Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Hornet33 on September 28, 2005, 10:55:32 AM
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OK, I see all the time people posting messages, "perk this, or perk that"
La7 is a good one to talk about. So many people want to see it perked. Heres my question. Isn't the perk system designed for the "rare" planes and vehicles? The more rare a plane was the higher the perks? Me 262. Not many of them built = high perks. Tiger tank. Very slow production run, limited numbers built = high perks. La7. Russians built thousands of the things. One of their best fighters. Should it be perked? NO.
Here's anouther one I see alot. "Perk bomber formations" Why?? In WWII, with few exceptions, they always flew in FORMATIONS of bombers. 1000 plane raids of B-24's, B-17's, Lancasters, JU-88's, and all the other bombers. It shouldn't cost anything to take up a formation of only 3 bombers. A 3 plane formation of bombers isn't that hard to kill if you do it right. I've downed a formation of B-24's in an FM2 before.
People have already screamed the the B-29 should or will be perked if it comes to the game. It shouldn't be. The US manufactured alot of those planes. They saw service in 2 wars. Are they going to be hard to defend against. You bet they will. Is this unfair? Nope. Will I be upset when a flight comes over and bombs a base I'm trying to defend, and flattens the place. Probably, but that doesn't mean it should be perked.
I would suggest to all the "perk everything" people to download the AH2 manual and read about the perk point system. If you get killed by an La7 or the lazer guided .50's on the bombers you did something wrong. Doesn't mean they need to be perked.
Oh and I'm not a regular La7 driver. Once in a blue moon. I like the FM2.
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It is great sport to shoot down all those LA7 dweebs, as well as the P-51's, and Spit 9's. If we perk all the good aircraft, than where will be the fun of showing that it is actually the pilot and not the plane. By the way, my fighter of choice is the c.205
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Originally posted by Hornet33
Isn't the perk system designed for the "rare" planes and vehicles?
My understanding is that perk values are based on usage in the main arena, not usage in real life.
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Originally posted by Hornet33
OK, I see all the time people posting messages, "perk this, or perk that"
La7 is a good one to talk about. So many people want to see it perked. Heres my question. Isn't the perk system designed for the "rare" planes and vehicles? The more rare a plane was the higher the perks? Me 262. Not many of them built = high perks. Tiger tank. Very slow production run, limited numbers built = high perks. La7. Russians built thousands of the things. One of their best fighters. Should it be perked? NO.
From the help files:
The perk system is a way for HTC to introduce some interesting but otherwise unbalancing planes on a limited basis but the benefits go deeper than that. Perk planes (and vehicles) would be things like Me 262s, Ta 152s, Tempests, B-29s, Ar 234s, Tiger IIs, etc. These are interesting rides but would be very unbalancing if they were available on an unlimited basis. So there won't be unlimited availability but they'll be available as bonuses or perks every so often.
It has nothing to do with production run. In that case the N1K and many others would need to be perked, since they were produced in even less numbers than the 262.
The reason for the perk system was really shown back in the days when the F4U-1C was free. It ended up with something like 25% !! of all kills in the MA each tour and was subject to moaning in the MA and on the boards exceeding that concerning the La-7 and others combined (or so I remember).
With just a almost symbolic perk cost it's impact dropped instantly and I don't think anyone looking back on it thought it was a wrong decision.
Now personally I don't think that the La-7 is in dire need of perking. Besides being a very capable short ranger fighter, it's not much else. The F4U-1C could really do it all, great guns, great ammo, great loadout, overall great plane AND carrier-borne, which is why it saw so much use. (and the planeset were smaller back then).
On the other hand I would really like to try, maybe just for a tour, a MA with widespread perk-costs on all but the "weakest" planes. I think Kweassa has made some good suggestions on that idea.
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Both. Some have perks applied as a rule (262s, 163s, 152s) because of number of units (and the relative scarcity of the real aircraft). This simulates proportions in the arena comparable to real WW2.
Some have perks due to performance. The spit14 we have is perked because it has a rate of climb and a zoom capability that leave EVERY plane in the game gasping behind it. Spit16 might be more so. SpitXIV is perked for performance reasons (its an uber plane, basically).
Some have perks put on them due to complete de-stabilization of the MA. F4uC comes to mind. The entire arena was mostly c-hogs, and knowing the MA it was probably 95% HO dweebs and cherry pickers. Regardless, the plane was relatively rare (200 tops were made, and used only by a small group to shoot down kamikazes), so a perk was put in place after the fact, due to over use.
Basically, perks balance the gameplay. They can be put on for various reasons.
HTC has said they might revisit the 152 and unperk it, due to piss poor performance at almost every altitude that matters :P (okay, so not their exact words, but you know -- I read between the lines!)
As such, there is nothing that needs balancing in a ta152. The 190D flies better than it so chances are that the arena won't be flooded with it (if unperked). It won't dominate unless super high alts, and then all the enemy has to do is dive to lower alts and it sucks again.
So the perks are a fluid thing. They change with the tide of the MA. This is also evidenced by the ENY value changes recently (spits getting ENY 10, some other minor changes).
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Snefens, you beat me to it! lol. I was typing at the same time you were.
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Well, the current problem is that there are two versions of La7's that we need.
One is the two gun La7. It performs slightly less than the La7 we have now. This should not be perked.
The other is the 3 gun La7. From what I've been reading, it performs exactly like the one we have now. This should be perked.
Btw, if you think of the La7 as only as a short range fighter, you haven't discovered cruise settings.
Take the La7 up to 12k on full throttle. When you get there, put it on max cruise. You'll be going 290 mph or so. When it's time to engage, go full throttle and drop to 10k.
The La7 can go alot further if you cruise it for longer.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Well, the current problem is that there are two versions of La7's that we need.
One is the two gun La7. It performs slightly less than the La7 we have now. This should not be perked.
The other is the 3 gun La7. From what I've been reading, it performs exactly like the one we have now. This should be perked.
The La7 does not need to be perked. The La7 does not unbalance the game play in the MA, it has too many weaknesses to make it able to unbalance the arena.
ack-ack
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Keep telling yourself that Ack-Ack. Maybe some day it'll come true.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Btw, if you think of the La7 as only as a short range fighter, you haven't discovered cruise settings.
Take the La7 up to 12k on full throttle. When you get there, put it on max cruise. You'll be going 290 mph or so. When it's time to engage, go full throttle and drop to 10k.
The La7 can go alot further if you cruise it for longer.
You know, the La-7 doesn't have monopoly on cruise settings. Other planes can extend their endurance with that as well, but I would call them short ranged anyway.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Take the La7 up to 12k on full throttle. When you get there, put it on max cruise. You'll be going 290 mph or so. When it's time to engage, go full throttle and drop to 10k.
First 5-minute's intensive fight will force you to rtb because of fuel shortage.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
The La7 does not need to be perked. The La7 does not unbalance the game play in the MA, it has too many weaknesses to make it able to unbalance the arena.
ack-ack
Actually, of late, I've been seeing a lot of 190s taking the place of LA7s. Same use, same tatics. Different bird.
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First 5-minute's intensive fight will force you to rtb because of fuel shortage.
Hardly.
Is everyone just commenting on this? Am I the only one who has actually done it?
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All I'm saying is that I can take up my 109G2 and do the same thing WITHOUT taking the DT.
In the MA the endurance (of the 109) is adequate enough for me, and I actually rarely take the DT, but that doesn't make it "long-legged".
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I think we should understand that the 2 gun La7 was produced side by side with the 3 gun version (albeit in differing factories) during 45.
Further that whilst its clear that production standard improved between May and December 44 and also clear that standards were optimised by January 45...........................
The only other difference (other the armament set up) between early and late La7's was air filters on the supercharger intake and latterly a loop arial (post war).
Hence trying to give a 44(2 gun) and a 45(3 gun) differing perfomances would be in error and open the door to similar claims across many AC modelled in AH.
I am infact in favour of splitting the two options...........and can sympathise with the idea of applying some perk to the 3 gun option. But it does not fall within the criteria of why perks are applied. I would be in favour simply to shut up the whines of those who wish to manipulate its use...............
Quotes
"The La7 is flown by lots of newbs and no hopers" Guilty lots of ac are.... and these guys do the same things in those ac too.
"The La7 is spoiler that runs down aircraft so that others can finish them off" Guilty and like wise there are many "fast" ac that can do and do this too....... but we begin now to see the direction of the manipulation.
"The La7 can engage and run away at will" Guilty and in this respect it sits at the top of the unperked pigpile............and really p*&%es experten off that an ac exists that allows the newbs and no hopers to escape their "deserved fate"....... hence if we cant win the game lets change the game.
Cod forgive me but ack-ack is actually correct.
and please dont tell me that it has adequate endurance (for what!)...........or that it performs "quite well" at mid alts (against what?)
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All you people have stated what the La7 can or can't do so many times that you've come to believe it without ever really trying it.
Trust me. If half the people started flying the La7 like I described, it would be perked THE NEXT DAY.
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Originally posted by Tilt
I
Quotes
"
"The La7 is spoiler that runs down aircraft so that others can finish them off"
"The La7 can engage and run away at will" Guilty and in this respect it sits at the top of the unperked pigpile............and really p*&%es experten off that an ac exists that allows the newbs and no hopers to escape their "deserved fate"......
/B]
I believe these two points are the crux of the perk the LA7 mantra.
When I try to "extend" for another B&Z or vulch pass with my *insert favorite aircraft here* I get caught. I don't like that.
And:
I know if that guy had been restricted to a poorer aircraft I would have killed him with my *insert favorite, but slower, aircraft here* and my superior knowledge of ACM. I don't like that.
Turn fighters don't like it because they can't catch it if it won't turn and die to their superior turning plane.
B&Z guys don't like it if their favorite plane can get caught. They prefer to think they should have the fastest moving plane.
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I will stick with the fact "A pilots skill is more important than the plane he flies."
When I was a NewB, almost every 262 I flew was shot down. Lots of perks for other guys. Now that I have some skill, I can be effective in LA5's, c202's, c205's, and P-40's. I fly the c.205 almost exclusively because it is FUN. While I cannot out run many planes, I can out manuever most of them. The real key is to know the aircraft you fly, know its strengths and weaknesses, as well as the strength and weaknesses of your enemy. I know I can outclimb a lot of aircraft, so I use that to my advantge. Nothing brings a smile to my face more than a Temest trying to get away by climbing away from me. What the heck lets perk the c.205 since it can be used to kill the perked Tempest.
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Last tour I was in an FM2 and managed to kill Leviathn in a LA-7.
It was a thick as furball and the BK's were out and raising hell, JG44 was returning the favour. I saw this La7 going vertical and chased him in my little FM2.
His E ran out, got REAL flat and I pummeled him, did a half roll and followed him down. pecking away as we dropped he went boom and that was that. Doobs my XO got an assist.
Now dont get me wrong here. In a one on one I am under no illusion about how long I would last.
Leviathn is a dam fine fighter pilot (20 kills to a sortie at this minute) and it was simple a case of the situation and how I reacted.
The FM2 will roll, turn and loop like mad and its takes a beating
The LA7 has speed, fire power and 8 minutes WEP
Follow the three k's
Know your plane.
Know your enemies plane
Know who's on your six, nine and three (KEEP YOUR SA UP)
Later all
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Originally posted by Krusty
Both. Some have perks applied as a rule (262s, 163s, 152s) because of number of units (and the relative scarcity of the real aircraft). This simulates proportions in the arena comparable to real WW2.
Some have perks due to performance. The spit14 we have is perked because it has a rate of climb and a zoom capability that leave EVERY plane in the game gasping behind it. Spit16 might be more so. SpitXIV is perked for performance reasons (its an uber plane, basically).
Some have perks put on them due to complete de-stabilization of the MA. F4uC comes to mind. The entire arena was mostly c-hogs, and knowing the MA it was probably 95% HO dweebs and cherry pickers. Regardless, the plane was relatively rare (200 tops were made, and used only by a small group to shoot down kamikazes), so a perk was put in place after the fact, due to over use.
Basically, perks balance the gameplay. They can be put on for various reasons.
HTC has said they might revisit the 152 and unperk it, due to piss poor performance at almost every altitude that matters :P (okay, so not their exact words, but you know -- I read between the lines!)
As such, there is nothing that needs balancing in a ta152. The 190D flies better than it so chances are that the arena won't be flooded with it (if unperked). It won't dominate unless super high alts, and then all the enemy has to do is dive to lower alts and it sucks again.
So the perks are a fluid thing. They change with the tide of the MA. This is also evidenced by the ENY value changes recently (spits getting ENY 10, some other minor changes).
Dont know why people think the Spit XVI is gonna be a monster.
It's basically the EXACT same as a 1943 LF IX at 18lbs boost.
At 25lbs boost (which makes it late 1944/early 1945) it supposedly has a climb rate of 5700fpm from 0 to 5000ft, but ONLY from 0-5000ft, and this is WITH WEP (5 mins)
It is still sub 400mph at all alts (straight and level).
Yet this 0-5000ft climb rate is what has Pyro/the community scared and demanding if it got 25lbs boost a perk price, lol.
PATHETIC
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I remember that, mussie. You had some wicked E! :D
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Keep telling yourself that Ack-Ack. Maybe some day it'll come true.
Learn how to fight it and you won't be whining about perking it.
ack-ack