on a carrier with the hook out.
The reason for the elevator trim is so the tail wheel will lock on touchdown. The tail wheel locks with the stick back 40-50%. I am not going to get into any 'monster torque' debates about the F4U again, so lets just leave the topic with a way to fix the landing, which is no combat trim and elevator trim <1/2.
Regards,
Malta
p.s. Yes, I play the game and the F4U is my main ride.
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Trick to landing the F4u's is to bind Left and Right Brake to the keys C and V. This way you can hit the ground, throttle back and still use your rudder and brakes to easily control which direction it'll go.
I haven't looped once since I've started doing this.
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Originally posted by stantond
snip....
I am not going to get into any 'monster torque' debates about the F4U again, so lets just leave the topic with a way to fix the landing, which is no combat trim and elevator trim <1/2.
Regards,
Malta
Hehe. OK, torque, or rotating slipstream off the great big rudder, or whatever -- i just dont wnat to groundloop! :lol
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If you're using the F4U as a main ride and groundloop 90% of the time with your combat trim on...you've got a flawed technique.
For one...I never turn combat trim off unless I've been stupid and compressed my 109 or 262...it's fine if you leave it on it won't hurt you.
If you are too low, or realize you won't land on the runway, add throttle. If you are coming in too fast (with throttle back), try rolling the plane to the left with full right rudder which will yaw the plane and bleed speed.
What you speak of here is a slip.
Hopefully this will help you with the idea of what a slip is.
(Yes, I am a MS paint artist in my spare time :) )
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/856_1129668513_slipdiagram.jpg)
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flaps, flaps, flaps, flaps and oh yeah.. flaps.
as you are droping flaps, use the "i" key for nose down trim, to offset the lift the flaps give you. You can now stay in the air at 100-120 kias no problem. line up the runway, and belly land the sucker. belly landing is easy, just be under 150kias.
screech to a halt, and .ef it.
Lute landing 101. Works on cv's 2.
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Originally posted by Golfer
If you're using the F4U as a main ride and groundloop 90% of the time with your combat trim on...you've got a flawed technique.
snip...
For someone who doesn't fly the F4U, that is a pretty ignorant thing to say. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt and consider that you actually play the game, albeit never fly the F4U. Try flying the F4U (fighter or attack) without changing planes using combat trim for two sequential sorties landing at an airfield, then tell us the best techique. Comments from the peanut gallery are ignored.
Regards,
Malta
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Originally posted by stantond
For someone who doesn't fly the F4U, that is a pretty ignorant thing to say. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt and consider that you actually play the game, albeit never fly the F4U. Try flying the F4U (fighter or attack) without changing planes using combat trim for two sequential sorties landing at an airfield, then tell us the best techique. Comments from the peanut gallery are ignored.
Regards,
Malta
I'd love to say "you're joking, right" however I have a feeling that would go very much unappreciated and not sound insulting.
I took 7 minutes out of my busy life when I read that post and have created this film demonstrating my unexplained and magic ability to land the F4U and have included a great deal of sarcasm for other viewers' pleasure.
(Loosely based on your previous rather insulting post)
And for someone who does fly the F4U, you're a pretty ignorant person. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you've got your head up your rear, albeit never successfully land the F4U. Try landing the F4U without changing planes or combat trim in one consecutive sortie while landing at an airfield and then tell me your flawed technique. Comments from the center ring of the Malta Circus are ignored.
Disregards,
Golfer
On a more serious and constructive note because I just can't help myself...
You have a flawed technique and I sincerely hope that this film in some way helps you recognize something that you're doing wrong. I am more than happy to help people with whatever it is they require and always try to go the extra mile to make sure the principal at hand is understood. I spend enough hours in the Training Arena and have enough experience in each and every aces high aircraft, vehicle and vessel that I have instructional knowledge of each and believe it or not...can help. If you're interested in ammending your flawed technique...just say the words and we'll get to the bottom of it. If you want to be snobby, take it somewhere else.
Link is Hot
F4U Landings on an airfield....oh my! (http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/856_1129680164_golferf4ulandingsonfield.ahf)
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Landing the F4U:
Gear down at 300 mph or less.
Begin feeding out flaps at 250 mph.
Full flaps by 150 mph.
Over the numbers about 10 mph above stall.
Flair, nose high, 3 point the touchdown Stall horn should be howling at touchdown. Power should be at idle when the wheels touch.
Firmly plant the tail wheel immediately using elevator.
Apply brakes and stop.
I haven't ground-looped a Corsair in years using this method.
Here's a basic training film for landing the F4U (http://home.att.net/~ww2aviation/F4ULanding.ahf).
My regards,
Widewing
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Well Golfer,
I don't consider my technique flawed, since I can land the F4U 100% of the time without busting up the aircraft. Judging from the film, you can repeatedly land the F4U without any problem too! Congratuations! Maybe you can clue some people in on what you were doing and what that they were not?
I really could not tell what you were doing that kept the plane from ground looping. Using left and right wheel brakes? Also, just to keep you out of the peanut gallery... can you post taxing over to a reload pad and taxi back to the runway and taking off more than once? That is what I meant by two sequential sortes. That would convince me of your superiority and my flawed technique.
Do you ever watch your own films? Text would be much more helpful. Your voice was garbled through 90% of the film. I don't think anyone will be a better pilot after watching it, but time will tell. It sounded like the whole point of the film was to refute my calling you ignorant, for which I was incorrect and apologize.
Nice flying, btw. Maybe there is something wrong with my stick setup, but I don't think I am alone in being able to ground loop a F4U. If the plane is not landed perfectly level, or bounces, it has a tendency to ground loop. But hey, its not my question. I can land the F4U 100% of the time without any magic lama!
Regards,
Malta
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Originally posted by Simaril
Any tips on landing the birds with monster torque --notably, the F4U family? If the runway doesnt have a cable for the tailhook, I end up ground looping most every time anymore....
Reduce RPMs while landing thenit wont pull to one side.
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If you're using the F4U as a main ride and groundloop 90% of the time with your combat trim on...you've got a flawed technique.
For one...I never turn combat trim off unless I've been stupid and compressed my 109 or 262...it's fine if you leave it on it won't hurt you.
I guess everyone has their own opinion on if Combat Trim helps or hurts one, while flying and while landing etc....... for the more prominate F4U flyers, I would say just about everyone of them fly with Manual Trim and know 1st hand that you are at a dis advantage flying the F4U with Combat Trim turned on.
setting up for approach and entering a lined up glide path while dropping gear as Widewing noted and clicking out a notch of flaps as you slow down to near 120 to 100 mph then FLARE your landing and float odown with a 3 point touc ( this is the Flare all 3 wheels touch runway same time ) chop throttle to "0". To keep from swirving left or right pull back and lock the tail wheel in the beginning, but to do it faster and easier just use alternate braking of the C & V keys and you can putt putt around to reload, to the hangar etc around 45 to 60 mph and never have to worry bout ground looping.
a common ground trim setting for the blue planes ( most US planes ) is set your elevator trim tab inline with the bottom part of the L like the following diagram:
E
L _ < the red horizontal line should be about inline with bottom part of the L
V
fastest and easiest way to obtain this trim setting is to turn on Combat Trim ( CT ) nose low in shallow dive wings level, when the Red elavator Tab lines up with the bottom of the L, turn CT ( combat Trim off ) and most times your speed will be around 275 to 325 vicinity. this is what most call nuetral trim. You fly with this setting for awhile and you can see how much more performance you can actually squeeze from your Steed...............try it you just might like it
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can you post taxing over to a reload pad and taxi back to the runway and taking off more than once? That is what I meant by two sequential sortes.
link (http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/856_1129763783_golferf4ufieldops.ahf)
It sounded like the whole point of the film was to refute my calling you ignorant
And that it was. Mostly a Kiss-my-*** post. I'd edit out the posts above but I'm past the time limit.
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The f4u1 should always land on the main gear on a runway,not a 3 point landing,on a carrier you need to drop the tail so the hook can grab.
The f4u was notorius for ground looping & this was the the solution & how cadets were taught to land the f4u on a runway.:)
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Do a search for landing the F4U. There have been many, many posts about this. I have posted, TC has posted, etc etc etc.
There are films, movies, write ups, arguments and just plain old poor information and advice.
TC is bang on right with his advice btw.
I don't care how the cadets were taught to land it (and I think you are wrongthere anyway scot123), what people need to know is how to land This Corsair in Aces High.
This subject has been beat to death.
RTR
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Originally posted by scott123
The f4u1 should always land on the main gear on a runway,not a 3 point landing,on a carrier you need to drop the tail so the hook can grab.
Thanks scott123, but my 332 traps aboard Saratoga, Eisenhower and Nimitz provide me with a vague idea of what's involved.
My regards,
Widewing
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i seriously cant believe this! not that anyone would have difficulty landing the F4u (it is difficult, my tirck is flaps full and glide in at idle max speed 150mph. let yourself roll to about 60mph before applying the brakes fully), but that anyone would argue with a real life pilot for his landing tech based on a simulator as experience...but...ah well....each to their own.
bottom line is though, if you're getting the a/c down without damage 100% of the time your method is fine.
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What I have grown to appreciate is that with AH you can read a pilots manual... and apply it!
(http://members.cox.net/stantond/F4u landing.jpg)
(http://members.cox.net/stantond/F4u landing_1.jpg)
Regards,
Malta
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shame we dont have all the engine management as an option. It would make the game alot more difficult.
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1 more thing you can do to help is to raise your flaps back up all the way as soon as your ready to flare, that basically takes all the lift off of the wing and actually puts pressure on it ( pushing you down ). I usually come in riding full flaps and right as I flare or maybe just a split second after I do ( right b4 wheels touchdown ) I raise my flaps all the way back up and hit both brakes... I have never tumbled one yet or any plane for that matter, I use this method with any plane, also very usefull for cv landing if you don't have or miss the hook... Sometimes if I need to stop extra quick I'll turn off the engine as well... I would suggest doing some touch and go's practicing using flaps do dump the wing lift..... If you are leaving the flaps extended or down while trying to stop on the runway you are landing incorrectly. Because while you are trying to slow down the wings are still trying to lift the plane back up, thats why you see allot of people skipping or hopping as they land, there wheels are on the ground and there smashing the brakes, the only prob is the plane is still goin over 50-60mph and the wings still have allot of lift, so the plane is trying to climb and get airborne again. in some planes such as zekes and nikis this is criticle if u want to stop quick, because those planes will skip and bounce down the runway until you get under about 40mph.... with the F4U this also allows you to pull back on the stick once you get wheels down which will help keep u from tumbling nose over. if u had flaps extended and u pulled back on the stick the plane would mosst likely lift off the runway, but if your flaps are up, it will help keep your tail wheel on the ground and also keeps it straight so your not having to use differential brake or rudder constantly to stay in the mid of the runway... Using this method you only need about 1/8 of the runway to stop... if I'm reloading i'll just glide the 1st 3/4 of the runway then i'll raise my flaps and release all that lift and bammo i'm already at the refuel pad, no need for that 10 minute taxi... play around with it enough and eventually you will be able to land right next to the pad on the small cross road that the pad sits on that connects to the big runway... Also works in reverse if you are taking off, if u need to up quickly just drop some flaps and that will add extra lift to the wings, just remember they are down so that when you want to auto climb or whatever remember to raise em back up... The norm is to not use any flaps during takeoff, but if you are rearming a lanc on a cv they are a must in order to get airborne again :)
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Originally posted by Widewing
Thanks scott123, but my 332 traps aboard Saratoga,
My regards,
Widewing
showing ya age ther Ww :D
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Originally posted by Iceman24
snipped
Good Stuff Iceman24 :aok