Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: v1st on October 02, 2005, 11:56:42 AM
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I am looking for a new joy stick to replace my force feed back. money isn't a problem just not knowing what to buy is. i have ch pro pedals. if that means anything. please help
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What are you looking for?
Force Feedback or not?
HOTAS (hands on throttle and stick = separate throttle and stick)?
Something like a MS Sidewinder Precission Pro?
Saitek X52 has gotten alot of good comments, one of the cheapest HOTAS systems, some like it alot and there are some (quite few) who don't like it at all.
I am using a HOTAS Cougar. Quite a bit more expensive but you said money is not an issue.
Then there is CH setup, HOTAS where you buy a Pro Throttle and a stick of your choice, usually Combatstick.
As for non HOTAS systems, The Sidewinder is a good choice if you can find one on ebay. Cyborg EVO I don't know much about but some like it I know.
Let me know what exactly you are looking for.
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CH
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MSS :aok
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TM
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A vote for the Saitek series - recently I sent my X-45 into be fixed because the upper left view hat on the Joystick would stick Once in a while. THis was the only problem that I'd had with it in over a year and a half of continious use.
Saitek did not fix the problem - they sent me a brand new stick! (stick and throttle) Talk about great service - turn around time was just over a week. Since I had just bought a re-furbished one to use while this one was in the shop, I'm now set up for quite awhile - the RF one works like new, and I have a brand new one waiting for if/when the RF one starts to wear out.
I know some people don't like the Saitek, but to me it's the best buy out there for a HOTAS set-up, and they have great customer service. I use mine with CH Pro rudder pedals. I would be great if Saitek made a set of rudder pedals to go with their sticks.....
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The Saitek cust service is outstanding, they've sent me two free replacement parts no questions asked.
Saved me from having to go to Frys and unscrew said part from a demo.
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Originally posted by Roscoroo
CH
I agree,
i crashed 2 computer desks and 2-3 keybords in last 2 years with my "lumberjack" hands but CHfightersick still works fine
Viva CH !:)
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Originally posted by x0847Marine
The Saitek cust service is outstanding, they've sent me two free replacement parts no questions asked.
Thats because they know their product is a piece of junk that is not worth the box they package it in.
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Originally posted by Furball
Thats because they know their product is a piece of junk that is not worth the box they package it in.
Absolutely! 4 X-45's in 2 years. If you ever open one up it'll scare you. Looks like a 5 yr old built it.:furious
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Buying anything but CH is wasting money that could be saved until you can afford CH.
Yes CH is expensive. Yes it is worth it.
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My CH USB Pro Pedals spiked right out of the box. Support sucks if you are in Europe. They just tell me to "buy new pots". That was when the pedals were 2 weeks old.
So basicly I have to use a pair of brand new pedals that spike untill I can get new pots (which I have to pay for).
I've heard alot of good things about CH support, non of it is true for me, maybe it is because I am in Europe.
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Willbus I don't know if it will change anything but you can try the pedal pluged throught a powered hub.
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Rgr don't think it will help...
The problem lies in the pot as far as I can see.
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I use a Cougar HOTAS and wouldn't trade it for any other stick out there. The Cougar out of the box is not as good as it could be for the price, but it has the potential to be the ultimate set-up.
If you don't trust customer service and prefer to do your own repairs then this stick is for you. There is a strong community out there for the Cougar and modification packages (enhanced gimbals, optical pots, etc.) that you can purchase in increments.
Both throttle and stick are metal, including all the buttons, and should last a life time (even if TM ceased to exist you could go to a machine shop and have the part manufactured). I also like that my old gameport rudder pedals hook-up through the stick and become USB avoiding alot of the old spiking problems. :aok
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if i do pick ch is there stick that is better for this game. i only fly aces so just need it for here.
I didn't mention it before but looking for a stick because of wife ack. she got mad i was flying and cut my usb cable. i got them spliced now but don't know how long it going to last.
yes she decided wrong thing to do i won't mention what i did.:)
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Originally posted by Grits
Buying anything but CH is wasting money that could be saved until you can afford CH.
Yes CH is expensive. Yes it is worth it.
What he said, Although I do have a Cougar I will sell you:D
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Originally posted by Wilbus
So basicly I have to use a pair of brand new pedals that spike untill I can get new pots (which I have to pay for).
FYI, Cubpilot on Cougar World has info on his web site to convert the USB pedals to a JS connection so they can be ran into the Cougar. I use 10 year old CH pedals that spike like a railroad crew. The pedals work much better when they are controled by the Cougar.
Gunner
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I've never had a single prob with my setup. Calibration is a snap and cleaning only takes one wet-wipe & a tissue.
(http://members.aye.net/~gharris/blog/atari-10in1.jpg)
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I have used CH Combatstick, throttle & pedals,in both AW in the 90's & USB now & love the setup. The control manager gives you great variability in hat & button programming. It's the only thing that lets a dweeb like me ever get the occassional kill.
-MI- {Shillelagh}
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As far as I have been able to tell the negitive comments about Saitek are greatly exagerated.
I have a Cyborg 3d gold that I have used for around 2 years and still works perfecty and I have it hooked up on my wifes/HTRmama's comp now that I have my X52.
I have had my X52 sience they came out and have had no problems with it at all other than you gotta keep the shaft real clean so it don't stick but thats not a big deal. the only other problem is that I have used them both so much that the silver paint is wearing off where my hands make contact. :)
Though it took me about a month to really get used to the X52. It's real touchy (guessing that has something to do with the optical stick) so you need a steady hand and be smooth with your actions (I do best after a drink) don't yank this thing, it will do exactly what your hand tells it to do and it does have a long throw on it and some people seem to have a problem with this.
So far I feel it was woth the $140 I spent but you may not, my brothers wife got him one for christmas and he don't like it at all so I use it when I take my comp to his house to play AH togeather.
He prefers his Thrustmaster fox 2 pro. It looks kinda cheep and only costs $30 but he has had it for a year and still works great though it dosn't have enough buttons for my taste I would recomend it for the price if you want a cheep stick but what ever you do STAY AWAY FROM LOGITEC!!!!!!! BAD!!! VERRRRRY BAD STICK!!! My rudder died in 2 months... thats when I got the cyborg.
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Thanks GunnrCAF but that won't help against the spiking either, it would help if they were already gameport pedals but these ones spike decpite being USB.
I will just need to get a new pot.
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Originally posted by Flayed1
As far as I have been able to tell the negitive comments about Saitek are greatly exagerated.
Learn you will young Jedi:eek:
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Originally posted by Bear76
Learn you will young Jedi:eek:
Well around 3 years flying with Saitek and not problem 1. So great jedi master you must not have the force flowing through you as strongly as you think, or you are on the dark side.
I would say the X52 is a significant upgrade from the 45.... but like I said thats just my opinnion....
BTW what was the date the X52 came out on the store shelvs anyway I cant remember. I went to buy one and they had to order one in because they were all sold out.... :) Seriouse question.
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Have ran an X52 since they came out previously had an X45 for a couple of years. Both with CH propedals.
The X52 incurred a large dead band on the x/y axis and the throttle rotary mouse wheel was lost in one direction. Saitek fixed both and since then its been OK.
I have stiffened the JS spring a bit to give more feel. (which is wierd because the X45 always felt too stiff)
It was not until I loaded XP that AH could recognise all the rotaries.
CH & TM service in the UK is really only suited for DIY enthusiasts
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1) Have a Saitek X-52. Don't care to fly it, but highly reliable.
2) Have a Saitek EVO. Reliable, although I broke the trigger mechanism.
3) Have two LogiCRAP sticks. Don't ask.:furious
4) Currently using a Thrustmaster Top Gun Fox 2 Pro I've had for a year. Highly reliable, no mechanical problems.
PS: LogiCRAP headsets are not much better, IMO.
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OK, don't seam to be able to get a "what I want" kind of response so will just post some of my experiences.
The first stick I ever owned was a CH Flight Stick (not pro, the normal one with two buttons). I used it for Red Baron and Aces Over Europe and the likes. It started spiking quite fast (which gives me another "bad experience" with CH).
After that I had a Saitek Cyborg 3D. It started spiking real fast, twist became lose and the stick was taken out of use.
I then found the Holy Grale amongst joysticks (bellow 200 dollars atleast and in some cases even against the 200+ dollar stick), I bought it in a store, the last one they had. It was a gameport stick but came with a USB converter, the stick was called "Microsoft Sidewinder Precission Pro 1". Now I am not the greatest fan of MS products or MS at all (stupid Xbox POS idea) but this is one product that beats every other competitor when it comes to "bang for buck". I could've easily payed 100 dollars and still considered it a good "bang for buck".
The Joystick never ever spiked, always precise, it really lived up to its name. I used it for well over 5 years (6 or 7 even) untill the hat finally became sticky and hard to use (to check 6 specially).
I checked AH time online (not counting Warbirds, Dawn of Aces, Fighter Ops and, Warbirds and Dawn of Aces H2H). The time I used that joystick was well above 2000 (!!!!!!) hours. Now, imagine how many times you spin a hat around in 2000 hours of fighting and you will easily see why the hat became a bit sticky and worn out.
My Brother is using the same joystick, bought a while after I did and used quite a bit less but it too is still alive after more then 5 years now. (some of those years in storage).
This is IMO THE best stick ever created and I know most (although not all) people will agree with me. I think Ghosth amongst others is still using it and love it. Not to mention that you can afford 5-10 of these compared to one CH or TM HOTAS.
I then used a Logitech (Logicrap) Wireless stick. The Hat broke down after a month so I got a new one, that hat was different and worked nicely (obviously they had discovered a design flaw) but I didn't like the fact that it went down in to "save mode" after 2 minutes of inactivity, this caused the stick to become uncalibirated after some "auto pilot climbouts" which got me killed.
After that I used a TM Top Gun Fox 2 Pro (I think) which worked well although I never grew to like it as I did the Sidewinder.
I now use a TM HOTAS Cougar and like it ALOT even though I have not modded it with any expensive 3:d party mods (not needed although many people say it is great to do so, of course, one needs another 400+ dollars to do so).
What I like most about the Cougar is all the buttons, this is the first stick that has allowed me to totally get rid of the keyboard (cept for typing) which means I can give full attention to the fight.
I also used a Saitek X36 for a while but calibiration problems and the fact that it was too big for me forced me to hand it back after 2 weeks.
If I ever get the chance I really wanna try the X52.
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Just avoid Gravis. They have crappy centering and spike like hell. Then just avoid Logitech for obvious reasons (they're not even suited to be a paperweight).
Aside from that I can't help on Saitek or TM or CH -- never had any. This MS Sidewinder gameport works for me. I just wish it had more buttons on it
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I have used CH sticks for the past 15 years of on-line flying and love them. I've owned many (a couple at home, a couple at work, a couple bought by folks I gamed with) and have had good reliability. The first one I bought for AW in the early 90's and used it for about 10 years without trouble. I replaced it with a USB version. I specifically use the CH Flightstick -- don't know if that has any bearing on my results with reliability.
I've also used CH pedals for the past 5-10 years with the same good results. Also, like with the sticks, I've recommended them to others who have purchased them and had good results.
I like the reliability and also the flight feel of the CH sticks and pedals.
I've never had any spiking problems except those caused by Windows or game-port-card drivers, which I could tell was not the stick's fault by other testing.
I did once have one of my CH sticks cease to function after some years of use and then some years of sitting in the equipment pile in the closet (my time between Air Warrior and Aces High). The computer stopped recognizing it when plugged into the USB port -- but that is one out of about six that I've purchased and used at home and for various folks at work over many years of use.
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Wilbus, a few things.
1. Are you sure the spiking is the pedals and not Windows, the driver Windows is using, or the calibration? Can you give more details on what you mean by "spiking"? I've noted that, if I calibrate the pedals in Windows, the result is pedals that are almost binary in effect (i.e., they go from zero to full without much in between). If I leave them uncalibrated in Windows, they work fine in AH.
2. Just in case you got a crappy tech support person, did you ask to speak to the person's manager and explain to the manager that (1) the pedals are only 2 weeks old and thus should be in warranty and (2) that a user replacing potentiometers inside the device is an unworkable service solution not only due to that being outside the scope of what most users can do but also due to the fact that opening up the device might void the warranty?
3. I have a pair of CH Pro Pedals that work with a game port. I don't use them anymore because all the computers I play on have USB now. They are just sitting around for spare parts, but I've had my current CH Pro USB Pedals for years of use with no trouble. If you get no traction with 1 or 2 above, e-mail me your name and address, and I will ship to you my spare pedals. You can take the guts out and put it into your USB pedals. My e-mail address is "brooke at electraforge.com".
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Originally posted by Flayed1
I would say the X52 is a significant upgrade from the 45.... but like I said thats just my opinnion....
Well it had to be an improvement. The X45 was poorly made. If you play alot like I do and apparently you don't, they will break(X45). Can't speak on the X52. Never used it. I went CH and never looked back.
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Ten years ago I got my first real joystick. I won a TM FLCS/TQS on the AW boards on Delphi. At the time it was about a $300 stick/throttle. It served me well and is still in use on my kids PC. I now have a TM Cougar. Two sticks in 10 years, and I fly at least one night or more a week for the past 10 years. Can anyone beat that? :)
Gunner
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I have used a variety of sticks, thrustmaster (lasted 2 weeks), logitech(1-day blunders), gravis firebird(best stick for bombing in AW), saitek x45 (took it back because throttle was too small for my hand), MS PP, MS PP2, MS FF2, but none of them can touch my 10 year old CH rig for reliability and 'feel'.
That big pricetag is easily offset by the quality of CH products when my rig does bite the dust i will replace it with a CH USB rig
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Originally posted by Bear76
Well it had to be an improvement. The X45 was poorly made. If you play alot like I do and apparently you don't, they will break(X45). Can't speak on the X52. Never used it. I went CH and never looked back.
LOL boy you got that wrong... The part about me not playing alot lol I'm a stay at home dad and I spend wayyyyyy too much time flying. Some times all day for 3 or more days in a row :) Take today for example started flying at noon and was flying till 9pm similar to yesterday.:D Wife tends to get cranky about the house not being clean for some reason.:confused: But I stopped smoking to play this game so she don't say to much.
Like I said the only thing wrong with my X52 after many many hours of play is smooth spots where my hands have rubbed the paint off. I don't know Y they just don't incorperate the silver color directly into the plastic.
Oh and same here I can only speek for my Cyborg 3D gold and the X52 as I have never had an X45 it seemed a little on the cheep side as far as quality when I was looking at buying one lucky I waited as this is not the case with the 52.
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i ordered a very barely used Sidewinder PP2 off of ebay on sunday - cost me £39 it is boxed as new. The person only paid £39.99 new when they got it from the store so havent really made a loss.
I have seen these joysticks for sale for £150.00 brand new on amazon.
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I wouldn't recommend Cougar to someone not able to do maintenance by himself. The quality seems to be rather varying as some people have been able to use them even a year without problems (or more?!?) and I know a guy who has his fourth Cougar and it is already broken, too. Yeah, its all metal, but the mechanism is not very robust and the springs are too stiff although they are pretty easy to loosen. OTOH it has many cool hi-tech mods available but they are rather expensive.
http://cougar.frugalsworld.com/
I'd recommend buying CH. Only annoying feature I have noticed in it is that the stick is not getting stiffer at its extremes but near the middle after which it gradually loosens. Maybe it could be modded but that could make its lifespan shorter because its all plastic mechanism prolly couldn't handle the strain.
PS. I had a lot of mechanical problems with my Cougar but not anymore, but its really not a "TM Cougar" anymore as only things left from original are the handle and the circuit board...
http://www.savanne.org/kuvat/HypCoug1_resize.jpg
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Hey Brooke, I am not sure it is in the pedals. I use CH controll manager to calibirate them, maybe I should try uninstall it.
The spiking is is much like the spiking of any other joystick when the pots are bad, if I, say, move the pedals 50% and hold them there, the actual input displayed in AH (looking at stick settings and even looking at the planes rudder) change from maybe 45-55% so it is not stable at the 50% it should be, it goes up and down.
These are two pictures I took of the spiking, check the top right of the picture, will see what it looks like.
I have also noticed what you talk about, very small movement of the pedal gives you full response, don't think I still suffer from that though.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/267_1121162262_spiking2.jpg)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/267_1121162231_spiking1.jpg)
I will try and write CH tech support once more and ask for a replacement pot (IMO they owe me that much). I can't send the pedals back, costs too much to send them to the US. There are stores in Europe of course but that would cost quite much aswell + I have opened them up because they refused to send me a pot in the first place. I had to try and find out what was wrong with it. It is most likely the pot, possibly a cable as far as I can tell.
Replacing it my self will be no problem.
Thank you very much for the offer, I will keep it in mind after I have talked to CH support again!
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Wil, have you checked the wire to pots that they are OK? If a pot gives a spike to its max deflection with only a slight movement I would assume a wire is loose or broken.
One problem could also be the bad positioning of pot in the first place. The pot is mounted slightly in a bad position which causes the carbon film to wear through and thus start malfunctioning. This can be easily verified by measuring between the middle pin and either of the side pins. The spiking should be evident then the axle is moved slowly.
The standard pots are not usually suitable as replacements as their resistance is divided on 270 deg of movememnt whereas in joy pots the resistance is divided to less than 90 deg of movement.
But they could be modified to suit the purpose, of course.
-C+
PS. As replacements I would use plastic film pots as they are more durable. They are usually not used because they are more expensive and they do not endure electric currents too well.
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Yup Charge I've checked the Wires, AKAK told me about the bad possitioning of the pot aswell but non of the wires look bad or are squezed anywhere which is why I more or less have come to the conclusion that it is the pot.
As for replacing the pot, I will only do so with a default 100k pot from CH or a pair of CH pedals. No other pots should be needed IMO.
Thanks :)
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Rgr, If the pot change doesn't do the trick it could be useful to resolder the connector pins if there are any on the circuit bord side. They may often have very small fractures in the solders which causes weird or erratic funtioning.
-C+
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Will check that aswell Charge, thanks :)
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Wow, Wilbus -- that does look bad. :(
Just for the heck of it, because it might be quick to try compared to replacing potentiometers, you might want to try the following, even if it has a low chance of eliminating the spiking. Try uninstalling the CH software in "Control Panel -> Add/Remove programs". Then try removing the pedals with the "remove" button in "Control Panel -> Game Controllers". Unplug the USB pedals, reboot your computer, and plug them back in and make sure you get a message from the computer saying that it found new hardware then recognized them as CH Pedals. Now, without calibrating anything at all, go back into AH and see what it looks like.
If that doesn't work, feel free to e-mail me your address, and I'll send you my spare CH game-port pedals.
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Thanks Brooke will try it!!
Yes that is REALLY bad, I've succeeded in minimizing it but still getting the occasional big spikes. And I always have micro spiking, very noticable when looking back at the rudder when on the runway, it just moves very rapidly in both directions (although small movements).
Will try it :)
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I used the FCS/WCS, the FLCS/TQS, and the F22/TQS between 1989 and 2002, so I am dyed-in-the-wool TM fanboi. I pre-ordered a Cougar when it was announced and a year+ later I got it. It worked flawlessly for almost two years before I started to wear it out. TM support used to be the best in the business for US customers, but since TM was sold to a french outfit our (US) customer service sucks. But I hear otherwise from my European friends so take that as one opinion only.
I now have the billet inserts, hall effect sensors, and the "Uber-2-NXT" gimbal assembly installed in her. I can say without hesitation that this is the greatest stick you can buy for $1,000.00.
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Originally posted by Edbert
I can say without hesitation that this is the greatest stick you can buy for $1,000.00.
That's just the problem. There are pretty much no other sticks out there on the general market anywhere near $1000.
I am using a stock cougar and like it alot, many feutures I love with it. But would like to replace the springs in the future to get a constant resictance in it. Would like hall sensors aswell. But I think it is a great stick even in its stock format.
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You can get the pressure sensitive (think near-zero-movement as in the F16) gimbal mod and make a $1,500.00 stick out of your cougar :D
IMO, the original Cougar had two issues, the housings for the dogfight/speedbrake were plastic and misaligned, and the gimbal was made of cheap metal that wore poorly. Both have been rectified by the community at Cougar World (a subsection of Frugal's) and now it is nearly perfect.
But yeah, you are right. Comparing my $1K stick to the plastic (POS) Saitek and CH versions is not fair...LOL.
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Thanks Brooke will try it!!
Yes that is REALLY bad, I've succeeded in minimizing it but still getting the occasional big spikes. And I always have micro spiking, very noticable when looking back at the rudder when on the runway, it just moves very rapidly in both directions (although small movements).
Will try it :)
I had microspikes untill I plugged my CH gear on a powered hub.