Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: ASTAC on September 29, 2005, 08:28:56 PM
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I used to love America.
Now days I only Love the idea that was The USA.
The USA doesn't exist anymore..not like it was intended to exist anyway.
I HATE the government, BOTH parties and ALL of their elected officials and good ole boy appointees.
So here is my dillema. Being in the US Military, I swore to support and defend the Constitution. Am I not doing my duty by not raising arms against this government?
Or am I treasonous because my dream would be to see it fall and replaced with something else?
I'll be honest. I only serve so that I can feed my family. I've become dependent on the Navy, as MOST of your career people are. Sure I joined at 17 years old with the idea that I was doing something great for myself and my country. But now it's just a job, and so specialized I am that I'm pretty much worthless on the "outside".
What do I do? Do I continue living this lie? Protecting the govt that I hate so much? Carrying out their policies?
The sad thing is..I look out across our oceans and theres just nowhere else to go thats not just as bad or worse than here.
I will say this. We as a country are way too arrogant. One day the Barbarians will be at our gates too...I hate to be here when that happens.
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Quite frankly you need to go talk to some competent help rather than a computer game bbs. That, of course, is assuming your post is serious rather than a troll.
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you could always move to key west. they are sorta their own country. Hmm, what about australia? its nice there.:noid
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Originally posted by Maverick
Quite frankly you need to go talk to some competent help rather than a computer game bbs. That, of course, is assuming your post is serious rather than a troll.
What? So I have mental problems because I hate the government and disagree with all their policies and motives?
See that is part of America's problem. Everybody is so brainwashed to believe that "they" know what is best. Anyone who disagrees is unstable or dangerous to the public.
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Astac, I'm right there with you. But I haven't served at all.
A mere 4 months ago I'd say I was a staunch republican, but every day I'm leaning more towards libertarian.
I'd love to give the government a clean sweap. Kinda like taking it down by reloading windows on your computer.
But unfortunately, it WILL NOT happen unless there is a HUGE push against our civil rights. While we are way past what we should be doing via the Constitution, people are feeble and don't realize this. So unless they cancel the First, or take away the Second, you would be seen as a militant fighting all that is good.
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LOL tell me i'm crazy now.
Soon you will see that overhtrowing your government is not only necesary, it's also a hell of a lot of fun!-Jello Biafra
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someone needs to get you a wamburger. get over it times change. you have 2 chioces: evolve into what the wacky world has become, or live in the past like the hippies. The government is fluffied up and there's not a darn thing anyone can do about it. I would serve your country to feed your family. it's a job you know so stick with it. if you can't take knowing you are fighting for something you hate, get a new job. We are arrogent because we got the bombs. dennis leary will tell you all about it :aok
PS you're right i'm sure George and Abe are in their graves P.O'd at what the USA has become.
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Well it's about time for a revolution old chaps, if you feel this way, lets do something about it, but SHHH they are always watching....like the KGB....:noid
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Just like I was always told as a kid:
It feels like it's going to snow, but it ain't a blizzard yet.
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One of the reasons I got out of the Navy was because I didn't agree with the National foreign policy and I didn't feel it was worth it to leave my family behind as an instrument of that policy.
I still work for the Navy as a civilian and I'm fully aware of my hypocrisy.
But what the hell... it feeds the family.
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Originally posted by Sandman
One of the reasons I got out of the Navy was because I didn't agree with the National foreign policy and I didn't feel it was worth it to leave my family behind as an instrument of that policy.
I still work for the Navy as a civilian and I'm fully aware of my hypocrisy.
But what the hell... it feeds the family.
The diference is I have to swear an oath to keep my job. With the morals I was raised with kinda causes me alot of conflict. Besides the hypocrasy of it.
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You swear an oath to the constitution, not the government right?
I don't know how military beauracracy works, but would it be shooting yourself in the foot to file grievances over this? Over the direction the government is headed?
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Originally posted by ASTAC
The diference is I have to swear an oath to keep my job. With the morals I was raised with kinda causes me alot of conflict. Besides the hypocrasy of it.
Check out U.S. Code, Title 5, 3331. The only difference is the UCMJ.
I too, took an oath.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
You swear an oath to the constitution, not the government right?
I don't know how military beauracracy works, but would it be shooting yourself in the foot to file grievances over this? Over the direction the government is headed?
Yeah, but the military oath also includes "Obey the order of the POTUS"
Thus swearing allegence at least to the executive branch.
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Oh no... you've sworn allegiance to the Commander and Chief.
I'm pretty sure you could tell the Secretary of Labor to piss up a rope and you would be okay within your oath. ;)
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Find a civilian job and get out. That way you can still try to change things by voting and not have to worry about supporting the things you are told to support.
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Horsepucky.
Think about this.. look around you. How many fellow servicemen think like you? How many would bear arms against Americans? How many would 'obey unlawful orders' that violate the constitution?.
You may be the guy that one day saves the lives of a coupla hundered americans because your in a position to do so, just because of the way you think.. because you've learned to see without the government colored filter.
Do you know that on the special forces application there's a particular question that I find a bit bothersome. "Would you confiscate arms from americans if ordered to do so?"
Stick it out, ASTAC. Watch whats going on. Maybe keep tabs on what's going on. You'll know when the time to go is.. but not because your disenchanted with the politcal monkeys or the government alphabet soup agencies. We need Americans in the service.. lots of 'em. Not traitors. Americans. When the time comes, if it comes; folks like you in the military could make a massive difference.
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If I were you astac I would invest in a tin foil hat.
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PS
One day the Barbarians will be at our gates too...I hate to be here when that happens.
Disagree. Think about it. When the 'barbarians' arrive at the Gates, I know exactly where I wanna be. My vote WILL count that day. I suspect you'd be there too.
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IMO you can still serve the people and the Constitution with a clear conscience. And with the nature of your job, you shouldn’t have to cross any personal moral boundaries any time soon, one would hope. And if you do, the people and the Constitution are your final consideration where legal and illegal orders are concerned. The POTUS works for both the same as you.
Even though the government is a distortion of what it claims to be, poltitcs is a WWF wrestling match where issues give way to tag lines and emotion -- the process remains free and there are outlets to work for change within the system. Change will be hard, but not impossible. Perhaps, in the wake of Katrina and Iraq there will be a new awaking of the American attention span. Or, maybe not. The tipping point between a republic and a show government hasn't been crossed yet, and is likely not just around the corner.
Charon
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with hang and charon on this one. We need people of consience in the military..
It is rumored that there was a poll conducted by the (navy?) to it's soldiers asking them if they would fight citizens if guns were banned and the country met armed resitance.
I don't even know if it is true but there is your example of constitution vs orders. We need military people saying no to unconstitutional orders.... more and more crisis will "appear" where the government will claim that the only way to help us is to send in the military against the people... stupid citizens will buy it.
interesting times..
lazs
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Most are living a good life. They have good jobs, drive their suv's, go on vacations, live in their split entry ranches, bbq on the grill on their newly installed patio and eat in their new screen house. Their property value has increased tenfold, they enjoy going out on their new boat, or taking a cruise on their new harley. Maybe go camping in their new rv.
Hardly the making of a revolution..........at this point
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ASTAC,
I'd say get out if it's that painful for you. Leverage your military experience into a good civvy job. While you're at it, enter politics. Start small by joining local councils, school boards, etc., then grow. County, etc. Get active in the local party politics.
Seriously, it sounds like you have serious reservations about what you're doing and with the military actively engaged in combat right now, the last thing you need to do is keep doing what you're doing. Reservations in combat can result in unnecessary deaths and then you'd either feel worse, or be dead and everyone else would feel worse. The paycheck just isn't worth it if you're heart's not in the game IMHO. You can get paid a lot more for doing a less dangerous job somewhere else.
For what it's worth, lots of people feel the same way but everyone has their own reasons for doing what they do. As an example, the recent push to abolish the posse comitatus act is something I hoped I would never see, because it basically says that the fed govt can push federal troops into any state at any time for any reason the govt comes up with. Given the jackbooted nature of the homeland security department that gobbled up FEMA, how long do you think it will take before a real or imagined emergency results in the Army being sent into an area against the wishes of a state?
If I was a state governor and FEMA or homeland security pushed Fed troops into my state, I'd mobilize the state natl guard AGAINST them, and make them fight their way in. It's a clear violation of states rights, and NOBODY can order me to fire on Americans within the borders of the US. That's not a role the US military has ever wanted or should ever have, but guess what - it's already been authorized while everyone was fixated on the hurricanes.
Would I quit NOW? No. Would I disobey an unconstitutional order to invade a state? You bet your bellybutton I would. I hope my superiors feel the same way.
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One day the Barbarians will be at our gates too...I hate to be here when that happens.
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Relax and chill out dude.....After reading your post I have concluded that you are suffering from navytoxosis.
Evolve into something more fun and useful....join the MARINES!
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very well put eagl.
lazs
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I use to think like that,
Then I just remind my self that I was born an American and not born any where else in the world!
Im sure you can find a job that pays good if Navy is on your resume.
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Originally posted by ASTAC
What? So I have mental problems because I hate the government and disagree with all their policies and motives?
See that is part of America's problem. Everybody is so brainwashed to believe that "they" know what is best. Anyone who disagrees is unstable or dangerous to the public.
First off please point out where in my post I said you had "mental problems".
Secondly point out where I said I "knew best" or that anyone else said they knew best.
What I DID say was that you needed to find a far more competent source of information to your situation than a computer game bbs. That information could be job related, career choice related, related to leaving the service if you really can't handle your situation, or perhaps just an extended leave.
The other thing I said was I wasn't sure that this was not a troll and I'm still not sure, that's another problem with using a GAME bbs for discussions.
Again, IF this is a serious situation for you then you need to find COMPETANT help in making what could obviously be a life changing decision. AFIAC this game bbs is not the place to be looking. If advising you to seek more qualified help for a potentially real situation upsets you sorry but I still stand by what I said.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Horsepucky.
Think about this.. look around you. How many fellow servicemen think like you? How many would bear arms against Americans? How many would 'obey unlawful orders' that violate the constitution?.
You may be the guy that one day saves the lives of a coupla hundered americans because your in a position to do so, just because of the way you think.. because you've learned to see without the government colored filter.
Do you know that on the special forces application there's a particular question that I find a bit bothersome. "Would you confiscate arms from americans if ordered to do so?"
Stick it out, ASTAC. Watch whats going on. Maybe keep tabs on what's going on. You'll know when the time to go is.. but not because your disenchanted with the politcal monkeys or the government alphabet soup agencies. We need Americans in the service.. lots of 'em. Not traitors. Americans. When the time comes, if it comes; folks like you in the military could make a massive difference.
Hmmmm..........
I thought that the military, along with local law enforcement, was taking peoples weapons already???
Thought they were doing it in New Orleans?
Perhaps the information I got was incorrect?
Law suite was filed and someone resigned.
The Patriot Act basically set it up so the government can call anyone it wants a terrorist and lock em up without a trial or even having to justify their actions to the people they work for.
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The Patriot Act basically set it up so the government can call anyone it wants a terrorist and lock em up without a trial
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Where do you get your information?
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Do you know that on the special forces application there's a particular question that I find a bit bothersome. "Would you confiscate arms from americans if ordered to do so?"
Just out of curiosity... how do you know that?
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Originally posted by ASTAC
I used to love America.
Now days I only Love the idea that was The USA.
The USA doesn't exist anymore..not like it was intended to exist anyway.
I HATE the government, BOTH parties and ALL of their elected officials and good ole boy appointees.
So here is my dillema. Being in the US Military, I swore to support and defend the Constitution. Am I not doing my duty by not raising arms against this government?
Or am I treasonous because my dream would be to see it fall and replaced with something else?
I'll be honest. I only serve so that I can feed my family. I've become dependent on the Navy, as MOST of your career people are. Sure I joined at 17 years old with the idea that I was doing something great for myself and my country. But now it's just a job, and so specialized I am that I'm pretty much worthless on the "outside".
What do I do? Do I continue living this lie? Protecting the govt that I hate so much? Carrying out their policies?
The sad thing is..I look out across our oceans and theres just nowhere else to go thats not just as bad or worse than here.
I will say this. We as a country are way too arrogant. One day the Barbarians will be at our gates too...I hate to be here when that happens.
I'm with you, govt for the people by the people, politicos are not people like us. They're PC scum, robots who owe thier office to those who donated the most $$.
Look how bloated and disfunctional govt at all levels is. I've been fighting the Franchise tax board for 10 years, they finally sent me the many thousands of dollars they owed me. They had illegally garnished my tax free retirement, it was done electronically triggered by some database somewhere, e-filed the proper forms in court... very neat and clean, but IMPOSSIBLE to find one person responsible for this process who can stop it.
So I continued to live on almost 50% pay, started a business to get by and continued sending faxes, letters and phone calls...
But wait, Arnold gets elected.. as luck has it my moms been a respected hollywood type agent for 30 years, a few phone calls to Arnolds people and 4 weeks later I have a govt hack on the phone, actually fixing this nightmeare. I get a huge check from the State, got back all my $$... thought it was over. Not 2 weeks later, the same franchise tax board sent me a letter letting me know they will be garnishing my wages so I can pay back the $$ they just sent me.
As a cop I loved the rules that let allowed me to stop anyone at anytime, it helps catch dirtbags but those same rules can easily be manipulated to screw people... and now I'm retired, I'm very unesy with the power I used to love... thanks to a total BS trial for manslaughter I was subjected to.
This is what I fought in Saudi for?, I spent 6 years as a cop almost getting myself killed for strangers because I swore an oath to defend a country I believe in... I don't believe any more...
I do still believe the USA is the best place on earth to live as long as you take responsibility for yourself and ignore the Govt as much as possible.
The politicians and those like them have ruined this place, congress is a huge poppy filled toilet that needs to be flushed.
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HELLYA! HELLACIOUSNESS!!!!!
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Stay put ASTAC
Better to know there are people serving that actually think about what they do and sees the bigger picture of things. Too many young patriots is not a good thing in america or anywere else.
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Originally posted by Yeager
The Patriot Act basically set it up so the government can call anyone it wants a terrorist and lock em up without a trial
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Where do you get your information?
From his latest copy of Liberal Drivel Today.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Horsepucky.
Think about this.. look around you. How many fellow servicemen think like you? How many would bear arms against Americans? How many would 'obey unlawful orders' that violate the constitution?.
You may be the guy that one day saves the lives of a coupla hundered americans because your in a position to do so, just because of the way you think.. because you've learned to see without the government colored filter.
Do you know that on the special forces application there's a particular question that I find a bit bothersome. "Would you confiscate arms from americans if ordered to do so?"
Stick it out, ASTAC. Watch whats going on. Maybe keep tabs on what's going on. You'll know when the time to go is.. but not because your disenchanted with the politcal monkeys or the government alphabet soup agencies. We need Americans in the service.. lots of 'em. Not traitors. Americans. When the time comes, if it comes; folks like you in the military could make a massive difference.
Damn if you dont sound like John Wayne there
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"“I, AB, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic"
Wow. I had taken an oath like that I'd more or less feel obligaged to start shooting polititions.
Nobody else. Just the polititions.
And maybe the French:)
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Originally posted by sling322
From his latest copy of Liberal Drivel Today.
Im not a liberal.
but I dont see that as being all that far from accurate.
the Partiot Act is a blight
It gives the government which already has entirely too much power even more of it.
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It gives the government which already has entirely too much power even more of it.
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some of you talk about the fed government like its an alien being.
last time I checked every member of congress and ever member of the senate and the president were elected to office by the people. The patriot act represents the will of the people.
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I don't HATE anything, cept dems :)
as bad as you may think the ole US of A is, we are the best thing going
so love it or leave it bud
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Originally posted by Yeager
The patriot act represents the will of the people.
I highly doubt that. Most of the cattle in this country haven't a clue.
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Originally posted by Yeager
It gives the government which already has entirely too much power even more of it.
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some of you talk about the fed government like its an alien being.
last time I checked every member of congress and ever member of the senate and the president were elected to office by the people. The patriot act represents the will of the people.
this argument has been going around since the beginning of the republic. there has always been a faction that said the public is too stupid to run it's own affairs (this idea was championed by both of the presidents Adams). they feel that we should be governed by the intelligentsia. the other side of the argument was the "well we may be stupid but we will decide what's better for us and not you,you elitist slime" it's first clear champion was Andrew Jackson. I think the problem today is that both parties believe that as a people we can be easily manipulated by emotion and could be coaxed into happily giving up all freedom. both major political parties want to control your every movement and perhaps every thought. they think most of us would prefer this. they may be right.
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Just say all you know to a chinese embassy guy...
You will feel better after.
:p
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Originally posted by Yeager
It gives the government which already has entirely too much power even more of it.
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some of you talk about the fed government like its an alien being.
last time I checked every member of congress and ever member of the senate and the president were elected to office by the people. The patriot act represents the will of the people.
Hmmmmmmmm..............
Sorry I don't agree here. I NEVER wanted the patriot act and I want it removed buried and never brought back.
Will of the people? Hmmmmmmm....
They chose who you will vote for.
They chose who is going to be in an election.
I find, more often then not, that I don't care for either of the people selected by their party to run for an office.
The recent activities =
Patriot Act : violates both the 4th and 5th amendment. READ IT!
A person can be put away without the accusations being examined for accuracy, and can not contact a lawyer or anyone for that matter. Just call em a terrorist. ALL the people that stood up and fought to create this country could and probably would be called terrorist in todays world.
They have also passed a law that violates the 1st amendment. It's called the Campagin Finance Reform ACT.
They have FAR TOO much control over WHO you vote for.
Way too many of the recently passed laws are RIPE for abuse and several already have been abused.
NO I'm not going to find all the incidents of abuse that have been in the news, carefully regulated to the back page. You find em. The information is there.
Like the homeless person they arrested under the patriot act. That person was trying to sleep inside a airport. They could have arrested or run that person off using other laws but they used, or perhaps a better way of putting it they ABUSED the Patriot Act.
I love my nation and the concepts or ideas under which it was founded.
But there are people that appear to be aimming to take all that away. Some claim those people are the politicians. Some claim they are wealthy business persons pulling the strings.
Not sure who or what but I am sure I'm watching my freedom and rights gradually, a little at a time, be taken away.
:lol
Ya Ya, I'll save you the trouble now, let's put in the proper thing here...............
:noid :noid :noid
good smilie Skuzzy
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wrag, go buy some excellent used rifles (harder to trace), some ammunition (thats right, you dont have to sign your name when you buy ammunition) and get some medical supplies and lots of food...(no one cares about that stuff).
Now go into the mountians and live life the way it was supposed to be lived. Off the land, unincumbered by the laws of men.
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Originally posted by Yeager
wrag, go buy some excellent used rifles (harder to trace), some ammunition (thats right, you dont have to sign your name when you buy ammunition) and get some medical supplies and lots of food...(no one cares about that stuff).
Now go into the mountians and live life the way it was supposed to be lived. Off the land, unincumbered by the laws of men.
NO WAY! :furious
Too old for such stuff anyways :lol
I'm gonna keep talkin and keep voting! :lol
It may not do much good, but I still have those rights. And I'm gonna use em :)
Not sure how much longer but......
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Originally posted by Yeager
It gives the government which already has entirely too much power even more of it.
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some of you talk about the fed government like its an alien being.
last time I checked every member of congress and ever member of the senate and the president were elected to office by the people. The patriot act represents the will of the people.
No they were elected by the people who took the time to vote.
Sadly in non presidential races the majority of voters are either staunch republicans or staunch democrats.
If you took a poll of the people that frequent these boards and they were all to answer honestly. I would b willing to bet that less then 1/4 of the people polled bothered to vote in the congrassional/senetorial elections and of the ones that did vote more then 3/4's would be staunch Dems or Reps and only a handful would have no prticular party affiliation.
Point is not enough people that arent diehard party members bother to vote.
Thats why we keep seeing the same loosers holding public office for 20 years.
People just dont want to be bothered with it.
What they dont realise is that if they are against something and dont vote then thats the same as casting a vote for it.
Sad but true
the Patriot act does not represent the will of the people but the will of the people elected to office.
The Iraq war doesnt necessarily reprsent the will of the people but rather the will of the president. Now remember I was/am for the iraq war but while it may represent my will it certainly does not represent the peoples will in any kind of definative way.
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Originally posted by wrag
Hmmmmmmmm..............
Way too many of the recently passed laws are RIPE for abuse and several already have been abused.
FBI Admits Mistakes in Security Wiretaps
By MARK SHERMAN, AP
Patriot Act Critics Troubled by Errors Made During Terrorism Probes
WASHINGTON (Sept. 30) - The FBI says it sometimes gets the wrong number when it intercepts conversations in terrorism investigations, an admission critics say underscores a need to revise wiretap provisions in the Patriot Act.
The FBI would not say how often these mistakes happen. And, though any incriminating evidence mistakenly collected is not legally admissible in a criminal case, there is no way of knowing whether it is used to begin an investigation.
Parts of the Patriot Act, including a section on "roving wiretaps,'' expire in December. Such wiretaps allow the FBI to get permission from a secret federal court to listen in on any phone line or monitor any Internet account that a terrorism suspect may be using, whether or not others who are not suspects also regularly use it.
The bureau's acknowledgment that it makes mistakes in some wiretaps - although not specifically roving wiretaps - came in a recent Justice Department inspector general's report on the FBI's backlog of intercepted but unreviewed foreign-language conversations.
The 38,514 untranslated hours included an undetermined number from what the FBI called "collections of materials from the wrong sources due to technical problems.''
Spokesman Ed Cogswell said that language describes instances in which the tap was placed on a telephone number other than the one authorized by a court.
"That's mainly an instance in which the telephone company hooked us up to the wrong number or a clerical error here gives us the wrong number,'' Cogswell said.
He had no estimate of how often that happens, but said that when it does the FBI is required to inform the secret court that approved the intercept.
The FBI could not say Friday whether people are notified that their conversations were mistakenly intercepted or whether wrongly tapped telephone numbers were deleted from bureau records.
Privacy activists said the FBI's explanation of the mistaken wiretaps was unacceptably vague, and that in an era of cell phones and computers it is easier than ever for the government to access communications from innocent third parties.
"What do you mean you are intercepting the wrong subject? How often does it occur? How long does it go on for?'' said James Dempsey, executive director of the Center for Democracy and Technology.
David Sobel, general counsel of the Electronic Privacy Information Center, said technological advances have made it harder, not easier, to "conduct wiretapping in a surgical way'' because digital communications often carry many conversations. "It's not like the old days when there was one dedicated line between me and you,'' Sobel said.
The FBI has acknowledged errors in the past. An FBI memo from 2000, made public two years later, described similar problems in the use of warrants issued by a court that operates in secret under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. In 2002, an FBI official said the bureau averaged 10 mistakes a year in such cases.
These warrants are among the most powerful tools in the U.S. anti-terrorism arsenal, permitting secret searches and wiretaps for up to one year without ever notifying the target of the investigation.
The court approved 1,754 such warrants in 2004.
The Patriot Act, passed 45 days after the Sept. 11 attacks, gave the government sweeping powers in terrorism investigations, including allowing the use of roving wiretaps. The authority also applies to espionage and other foreign intelligence cases.
The FBI is not supposed to use material it collects either by mistake or from people who happen to use phones that are tapped legitimately, but that requirement doesn't satisfy some lawmakers.
"They have recorded the information, but they're saying, 'Trust us, we won't listen to what we recorded,''' said Rep. Bobby Scott, D-Va. "People ought to be concerned.''
Versions of the Patriot Act renewal that passed the House and Senate during the summer both contain the roving wiretap. It would expire in 10 years under the House-passed bill and four years in the Senate version. Congressional negotiators are expected to hammer out final details of the legislation starting in late October.
The Justice Department fought congressional efforts to require investigators to determine that the target of surveillance actually was using the tapped phone or computer before they listened in. Some lawmakers said such a requirement would reduce the chance that other conversations would be intercepted.
Administration officials argued that safeguards in the law already require the government to discard those conversations. "Such a restriction would make it harder to use multipoint wiretaps in terrorism and espionage investigations than in drug trafficking and other ordinary criminal investigations,'' assistant Attorney General William Moschella wrote Scott.
09-30-05 21:47 EDT