Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: usuqa_mdiq on October 02, 2005, 11:43:56 PM
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hey what about something like this??
(http://www.panzer-modell.de/referenz/suggestiv/kugelblitz.jpg)
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knowing the ballistics of the 30mm (and how bad they suck) the current osty is far far better.
The funny thing is, that the 30mm in real life was supposed to be super long range, able to hit bombers outside of their defensive guns range. Oh well.
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Originally posted by Krusty
knowing the ballistics of the 30mm (and how bad they suck) the current osty is far far better.
MK108 and MK103 are very different guns. 109/110s armed by MK108.
Originally posted by Krusty
The funny thing is, that the 30mm in real life was supposed to be super long range, able to hit bombers outside of their defensive guns range. Oh well.
Looks like you know nothing about you said. MK108 has effective range 100m approximately. MK108 advantage over 20mm guns was power not range.
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I doubt they'd make any weapon anywhere for any purpose that had an effective range of ONLY 100 meters. Prove that before I even attempt to belive it :)
Also I've heard reports of bomber crews sitting there helplessly as they were behing hit by cannon fire frim outside their own guns range by attacking planes.
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Did you even saw MK108's pics and characteristics? Short barrel, low muzzle velocity cannon with terrible ballistics - that is it.
I cannt remember where i saw 100m number now, but read this at least:
Because the fight against heavy allied bombers required a 30mm cannon, the lighter MK 108 was developed, with a much lower ballistic performance, but less than half the weight and bulk. Fighters could carry two or even four MK 108s. This gun had a heavy punch, but because it was a short-range weapon fighter pilots had to get really close to their targets. Its use required strong nerves and better training than German pilots received during these last years of the war.
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/gustin_military/fgun.html , "Heavier Cannon" section. You can see guns characteristics there as well.
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Okay, fantastic, the 108 only hits up close. We know this. What about the 103 that's on that tank chassis?
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Okay, fantastic, the 108 only hits up close. We know this. What about the 103 that's on that tank chassis?
I dont know anything about it.
Originally posted by Krusty
Also I've heard reports of bomber crews sitting there helplessly as they were behing hit by cannon fire frim outside their own guns range by attacking planes.
There are others heavy cannons with really long range, Bordkanone BK 3.7 for example. It was used in 110G2 agains allied bombers and even had telescopic (or optical?) sight for long range shots.
(in fact, MK103 never widely used as air-to-air weapon, even though it good range and ballistics)
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the twin gun 3 cm zwillingsflak 103/38 was used, which had also been fitted to such planes as the Henschel Hs 129 and Dornier Do 335.
The Kugelblitz had the chassis and basic superstructure of the Panzer IV tank, on which a newly designed turret was mounted. This turret was fully enclosed, with overhead protection and could turn 360 degrees.
The armament consisted of the twin gun 3 cm zwillingsflak 103/38, which could fire 450 rounds a minute.
[edit]
In service
The Kugelblitz was not yet out of development when the war ended. Several evaluation vehicles had been built, but it is unclear how many. It is also unclear what happened to the few Kugelblitz which were built; some sources say that they ended up being used in the battle for Berlin.
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The Mk103 had much higher velocity, it was used on some planes (such a Hs 129 for tank killing). Velocity of the shells were about 870 meters/sec (2854 feet/sec).
So that is one high velocity, would be easier to hit then with the current Osti, about 450 rpm and 2 guns would make 900 rpm total.
The weapon weighted almost three times as much as the Mk 108 though which is why it wasn't used on fighters much.
As for effective range of the Mk108 being 100 meters I wouldn't agree. It was probarly a few hundred meters further out but take into account that most pilots (specially many LW aces) prefered to fire bellow 100 meters, even with 20mm and MG's they would most likely have wanted to get in equally close with the 30mm due to the extreem drop of the shell. But effective killing power (if hit) would probarly be a bit further out.
The velocity is low but not THAT low, it is above 600 meters/sec.
Not 100% sure about this velocity but I know it was high, maybe Tony Williams can step in with more exact number/confirm this one.
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Isn't the 262 supposed to have 2x 103 and 2x 108? If so is this ballistics modeled properly in AH?
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262 had 4x20mm Mk 108's.
Mk 103's would be too heavy. Fighter-Bomber verision (A2) usually had a pair of 30's removed.
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Originally posted by Wilbus
262 had 4x20mm Mk 108's.
You mean 30mm.
Hah! Revenge!!!!!
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Originally posted by Wilbus
The velocity is low but not THAT low, it is above 600 meters/sec.
I post link above, it say 505 m/s. Same others sources say 540 m/s and 560 m/s even, but never close to 600.
Dont forget about short barrel (whole gun length is 1 meter, for comparation, MK-103 has 2.5m length).
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Just fyi there were 262 with 6 cannon.
2 mg151/20
2 mk108 30mm
2 mk103 30mm
:)
Oh mk108 is a much better a2a cannon than 103, weighs much less has 30% greater rof and the balistics arent really that bad considering the normally short engagement ranges of ww2.
As for aaa that kugelblitz with 2 mk103 would have been a monster :).
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Oh mk108 is a much better a2a cannon than 103, weighs much less has 30% greater rof and the balistics arent really that bad considering the normally short engagement ranges of ww2.
Then, why MK-103 was used in late war in some 109K-4 instead of "much better MK-108"?
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The Mk 103 was never used in late war K4's Oleg, it is a myth, just as the 15mm MG151's on 109 K4's is a myth.
The Mk108 was by far the superior wepon thanks to rate of fire, weight, size etc. The only thing the Mk 103 held over the Mk 108 was velocity. The 109 would be too nose heavy with a Mk103, not only that but the Mk 108 was just above 1 meter long, the Mk 103 was 2.3 meters long. That is 230% longer. The weight of the 103 was just over 140kg compared to just bellow 60kg. That is more then 200% heavier.
As for velocity of Mk 108 I did a re-check and found that I had mixed up the velocity, it is around 500-540 as you said, not 600 as I said.
Still, the effective hit range would be well beyond 100 meters if the shell hits, the biggest problem would be if the shell detonates on top of the surface instead of inside the targets "body" or surfaces.
Karnak, I hate you! :D
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Originally posted by Wilbus
The Mk 103 was never used in late war K4's Oleg, it is a myth, just as the 15mm MG151's on 109 K4's is a myth.
Are you sure? It must be very common myth then.
It /mk-103/ was an excellent, powerful weapon, but again it could not be carried by a fighter without considerable loss of performance. Only at the very end of the war did some fighters, such as subtypes of the Bf 109K, carry a MK103 gun on the centreline.
(same link as before)
I saw it in others sites too, just no time to search them again now.
Originally posted by Wilbus
The Mk108 was by far the superior wepon thanks to rate of fire, weight, size etc. The only thing the Mk 103 held over the Mk 108 was velocity. The 109 would be too nose heavy with a Mk103, not only that but the Mk 108 was just above 1 meter long, the Mk 103 was 2.3 meters long. That is 230% longer. The weight of the 103 was just over 140kg compared to just bellow 60kg. That is more then 200% heavier.
Cannt agree with you. MK-103 has more powerfull bullets, greater effective range and better ballistics. The primary factor that determine mk-108 usage over mk-103 was weight. Luftwaffe just cannt use such heavy weapon in high-altitude interceptors. They sacrificed range and ballistics to low weight.
RoF wasnt so important, though that still a significant. So american M4 and soviet NS-37 has much low RoF (140 and 250 rpm) but they was used with success even against fighters not only bombers.
Originally posted by Wilbus
Still, the effective hit range would be well beyond 100 meters if the shell hits, the biggest problem would be if the shell detonates on top of the surface instead of inside the targets "body" or surfaces.
Hmm... I dont sure we both said about same things.
I say "effective range" mean range you still have significant chances to hit your target from. Because of bullet dispersion mostly. MK-108 has big dispersion because of short barrel and low velocity, MK-103 has low dispersion (long barrel and high velocity).
If you was lucky enough to hit something with MK-108 from 500m it cause significant damage as well.
btw, i supposed mk-108 has "thin-walled" bullets with instantaneous fuse (sorry for spelling, i lack technical terms), is it true?
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This brings us to the MK 103, which many sources state was used as an engine cannon in some of the later series planes. The truth is that the MK 103 was a massive gun which would not fit in the small space available between the back of the engine and the cockpit. To give some comparative figures; the MK 108 weighed 60kg and was 105cm long, whereas the MK 103 weighed 141 kg and was 235 cm long. About 133cm of the length of the MK 103 was too wide to fit within the narrow tube running between the cylinder banks, so had to be mounted behind the engine, and this was simply impossible.
Despite this problem, the idea of arming the Bf 109 with such a powerful weapon was attractive, so Rheinmetall-Borsig started work on a modified version which would fit, designated the MK 103M. The gas-operating mechanism was slimmed down which enabled the gun to be mounted some 30cm further forward, leaving just enough space to squeeze it into the plane. The MK 103M was reportedly test-flown in a K series, but reliability was poor and the gun was not adopted for service. By this time, however, plans had been drawn up for its installation in the K-8 and K-10 models and these plans later came to light. It was probably this which led researchers to believe that some versions of the Bf 109 were fitted with the MK 103.
Just to back up my statement.
from the page http://www.bf109.com (http://www.bf109.com)
It is a very common myth, as is the 15mm cowl gun myth, I am not sure where they both come from. I've heard they come from a book published in the 70's. It has been long lived and only during the past few years it's been corrected.
In my opinion it can be easily explained and understood by simply saying this: You can not fit a 2.3 meter, 140kg cannon in a space designed for a 1 meter, 60kg cannon.
The Bf 109 was always designed for "the most powerfull engine fitted in the smallest and lightest airframe possible".
The Mk 108 was IMO the far superior weapon for fighter vs fighter combat and for fighter vs bomber attacks. Of course opionons are like a**holes, everyone has one.
The Mk 108 was lighter, higher rate of fire, powerfull enough to bring down a fighter with a single hit or heavy bombers with 3-5 hits. It was much cheaper and easier to produce.
As I said in my previous post, even the german aces often fired at distances of 100 meters or well bellow. If you look at WW2 fotage of german fighters attacking bombers from a long distance (400 meters or more) they usualy score no hits at all even with 20mm and 13mm guns that are far easier to hit with then a 30mm. Doesn't matter what the dispersion is if the pilots can't hit at that distance anyway.
So what good is it to have a gun that you can kill with from 1000 meters if the pilots can't hit?
The Mk 103 was a terrific tank killer, high velocity, heavy AP shells with a fairly good rate of fire.
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Just to back up my statement.
...
from the page http://www.bf109.com (http://www.bf109.com)
Ok, thank for info.
Originally posted by Wilbus
As I said in my previous post, even the german aces often fired at distances of 100 meters or well bellow. If you look at WW2 fotage of german fighters attacking bombers from a long distance (400 meters or more) they usualy score no hits at all even with 20mm and 13mm guns that are far easier to hit with then a 30mm. Doesn't matter what the dispersion is if the pilots can't hit at that distance anyway.
But it matter if pilot can. There is real fact, soviet sniper pilot Vorozheikin shoot down Ju88 with single shot from NS-37 gun from about 600 meters. Its exclusion of course, but B-24s was a considerably larger targets.
Back to beginning, Krusty said german 30mm was designed to shoot down buffs from safe distance, i just tried to prove what it wasnt.
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Originally posted by Lye-El
The Kugelblitz had the chassis and basic superstructure of the Panzer IV tank, on which a newly designed turret was mounted. This turret was fully enclosed, with overhead protection and could turn 360 degrees.
how did they see out of it? ;)
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Rgr.
No the MK 108 wouldn't really be from safe distance unless you wanna waste ammo and hope for hits.
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Originally posted by Furball
how did they see out of it? ;)
Looks like a viewport on the turrent. I would imagine armored glass. :D
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Spray and Pray Furball.