Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Udie on April 03, 2001, 12:21:00 PM
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About this China crap? They've had 24 of our boys for 4 days now with no sign of release, and they have taken apart our plane. Are we at war with them? I see NO reason for them to still be holding our soldiers. The plane I can understand, but the soldiers I don't get.
Personaly I'm starting to think we need to bash China down while we still can. They've been rattling thier sabors for almost 10 years now and I for one am tired of it. We should start by sending 4 or 5 cruise missles and whipe out the airport that our plane is at, that should be done by this weekend if our boys aren't back yet.
May all communist BURN IN HELL!
Udie
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we did bomb their embassy already (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
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Udie, do that and you will NEVER see the crew again, I assure you.
Military force isn't going to be the answer to this one.
1. Use force before you get the crew back and they will either kill them or lock them away somewhere and TELL you that they were "killed in your own attack".
2. Use force after you get the crew back and you are over-reacting. If all they have is the inanimate plane, you can't justify (in the court of world opinion) attacking a sovereign nation.
I'm suprised the Navy Tactical Doctrine for an aircraft of this sophistication and importance allowed them to land in China.
I would have thought the standing orders would have been to ditch in deep water, like tac doctrine was in the "old days".
Face it. They have already won this one. They will release the crew when ready and I doubt we'll ever get the plane back before they have thoroughly examined it...if at all.
However, let this be a guideline for our dealing with them from this day forward.
I'd end "most favored nation" trading status with them immediately.
I'd slowly begin building tarriff barriers against importing their goods and slowly begin implementing supplements and tax breakss for US businesses that move out of China.
I'd also provide incentives for our businesses to build trade with other, more responsible nations.
I would implement short-term compensation for any US workers that were adversely affected by this program.
The Chinese are simply unreliable partners, in world peace or trade interests. The sooner we admit it and move on the better.
Let them live in their workers paradise without the US market to support it.
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 04-03-2001).]
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They are just posturing Udie, they created this incident in order to establish a presedent for further action if we give Tiawan the armaments they want.
I dont really have an opinion on that but the interesting thing is what the Japanese are doing right now----nothing.
They have the most to lose if China begins to destablize the area.
Got go back to work, will post more later.
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Milo
3./JG2
"Preceive those things which cannot be seen."
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I'm with you udie. Posted the cruise missile suggestion twice already. I think the Chinese are using the crew to barter with us on the Taiwan deal.
Then again the captain of the plane may not want to come back as I think he messed up by not ditching and sinking the aircraft with it's secrets.
Eagler
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IMO, and for those that do not believe the chinese are at fault. You have to understand whats going on in this situation. A good friend of mine just retired from the USAF doing 20 years in the AWACS business, he works as a civilian 50 feet from me now on Langley AFB. Keeping the crew hostage more or less is grounds for bellybutton kicking. We see where diplomacy has led to, we see were economical strains placed on a country have done. It is time to stop being a push over and start acting like the number 1 country that we are. Otherwise you will see an increase of "accidents" like this one. Do onto others as you would do upon yourself does not apply in this situation. As it is now does China fear the united states? Nope, we need something to happen to strike fear into other countries, so these cowardly acts will stop. Kick their tulips IMO.
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Sturm6 StaffelKapitän
JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron
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Yeah!! Start WW3!..that would make the global warming, slowing economy irrelevant and we would all find out if there is a god or not.
Best idea I've heard in ages.
Daff
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you guys are forgetting thats a huge plane he had it is about the size of a large commercial airliner, and to boot it has a radar dome on the bottom, pretty hard to ditch and survive in water eh? Btw, reports are that they didn't have parachutes so they could save weight......so they most likely either dumped the very sensitive equipment, and then landed it...But on topic, yep we should do something, and do it soon, this is violating INTERNATIONAL LAW!
Pup out
[This message has been edited by Pup (edited 04-03-2001).]
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I'm with you udie. Posted the cruise missile suggestion twice already.
Eagler, I swear, you're like Nick Fury, but without Nick's common sense! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Mk
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Canadian.
They had to have instructions to land there from their theater comander right? I find it increadable that they landed there.
They are equiped for survival certainly. I am sure that it is no easy decision to put her down in the water of the north pacific but life is hell. You cant give that airframe to the Chinese. Did the other fighter threaten them or something to get them to land there?
Countries that dont anwser to their people for their decisions sure stand out like a sore thumb.
Will this be one of those corners in history where things change dramaticaly.
Cause that sure looks like an act of war to me.
If they forced a CVN into port and detained the crew would it be clearer what is going on.....
Or is this another ooo they atacked our intelligence ship in the gulf...
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Hey Pup! News Flash!
There are published ditching procedures for commercial aircraft! Or do you think we just fly B-767ER's across the pond and hope for the best? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
More News!
The RC-135 is an even BIGGER commercial aircraft (B707-720) than a P-3 with antennae and "cheeks" stuck all over it and it has....
published DITCHING PROCEDURES!
All that being said, ditching is a pretty risky venture and people most likely are going to die or get hurt.
Nonetheless, there are risks when you put on a uniform. And it's no secret about ditching.
My unit briefed everyone on the Tactical Doctrine and the risks. If it wasn't for you, you could opt out. I never knew anyone that did. It went with the job.
I'll bet he's WISHING he HAD ditched right about now. (I have no clue as to their current Tac Doctrine, however.)
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Originally posted by Toad:
.....However, let this be a guideline for our dealing with them from this day forward.
I'd end "most favored nation" trading status with them immediately.
I'd slowly begin building tarriff barriers against importing their goods and slowly begin implementing supplements and tax breakss for US businesses that move out of China.
I'd also provide incentives for our businesses to build trade with other, more responsible nations.
I would implement short-term compensation for any US workers that were adversely affected by this program.
The Chinese are simply unreliable partners, in world peace or trade interests. The sooner we admit it and move on the better.
Let them live in their workers paradise without the US market to support it.
Damn straight.
Fury
[This message has been edited by Fury (edited 04-03-2001).]
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According to International Law, as I understand it, China had no right to board and inspect that aircraft. It is considered to be sovereign US territory and can not legally be inspected without explicit US permission. As far as the crew goes, China may have the right to "debrief" them before returning them and their aircraft (uninspected, unless the US gave permission to the US, which it did not in this case).
I think that both China and the US are being too aggressive in this case. Admittedly, its hard to be calm when our people are being held against their will by a foreign nation, but we should still try. I think a week is too short a period of time to go through before starting WWIII.
China IS, supposedly, granting access to the crew today by US Diplomats.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
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Originally posted by Mk10 225th:
I'm with you udie. Posted the cruise missile suggestion twice already.
Eagler, I swear, you're like Nick Fury, but without Nick's common sense! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Mk
Why thank you Mk (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Just exploring all of our options.
Here's a question for all:
If the roles were reversed and a Chinese "spy" plane was sitting in say California somewhere, wouldn't you CA residents be walking around wondering if the Chinese might retaliate? I would if there was one sitting at MacDill here in Tampa.
Eagler
"always thinking the worse but praying for the best"
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Im with Toad plus I would arm Taiwan to the brim with grim. A heavily armed Taiwan could probably defeat the mainland army in a week or three.
Yeager
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Yeah, Pongo. I wonder what guidance he was getting from "Higher HQ". I'd be amazed if they didn't have SATCOM on that thing.
I keep getting that itchy feeling that there's more to this story that OUR Navy won't want to talk about. (Though in my own mind I'm pretty much convinced the Chinese fighter pilot failed his formation checkride.) <EDIT> I'm referring here to the Command & Control aspect.
Generally speaking, ALL US Recon flights are very closely monitored, around the world and around the clock (at least they used to be.)
People with the authority and theoretically the "smarts" to make instant decisions never used to be more than a minute or two away from the "phone".
Hard to believe that a Lt.JG Plane Captain made this decision all by his lonesome.
We'll just have to wait and see.
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 04-03-2001).]
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"Im with Toad plus I would arm Taiwan to the brim with grim. A heavily armed Taiwan could probably defeat the mainland army in a week or three"
You seem to forget how a million or so chinese swarmed korea in the 50's. On the other hand, why not arm the tibetans?
Use force against china, what a ludicrous idea. WW3, if it goes to nukes, will have only the chinese as victors, as probabilty has it that MORE chinese will survive than the rest of the world. The whole idea is laughable.
Economic sanctions? Another lost cause. If cuba has endured it for 50 years, China can. And China makes a toejamload of stuff US consumers like to buy and on which most US companies depend on for cheap labor. Look at your trusty joystick..its made in china!.
I think bush should just follow his predecesor's example: Go to china and vomit on the Chinese leader's tie. Then this whole thing will be forgotten, as the president's vomit is more media news. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Covered in other post
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/confused.gif)
[This message has been edited by Oosik (edited 04-03-2001).]
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I wouldn't crack open the liquor and weapons display case just yet fellas. China's biggest enemy is itself. Communist countries have proven to have a very short shelf life. As some Chinese sage must have said, "Patience".
In any case, if this a/c is so valuable why wasn't it ditched?
Is it just me or has the military really been screwing the pooch lately?
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It's really funny to see how grown up people make complete tulips of themselves..
Like it or not, China is a huge country and even if it does have outdated technology it can hurt US with shere numbers.
Diplomacy is the only way to work with the problem..
The crew of the plane was literally asking for trouble going near chinese borders.. Usually they get away with it, this time toejam hit the fan.
Communist dictatorships are known to be totally uncontrollable, a reason why I never want to visit russia for example.. They will shoot first ask questions later.
As much as you see China being the devil itself, the Chinese see your country as evil.
Bombing the embacy in Bosnia and Bush making half-ass remarks referring to Kyoto agreement won't make things any easyer on the diplomatic level. You have to remember that they slaughtered masses of their own people in the square of the heavenly peace massacre.. Students having a peaceful protest.
China is a triggered bomb, if US has any brain at all it will try to defuse it instead of hitting with a hammer.
Let's see.. At least Eagler and others seem to already dance the 'hammertime'
Some of the US folks seem to think that based on recent history their country can do whatever it pleases, one cruise missile here another there and everyone's a happy puppy..
All I can say is that you are SO brainwashed and SO stupid. Shelling China would be an act of war according to those international laws that you so much like to underline..
I'm not aware of any international laws protecting foreign military equipment/crew in case the spy mission goes bad. The usual doctrine with dealing foreign government vehicles is that they are hostile unless otherwise reported.
The presence of the ac was not authorized by China so the open skies agreement has nothing to do with it. Open skies is based on controlled mutual surveillance flights between countries.
If you thought Vietnam was bad.. hehehe.. China will be like that but only nothing like it..
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Bush statement 1600 EST:
Time's Up China!
Eagler
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Originally posted by Tac:
You seem to forget how a million or so chinese swarmed korea in the 50's. On the other hand, why not arm the tibetans?
But, Tac, isn't it pretty hard to swim wearing a combat infantryman's loadout? And Tanks! They are just so s-l-o-o-o-w in deep water! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
WW3, if it goes to nukes, will have only the chinese as victors,
Back in the bad old days of the Cold War, the powers that HAD nukes all knew there were NO winners in a nuke exchange.
I'm not so sure the Chinese leadership has grasped this fact as yet. In 10 years or so this could be a real problem. (Star Wars, anyone? Oh, no! We'll NEVER need anything like THAT! Don't even bother to research it. After all, the Chinese leaders are such rational, predictable and friendly folks! (http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/contrib/blackeye/blabla.gif) )
Economic sanctions? Another lost cause. If cuba has endured it for 50 years, China can. And China makes a toejamload of stuff US consumers like to buy and on which most US companies depend on for cheap labor. Look at your trusty joystick..its made in china!.
Yeah, baby! Look how WELL they live in Cuba! I bet the Chinese hope to live that well someday. Slowly losing their best trading partner that runs an -83,810.00 MILLION USD deficit with her wouldn't bother the Chinese a bit.
Beyond that, there is simply no other Asian nation or nations that have the capability to inexpensively make the cell phones, cheap CD's, flip-flop sandals and T-shirts that Americans can't live without! If such nations did exist, they wouldn't want a piece of the trade anyway, would they? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
BTW, all my CH stuff... Stick, Throttle and Rudders.... says "made in US" on the bottom. Still working after about 7-8 years too...go figure. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 04-03-2001).]
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Originally posted by MrSiD:
The crew of the plane was literally asking for trouble going near chinese borders.. Usually they get away with it, this time toejam hit the fan.
Sorry, Sid.
Nearly every "world power" country performs aerial surveillance missions. I'm sure China does as well, particularly against Taiwan. There are rules for how to do it. As long as the rules are followed, there is almost NEVER a problem.
This statement of yours shows a lack of understanding of worldwide recon activities.
I'm not aware of any international laws protecting foreign military equipment/crew in case the spy mission goes bad.
The fact that YOU are unaware of them doesn't mean they don't exist. They do.
Beyond that, this isn't a "spy mission gone bad". This was a mid-air collision with a recon aircraft over International waters which resulted in an aircraft in distress.
"Spy mission gone bad" might describe the Powers flight, however. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
The presence of the ac was not authorized by China...
Doesn't have to be over International Waters. The causal factor, the mid-air collision almost HAS to be the fault of the Chinese. Here's why:
1. The Chinese chose to intercept the aircraft over International Waters.
2. Nothing says they can't intercept, however, if they do, THEY assume the responsibility for separation of aircraft. In other words, they must AVOID hitting the intecepted aircraft.
3. In all of aviation regulation and law, the less maneuverable, slower aircraft has the right of way.
Now, after a collision occurs, especially so given the above circumstances, the Chinese are bound by international aviation treaties to render all possible assistance to an aircraft in distress. That's why all this stuff about "permission to land" and "violation of airspace" is hogwash.
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Toad summed it up, very well.
It's time to stop trying to impress chinese with our "kindness". Their leaders do not care and their people do not know the real situation anyway.
We should stop financing a country hostile to us with a government system that would never be comfortable with our democracy. If we need a cheap labor, Mexico can use all that trade dificit.
miko
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I dont like this at all.
I'm not clear if its an act of war from the chinese, the plane being a spy plane. But I'm pretty sure it was rammed by the chinese fighter intentionally. Two planes flying slowly in a straight line can tap each other and not break apart; for example I once read an account of WWII in wich an US flyer had a jammed bomb stuck in its wing, and his wingleader got close to him and tried to pull the bomb out with his wingtip.
So I think the chinese forced the plane to land because they were smarter than to shoot it down.
I'm all against the US reacting violently to China, but if nothing is done, next time, it will be civilians held captive in China with some roadkill accusations. It could be a member of your family.
I saw the US has to re-think their relations to that country. Clearly their goverment is not the kind of "righteous" goverment the US promotes.
This is almost an act of terrorism.
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S!
Using military means to persuade China is like seeking for trouble.They are at their home turf and have the definite edge there.Don't need to bring stuff overseas etc-->No logistical problems.For the US it would take weeks to prepare anything significant and before that all China would be on alert status.And I don't think USA will risk losing any of it's CV's(or another valuable equipment/crews) there because of a P3 "Orion" and few crew members.It is the politics that will solve this IMO.Don't take this as underestimating the military power of US,but try to see the facts from behind the red-blue-white goggles (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) I really wish that the new president of US stops bullying around and seeks for a better solution than any kind of military action.Best for all of us.My 2 cents,not a flame Gentlemen.
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DB603
3.Lentue
Lentolaivue 34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34/)
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Toad, wake up. Nuke war, the MAD policy was designed so no COUNTRY or NATION could win.
Now think about what I said. almost half the world's population is in China (heck, perhaps even more thatn that). The nukes start flying... who has a statistical chance of surviving? The chinese gov may be blasted to kingdom come, but the Chinese wont. And those people have THOUSANDS of years of social cohesion and history.
Compare how many fighters and ships the Taiwanese have compared to China. Now think how many china would BUILD when they seriously plan to take Taiwan by force. Who is closer to Taiwan? The US or China? Just as the US can plan an invasion, so can the Chinese, and in this one, the chinese hold the upper hand.
"Look how WELL they live in Cuba! I bet the Chinese hope to live that well someday
I think that comment backfires on itself.
"Beyond that, there is simply no other Asian nation or nations that have the capability to inexpensively make the cell phones, cheap CD's, flip-flop sandals and T-shirts that Americans can't live without"
Name one that has the same capability as china RIGHT NOW (without massive investment by foreign/US industry) to do that.
Oh, and most "made in the us" have internal components "made elsewhere".
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Originally posted by Animal:
This is almost an act of terrorism.
Take the "almost" out and you have it right.
If they rammed us, it's an act of war...
Now they will not release our crew, is this not an act of aggression at the very least and an act of war at it's worst?
What if one of the crew was YOUR brother, sister or father? They do not have a right to keep the plane nor it's crew. The Chinese LEADERSHIP, not it's uninformed populous, needs to held accountable. We need a to show them the "big stick" we are carrying. Either an economic or military stick, a BIG stick none the less. Do realize every arse backwards third world country is watching us to see how much we take ....
Eagler
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Daff that was a funny one. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I wonder what would have happened if this situation had happened with Cuba or some other weak country
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Name one that has the same capability as china RIGHT NOW (without massive investment by foreign/US industry) to do that.
While not the bulk of China, certainly capable of supplying electronics are Korea and (wouldn't the Chinese love this...) Taiwan.
As to the massive investment, a majority of that investment is due simply to the market supply of the product. IE the dramatic increase in demand from the markets of Korea and Taiwan would in itself provide a massive investment boom to those areas. I don't advise hard sanctions on China mind you (reserving the right to change my mind pending the outcome of this situation) because it's mutually benificial, but we would certainly survive a halt of trade with China well enough, with the side effect of strengthening China's neighbors at their expense.
[This message has been edited by Fatty (edited 04-03-2001).]
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What I don't understand is how they say that the EP-3 "turned suddenly" when the EP-3 can't turn very fast at all. The pilot would have needed to be right up close to the EP-3 for that. The plane can't turned that fast.
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semperfi
(http://www.usmc.mil/templateml.nsf/marinesega.jpg)
Everything dead in 30 minutes or less or the next one's free.
-Marines
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Udie, do that and you will NEVER see the crew again, I assure you.
Military force isn't going to be the answer to this one.
1. Use force before you get the crew back and they will either kill them or lock them away somewhere and TELL you that they were "killed in your own attack".
2. Use force after you get the crew back and you are over-reacting. If all they have is the inanimate plane, you can't justify (in the court of world opinion) attacking a sovereign nation.
I'm suprised the Navy Tactical Doctrine for an aircraft of this sophistication and importance allowed them to land in China.
I would have thought the standing orders would have been to ditch in deep water, like tac doctrine was in the "old days".
Face it. They have already won this one. They will release the crew when ready and I doubt we'll ever get the plane back before they have thoroughly examined it...if at all.
However, let this be a guideline for our dealing with them from this day forward.
I'd end "most favored nation" trading status with them immediately.
I'd slowly begin building tarriff barriers against importing their goods and slowly begin implementing supplements and tax breakss for US businesses that move out of China.
I'd also provide incentives for our businesses to build trade with other, more responsible nations.
I would implement short-term compensation for any US workers that were adversely affected by this program.
The Chinese are simply unreliable partners, in world peace or trade interests. The sooner we admit it and move on the better.
Let them live in their workers paradise without the US market to support it.
I'll have to second Toads response, firing cruise missles would be stupid IMO.
I just hope the aircraft had some devices aboard to destroy the more sensitive equipment - and the crew engaged them when they landed the plane.
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"Look how WELL they live in Cuba! "
And the US embargo got absolutly nothing to do with that?.
Daff
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Let's have a war!!! Let's kick some f****** ass!!
It must be all but, ooh, 50 years from the last one. It's about bloody time. I really want to see mushroom clouds over Sheffield, because if it kicked off, there is no way on Earth that Western Europe would come through it unscathed. Hey and if goes critical conventionally, I can't wait for my draft papers. That would be so cool!
Seriously, diplomacy is the name of the game now. Not chest-beating or impotent posturing. Be grateful that you have actually heard of this incident; during the Cold War this kind of thing happened regularly over the years, and was not released to the media. I was reading how US servicemen lost their lives in 'secret' encounters between C-130 reconaissance planes and Soviet fighters.
Be careful, Mr. Bush, the whole world is watching.
Daff - there's no point arguing with Americans over the embargo with Cuba. Just contribute to the British charities who regularly fly aid to the hospitals there - I hear that the embargo will be gone within ten years.
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 04-03-2001).]
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Tac,
Do a little reading on the half-life of the radioactive particles left behind after a nuke goes off.
While my knowledge is now 20 years old, at one time I had a pretty intimate knowledge of how the US planned to wage a limited or all out nuclear war, if necessary. I'm also pretty aware of the radiation effects predicted.
Guess what? If we survived, we weren't going to be able to recover the airplanes to the US even though we figured we would still have had places to land.
Some Chinese might survive...for a while... but given an "all out" nuke exchange with the US (which I don't propose, just examining your thoughts)the whole place would be too radioactive to support human life for a long, long time. I hope they have this part figured out. (Not to mention a whole lot of other places that have the bad fortune to be nearby.)
Also, as far as is known right now, they may have the capability to hit the West Coast of the US (at present) with something like 10 weapons. A disaster to be sure. The ensuing retaliation, however, would be much more severe for them. (We still maintain an "no first use" posture AFAIK.)
In ten years or less, as I said, this will not necessarily be the case, IMO.
Swimming infantry? I wasn't referring to Taiwan. I was referring to the US. I KNOW we're not going to start a land war in China. I doubt they'd consider starting one here.
Taiwan? That question will have to be addressed sooner or later. I'll say this about it: I doubt the US would go to all out war to "save" Taiwan. My sons won't. Second, no one, not even the US can "make people free". They have to make themselves "free".
Cuba will come around..after Castro checks out. Right or wrong, no US administration is going to really help them poor bastiges until Fidel is in another astral plane.
You think Cuba has it better than China right now?
As far as trade with China, look in these threads and tell me where I said "Right Now."
You{/b], sir, are making that unwarranted assumption.
I, unlike some others in my government, (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) do take the "Chinese view."
These are people we should choose not to deal with. It may take 10 year or 20 years to cut our trade to next to nothing with them. Maybe longer; that's not a factor, tho.
Just 15 short years ago (for me; 15 years is probably a big deal to you, grasshopper (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ) here were the trade numbers:
TOTAL (Millions)
US Exports 3,855.70
US Imports 3,861.70
Deficit -6.00
I'm merely suggesting we start heading back that way.
As some famous guy once said "The longest journey begins with a single step."
Time to just start stepping away from China as a trade partner. This incident is just more proof that they are unstable partners in the pursuit world peace.
So, time to slowly encourage trade with other, more responsible, more rational nations. You do this with tax breaks, subsidies, MFN trade status (and the denial of same (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) ) and the other levers, pulleys and fulcrums of international trade.
...and the time to start is NOW.
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Well, I had alot to say, but Toad's pretty much covered it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerrkorps.com)
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Animal: "I'm not clear if its an act of war from the chinese, the plane being a spy plane"
Guys, I have been there, done this, in the exact same spot 21 years ago. I've read this type of comment way to much in the last 2 days..so excuse me for jumping in one more time but it bugs the cr*p outta me! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I know something about Recon...at least as it WAS and I know most of the big stuff hasn't changed.
The plan being a Recon plane has NOTHING to do with this, either way. It is a perfectly legal, accepted practice by all major powers to use aircraft, ships, submarines, whatever, in International Waters or Airspace to conduct surveillance of an electronic or optical nature.
The situation would be the same if this was a cargo plane, a tanker, a bomber or a fighter. It's a mid-air resulting in an aircraft in distress. That's it. That's all. Any way, that's what it SHOULD be. Who caused the mid-air is actually immaterial with regards to the aircraft in distress.
The key is "international airspace."
DB603: I really wish that the new president of US stops bullying around and seeks for a better solution than any kind of military action.
DB, please provide current Bush quotes that you consider "bullying around" and any that threaten "any kind of military action".
I haven't seen any like that but I'd like to read them if they are available.
Texace, mission tracks are almost always flown on autopilot coupled to the Nav system. You pretty much have to do it that way in order to get reliable position information to validate the "take" on the mission.
I'm wagering the EP-3 came to a programmed turn point and the fighter hit it as the a/p turned. I could be wrong, but this is what I suspect.
Most autopilots turn at a max of 25 degrees of bank at altitude and the roll in is usually a bit less than standard rate (3 degrees per second). So, figure an 7-8 second roll in to the max bank for the turn.
Not exactly sudden or real steep, is it?
Could have been totally different however, not enough info yet. But this would be pretty much "standard operating procedure".
Daff, the point is US trade is usually a very benficial deal for most of our trading partners and that's an understatement. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Cuba would be MUCH better off if we would trade with them. So would China. Hope they think about that. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Dowding: Be careful, Mr. Bush, the whole world is watching.
What, no advice for the CHINESE?
Jeez, as IF this is OUR fault.
C'mon Dowding, what has Bush said or done so far that you consider inflammatory or dangerous?
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Toad you are assuming the 10 Red missiles will be launched in time. I'm pretty sure the pre-emptive strike by the B-2's will slow them down.
If the pilot's good, see, I mean, if he's really... sharp, he can barrel that baby in so low, you oughtta see it sometime, it's a sight. A big plane like a B-2. VRROOM! There's jet exhaust, fryin' chickens in the barnyard.
We are rapidly approaching a moment of truth both for ourselves as human beings and for the life of our nation. Now, truth is not always a pleasant thing. But it is necessary now to make a choice, to choose between two admittedly regrettable, but nevertheless *distinguishable*, postwar environments: one where you got twenty million people killed, and the other where you got a hundred and fifty million people killed.
I'm not saying we wouldn't get our hair mussed. But I do say no more than ten to twenty million killed, tops. Uh, depending on the breaks.
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Who said anything about nuking china? Not that I'd worry about them hitting us, but we have alot of allies around the world that they could hit. BUT how do you think Russia would react if we nuked their neighbor? They'd probobly nuke us in return.
I have to say though, I would love to see a nice round bullet hole open up in the Chinese presidents forehead. It would be great if it could happen on tv too. Putkin for that matter too. These people are trying to start up the cold war again, and doing a very fine job of it too.
At the very least ALL trade should stop with china immediately. This would hurt some US companies, but as far as I'm concerned they deserve it for getting in bed with China in the first place. Those people have done nothing but rob our technology and copyrights for YEARS and our governments have done nothing to stop them accept give them most favorite nation trade status. It's just plain roadkill and it needs to stop yesterday.
I wonder if these amazinhunks remember the AVG?
Udie
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Quit playing stupid people, The Chinese say spy plane, CNN starts using that 'cuz it's good media (potato peelin vultures) And pretty soon folks forget a single important fact.
It isn't a spy plane, It isn't all black with no distinguishing insignia, The crew is not dressed in nondescript commercially available flight suits.
The aircraft in question is clearly identified as belonging to the US military, it's crew are in uniform and all carry military ID's. Go look up the definition of spy, and not in Webster's.
Hint, It came from Geneva.
Also International Law, which being Commies the Chinese have interpeted rather oddly, states that is a crime against humanity to refuse an aircraft in distress permission to land, even if the aircraft makes no request at the time of landing.
And FYI, Most pilot's I knew in the military would try to save the aircraft unless instructed otherwise, This is real life not AH, the damn thing costs a sh#ton.
The Chinese are playing at their favorite game, brinksmanship.
For their sake, I hoped they didn't make a major mistake.
My opinion of China's ability to win a conflict against the US remains at an all time low, We aren't talking the bush league anymore with everyone stepping soft to avoid crossing the political line, this would be a straight up fight, the kind America can take the gloves off, You know, the kind we tend to win.
And Toad made a good point up there, The Chinese version of MARSA must have the line, "Unless it belongs to Capitalist American pigs"
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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Originally posted by pzvg:
Also International Law, which being Commies the Chinese have interpreted rather oddly, states that is a
crime against humanity
to refuse an aircraft in distress permission to land, even if the aircraft makes no request at the time of landing."
SOP for Chinese leadership isn't?
State sanctified abortion, grinding students into asphalt with tanks... they don't put the same value on human life as most "civilized" countries do.
Eagler
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the wasy i see it, they may as well have shot the plane down, and what kind of idot runs his small fighter into a plane 4 or 5 times its size, china land or not it seems like a act of war, they forced a unarmed plane to land in now, and at the time unfriendly territory, i say send a 8 man team, with some guns in a C-130 and get em, and take the plane, or blow it up. btw did that blind, nitwit, discrace of a pilot crash after hiting our plane?
and they wonder why 52% of americans think there enimies
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(http://www.user.shentel.net/vonz/jato.JPG)
[This message has been edited by jato757 (edited 04-03-2001).]
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jato757,
Think before you say something, unless you want to see some dead Americans being added to an already embarassing situation for BOTH nations.
mx22
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"Good evening Dr. Falkner ..... would you like to play a game?" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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OhNooo
smile awhile
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Mx, why should the US be embarassed?
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i dont know about, if i was doin my job, and was taken prisoner, i would want them to get me and whoever i was with out of there! how would you like it? and the U.S.A has no reason to be imbarased,
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(http://www.user.shentel.net/vonz/jato.JPG)
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Toad you're right on.
I say:
America needs to start acting like we should. Start acting like we say we are.. lead by example and not words.
Confront the problem with a neutral stance and do not bring up events that happened in the past and complicating the matter. Example: We accidentally hit their embassy, toejam happens ya know? That shouldn't change the situation at hand one bit and there isn't any use trying to argue that fact. What happened has happened, blaming others wont solve anything.
The first thing Americans as citizens need to do is realize that other cultures and parts of the world aren't all going to be like America! And they arent going to conform to some foreign nation that has no ancient traditions and whatnot (like, who doyou think you are coming into my homeland of2000 years and telling me what to do?) Oh well. China by far looks at life and values completely different than our western way of thought.
Anyway, enough babble on that..
We, as citizens, don't have the knowledge of what the US government knows. Obviously there is much more to this story than we know. This situation could simply be an excuse to let each side know that they are still in the game.
China wants Taiwan. USA could care less about Taiwan, but they dont like China so they take away it's fun (Taiwan). USA wants to let its presence be known to China through Taiwan.. so we help and support them. China gets mad. China wants it's toy back. So China decides to play the game too, and they refuse to admit their fault and aren't allowed to play. China scratches and schemes like a little stubborn child for any support or attention possible. They dont have the means to hurt the US in a non-militaristic way so they look for every little thing to make them look like the victim. They deal out their "We're poor and in poverty, have pity" card when its their own damn fault for letting things get like that in the first place. They'll get no sympathy from the US (or me for that matter) because of their poor and stubborn decisions.
I hope you get the idea.. I read through this post again and I confused myself (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Thanks,
Oct
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-=///Octavius\\\=-
VMF-323 "Death Rattlers"
MAG-33
(http://ripsnort60.tripod.com/DeathRattlerslogo.gif)
Maz203@aol.com
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This is another one we can put on Slick Willy's bill. He cut the military up (I think they might have noticed). And his deals with the Chinese were just this side of a complete sell out. I think they might have gotten a taste of hi tech from Monica's boyfriend.
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Hey, they gave Czechoslovakia to Hilter...
Look how well that worked out.
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Oddly Octavius, your post is the one that makes the most sense here.
You'd have to be a complete retard to get in conflict with China OR the US anyway. If these 2 go at it, it will get very ugly, especially for those nations that would get dragged along or caught in between.
Worst of all, I wont have the chance to replace my TM stick if it breaks. Dangit!
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We are still at war with China . The Korean war was never ended on paper, only a cease fire .
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Was never a declared war, was it?
Didn't they call it a UN "Police Action" or something?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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According to International Law, as I understand it, China had no right to board and inspect that aircraft
If you see it as just an emergency landing, i believe you're right.
The Chinese, however, are pretty smart. Since one of their planes allegedly went down, they are treating the US plane as part of the crash investigation, i.e evidence and are (can and is being argued by the Chinese) allowed as a sovregein nation to inspect the evidence.
Just love politics :/
Talking about nuking or starting war over this incident is a serious overreaction. The Chinese haven't kidnapped anyone, they're detaining US personell for a bit, part because they want to and in part because Chinese red tape is thicker than in most places.
And I don't buy the idea that it was an intentional ramming.
Starting WWIII over a plane with some senitive gadgets on it is not the way to go.
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"
[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 04-04-2001).]
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Toad:
Recon is a risky business, even if there are unwritten 'rules' how to do it.
If you didn't notice, communist dictatorships have had a bad reputation with following the rules..
As long as it's their backyard, they do whatever the damn pleases them. Tapping on their cellular calls etc. should piss them off.. Like you said, crews were lost on a regular basis during the cold war. The only difference now is that they made it public.
Now don't take me wrong, I'm not saying what they did was justified, no. I'm just saying that these encounters come as no surprise to anyone involved in the business.
And they will go to war if necessary. Simply put, theyre mad. The only hope lies in the US ability to be above their madness. I'm pretty damn glad that Eagler is not (I hope) George W writing in disguise LOL.
Thank God most of the government have more brain than likes of him..
Eagler: balls (_)(_) - brain .
When dealing with madmen its wise to keep a certain distance.. This crew got in too close and got bit.
They knew the risks involved and signed the EULA of this game.
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S!
Maybe a too strong term "bullying around and use military action".But this has been the way US handled many situations and every president since Bush Sr.(and some before him) has had a war of his own (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) It is the politics that will do the trick here,not the war machine.Ain't the safety of the crew more important than a piece of replaceable hardware?And I can put up a bet,that we don't know a squat what REALLY is going on behind the scenes or what really happened there.The media tells what they are told by the officials,but nothing more...
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DB603
3.Lentue
Lentolaivue 34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34/)
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BUT how do you think Russia would react if we nuked their neighbor? They'd probobly nuke us in return.
Yeah... And Russia is soooo pally with China - best flipping friends they are./sarcasm mode off/
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According to International Law, as I understand it, China had no right to board and inspect that aircraft
Hmm.. I seem to remember a certain Mig 25 Foxbat which landed in Japan a few years ago.
No doubt, the US (which ALWAYS acts in accord with International Law), made no attempt to inspect the aircraft at all? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Chapter 13, verse 11
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Originally posted by Jekyll:
Hmm.. I seem to remember a certain Mig 25 Foxbat which landed in Japan a few years ago.
that's different jekyll, we had a very good and patriotic reason for disassembling that mig, after all it was russian and russians are evil so bending the law is ok - this is entirely different, the chinese are also evil so bending their bending of the law will not be tolerated. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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"If they rammed us, it's an act of war..."
And if it was vice verca?
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
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Maniac, If We rammed them? lessee now big slow ungainly recon plane vs small fast nimble fighter = They suck.
Get serious.
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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Yikes!
This could raise the price of my next Saitek combo !
Now that's something to worry about (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Anyone else notice what's absent from the national news lately? The never ending flow of poll results. Nice to have a President who doesn't flap around in the wind basing his policy or lack thereof on the latest pollsters analysis..
waiting & watching, what else is there really to do as we are just observers.
Eagler
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Because that plane should not have landed at Chinese airport. Period.
mx22
Originally posted by Toad:
Mx, why should the US be embarassed?
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DB603, I interpeted this "president of US stops bullying to mean you think Bush has been "bullying" in this incident. I would disagree with that; I think he's been pretty restrained so far.
Jekyll, Fish do you also remember that Viktor Belenko DEFECTED with his Foxbat? Bit of a TOTALLY different situation under International law when compared to an aircraft in distress. Oh, you didn't remember that part? How con-veeeeeen-ient.
Maniac, if we rammed them it was either the most amazing feat ever performed by an EP-3 (chasing down an F-8) or it is an example of an F-8 pilot not paying attention to the job at hand.
Remember, when the Chinese interecept over International Waters they assume the responsibility for the separation of aircraft. It is THEIR responsibility alone.
So, MX, the US should be embarassed because one of its aircraft, which experienced a mid-air when intercepted by Chinese fighters in International Airspace, was so damaged that it had to land at the nearest airfield?
The US should be embarassed because the Chinese, signatories to all the International Civil Aviation Organization treaties are not abiding by the parts that cover aid and assistance to an aircraft in distress?
Is that why the US should be embarassed?
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Originally posted by Toad:
Fish do you also remember that Viktor Belenko DEFECTED with his Foxbat? Bit of a TOTALLY different situation under International law
how? what law would cover it in that situation? it is stolen russian property and they demanded that it not be touched. what right did we assert in diassembling thier aircraft against their wishes - salvage law? not hardly, it wasn't abandoned it was stolen. which specific international law let us disassemble their aircraft?
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the law of allied opportunism.
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MX, they should be embarrased because they landed, and lived?
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IIRC, the Japanese government impounded Belenko's Foxbat on the grounds that the defecting pilot did not have the
correct documents and papers for importing military hardware into Japan. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Note that Belenko DID NOT declare an emergency situation.
You may not be able to distinguish the difference, but it's there.
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not convinced
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Toad -
You won't get any argument from me about China. They are very much a 'rogue superpower'. But foreign policy should take this into account, and they shouldn't be treated as any other state. It was almost inevitable that this was going to happen, considering Bush's recent comments regarding China being a 'competitor'. Considering the military might on either side, such a comment also has military connotations that China couldn't possible mis-interpret.
You ask why no advice for the Chinese. Put simply, we know how Chinese foreign affairs works - but we are just seeing how Bush deals with affairs outside the US.
Furthermore, the US f***** up in Serbia with that errant strike on the Chinese embassy. That really, really was the worst thing you could have done - saying 's*** happens' and shrugging it off is ignorant and downright foolish considering the relations between the US/China.
This attitude will get the US the reputation of 'rogue' superpower very quickly.
The British Empire was a self-serving entitity (using today's standards, which is not a paticularly fair thing to do). Americans assert that the US is the complete opposite, and for the large part it is. But this complacency and arrogance, epitomised by the view that US should do 'what it likes, when it likes' in international affairs is naive and myopic. It is also a danger to global political stability. Ironically, the Chinese approach the world with this exact same attititude.
In this modern world, there is (and should be) responsibility with power - this is something the British Empire never really attained to; it is also something the US could sink to.
Maybe after this Bush will realise the world is a big place, and however large the US has become, it is and always will be one country among hundreds.
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 04-04-2001).]
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Originally posted by mrfish:
not convinced
Nothing would. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I don't want to confuse you with the facts, so I'll stop trying.
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Originally posted by Dowding:
In this modern world, there is (and should be) responsibility with power - this is something the British Empire never really attained to; it is also something the US could sink to.
Maybe after this Bush will realise the world is a big place, and however large the US has become, it is and always will be one country among hundreds.
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 04-04-2001).]
Dowding,
Maybe you should forward this to the Chinese? Might it not apply to them to a far larger degree than the US?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
Excusing their behavior because they are as "known rogues"? Let's see...did that work with Adolph's gang of merry men?
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excusing their behavior because they are as "known rogues"?
It's kind of like if you have a large and rabid dog in your front yard. You don't excuse him for his tendency to bite you on the bellybutton repeatedly, but it is damn sure your responsibility to keep the hell out of his way. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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you are killin me toad (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) i'm going to assume your sarcasm is intended to be good natured.
you actualllllly expect me to believe that we honestly thought belenko was trying to illegally import military aircraft?
are you a lawyer? - if not you should be because respectfully my friend, that is ludicrous-it's one of those capital spin jobs "we gotta say something" even though it does not match actual intent. intent is important imo. finding a neat loophole does not negate the intent. besides, consider the note he handed to japanese guards:
"........As soon as he landed in Japan, the
defecting Russian pilot Victor Belenko attempted to communicate with the Japanese bystanders. He gave them a note in which
he intended to say, “Contact a representative of the American intelligence service. Conceal and guard the aircraft. Do not allow anyone near it.”
oh yeah, i guess they dropped the "i'm trying to import it" part eh comrade...? i can see i wont convince you so i wont try. i'm quite stuck on the position that we are applying a double standard.
my point is that i think everyone should do a little exercise when things like this happen:
how would it be if the situation was reversed?
i dont think people are being honest about their responses.
can you tell me straight faced that if the absolute latest frmr soviet fighter was in front of us right now, emergency declared, that we wouldnt wriggle up an excuse to study it?
"gee i really want to study it but the law sz i'm not s'posta"
you would have a freshly scrubbed boy scout:
"here mr china sir, we found your airplane, we didnt touch nuthin and i even gave er an extra coat of wax free of charge!"
i doubt it, but at this point it doesnt matter so much. things have deteriorated imo. if war comes to war my bullets will be right next to yours and every bit as deadly and committed, make no mistake. until that point i will question everything i hear because leaders lie and good america comes form skeptical americans.
i also want us to play globally and by the same rules we expect others to play by. we'd strip it, we cant expect them not to, we should have given it to them and concentrated on the crew instead of posturing right off the bat. if they didnt play ball we could have always retalliated economoically, at least no lives would be at stake.in fact keeping this a secret altogether would have prevented the need to save face.
nietzsche warned the germans of arrogance in apparant superiority. they didnt heed his warning, and in fact tried to warp his words to support their plans, and look where it got them. just when you think you are on top and winning is the time to be most humble and i dont see that in our country - that worries me because it makes other countries want to say "look at me i', not doing what you say see see". geez what a long boring post - (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Hehe... this has got some people fired up. Look, this is a PURE political situation. There will be NO miltary action. The plane's crew had plenty of time to destroy all the crypto equip thats so sensitive. The rest of the planes equipment beyond that isnt anything they can't get or dont already have. Those MI guys have specific SOP's for this type of situation... and as I said before they had plenty of time to execute it I'm sure.
Those pilots will be coming home... have no fear. The Chinese will "debrief" them some.. but no force will be used. They'll mainly look for a slip or something of political nature they can use. The Chinese have ALOT more to lose than we do.
The Chinese are not fools. They have no intention of becoming involved in a conflict with the USA. They are simply bargining... nothing more.
Batdog
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Fatty and Toad,
Yes this country should be embarassed that its military allowed plane of such importance land on the airfield of a not friendly country. I don't know what that plane carried, but I'm sure that by know China, Russia and whoever else is interested, know what it had, how it operated and etc. That plane should have been ditched in deep waters. And crew? Well, when you join military, you assume certain responsibility and one of them is not to allow such plane get into the enemy hands (say what you want, but I would hardly believe that anyone in the military thought that China was our ally prior to the accident). I'm glad they are alive and I hope they will be released soon, but it is a big blow for US military that such a plane was allowed to be taken intact.
Btw, Toad, you clearly using double standards in comparing this story to Mig-25. US had no right to investigate how Mig worked. It did and you say it's ok. Now American plane is forced to land on Chinese airfield (which it should not have done) and you say it's illigal for them to check it out? I laugh at your argument.
mx22
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Originally posted by mrfish:
you actualllllly expect me to believe that we honestly thought belenko was trying to illegally import military aircraft?
No, you asked what part of international law was relative to the Belenko incident. What I posted is, AFAIK, the "rationale" behind the JAPANESE GOVERNMENT'S DECISION.
If you have other information from your research, please post it. I'm always interested in learning more.
BTW, I'm not sure of your point on this, the ENTIRE QUOTE about Belenko's note:
"As soon as he landed in Japan, the defecting Russian pilot Victor Belenko attempted to communicate with the Japanese bystanders. He gave them a note in which he intended to say, “Contact a representative of the American intelligence service. Conceal and guard the aircraft. Do not allow anyone near it.” Having no knowledge of English, what he actually wrote in the note that he prepared in advance with the aid of a Russian-English dictionary was, “Quickly call representative American intelligence service. Airplane camouflage. Nobody not allowed to approach.” When the Japanese translated the message into Japanese, the meaning that emerged was “Aircraft booby-trapped. Do not touch it.” Obviously, Belenko's linguistic context was different than that of the Japanese bystanders, so he could not communicate his intentions.
If you don't like the rationale used by the Japanese Government, I can accept that. I can tell you this, however, (after registering an automobile with the Japanese government on Okinawa) they have a pretty formidable "red tape" establishment that they take very seriously.
Now did the US and Japan scheme together over the Foxbat? I'm quite sure they did.
This does not, however, change the fact that an aircraft brought in by an admitted defector is quite a different circumstance from one in declared emergency status.
That is what you seem to be unable to accept. Nothing is going to convince you otherwise. So why should I bother?
how would it be if the situation was reversed?
Why don't YOU do a little research and give us some examples of what happened when the "shoe was on the other foot"?
Should be illuminating.
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a little more gas on the fire ...
heard today that they didn't ditch due to damaged flaps which would have made the maneuver highly risky, probably fatal, and the fact that they had women on board that didn't want to mess up their nails or hair (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Eagler
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Isnt anybody listening..err reading. Those guys where going down... they KNEW they where going to land on Chinese soil. They destroyed the crypto equip... its gone. Dont sweat it... its all about face saving now. These guys do these flights/and train train train for this type of situation...they are NOT morons, the Chinese will get little of consequnce from this plane.
batdog
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it's been stated that they had less than 20 min from collision to landing and that the plane dropped over 8k before the pilot regained control. Is that enough time to destroy the equipment?
But that's a mute point at this time, they now have the plane and whatever secrets they could get, it's about the crew. At this point they are hostages. Anyone remember Iran??
We need to tell China we are coming to pick them up and proceed to fly in there with enough firepower that if they get in the way or try to stop us, they are toast. End of crisis.
Eagler
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Batdog,
I disagree.
The easy stuff to destroy you can do pretty quickly. Paper gets shredded, software gets the big magnet treatment a few times.
The hardware, which is equally important, is much harder to destroy. Particularly things like antennae on the exterior. This technology is very expensive and very time consuming to develop.
It's going to be an intelligence windfall for the Chinese.
Can't do much about that though.
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You live in a two story house. You have a huge picture window in your master bedroom. You like to boff your significant other in this bedroom with the draperies open and the bright lights on at 9PM every night.
Now there is a public road on a hill that is level with your master bedroom picture window and it runs past the window just 10 feet away. It's a public right-of-way.
By and by, a crowd gathers every nite and stands on this road watching you and your significant other.
You don't like them watching.
Are they spying or doing recon? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
They are doing Recon.
If you don't like it, pull the drapes and/or turn out the lights.
This is all that goes on in Recon, and just about all the "great powers" do it.
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I have heard that this situation is planned and preped for. The sensative equip can be quicly disabled/destroyed... how I dont know as that was never mentioned. Also as far as time is considered... how long did they have before the plane was actually boarded and the crew left the plane...? I'm simply putting my faith in our guys doing the job. They know the cost of letting this stuff fall into enemy hands... they did the job they where trained to do in the manner they where trained to do. I have faith (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
batdog
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from the road (international airspace)it's recon, from the bushes next to the window (over China) it's spying
shame our own freaking media keeps calling it a "spy" plane instead of a reconnaissance aircraft. Guess it's a ratings thing ..
Eagler
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Toad: FYI looking inside a private house without consent of the owner is eavesdropping and the owner of the house can sue for disturbance of 'home peace' it's an invasion of privacy. Legally the border crosses when the party looking is using the information for his benefit, taking pictures or collecting sensitive information.
Eagler: 'We need to tell China we are coming to pick them up and proceed to fly in there with enough firepower that if they get in the way or try to stop us, they are toast. End of crisis.'
You must be a total idiot to think that you can run to China like its some small country in Bosnia.. You needed the international coalition just to deal with Iraq and Iraq is _small time_ compared to China. Get your head out of your bellybutton man.
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Show me some reference on that please.
Looking is eavesdropping? How interesting.
Even when the homeowner leaves his windows open, doesn't pull the drapes and leaves the lights on? The homeowner has no obligations to protect his privacy?
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Won't it be funny when the Chinese open the computer cases and see "MADE IN CHINA" stamped all over the stuff inside (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerrkorps.com)
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Aw MrSid,
It took me so long to get it there though (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I do believe we need to show our resolve, to hurt them in the pocketbook would big a larger blow and safer too considering own downsized military.
And for the record, the U.S. military didn't need any help with Iraq, strictly politics for everyone to pitch in or appear to pitch in. We didn't need to have our Arab folks hate us evil Americans even more..
Eagler
[This message has been edited by Eagler (edited 04-04-2001).]
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Toad, did you read the first paragraph of my reply?
What do you suggest you do with this 'rabid dog'? Give it a good slap?
BTW, to use this daft 'home owner's privacy' analogy - is it legal to tap someone's phones, monitor their mobile phone broadcasts? That plane IS a spy plane - I've heard it has the capability to monitor EM emissions across the whole spectrum. That would include microwaves as well as radio transmissions, hence mobile phones would not be secure.
I wonder that if China did the same thing and flew recon. planes 12 miles from New York, you'd say they were entitled to? Wouldn't they be intercepted before they got within 200 miles?
During the 80's, Russian Bears would frequently fly over the North Sea/Atlantic around Britain. International airspace, I'm sure, but RAF F3 Tornados armed with Skyflash missiles would 'escort' them away all the same. This is probably what the Chinese were doing, but the pilot made a mistake.
I wonder how often this game plays out over there and we just don't hear about it.
China are in the wrong, but you've got to give them a way to back down, else the toejam could really hit the fan. Maybe not immediately, but very soon.
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 04-05-2001).]
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Toad: I'm not an expert on american laws, but at least in my country it is illegal to look inside another persons home/car if it's done in bad intentions.
For example it's illegal to take binoculars and watch inside your neighbours house (while the guy is beating up the wife and then use that information, even to tell that happened to someone. Although in the case of domestic violation the law suites are dropped by rule.)
In general it's illegal to tap the neighbours phone converstations.. It's illegal to listen through the wall in order to hear what they talk.. It's illegal to check in their livingroom to report which kind of programs they watch..
A persons home is PRIVATE period. Even if the person decides to leave the windows open, it does not mean that he is inviting everyone to take out the binoculars and start spying. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
If two people decide to have sex in their car, you are not allowed to stay outside and watch (wanking? LOL) because the insides of the car is a private area. etc etc..
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Well, to use the "rabid dog" analogy, you call the local Animal Control office and they come pick it up and kill it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Say, Dowding, old Chum, get on the line to the UN's Rabid Superpower office and have them drop round to Peking, will you? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Never works that way, though does it? The rouges seem to run on uninterrupted until they finally slaughter enough people and people notice.
I posted what I would do in another thread. I'd just walk away from this "rabid dog" and let him starve to death on his own. Might take a while, but I'm a patient man. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by Toad:
Well, to use the "rabid dog" analogy, you call the local Animal Control office and they come pick it up and kill it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Say, Dowding, old Chum, get on the line to the UN's Rabid Superpower office and have them drop round to Peking, will you? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Never works that way, though does it? The rouges seem to run on uninterrupted until they finally slaughter enough people and people notice.
I posted what I would do in another thread. I'd just walk away from this "rabid dog" and let him starve to death on his own. Might take a while, but I'm a patient man. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
If the "rabid dog" had one of mine cornered, I'd blow it's brains out and not think twice about it
Eagler
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MrSid, I have no idea where you are from but I suspect the laws are different here. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) That's besides the point, however.
The agreements on what constitutes legitimate "Reconnaissance" and "Intelligence Gathering" are different than Civil Law in a particular nation.
If (in your country) you form a great rock band and you work on your new songs in your back yard, playing very, very loud is it illegal for your neighbor to turn on a tape recorder and record your song? He then listens to it in his own home, for his own purposes, is this illegal?
That's the sort of thing a recon platform is designed to pick up. If someone is broadcasting a signal, it can be picked up a long ways away. Like, far away, in International airspace. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
The one thing you need to remember is that ALL the "powers" engage in Intelligence Gathering. They all do it thus they all pretty much have to allow it.
Example: Nation X routinely flies 20 miles off the coast of Nations Y & Z with unarmed recon planes. Nation X feels this is a vital and legitimate part of their national security.
However, Nation X immediately engages and shoots down all Nation Y & Z aircraft that fly within 20 miles of their coastline.
See how long this would last? See what the end result of such a policy is?
Recon has been going on a long time without many problems. The "new boys" in the game screwed up and don't want to admit it. But they DID screw up. It is the inteceptor's responsiblity to maintain separation. Period. Done deal.
I don't know if these analogies help. But a recon platform is simply a passive receiver. You don't want to be heard and recorded? Don't emit.
The Russians were pretty good at shutting down when we got close btw. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by Dowding:
Toad, did you read the first paragraph of my reply?
Yes, I read it. Have you read what I've posted in this and other threads?
Perhaps that was not a good analogy, but it is close. The intent was to point out that you and only you control what an intelligence gathering platform can find out about you. It's YOU that don't understand intelligence gathering, Dowding.
"Spy plane" is just so much inflammatory rhetoric. That type aircraft is basically a large array of antennae all coupled to recording devices. "Spy" connotes an illegal or disreputable activity, you know it and that's why you use it. It is incorrect terminology.
If you emit (radiate) you essentially have little or no control over where the signal goes. Particularly when one considers "skip". They say our TV shows are being broadcast to the entire Galaxy, correct? (We better hope no one is watching! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) )
You are absolutely correct in one thing. Nothing that you broadcast is truly "secure". If someone has the right antenna in the right position, your transmission can be captured and deciphered later. That is the whole basis of intelligence gathering, by land, sea and air.
And there's not one thing illegal about it. All "powers" do it. As long as you do it from International Airspace, Seaspace or your own space. Oh, yes, Dowding, there are "listening posts" in the US that monitor broadcast overseas transmissions. But you knew that, right?
It you emit it and someone is interested, it will be recorded. Bank on it. It's not illegal, either. Why do you think encryption exists, for pete's sake? Why do you think entire agencies exist to DECRYPT signals?
"I wonder that if China did the same thing and flew recon. planes 12 miles from New York, you'd say they were entitled to? Wouldn't they be intercepted before they got within 200 miles?"
Of course. I've already said this here or in other threads. There's nothing illegal about intelligence gathering in international airspace.
HOWEVER, if a US interceptor had a mid-air with the recon platform, it would be the fault of the interceptor; they are responsible for maintaining separation.
"During the 80's, Russian Bears would frequently fly over the North Sea/Atlantic around Britain."
Again, check my other posts. Those same Bears came through the GIUK gap, down the East Coast of the USA and deployed to Cuba. Then they returned home the same way. Nothing illegal, no protests from the US and NO MID-AIRS.
"I wonder how often this game plays out over there and we just don't hear about it.
I played this game from 1975 to 1980 in an RC-135, Dowding. I think I know how it was played.
It happens routinely ALL AROUND THE WORLD. What doesn't happen routinely is that the intecepting pilot FAILS HIS FORMATION CHECKRIDE.
China are in the wrong, but you've got to give them a way to back down,
They can back down simply and gracefully by releasing the crew and the aircraft.
Why isn't the whole world pointing this out to them, eh?
Instead its "Bush this, Bush that, Bush is elevating tensions."
BS.
He's been MORE than patient and diplomatic.
Go rag on the Chinese a bit. THEY are the problem, not us.
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 04-05-2001).]
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Well I'm doing my part!! I am now, as well as a few from my office, officialy boycotting anything remotely related to china. No more chinese buffets, no more cheap toejam.
The more I think about it the more I realize this is the right way to handle this. Stop trading with them period. Here in Texas we have a large 3rd world nation just to our south. I'm sure they would love to pick up the slack. Why we do business with communist is beyond my knowledge, I just don't understand why we have cowtowed to these people for so long. We should all say screw em!
I bet if you went over there and asked the averaged china man who the AVG was he wouldn't be able to tell you. And after you told him who they were and what they did he'd probobly call you a liar!
Udie
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Udie
just like Tom Clancy's latest eh? It was America's boycott, in the book, that pushed China to attack Russia to avoid economic starvation.
Eagler
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Firstly, there are now about three threads on this subject - I don't have much time online these days, so it's hard to keep track. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
"Spy plane" is just so much inflammatory rhetoric.
"Spy" connotes an illegal or disreputable activity, you know it and that's why you use it. It is incorrect terminology.
I don't use the term 'Spy Plane' to be inflammatory.
Listening to radio and mobile phone transmissions (with the target unaware) is an act of deception, and you know it. Whatever the virtues of doing it may be. Perhaps the term 'spy' is not truly accurate, but these reconnaisance planes do have an element of espionage.
If you emit (radiate) you essentially have little or no control over where the signal goes.
Yeah, thanks. Having a Masters in Applied Physics specialising semi-conductors might just have educated me in basic EM physics. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
The crux of this matter is that you are expecting straight talking and logic to be acceptable to China and a suitable way of sorting this mess out. Sadly it isn't. That's why we have the exceedingly dirty game of diplomacy.
Bush is naive if he thinks China will respond to calm reasoning. This is not Europe or some tin-pot dictatorship. This is a country with a tradition of 'face', a country in which children are tought from an early age about the 'humiliation' of China brought about by the evil capitalist Western democracies. This is a country with the worst human rights record anywhere on the face of the planet. They need to handled like grenade with a faulty fuse - with care and consideration.
Sure, they don't deserve it, but this is the real world - a real world solution is what is needed.
I played this game from 1975 to 1980 in an RC-135, Dowding. I think I know how it was played.
Like I ever said that you didn't.
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Originally posted by Dowding:
Listening to radio and mobile phone transmissions (with the target unaware) is an act of deception, and you know it. Whatever the virtues of doing it may be. Perhaps the term 'spy' is not truly accurate, but these reconnaisance planes do have an element of espionage.
HorsePuckey. The "target" is completely aware; there's no surprises in international intelligence gathering with multi-engine aircraft.
The Intelligence Gathering Aircraft file ICAO flight plans that show their route to and from what is called the "sensitive area". These flight plans have times and coordinates.
The countries in the areas of interest know they are coming, it's that simple. The Russians used to shut down their transmitters just as we came into range. They just don't know the range capabilities exactly. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
In short, there's no subterfuge. The flight plans are filed days in advance.
Bush is naive if he thinks China will respond to calm reasoning.
You'd love it if he proposed military action, wouldn't you? Boy, it'd be the US-bashers high tide and green grass! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Sorry, he won't.
But you think we should kiss their butt so THEY can save face right?
They need to handled like grenade with a faulty fuse
Yes, I agree. The way I'd treat a grenade like that is to get as far away as possible and have nothing to do with it.
I hope that's EXACTLY what the US does. It may take us years to unentangle ourselves but that would be my plan. Whatever we get from China, I'm sure other nations would be willing to supply, over time.
Now if you want to hang around and apologize to the grenade, tell it that it's all your fault it has a bad fuse and is psychotic...go ahead. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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The alternative to calm reasoning isn't military action, it's behind-the-scenes away-from-the-media diplomacy. It's how international relations really work.
Who said the US should apologise? Certainly not me.
Why did the Bush electoral campaign include the 'original' concept of treating China as a competitor rather than a 'strategic partner'? Jesus, anyone with half a brain can see the former has always been true compared to the latter, so what was the point of going public with it? The US and China are like chalk and cheese. And before you start blaming everything on Clinton, consider that I'm talking long-term here, i.e. since the 50's. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Start putting restrictions on trade with China, by all means. I dislike immensely the Chinese Communist regime. The only good thing the UK has got out of it is that our arms companies have sold loads of torture devices (such as electric shock batons to analy rape dissident men and women). Nice.
I'm all for financial isolation, but remember that it is American big business who have lobbied hard over recent decades to be allowed to open up Chinese markets. Business wants the trade, and I bet several of the big companies were involved in funding Bush's election campaign. It will be interesting to see how easy he finds it to extricate the US from financial involvement with China.
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 04-06-2001).]
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Bright side of all this is it may finally get our public motivated enough to demand we cut them off. I don't know what they hope to accomplish, but they're woefully close to that now, there are several bills being writtin up presently to cut back on our mutual trade.
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CC, Fatty.
I have begun the process of E-Mailing all the members of Congress and sharing my views on distancing ourselves from the Chinese over the next two decades.
May not amount to much, but at least I feel better. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Y'know, as a bleeding-heart, knee-jerk liberal cry-baby, I really am rather surprised at the mature way the Bush administration is handling this whole crisis.
I'll have to say that I think they are showing a lot of patience and intelligence in dealing with this matter, and are probably making some decent brownie points with not only the rest of the world, but actually, with China too.
I never thought I'd say that without it being a snide, caustic remark, but I'll have to say the 'ol frat rat is doing a lot better than I ever thought he would.
Thank God for cool heads, and calm thinking.
Also the admiral's news conference yesterday, the whole thing about stressing future relations and how important that is to the US, and the continuing dialogue about a military exchange program are exactly the kinds of things that can not only resolve this situation, but make the New Kid on the Block China realize that we're a hell of a lot more fun to have as a friend than an enemy.
All in all, even from the Leftist point of view, so far, these guys ain't doin' too bad.
And I'm a big enough man to admit it.
Mk
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<S> Mk.
You don't often see that on these boards. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by Dowding:
The alternative to calm reasoning isn't military action, it's behind-the-scenes away-from-the-media diplomacy. It's how international relations really work.
Who said the US should apologise? Certainly not me.
Why did the Bush electoral campaign include the 'original' concept of treating China as a competitor rather than a 'strategic partner'? Jesus, anyone with half a brain can see the former has always been true compared to the latter, so what was the point of going public with it? The US and China are like chalk and cheese. And before you start blaming everything on Clinton, consider that I'm talking long-term here, i.e. since the 50's. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Start putting restrictions on trade with China, by all means. I dislike immensely the Chinese Communist regime. The only good thing the UK has got out of it is that our arms companies have sold loads of torture devices (such as electric shock batons to analy rape dissident men and women). Nice.
I'm all for financial isolation, but remember that it is American big business who have lobbied hard over recent decades to be allowed to open up Chinese markets. Business wants the trade, and I bet several of the big companies were involved in funding Bush's election campaign. It will be interesting to see how easy he finds it to extricate the US from financial involvement with China.
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 04-06-2001).]
Good points, Dowding. One thing that always bugged me with Clinton was how he viewed everything in economic terms. Tried to help Russia by shoving our version of a market economy down their throat when they had little to no infrastructure for such an endeavor. China was better at the economic swing due to the use of Hong Kong contractors, but in either case there was no political hooks. Nixon may have been a crook, but he had it right: offer Russia a blank check, but only on condition that a stable democracy is built. Instead, we tried to force Russia to abide by the laws of the world market even if it meant curtailing a freer society. In China's case, we never should have opened business contracts with them.
Free enterprise and democracy are not the same thing.