Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: 1K3 on October 03, 2005, 11:52:31 PM
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:)
My take... equal, BUT 109K has more boost time and spit 14 has a bit more hitting power.
note: i can still kill spit 14s with Gondolas:D
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Spit XIV is perked, Bf109G-10 is not.
Take that for what it is worth.
In my personal experience the Spit XIV dominates the Bf109G-10.
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Spit can turn better, accelerates better (although close down low) and handles high speed better than the 109. I'd say in the hands of someone competent, the Spit Mk. XIV would dominate.
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no question that the 109 will win imo.
the spit 14 is junk, total junk.
maybe IRL the spit has the edge, but in my experience, xo-alt and co-E the 109 stand a far better chance of getting inside the spit and forcing overshoot and stalling snapshots.
i have yet to meet anyone in the AH skies who can really make a spit14 fly good.
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I can...
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Originally posted by SpinDoc1
Spit can turn better, accelerates better (although close down low) and handles high speed better than the 109. I'd say in the hands of someone competent, the Spit Mk. XIV would dominate.
Spit 14 is nowhere close to 109K, La-7, P-51, and 190D in acceleration.
overall spit 14 flies like 109K in full wep power and when WEP runs out it has the same speed as 109G-2/G-6.
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speed and acceleration have very little to do with it.
when it gets down and dirty the 109 should come out on top with equal pilots.
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teh leading edge slats for 109 is a mixed blessing.
PS i always carry Gondolas so that i don't have to play around with my food:D Gondolas is as effective as fork and spoon:)
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Ummm, the Spit 14 has great acceleration. It dominates those late fighters.
Has anyone here really flown this bird?
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Originally posted by mechanic
when it gets down and dirty the 109 should come out on top with equal pilots.
Explain why? The Spit XIV holds almost all the cards. Anything the Bf109G-10 can do, the Spit XIV can do as well or better.
It seems to me that you guys are just saying "My ride is better because I like it." without giving any reasons why it is better. What does the Bf109G-10 use to beat the Spit XIV "once it gets down and dirty?" I ask because my experiences are very different. Once it gets down and dirty the Bf109G-10 is in deep trouble as it has no moves that cannot be easily done by the Spitfire. Turning? Who cares about the slats, the Mk XIV will out turn the 109G-10 either way. Acceleration? Practically the same once mixed up. Climb? Can't get much closer than that. Roll rate, well, the Spit has this one hands down. Speed? Good luck living long enough to start pulling away of you go straight in your 109. Firepower? More than enough to kill the other in both cases, but the Spit's has better ballistics. Visibility? The Spitfire's is better.
What does the 109 do to so easily assure itself of victory?
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Spit 14's suck...If it wasnt for the disgusting stall characterstics maybe more people would fly it
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Will be interesting, especially as on the remodel the Spit 14 is getting 21lbs boost.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Will be interesting, especially as on the remodel the Spit 14 is getting 21lbs boost.
u sure about that? only a handfull of +21s had one for spit 14
EDIT: since u got more inside info on HTC, will 109K also get 1.98 ata boost?
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Originally posted by 1K3
u sure about that? only a handfull of +21s had one for spit 14
This is not english. I think you are saying only a few XIV's ran at +21lbs. That doesn't really seem to be the case though. It would make the XIV a late XIV as opposed to a Summer, '44 XIV.
EDIT: since u got more inside info on HTC, will 109K also get 1.98 ata boost?
The Bf109 is not trying to justify being perked. In this very thread you have everybody other than me saying the Spit XIV sucks and is an easy kill for the Bf109G-10, yet it is the Spit that is perked and the Bf109G-10 that is free.
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I've encountered a few good spit14 sticks,most recently was Lynxx,we fought at 25k and was a great fight ,I only use 20mm in the g10 without gondies,because they greatly affect maneuverability.I won the first fight ,caught him on a rope after 3rd or 4th turn ,he won the second with a good snap shot that hit my radiator and cause me to overheat after afew secs.and go dead stick.I will say as far as I'm concerned the 109g10 will win most fights at this alt. if both pilots are equal.I think that most make the mistake of taking gondulas for the extra firepower but dont realize the adverse affects on maneuvering they have.I actually have more trouble fighting yaks and f4u's than I have against spits.
JB12
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Originally posted by 1K3
u sure about that? only a handfull of +21s had one for spit 14
EDIT: since u got more inside info on HTC, will 109K also get 1.98 ata boost?
Don't know about the 109K, but as no-one yet has conclusively proved the 109k was boosted to 1.98ata, or for that matter recieved the C3 fuel required (see various threads) I would hope not.
I will preempt Kurfurst here - He has shown it was ordered/proposed to convert 3 units March 20 1945. Whether it happened, no-one knows. As of yet he has posted no record of any conversion happeneng.
If it does, then it should be perked same as the Spit XIV.
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id take the spit at 25k hands down..however good luck gettin oponent to engage at that alt longer than 1 pass. the difference in AH is that there alot more good stick 109 pilots because they know a litte more in most cases about acm's. Equal pilots and the spit wins imo
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I'd say its about an even fight, maybe the Spit is a little better.
I don't think the Spit deserves to be perked, actually. And yes, I have flown it... had a couple hundred kills in it if you go by the lifetime stats page (which I think it gone now, shame...)
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Well, one thing is that it is nigh impossible for normal or casual pilots to make the Spit XIV their ride and learn it in detail due to the perk price. Whenever I fly it I am always a Mossie or Ki-84 pilot moonlighting as a Spit XIV pilot. It takes time to get a handle of a fighter, particularly one like the Spit XIV that is work intensive for the pilot. It still feels like the Spit XIV has more potential to me.
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I suppose it could be difficult... but even when it was priced at say 60 points, someone who really wanted to get some time in it could. Flying a plane with an ENY of 40 or up practically guarantees you 8-10 perk points a sortie if you can kill a couple guys before you die. If you figure most people play for an hour or so a day (thats actually probably close, in spite of the super inflated hours some people put up), that'd be 16-20 perk points a day at minimum... and that'd be for someone who only killed 4 planes an hour.
I liked it a pretty fair amount... the guns are great, and the performance isn't anything to sneeze at even without WEP. The plane isn't going to turn like a Spit 5 or a Ki-84, but it'll out-turn most of the '45 rockets. I still don't really feel the perking is justified, but maybe AH will get a Spit in between our current Spit 9 and the Spit 14.
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If current plans prevail, we will get a XVI, which will have lower-altitude based power curves (LF engine, I think?). Not sure if that's "between" or "next to" the spit14.
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It's called the Spit 16, but it's more inbetween the Spit 9 and the Spit 14. It's been debated, but it looks to be like the La7. Borderline perk worthy.
But it's not that hard to make the Spit 14 a standard ride, especially now. Only 16 perks? As long as you are a little bit cautious to begin with, it'll be easy to pick up the further you go.
I see it like the La7. If people really learn how to fly it it, the perk price would go back up. I thought the perk price was fair for it.
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There's really no contest. The only thing the G10 has against most planes is that it can kill in one hit (IF you can hit with the 30mm, or IF you take 3x20mm which makes you fly worse) and can usually rope or zoom or fight in the vertical.
Well, the Spit14 climbs as good as the G10. It zooms as good or better. It plays the vertical game better than the G10 because on top of all of that it can turn better than the G10 any day of the week and three ways from Sunday, and any single ping with the hizookas is a disable/kill.
So basically the G10 has no advantages and has some major deficiencies against the spit14.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Explain why? The Spit XIV holds almost all the cards. Anything the Bf109G-10 can do, the Spit XIV can do as well or better.
It seems to me that you guys are just saying "My ride is better because I like it." without giving any reasons why it is better. What does the Bf109G-10 use to beat the Spit XIV "once it gets down and dirty?" I ask because my experiences are very different. Once it gets down and dirty the Bf109G-10 is in deep trouble as it has no moves that cannot be easily done by the Spitfire. Turning? Who cares about the slats, the Mk XIV will out turn the 109G-10 either way. Acceleration? Practically the same once mixed up. Climb? Can't get much closer than that. Roll rate, well, the Spit has this one hands down. Speed? Good luck living long enough to start pulling away of you go straight in your 109. Firepower? More than enough to kill the other in both cases, but the Spit's has better ballistics. Visibility? The Spitfire's is better.
What does the 109 do to so easily assure itself of victory?
First off the 109 has never been my ride, i fly it in the CT sometimes but i like its roll fighting and stall fighting characteristics alot.
The spit 14 is similar, just with more accuracy and fewer rounds.
the spit has one flap setting, which gives no variable speeds for flaps. either in or out. this is the main problem (imo) with the spit14 and its poor stability issues. almost a total lack of respect for combat flaps which were very well understood at the time of the spit14's production.
your statement; ' I ask because my experiences are very different. Once it gets down and dirty the Bf109G-10 is in deep trouble as it has no moves that cannot be easily done by the Spitfire. ' is clearly a reality for the MA, but you rarely come up against an equally skilled pilot in a 109 when you're flying a spit14, I imagine.
'Turning? Who cares about the slats, the Mk XIV will out turn the 109G-10 either way'
once again in a setup 1 on 1 fight in the DA things will go very differently than you imagine. you cannot base your aircraft values on MA usage alone.
you are correct that the spit is just.....better...., but with an experienced spit pilot vs an equally experienced 109 pilot the fights would certainly be 50 - 50 wins if not 60-70% in the 109's favour.
earlier models, say 109e vs spit1 would be similar
the only place, IMO only of course, where the aces high spitfires shine over the aces high 109s is in the mkV and IX.
100 fights between any 109 and the 9 or 5 would almost certainly end up 80% spits favour with equally experienced pilots.
the spit1 and 14 have weakness that the 109 doesnt, in firepower and engine-mk1- and flap tech and stability-mk14-
just my opinion remember.
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Stability? I've had no problems with this in the Spit 14. Though, I haven't flown the 109g much, I did always have big problems down around stall speeds.
Krusty is right. The only advantage that the 109g has are the snapshots if you take the 30mm. Any spit 14 would have an easy time if they just kept away from the nose of the 109.
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Mechanic, I know what you mean by the instability, but I disagree as to why.
Flaps would not help it. It's more of a center of gravity thing. HTC coded it in (heck if we know why) when in fact the 14 was supposed to fly and turn very much like a 5 did. But we couldn't have that, now could we? That'd be too uber, (no sarcasm intended, I'm serious).
Flaps have nothing to do with spits. They have nothing to do with most fighters. Yes there is evidence that they were used, but if you count the number of sorties, the number of combats, the number of pilots that claim to use flaps (and only 5-10 degress, not full freakin' flaps like AH has) you will find, no doubt, that out of the thousands and thousands and tens of thousands of combat reports, only a small number of pilots and a VERY small percentage used combat flaps.
PS don't forget the spit has split flaps. No way they are going to help you turn better, and they should instantly slow you down by 20mph the second you use them, just due to the split design. Air flow does not move over them as it does drop flaps and fowler flaps. While there is some proof that US pilots used their (different) flaps once in a while, I've never heard ANY tales of RAF pilots using them, ever. :P [correct me if I'm wrong]
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
It's called the Spit 16, but it's more inbetween the Spit 9 and the Spit 14. It's been debated, but it looks to be like the La7. Borderline perk worthy.
But it's not that hard to make the Spit 14 a standard ride, especially now. Only 16 perks? As long as you are a little bit cautious to begin with, it'll be easy to pick up the further you go.
I see it like the La7. If people really learn how to fly it it, the perk price would go back up. I thought the perk price was fair for it.
Thats the BIG problem, people misunderstand the XVI.
It's EXACTLY the same as a 1943 Spit LF IX. Only diff is the engine was a Packard built Merlin 266 as opposed to a Rolls Royce built Merlin 66.
Same power, same everything, still sub 400mph at any alt straight and level, so how you can say it's like the La7 is beyond me.
Borderline perk worthy- In which freaking universe?
It's the mass perk the Ki-84 / P-47N panic frenzy all over again , lol.
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FWIW, I think the Spit 14 pretty well owns the G-10. The big surprise to me was finding that the Ki-84 pretty well owns the Spit 14.
- oldman
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Kev clear your PM's please
Bronk
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Originally posted by 1K3
Spit 14 is nowhere close to 109K, La-7, P-51, and 190D in acceleration.
overall spit 14 flies like 109K in full wep power and when WEP runs out it has the same speed as 109G-2/G-6.
Acceleration at sea level, from 200 mph to 300 mph, measured in seconds. All aircraft at 50% fuel:
Tempest: 27.16 seconds
F4U-4: 28.57 seconds
Spitfire XIV: 28.72 seconds
La-7: 28.78 seconds
109G-10: 28.97 seconds
Looks like the Spit XIV is not just close, but accelerates slightly faster than the G-10.
My regards,
Widewing
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would just like to say something about the spit14 stability.
I looks like the spit14 got additional fuselage fuel, wich are going first when you are on autofuel. This fuel makes the spit14 unstable and sluggish (like the P51B internal fuel if I remember well). Once that fuel is burned you'll have flight characteristics close to the spit9 IMO.
then the G10 is done. The griffon engine (man am addicted) will do the rest, and like someone said, keep out of his nose, and keep it high.
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Noir,
The Spit XIV has the wing tanks and then then normal tanks in front of the cockpit. They are divided into two parts on the Mk XIV model in AH as they were on all Spits in reality. Most Spits in AH lack the divide though.
The Spit XIV does not have a rear fuselage fuel tank like the P-51 has. The tests on Spitfires with rear fuselage tanks found that it introduced exactly the same kind of instability as in the P-51D and fighting with it more than half full was extremely dangerous.
Spitfires with a rear fuselage tank never entered service as they were not needed thanks to the P-51's presence. Had the P-51 not have turned out to be such a great escord fighter, then it is likely Spits with rear fuselage tanks and larger drop tank capacity would have been pressed into service as long range escort fighters. Both the USAAF and RAF did independant tests of Spits with massively increased fuel capacity.
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ok thank you for the precision, but how come the spit14 got more tanks in selector ? different tank sealing ?
edit : I tried offline and spit9's "remaining fuel" is 77, the spit14 is 133, both at 100%. Whatever is my fuel burn rate it shows more fuel in the 14 that the 9.....wrong reading ? Spit14 does fly WAY longer (almost 2X), with bigger engine afterall.
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Those are the wing tanks. If you burn off your wing tanks and leave only the fuselage tanks, you should have the same as the spit9.
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reedit : am stupid and tired, going to bed lol
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Kev, I was under the impression that the Spit 16 performed better than the Spit 9. At least that's what I understood from sifting through all those Spit posts.
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lasersailor,
The Spit XVI will perform better than our Merlin 61 powered Spit F.IX at low altitudes. The Spit XVI performs exactly the same as a Merlin 66 powered Spit LF.IX that we don't have. Saying "Spitfire Mk IX" is kind of like saying "Bf109G", it gives you the rough idea but not the specific performance.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Kev, I was under the impression that the Spit 16 performed better than the Spit 9. At least that's what I understood from sifting through all those Spit posts.
Depends -
Better than our current F IX at low alts (Merlin 266/66) worse than our current F IX at high alts (20k+).
Difference between the high alt Merlin 61 fitted to the F IX and the low alt Merlin 266 fitted to the LF XVI.
Merlin 266 was just an American built Merlin 66, so it performs identically to an LF IX.
Contrary to a previous post even at 5 mins 25lbs boost it is still NOWHERE near the performance of an La7.
Mk XVI with 25lbs boost (we're only getting 18lbs) is still sub 400mph (just) at any alt straight and level.
In fact at about 10k the Seafire III we are getting (18lbs) will be a very close competitor for the XVI.