Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Bonzzz on September 30, 2005, 03:47:20 PM
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I may be the only one to ask about this or be interested in this but I have yet to find any sort of online or otherwise simulator that has this aircraft to fly. It may be as big as a B-25 bomber but it was one of the fastest and most maneuverable twin engine fighters of the time. It was as fast and maneuverable as any singe engine fighter of the time and I think it would be a blast to fly.
Thanks for you consideration on this matter.
Bonzzz
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You arent the only one to request it. And you wnt be the last
Its the one real request have. Well that and fixing the dive bombing heavies.
Check the threads out, there are quite a few in your camp
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Well I'm glad I'm not the only one who wants this aircraft. We ought to get a petition going or something. :-) Just cause its not P-51 or Me-109 it doesn't get the recognition I think it deserves. Oh well, what can you do?
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Originally posted by Bonzzz
Just cause its not P-51 or Me-109 it doesn't get the recognition I think it deserves. Oh well, what can you do?
recognition it deserves? it was a very good plane but it did not really have a historical impact like the N.F. Beaufighters, Mosquito's and numerous Luftwaffe types.
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[i}it was a very good plane but it did not really have a historical impact like the N.F. Beaufighters, Mosquito's and numerous Luftwaffe types. [/B]
What sort of "historical impact" are you refering to? Are you talking number of aircraft shot down? OK then, you're probably right, it may not have the numbers like the others but I think that might have to do with when the P-61 entered the war. Those other aircraft had been flying night fighter missions, along with thier day mission counterparts, since the beginning of the war or close to it. The first P-61 unit didn't go into combat for the first time till May '44. Thats alot of catching up to do and by then we had already established arial supremecy in most theaters of war. Its not that the targets weren't out their I'll grant you but I think night time is a much more difficult arena to fly in than broad daylight.
As for performance, it was faster at all altitudes than the Mosquito and could outturn it by a considerable margin. And it left the Mosquito in the dust as for rate of climb. Thats saying quite alot too cause the Mosquito was an incredible aircraft. Heck, it was made of plywood so ofcourse the Mosquito was fast and maneuverable.
The P-61 was also the first fighter to be desined with the onboard radar in mind and it was one of the most advanced systems of the time. When they designed the Widow they were specifically building an aircraft to fly at night. I don't think they knew what sort of true combat machine they were going to have till it was built and in the hands of the pilots. But the time they were figuring it out the war was coming to its conclusion.
OK, lets talk about the statement "theaters of war". As far as my research has shown the P-61 flew in most the major theaters of war. European, Pacific, Medeterranean, China, Burma, and India. It even went on, like the P-51 and the F-4, to fly in Korea for a short time until being replaced by the P-82 Twin Mustang. But thats another war completely.
One other aspect of this whole thing is that as far as I've found only 16 night fighter squadrons were ever equipped with the Widow and those 16 squadrons were spread through all theaters of war. How many other night fighter squadrons were there that never recieved the P-61? As for those squadrons that were and when they went into combat I'd say that they had a huge impact on the war. Not just by shooting down aircraft either. Heck, once the Japanese found out about it and what it could really do, they were terrified of it. They would shift their night intruder missions to different areas they knew weren't protected by the Black Widow. How many lives do you think were saved by just that alone? It was used in the European theater to chase down V-1s along with their night interceptor missions. Towards the end of the war it was flying both day and night missions. It could carry bombs and rockets along with its 4-20mm cannon and 4-.50 cal machine guns when equiped with the top turrent, it could wreak havoc both on the ground and in the air. Its even unofficailly credited with the last arial kill of WWII, without even firing a shot. Unofficially though.
So it may not have the recognition of those other night fighters but I think that if the war continued the P-61 and the men who flew them would have gained a bit more recognition for their efforts and sacrifices.
As for your statement (it did not really have a historical impact) I strongly dissagree. I think it had a huge impact on the war for the short time it was involved. Its just not an area of the war that people know alot about.
Thanks for listening to my ramblings. I mean no offence to anybody that reads this or to the person who responded to my statement. I'm just very passionate about this aircraft and the people who flew them.
Hope to see everybody out there flying and having fun.
Bonzzz
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Originally posted by Bonzzz
As for performance, it was faster at all altitudes than the Mosquito and could outturn it by a considerable margin. And it left the Mosquito in the dust as for rate of climb. Thats saying quite alot too cause the Mosquito was an incredible aircraft. Heck, it was made of plywood so ofcourse the Mosquito was fast and maneuverable.
Bonzzz
reference?
you cannot possibly claim that without a reference to back it up.
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Reference--- Osprey Books---Combat Aircraft---P-61 Black Widow Units of World War 2 - Page 17 - Paragraph One.
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Originally posted by Bonzzz
I'd say that they had a huge impact on the war. Not just by shooting down aircraft either. Heck, once the Japanese found out about it and what it could really do, they were terrified of it.
Maybe... not a huge impact though really?
Originally posted by Bonzzz
It was used in the European theater to chase down V-1s along with their night interceptor missions.
How many V1's were claimed by black widows? i would guess less than 10?
Originally posted by Bonzzz
Its even unofficailly credited with the last arial kill of WWII, without even firing a shot. Unofficially though.
Again, 1 kill, unofficially.
Originally posted by Bonzzz
As for your statement (it did not really have a historical impact) I strongly dissagree. I think it had a huge impact on the war for the short time it was involved. Its just not an area of the war that people know alot about.
Although i respect your view, and you clearly love this a/c very much, i really disagree about its worth to Aces High, i also am sceptical of your claims and its historical impact.
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Playing devils advocate-
I know its not a fair comparison, but "historical impact" can't really be all that important a prerequisite in a game with the Ta-152, Me-163, and Ar-234.
Not trying to start a flame thread or snipe at anyone, but other than showing what a 190 could do if turned into a high altitude hot-rod and where the future of aircraft development would lead, what "historical impact" did those 3 have?
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Originally posted by Bonzzz
Reference--- Osprey Books---Combat Aircraft---P-61 Black Widow Units of World War 2 - Page 17 - Paragraph One.
What Mk Mosquito were they comparing it to? where and when were these performance trials vs a mosquito and what version?
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OK, I can respect your opinion on this also. And no, I don't have all the "official numbers" for this aircraft. Theres not alot out there for it.
Answer me this though. If the P-61 didn't have a very big impact on the war and you don't think it should be in the game, why the heck is the AR-234 in it?
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P-61 Black Widow Specifications
Primary Function: Night Fighter
Contractor: Northrop
Crew: Three: pilot, radar operator, and shooter
Unit Cost: $170,000
Powerplant
Two Pratt & Whitney R-2800-65 Double Wasp engines rated at 2,250 hp each
Dimensions
Length: 49 feet, 7 in
Wingspan: 66 feet
Height: 14 feet, 8 in
Weights
Empty: 20,965 lb
Maximum Takeoff: 34,200 lb
Performance
Speed: 369 mph
Ceiling: 33,100 ft
Range: 1,900 mi (ferry)
Armament
Four 20 mm Hispano M2 cannons, four Browning M2 .50 cal heavy machine guns, 6,400 lb of bombs, rockets
from : http://www.globalaircraft.org/planes/p-61_black_widow.pl
Lets compare it to the Mosquito shall we?
From http://www.home.gil.com.au/~bfillery/mossie06.htm
SOME MAXIMUM SPEEDS:-
360+ mph (579+ km/h) - NF XV.
370 mph (596km/h) at 22,000ft (6700m) - Mk II.
370 mph (596km/h) at 14,000ft (4270m) - NF XII, XIII, XVII, XIX.
378 mph (609km/h) at 13,200ft (4,022m) - FB VI in FS gear.
385 mph (610km/h) at 18,000lb (8,127kg) weight - B IV in MS gear.
379 mph (609km/h) at 6,000ft (1829m) - NF XII, NF30 in MS gear.
394 mph (634km/h) at 13,800ft (4206m) - NF XII, NF30 in FS gear.
350 mph (563km/h) at Sea Level - NF XII, NF30.
424 mph (682km/h) at 26,500ft (8075m) - NF 30 in FS gear.
425 mph (684km/h) at 35,000ft (10,669m) - PR 34.
437 mph (703km/h) at 29,000ft (8839.2m) - Protoype with Merlin 61 engines.
Speeds varied depending on aircraft specification and weight carried.
It seems the Black Widow was slower than ALL Mossie variants apart from the NF.XV, which was a special high alt version. With only five built.
A Mosquito can do aerobatics with one engine feathered, i know, i have seen one doing it. I doubt very very much that a P-61 would get anywhere NEAR a mossie in a maneuver fight.
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Originally posted by Furball
What Mk Mosquito were they comparing it to? where and when were these performance trials vs a mosquito and what version?
I don't have the info on what version of the Mosquito but I'm sure its on record someplace. As for the when and where, July 5th 1944 at either Scorton or Hern, they aren't specific. The contest was between the US 422nd NFS and the No 125 'Newfoundland' Sqn. The 422nd was using a P-61A-5
As for the actual numbers difference between the aircraft. Well, thats just whats on paper and no I've never seen a P-61 fly, not have I seen a Mosquito. As far as I know there is only one P-61 left in the world, not sure about the Mosquitos.
As for the maneuverablility, well I guess that remains to be seen by any of us but let me quote Northrops most experienced test pilot of the time, John w. Myers...
'It was natural that those kids would think that a 35,000-lb aeroplane was not manoeuverable. Also there was great concern about the loss of control in the event of and engine failure, so I had a little "show-off" flight that i had practiced. It took about three minutes. Very short take-off roll, back across the deck at red-line 420mph, loop down to the deck again in an Immelmann. Coming out of the manoeuver, feather one engine on the way down to the deck, two slow rolls off the deck into the dead engine, approach and land short...'
Now ofcourse I've never seen anything like this but I'm willing to take this guys word for it.
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There's also US sources which say the factory boys were on-site to "tweak" the P-61, vs. a bog-standard NF.XIX. The NF.30 went into service about that time, and was optimised for higher altitudes.
Don't have "America's Hundred Thousand" on me currently - still on the road. Good performance data in there.
There's at least 2 extant P-61s I can think of - one is in the USAF Musseum in Dayton, enjoying TLC, and the other is rotting away outside in some museum in China. I believe there's also a restoration underway, North Carolina IIRC.
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The numbers I have say 369mph for a P-61A during the war and 430mph for the post war P-61C.
The wartime P-61 would be a good bit slower than the Mossie by that.
I have read that it was incredibly agile for an aircraft it's size, but keep in mind that it is more than half again as heavy as the Mossie so it may not be much more manueverable.
For the MA I'd like to see the Mosquito NF.Mk XXX, Ju88G-7b or He219A and the P-61A at some point, but as it is night fighters would just be heavy fighters in the MA. The P-61 would see heavy use for ground attack, what, with the 6,400lbs of ordnance.
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To my surprise, America's Hundred Thousand says the P-61 was a lot less quick on the roll than most sources suggest.
As Karnak says, in the MA it would be most useful as ground-attack.
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Even if it was for ground attack I still think it would be an awesome plane to have in there. The He219 would be cool too.
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What is the America's Hundred Thousand?
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Originally posted by Bonzzz
What is the America's Hundred Thousand?
The most definitive book on American aircraft production and types during the second world war. I may be off slightly, but I know it is the best reference for American fighters at least, as I don't have it. I'm more focused on British aircraft.
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Originally posted by Scherf
There's also US sources which say the factory boys were on-site to "tweak" the P-61, vs. a bog-standard NF.XIX. The NF.30 went into service about that time, and was optimised for higher altitudes.
Don't have "America's Hundred Thousand" on me currently - still on the road. Good performance data in there.
There's at least 2 extant P-61s I can think of - one is in the USAF Musseum in Dayton, enjoying TLC, and the other is rotting away outside in some museum in China. I believe there's also a restoration underway, North Carolina IIRC.
There is also one being restored at the MAAM in Reading PA. When attending the airshow there each June you can make a donation to help out the restoration.
http://www.maam.org/p61.html
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Thanks, that's the one I was thinking of.
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Would be a nice ground attacker, but as it's main role was as a radar equipped nightfighter, I doubt we'll see it in the close future.
If we want a quick ground attacker, the A26 has yet to come.
If there is night, and radar equipped aircraft will start showing, things turn different.
Then we have the role for Mossie, Me110, Ju88, and then the Black Widow which would have a secondary role as a ground attacker, and then the Beaufighter with a nice second role in anti-shipping.
So, maybe next wish on the list would be NIGHT and RADAR EQUIPPED AIRCRAFT!!!!!
Gadgets as well such as knickebein, X-Gerat, Oboe and Gee......
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The P-61 is a very cool aircraft. The only purpose built US night
fighter in WW2, and it was good in other roles too. But, if I had
my way, I would like to see one of the up-gunned B-25's or the
A-26 Invader.
Mike
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It would be fun having the gunner position modeled. Having the 4 50cal shooting back at someone on your tail would give the P-61 a lot of respect.
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Originally posted by groundloop
It would be fun having the gunner position modeled. Having the 4 50cal shooting back at someone on your tail would give the P-61 a lot of respect.
Most Definately!!
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IIRC the turret was generally either not there or locked forward and fired by the pilot.
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There was a problem, early on, with the turret causing tail buffeting, but that was corrected. Image what kind of bomber interceptor it would be in AH with a gunner on board.
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Might have been corrected, but IIRC, at least in Europe, when the turret was installed, it was fixed forward.
As long as the bombers are low, it might work. High buffs were too much for the P-61 in the Pacific - had to call in F6Fs to do the job.
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You're right. The problem was corrected in the "C" model, but only 41 were built before the end of the war.
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Originally posted by groundloop
You're right. The problem was corrected in the "C" model, but only 41 were built before the end of the war.
Yea and the C model never saw combat in WW2. The war ended before it could be put into full production.
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Oh well, a black widow would be sweet to fly, beets flying a boston!
and they created 706 P-61s by the end of the war and it has radar! NOW WHO WOULDNT LIKE THAT???
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There is a flight model of it out for Flight Simulator. It is one of those try for a week then buy downloads.