Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: discod on September 21, 2001, 02:14:00 PM
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Everyone seems to agree that the terrorist actions were terrible and deserve justice. But there seems to be a lot of wishy-washyness in the country these days about what and how we should bring justice.
It got me to thinking that maybe it's been so long since America has fought a war to defend our own freedom that people have forgotton what war is.
Americans are used to being the "policemen" of the world, the "good guys". We are used to watching our armed forces on CNN help some small country somewhere on the other side of the planet and we cheer for our troops and then change the chanel and watch sitcoms.
I think most Americans have forgotton what a "war" is, so let me remind you "WAR IS HELL"
War is not:
- "Tolerance"
- "Let's negotiate and hope nobody gets hurt"
- "Let's reason with the enemy and send them some money"
- "Let's drop a bomb or two on them and then run before anyone gets hurt"
- "Let's not squash the enemy because that would be mean"
I'll say it again... WAR IS HELL!!
If we are going to "war" on terrorisim then people need to wake up and realize that it's not going to be pretty, we are not going to look like the "good guy" all the time. We are not going to enjoy the same easy lifestyle we have during peacetime. We are going to be at risk, people will get hurt, we will do some terrible things to our enemies.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think this country has made an official declaration of WAR since WWII. War is a committment to practically stop at nothing to defeat the enemy.
My fear is that we as Americans are all pretty pissed off at the terrorists and we want to kick thier butts but...are we really ready to go to war? If we do then we need to stand behind our country and support it 100%. One of the worst things for a country is to go into a war half heartedly and with so-so support from it's citizens.
Once we make the committment we have to stand by it and see it through. And it's not going to be easy or pretty or quick. If we become a divided nation over this issue then we will loose. It would be like a boxer going into a match and only using one hand against an opponent with 2.
One last thought. I beleive that Terrorists are as big or bigger of a threat to our way of life as any other enemy we have ever faced. To illustrate the power of terrorisim consider this...
What would happen to our country if on one day there were just 50 simultaneous bombings of public places (schools, malls, footbal games, etc) in every single state in the United States? It only takes 50 terroists to pull it off and our leaders know that those sort of attacks are a very real threat. The amount of chaos, panic and economic disturbence of this kind of attack could cause is scary to think about.
We need to go to war to defeat this enemy, and I have confidence that our country will fight this war in very non-conventional ways and be very smart about it. Like the Doolittle raid in WWII, most Americans will not even know about many events of this WAR until they have long passed.
Your family and friends are at greater risk from this enemy than any other we have encountered. They have already said that they don't care if they are school children or pregnant mothers, they will kill any of us!
We must stop this enemy before they get too strong.
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Read up on Colombian history. Thats what will happen if decisive measures are not taken. NOW.
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"I say to the House as I said to ministers who have joined this government, I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears, and sweat. We have before us an ordeal of the most grievous kind. We have before us many, many months of struggle and suffering.
You ask, what is our policy? I say it is to wage war by land, sea, and air. War with all our might and with all the strength God has given us, and to wage war against a monstrous tyranny never surpassed in the dark and lamentable catalogue of human crime. That is our policy.
You ask, what is our aim? I can answer in one word. It is victory. Victory at all costs - Victory in spite of all terrors - Victory, however long and hard the road may be, for without victory there is no survival." - May 13, 1940, British Prime Minister Winston Churchill
Like Yogi says: "It's Deja Vu all over again."
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Ahh, Churchill,....now there was a man who did not mince words. Got goosebumps reading that Toad.
Amazing how well it fits today.
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Our first test as a nation was to heed the call to "hang tough" in the stock market....
Hope we do better on the second test.
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As I understand it, I think Churchill had a much easier diplomatic task. The sides were for the most part clearly divided and the economy wasn't as intertwined then as it is now between countries.
I believe that the task before Bush is more difficult than anything any of us have ever imagined. He needs to demonstrate U.S. resolve without sacrificing our important alliances in our zeal to obtain justice.
A war on terrorism is one thing. A third world war is quite another.
Bush has drawn the line in the sand quite clearly, and it's what the nation and the world needs to hear, but diplomacy still continues.
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This is the third world war, I hate to tell you. It is global in extent, and in particpating nations.
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About a week after I arrived at that other war, a solider showed me a photograph. It was a special forces Sergeant posing with one foot on top of a pile of headless corpses's. He had one of those shorty M-16 in one hand, and the heads in the other. He was smiling from ear to ear, and looked like an elephant hunter posing with his trophy.
I was a teenager at the time, so I found this photo very, shocking. Looking back on it my buddy did me a favor showing me that picture. Any allusions I had about the "glories" of war went right out the window. It proved to be a good preparation for the year that lay ahead of me.
What they are digging out of the rubble in New York right now is every bit as bad. For obvious reasons they are not showing us this on T.V. How ever, we can imagine it. And it should serve to prepare us for what is to come. War is a messy, ugly, process. But it is just a process. Americans have been through it before. And though we cant go through it with out getting dirty, we will get through it. And we will prevail.
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Originally posted by easymo:
What they are digging out of the rubble in New York right now is every bit as bad. For obvious reasons they are not showing us this on T.V. How ever, we can imagine it. And it should serve to prepare us for what is to come.
Sometimes I wonder if, in some respectful way to those left behind, if showing more of the carnage this terrorist act has created, wouldn't steel those that are wishy washy in their support of this country and the upcoming conflict..
You know they, foreign journalist, will be showing every bloody example of our retribution in an attempt to split this country on its resolve..
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Good point eagler.
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This may be a tad off topic, but does anyone remember the space shuttle doing earth mapping here about a year ago or so?
If my memory serves me correctly (often it doesn't) they were going to be able to map the earth down to the foxhole with the information they were gathering. They were not going to make the maps public, instead, use them for military purposes.
Seems that we might have a better idea of what is going on over there than what is being publicized. I think with that sort of infortmation, fighting a ground war may be a bit easier. I don't believe much about what is being publicized about our military and their actions these days. I don't honestly believe they would be making public all of their plans and actions, especially in light of who our enemy is.
Back on topic, war is an ugly thing, but something tells me that we are more advantaged than what the general public is aware. Maybe I'm wrong.
[ 09-21-2001: Message edited by: Greese ]
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The gov is being alot more "hush" than it was in the gulf and such.
I still remember seeing reporters in Somolia w/friggen spot lights on the SEALS as the swam to shore. THAT was one of the most sickening and stupid moments of the national press I have ever seen. I understand the press isnt being allowed to go w/our forces this time...prob due to thier handsomehunk actions earlier.
xBAT
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Press coverage of the Gulf War was only what the gov wanted to show. They learned a lesson in Viet Nam.
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A friend once told me a story about newsweenies.
His unit was drawing sniper fire, when a this guy stuck a mic in his face and ask how he felt about what was happening. Understandably my friend did not appreciate extra attention being drawn to his position. Resting the barrel of his M-14 on top of the guys foot. My friend replied. I feel like you had better get away from me.
This is a procedure I recommend
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I love this country. I support this country. I stand behind it and hope fervently for justice. I am not "wishy-washy" - I am firm in resolve. Firm in my resolve that I will NOT support a war and will say anything I can to try to stay it. In the end it will do no good. When we finally enter whatever conflict this is to be, I pray that those of who say that we can swiftly deliver justice and not cause an explosion are correct. I pray that we can understand that we are not moving toward resolution, but destruction, and that we can find an answer.
I do love this country, but I do not claim exclusive loyalty to it. I feel a special attachment to it, but that doesn't change a fundamental fact: my "people" are not Americans, but simply people, wherever they may be.
It may be that it is too late to stop THIS war, but that is nothing but our own doing. Not "them," not "us," all of us. And to think that we are now in a war (something that we should of done long ago, you say - why? War should never be done) through no evil but that of the terrorists is simply blind reasoning and arrogance.
There are far greater causes than the United States. We are not a nation of God, but a nation of people. Afghanistan is a nation of people. Earth is a world of people. We are different, but on that fundamental, very important level we are the same, and war and violence deny that unity.
I'm sorry, but this is not about me thinking a war is tolerance. This is not about me thinking that war is any of what you said, discod. This is about me absolutely denying war and what it means. Justice is possible without war, but we have never found a way to make it work for us. And because of that we have grown cynical. Listen to yourselves. "Violence is the only language they understand," you say. Well it's too late now perhaps you are right. But who is to blame for that? Who is really to blame?
I openly and utterly deny all forms of violence and military conflict. That is what I stand against, and what I stand here for. Not the United States. Not for any government on Earth. There is no wishy-washiness here. Is your question answered?
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but , ispar....who will save you from the bad guys?
ok guys , lets all hold hands and sing hare krishina....la la na na la la na na
you too binladen, join in
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Is it true that ispar means camel dung in Arabic?
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Ispar; I find it odd that someone with such strong antiwar sentiments would engage in an activity (even though only a game) thats purpose is to recreate WWII. How do you reconcile the two?
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ispar, ispar, ispar .... I think you should volunteer for U.S. Ambassador to Afghanistan and discuss your point of view with those nice people I see spitting, ripping & burning the American flag in the streets there. I'm sure they'd understand you perfectly.. Well at least it'd make for about 90 seconds of interesting television.
Do you pet rabid dogs too?
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Sleep well tonight, Ispar.
Far, far better men than yourself are exerting themselves to make and keep you free and unharmed in your bed.
Enjoy the gift of their sacrifice without guilt. They give it to you without being asked to do so.
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Gents.,
I have one possible observation to make regarding Ispar's post. There have been many men, and I do mean MEN, who rejected war and fighting. They are generally from the Quaker faith. I respect these men as they did not shirk duty in the military during warfare. They often were medics and displayed some of the highest levels of courage ever witnessed.
Having said that, if Ispar is saying he doesn't like war and fighting on those grounds I respect him. I also think he would be willing to serve in a non combat role such as medic.
If, on the other hand Ispar is simply shirking his responsibility to a free society by preserving and supporting it I think he is beneath contempt. No man, or woman, that enjoys the fruits of a free society should hold themselves above serving it and keeping it safe. If you cannot see that then you are seriously deficient in the understanding of responsibility and citizenship.
In simple terms, when faced with an adversary that is bent on your destruction for their own reasons and is not going to listen to anything but your death rattle, your only option is to fight if you want to live. The same goes for the safety and lives of your family. You can either live as men or die like animals led to slaughter.
A free society such as ours carries the highest price for maintaining it. Others will try to take it away and only your willingness to stand and fight will see it maintained in the future.
Mav
[ 09-22-2001: Message edited by: Maverick ]
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Camel dung made it obvious, in my MTV thread, that his problem was based more on a lack of balls, then any love for humanity. This renders his opinion of anything useless.
Maybe a gut check is in order for the rest of us.
During desert storm, the Israelis did one of the most amazing things I have witnessed in my life. They ALLOWED themselves to be bombed without responding. This meant investing there total faith in us, and our ISLAMIC allies. Now that we know what it feels like to bombed. It is even harder to imagine the kind of discipline, and guts those people have. I hope, and belive, that we can live up to their standard.
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You guys need to get over yourselves.
Ispar... stand by your beliefs. Freedom of thought is also what this country is about.
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To what Eagler said, sometimes I think the media in this country treat me like a kid. Like they need to "protect" me by not showing things that are very terrible to see. Some time last week I heard a bit on the radio where they were talking about a local TV channel in New York showing people jumping from the WTC building and basically asking them to "justify" showing the pictures. The lady from the TV station said something to the effect that the initial decision was not even made, since the footage was coming in so fast in real-time. After that, they only showed a single shot one or two times 'at appropriate moments'.
Then I flip past Univision on cable and I kid you not, they had one segment where they showed between 5 and 10 different people plunging all the way to the bottom.
Why does the American media think they need to shelter it's citizens? I wonder how the world's media covered this part of the story? Yes, it's shocking to watch, it's horrible, and to tell you the truth watching 10 different shots was a little much, but in this case I don't think it's "sensationalism" to cover the whole story. This toejam really happened, it was not a movie. Sensationalistic journalism for the sake of ratings is one thing, but all I need is a few non-candy-coated "reminders" of what is *really* going on down there.
One of the worst things that can happen now is for resolve to dwindle as time passes, especially if certain things are kept top secret for 20 years. I keep hearing how some Special Ops missions are never revealed, even in success. I hope we can all keep the same resolve we have now over the next 5 years.
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I think it was on the Discovery Channel or possibly TLC that I saw a show about modern special forces and covert ops.
They interviewed a General and I can't recall his name, but he questioned the use of covert ops at all against a country we are not at war with. In his opinion, it made little sense to send our troops into an action if the government didn't feel strongly enough about it that they needed to maintain deniability for political reasons.
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Maverick, you hit the nail there. It is difficult to take this stance here, but it is what I believe. And yes, I would willingly do whatever I can to help alleviate suffering and war. I do not shirk responsibility, and I am not a coward. Being opposed to all war is not automatically inclusive of the two above. And I am seriously considering service in the American Friends Service Committee or Peace Corps when the time comes - a field role. I do feel a definite responsibility to help in any way I can, without supporting a war.
easymo, it is so easy for you to make these character judgements. You have never met me. You clearly do not understand my position. I am totally opposed to war. But that does not mean that in the event of a war I am not willing to do whatever I can to alleviate the suffering and help rebuild the lives of those affected by it. That includes being in the line of fire. It is not solely my life that is in danger, and my responsibility as a person demands I do whatever I can to help those others.
Iron, as to your question... military history fascinates me. The only way to prevent it in the future is to understand the past. I love WWII aircraft.
Additionally, there's something about violence and the human psyche. It gives us a certain thrill. It's fun! I find it fun - don't you? I enjoy flight sims, I enjoy first-person shooters, I enjoy strategy games, and so on. Most all of the games I like contain violence in some form or other.
However, I make a definite distinction between games and real life. Games are most definitely not anything like the real thing. They are fun, and there are no consequences. People are not getting killed. Nothing is getting killed. No one is starving, no one has to endure racism, no one has to live under an oppressive government like the Teliban. There is a strong distinction between games and reality. Same goes for action movies. Clear?
Thanks Sandman :).
S!
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Ispar; I don't think you understand your basic nature. If/when the ship hits the sand I think you may find that you are a closet warrior.
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Originally posted by AKIron:
Ispar; I don't think you understand your basic nature. If/when the ship hits the sand I think you may find that you are a closet warrior.
No, I think you don't understand me. I know and understand human nature when it comes to this. I understand the want to fight, because I feel it all the time. Despite this, I believe that to do so is not the correct choice, except in personal self-defense when there is absolutely no other option (which is why I have mixed feelings about this. I know that a war is inevitable here, and that we may have no choice. But fighting will do us no more good than not fighting. It's a catch 22, and I would hate to be in Bush's position).
One of the reasons I oppose war and will refuse to participate is not because I cannot kill another human being, but because I can. That scares me.
[ 09-22-2001: Message edited by: ispar ]
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of course we're ready for a war, americans love war. the ones who want it the most are the ones with the big ominous statements and scaaaaary warnings.
instead of being coy and saying "well i sure don't hope we have a war, but if we do we're gonna kick soma bellybutton god bless em"
just say what you mean "yeah, my life is kinda boring and a war sure would break the monotony..."
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Camel dung. I have seen intellectual gymnastics like yours before. Anything to stay out of the fight.
FWIW. In that old war, the consciences objectors that served as medics were my brothers.
The men that went to jail for their beliefs have my respect.
The ones that split for Canada, and elsewhere, by definition ran away. They are cowards.
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Originally posted by easymo:
[QB]Camel dung. I have seen intellectual gymnastics like yours before. Anything to stay out of the fight.
[QB]
:rolleyes: Well, since you seem to understand exactly where my heart and mind lie, I won't make anymore attempts to break your delusions. Of COURSE your brothers were conscientious objectors - but someone like me? nah. No, I don't give one good whoopee for my fellow man. As long as I'm alive, no one else matters. I'm the important one here. :rolleyes:
Easymo, your inability to seperate a lack of nationalism from cowardice is pathetic. If you need to put someone below you so badly, than do so. Because in the end only one person is responsible for me, and only one person really knows what is in my heart, and that is ME.
I fear not being killed, but killing. If you don't believe me, fine. But I find it hard to believe that most here will put much stock in the "perception" you have shown. Kindly don't slander me unless you can say that you have met me and gotten to know me well enough to understand my stand. Ironically, you are showing exactly what has caused all of this to begin with - a total lack of understanding and empathy.
So, if this does explode, and goes on for a little while, expect to see me doing whatever I can to help in a civilian role to help those in the line of fire. Why don't you join up? If in a couple years I'm doing my rounds on an Afghani battlefield and happen to see you, I'd be happy to patch you up. Cause you're human too.