Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: KD303 on September 28, 2005, 07:11:44 AM
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Short Sunderland flying boat for use from ports. It'd be useful for maritime patrols and attacking shipping.
Also, you could have a mine laying feature too, making life tough for those CV groups!
It was known as the Flying Porcupine due to the fact that it bristled with guns, so it wasn't defenseless and would make a good addition IMHO.
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It bristled with .303s. It was defenseless.
If you want a flying boat that might be able to defend itslef, not to mention having more than twice the climbrate and more than half again the top speed, look at the H8K2 "Emily" used by the Japanese navy.
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The Short did have a good reputation though, and actually enemy fighters did fear it's armament.
Ju88's and 110's I guess they were, and perhaps lightly armed for endurance?
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I posted in the History section about the death of actor Leslie Howard on a Free Dutch DC-3 flying from Lisbon to England and attacked by Ju88G's out to sea.
The following day 7 or 8 of these Ju88's came back to attack a Sunderland conducting SAR at the area the DC-3 went down. The flying boat managed to shoot down four of the Ju88's with the help of two extra .303's mounted in the lower galley windows! (It took some damage but survived.)
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2 of the crew died, I believe, the boat was riddled so bad it sank upon landing.
Moot point. We will NOT get any flying boats in AH, ever. Not until
1- there's a use for them (NO SHIPPING! NO need!)
2- there's a way to model landing on water accurately and taking off again
3- the damage model becomes a bit more in-depth, as-is these planes would be defensless (YES, even the deathstar wannabe emily would be a sitting duck)
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Why would the Emily be any more vulnerable than any comparable bomber? Defended by lots of guns and cannons (though not the best guns or cannons admittedly), renown for durability, 1,800fpm initial climb rate, 285mph top speed, 24 hour fuel endurance (merely 12 hours at MA settings) and a 6,600lb bomb load.
That doesn't to different from other four engined bombers in AH. Yes, sitting ducks, but not sitting ducks that stand out from other such sitting ducks.
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So, essentially, it's a B24 with a 12 hour (in our MA) flight duration, but weaker armament?
Just fly the B24. As-is I am adamant that there is no reason for any flying boat, from any period of the war. Most performed duties that AH completely ignores, and as such without the duties being important, without a reason to do them (some sort of strat?), without a reason to stop them, without some motivating factor to make people use flying boats, and without some impetus to shoot them down in their flying boats, they serve no role in AH.
That's in no way a slight on your desire to have one, Karnak. I merely wish to explain why I feel AH will never see them.
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Well, the reason I want the Emily is because it would be a great balancer for Pac Setups as it carries three times the bomb load of any other Japanese aircraft. The fact that it is a flying boat is just a happenstance.
The guns would be a lot different than the B-24's. I don't think they'd be as good, but a lucky 20mm hit could happen.
Also I think it would be significantly tougher then the B-24. All of the crew positions were armored and it had well protected fuel tanks and engines.
The only real reason I hold out hope is that it was one of the three aircraft Pyro once said he personally wanted to do, the other two being the Me410 and Storch.
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I don't think the unarmed storch will work too well in AH :P
But if Pyro says he wants the me410 and emily, well we'll see if he can work them in or not.
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He wanted to do a Storch because it would have such a radically different flight model. I think it was that he would find it fun just to make such a different flight model. Those were things Pyro wanted to do, not things that are going to be done for sure.
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Originally posted by Krusty
and without some impetus to shoot them down in their flying boats,
I believe that as always is the sheer joy of watching someone blow the heck up.
I'd shoot down Mother Theresa on a red cross flight full of orphans. Not my fault she didnt have enough escort.
I think a Storch would be more useful then a flying boat anyway, and be more fun to fly, and still serve the same purpose, nothing.
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Originally posted by Karnak
It bristled with .303s. It was defenseless.
Hmm. It had four 303s in the rear and it had a couple of 50s too. Defenseless it was not.
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Just looked up the 410 and may I say BRING it to aces high.
Not only is it a verry nice looking plane I looks like it has tremendous ground attack potential. The site i found with google said could be equiped with either 20 mm , 30 mm, 50 mm, rockets in a rotating tube set up . Once again bring it please.
Bronk
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Mention of the ME410 gets me thinking of another model - The Heinkel 219 Owl. Here's a link.
http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero/aircraft/heinkel_219.htm (http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero/aircraft/heinkel_219.htm)
I first came across this plane in a book as a kid and was amazed by how advanced it was for the time.
This line from the link above interested me - "On November 2-3, 1944, one He-219 downed six bombers in 12 minutes..."
KD (http://www.kirupa.com/forum/images/smilies/alien.gif)
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The He219 never obtained the manufactuer's claimed performance in actual service. It could not break 400mph, let alone reach the claimed 419mph. The Mosquito NF.Mk XXX was markedly superior to the He219.
Some people may say that top speed and acceleration are not really needed in a night fighter, and they are less important, but they most certainly still matter.
I love how the He219 looks though. So intricate and bug like.
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If we are talking flying-boats, also think of the Catalina, 2 x .50's in the blisters, maybe one .50 in the belly door and a .303 turret in the nose
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Um, don't we need water first?
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From UBOAT.NET
http://uboat.net/allies/aircraft/sunderland.htm
Fighting the U-boats
Aircraft & Air forces
Short Sunderland
prepared by Emmanuel Gustin
(http://uboat.net/allies/aircraft/photos/sunderland1.jpg)
To meet requirement R.2/33 of the Air Ministry for a general reconnaissance flying boat, Short developed the S.25 Sunderland from their famous S.23 "Empire" or "C-class" flying boat, the flagship of Imperial Airways. The S.25 first flew on 16 October 1937.
The Sunderland had a deep hull, and the wings were set high on the fuselage, to keep the engines and propellers away from the water spray. For the time, its size was very impressive. The hull had a single step, which served to break the suction of the water, and allow the flying boat to unstick. The characteristic blunt nose contained a two-gun turret, and the tail a four-gun turret. To correct a problem with the center of gravity, the wings were given a slight sweepback; the result was that the engines were slightly toed out. This cost some engine efficiency, but an advantage was that it improved controllability with one engine out. The stabilizing floats under the wing tips were attached by two struts and wire-bracing. On the water the aircraft was steered by canvas drogues, which were deployed through the galley windows.
The Sunderland was a pure flying boat, and if it had to be brought on shore special beaching wheels had to be fitted. Usually the Sunderlands were moored to a buoy. For this purpose, the front gun turret was rolled back and a chain was ran out. An anchor was on board, too. Daily maintenance was performed while the aircraft was moored. Supplies, fuel and ammunition were brought by boats, and some care was required to avoid damaging the hull. It was not uncommon for crews to live in their Sunderland between flights. If the aircraft was moored two men were required to be on board during the night, and during gales a pilot had to be on board because the engines were used to turn the aircraft in the wind. Of course the bilges had to be pumped out regularly, and for this both a manual pump and a pump driven by an Auxiliary Power Unit were installed.
(http://uboat.net/allies/aircraft/photos/sunderland2.jpg)
Interior shot, looking forward from the tail.
The Sunderland Mk.I was powered by four Bristol Pegasus XXII air-cooled radial engines of 1010hp. The fuel for these engines was held in ten self-sealing fuel tanks in the wings, for a total of 2552 gallons (11600 liters). In addition to the guns in the nose and tail turret, the Mk.I had two guns in hatches on the upper aft fuselage. The Mk.II had slightly more powerful Pegasus XVIII engines with constant-speed airscrews, and late in its production run a dorsal gun turret was introduced, replacing the hatches. The Mk.II also carried ASV Mk.II radar . The Pegasus engines and the dorsal turret were retained by the Mk.III, which also had a more streamlined hull with a faired step. This reduced drag, but could cause porpoising during take-off and landing. The Mk.IV was redesigned for operations in the Pacific; it was later renamed Seaford. Only six Seafords were built before the project was cancelled.
The Mk.V had American Pratt & Whitney R-1830-90B engines of 1200hp. Both the Pegasus and the R-1830 were very reliable engines, but the R-1830s had fully-feathering propellers, and in combination with the additional power this significantly increased a chance of a Sunderland to stay airborne with one or two engines out. The Mk.V also had four fixed, forward-firing guns, and two hatches in the aft fuselage for additional guns. The late production Mk.IIIs and the Mk.Vs had centimetric ASV radar. When the war broke out, Coastal Command had 34 Sunderlands in service. Over 700 Sunderlands were built and they served until 1959: 90 Mk.Is, 43 Mk.IIs, 456 Mk.IIIs and 150 Mk.Vs.
The fuselage of the Sunderland was roomy enough to give the crew of ten or more men some comfort on their long patrol flights, which could last up to 13 hours. The front part of the fuselage was divided in two decks. The upper deck contained the cockpit with the two pilots, and the stations for the flight engineer, the wireless operator and the navigator. There was also a compartiment for flares, and positions for the gunners.
On the lower deck there was a bomb room, were bombs or depth charges were stored on movable racks, which were moved to under the wing before an attack. For this purpose there were large rectangular doors under the wings. There was a bomb-aiming position in the nose, below the turret. The bomb load was small for such a large aircraft, but its primary task was reconnaissance. The lower deck also had a wardroom, a galley with two primus stoves and an oven, two bunks for off-duty crewmembers, a flush lavatory, a wash basin, and a shaving mirror. Crews would often collect their own set of dishes and cooking utensils, add curtains to the small wardroom, and install luxuries like a portable radio.
(http://uboat.net/allies/aircraft/photos/sunderland3.jpg)
Rear view. This Sunderland is equipped with ASV MK.II
The Sunderland was easy and pleasant to fly, but for long patrols the pilots had the benefit of an autopilot. Its cruising speed was about 225km/h and it usually flew patrols at low altitudes. The main task of many Sunderlands was tracking enemy shipping, flying long patrols over an empty sea. Some crews never saw an enemy in the entire war. The Sunderland also flew search-and-rescue missions. It has to be pointed out that normally, the Sunderland could not land to pick up survivors. Like other flying boats, it could land and take-off only from sheltered coastal waters. From 1942 onwards, landings in open sea were expressly forbidden, except in special circumstances and with permission.
U-boat patrols, carrying eight depth charges, were an important task of the Sunderlands. They patrolled the approaches, or flew convoy protection missions. The two were often combined, with the Sunderlands meeting the convoys at some distance in the ocean. When an U-boat was sighted, the Sunderlands tried to attack it before it submerged. Although described as "depth charges", its bombs were set to explode at a depth of 25 feet to 30 feet, effective enough against surfaced submarines. Late in the war, the submarines were well-armed with Flak and willing to fight it out, while zig-zagging on the surface. In response, the Sunderlands were fitted with four fixed, forward-firing guns, to silence the Flak. The confrontations were extremely dangerous for both the Sunderland and the U-boat. Sunderlands also attacked small surface ships.
The Sunderland was vulnerable to enemy fighters, because it was slow and operated out of the range of Allied fighters. However, the later Sunderlands were well-armed, with nose, dorsal and tail turrets, gun hatches in the aft fuselage, and often some additional guns added by the crews. Flying low above the waves to prevent attacks from below, a Sunderland was not an easy victim, and managed to defend itself very well. For example, in 2 June 1943 a Sunderland survived an attack by eight Ju 88s, shooting down three of them, although it was riddled with holes, lost an engine, and several crewmembers were wounded. Such exploits allegedly earned it the German nickname of "Fliegendes Stachelschwein" (Flying Porcupine), although this could also be attributed to the large array of radar antennas fitted to many Sunderlands.
Perhaps the greatest weakness of the Sunderland was that its range, while significant, was not long enough the close the "mid-Atlantic gap". Coastal Command had to wait for the Liberator to cover the entire Atlantic. But where the Sunderland could operate, it was very effective.
U-boats sunk by this aircraft
1940
U-55 +, U-26 +,
1943
U-465, U-663, U-753 +, U-440, U-563 +, U-607, U-461,
U-383, U-454, U-106 +, U-489, U-610,
1944
U-426, U-571, U-625, U-675, U-955, U-970, U-243,
U-1222, U-385 +, U-270, U-107, U-322 +, U-297,
27 U-boats lost to Sunderland aircraft. + means that the Sunderland shared the credit for the sinking.
There is always a very slight chance we might have missed one or two boats in this lookup. If you suspect so please let us know.
Specifications of the Sunderland GR Mk.V
Four 1200hp (895kW) Pratt & Whitney R-1830-90B engines
Wing span 34.38m, length 26.00m, height 10.52m, wing area 156.72m2.
Empty weight: 16738kg, maximum take-off weight 29484kg.
Maximum speed: 343km/h, ceiling 5455m.
Range: 4330km with 757kg bombs.
Armament: ten .303 (7.7mm) guns, two 0.50 (12.7mm) guns, and up to 2250kg of bombs and depth charges.
:aok
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Originally posted by Karnak
The He219 never obtained the manufactuer's claimed performance in actual service. It could not break 400mph, let alone reach the claimed 419mph. The Mosquito NF.Mk XXX was markedly superior to the He219.
Some people may say that top speed and acceleration are not really needed in a night fighter, and they are less important, but they most certainly still matter.
I thought it was the fasted twin engined piston night fighter the Germans had. No?
It was also responsible for shooting down Mosquitos (though probably bomber versions rather than late model NF variants). It didn't just look good, it had very good performance. As far as I know, the first 6 NF sorties of He 219A-0s, claimed 20 British bombers, 6 of which were Mosquitos.
It was way ahead of of the other twin, piston engined German night fighters.
It would certainly be very interesting to have a He 219 A-7/R4 armed with 2x 30mm Mk108s in shrage musik mounting, 2 MG 151/20s in ventral mounting and 2 151/20s in the wings, and a Mosquito NF. MkXXX or MkXIX available in Aces High to see how they'd get on in a tangle.
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Look here:
http://www.uboat.net
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Info on all:
U-1222
Type IXC/40
Laid down 2 Nov, 1942 Deutsche Werft AG, Hamburg
Commissioned 1 Sep, 1943 Kptlt. Heinz Bielfeld
Commanders 1 Sep, 1943 - 11 Jul, 1944 Kptlt. Heinz Bielfeld
Career 1 patrol 1 Sep, 1943 - 29 Feb, 1944 4. Flottille (training)
1 Mar, 1944 - 11 Jul, 1944 10. Flottille (front boat)
Successes No ships sunk or damaged
Fate Sunk 11 July, 1944 in the Bay of Biscay west of La Rochelle, in position 46.31N, 05.29W, by depth charges from a British Sunderland aircraft (Sqdn 201/P). 56 dead (all hands lost).