Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: 1K3 on October 05, 2005, 01:17:32 AM
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I don't have the link anymore and I dont remember the time/place it happenned but i remember that P-51s mis-identified the La-7s as 190s. The La's attacked back and Kozhedub (highest scoring VVS ace) shot down some P-51s.
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Kutscha (MiloMorai) posted this question over on TOCH.
See here:
Kozhedub and P-51s (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=829&highlight=Kozhedub)
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I am somewhat sceptical re sudden revelations some 50 years after the event.
Even more so when this "gun camera film" is purported to come from Kozhedubs La7. If so where are all the countless hours of other gun camera film that must have been taken.
51's attacking La5fn's of the Czech regiment are a matter of record.
The 21 czech La5FN's were operating behind German lines out of secret fields.... the 51's (escorting buffs) had no reason to think Soviet allies were anywhere in the area.
I think the La5FN's basically got bounced...I need to check records but I do not believe the la5FN's returned any fire.
As mentioned on the other site..... the confrontation between Yaks and P38's over Yugoslavia is well documented by both sides.
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The link to the story and guncam pics at 12oclockhigh doesn't work.
I have read this story in Nikolay Bodrikhin's "Stalin's falcons". There were the guncam pictures also. Kozhedub's son gave guncam film to author, and said that after developing the film Kozhedub's regiment political officer gave it to him, saying "Don't show it to anyone!".
One of the P-51 pilots survived and landed into Soviet zone, he was a huge black man, and said that they were shot down by "red-nosed 190s". They probably had no chance to see Red stars on wings...
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Are any of the old Soviet aces still alive?
Anyway have been looking for links and stories from them.
Now what was his name - Polyshkrin or something like that (Spelling definately wrong),- anyway, that guy I'd like to know more about.
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Originally posted by Angus
- Polyshkrin or something like that (Spelling definately wrong),- anyway, that guy I'd like to know more about.
I believe he had a biography written.....in Russian..... I would love to read an English translation.
He was far more interesting than Kozhedub.
I have an article which was an interview with Kozhedub where he states that he should have been credited with more like a 100 kills. He was not a modest man IMO.
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I think the incident some are describing over on that other board is the one that took place March 18, 1945 when the 359th FG in their 51s bounced some Yak 9s and LA5s over an airfield that the US pilots still understood to be German when in fact the Russians had recently occupied it. They initially thought the LA5s were 190s and then the Yaks started shooting so the fight was on until identities could be confirmed.
No Mustangs lost and they claimed 9 planes shot down in the air and two on the ground, mostly Yak 9s. The airfield was at Zackerick, north of Kustrin,Germany.
The P38 incident was November 7, 1944 when Lightnings of the 82nd FG shot up a Russian convoy in Yugoslavia and were bounced by Yaks. 3 P38s down and 3 Yaks down.
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Originally posted by Guppy35
The P38 incident was November 7, 1944 when Lightnings of the 82nd FG shot up a Russian convoy in Yugoslavia and were bounced by Yaks. 3 P38s down and 3 Yaks down.
Yaks climbed to the 38's which were stacked at 3 sets of altitude IIRC.
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Originally posted by Tilt
Yaks climbed to the 38's which were stacked at 3 sets of altitude IIRC.
OK bad choice of word :)
The Yaks came to the defense of the convoy and "attacked" the 38s. The 38s started it all by shooting up the Russian convoy by mistake.
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Originally posted by Tilt
I believe he had a biography written.....in Russian..... I would love to read an English translation.
He was far more interesting than Kozhedub.
Red Ant worked on translation of Pokryshkin's book. I don't know how the things are going now, it was maybe 5 years ago.
Originally posted by Tilt
I have an article which was an interview with Kozhedub where he states that he should have been credited with more like a 100 kills. He was not a modest man IMO.
Kozhedub died in 1991, and I don't know if he gave any serious interviews.
Soviet aces scores are usually lower then actual achievements. Pokryshkin's first 15 kills were "lost" when his regiment staff burned all the papers before retreat in 1941. His actual score must be something like 77 kills.
Kozhedub was not a tactic, but a "technical" dogfighter, relying on his skills and superiour airplane control.
There are legends that he scored at least 5 kills in Korea, where he was a CO of 176th GvIAP, and was prohibited to make combat flights...
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Originally posted by Angus
Are any of the old Soviet aces still alive?
Anyway have been looking for links and stories from them.
Now what was his name - Polyshkrin or something like that (Spelling definately wrong),- anyway, that guy I'd like to know more about.
We have arranged a meeting with Fedor Fedorovich Arhipenko, 44 kills. Interesting man, very vigorous and talkative, instead of 2 hours we spent 5, and he still wanted to talk to us some more...
Vitaliy Ivanovich Popkov is also a frequent guest at Moscow flightsim events.
There were some links to translations of interviews with Soviet aces, I think they were posted here already. There are some people who interview them about air combat, planes and tactics, some things are real revelations, like the fact that I-16 was not a coffin, and in some cases much better then "modern" fighters.
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Originally posted by Guppy35
The P38 incident was November 7, 1944 when Lightnings of the 82nd FG shot up a Russian convoy in Yugoslavia and were bounced by Yaks. 3 P38s down and 3 Yaks down.
I have read an official Soviet report on that October Revolution Day accident near Nish. It was quite different from what I have read in popular books. At least Koldunov (top Yak ace, PVO commander in chief in the 80s) didn't score any kills... Let me look for a source...
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http://forum.sukhoi.ru/showthread.php?t=30333
3 Yaks lost, two pilots killed (one of them was shot down by Soviet AAA). 5 P-38s shot down according to ground observations.
Conclusion is interesting: P-38 has a serious advantage in horisontal maneuvers, Yak-9 is better in vertical.
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Originally posted by Boroda
We have arranged a meeting with Fedor Fedorovich Arhipenko, 44 kills. Interesting man, very vigorous and talkative, instead of 2 hours we spent 5, and he still wanted to talk to us some more...
Vitaliy Ivanovich Popkov is also a frequent guest at Moscow flightsim events.
There were some links to translations of interviews with Soviet aces, I think they were posted here already. There are some people who interview them about air combat, planes and tactics, some things are real revelations, like the fact that I-16 was not a coffin, and in some cases much better then "modern" fighters.
Perhaps you should consider getting some of that stuff published, boroda. There is a market for first-hand accounts in publications such as WINGS, AIRPOWER, and AVIATION HISTORY. Those guys are howling for new material, and frankly US coverage of Soviet pilots and planes has suffered from the former political situation and language issues.
regards,
shubie
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There was a great article about the 359th FG's fight with the Russians in the first issue of some aviation magazine a few years ago. It had a B-2 on the cover. Think it was a French publication and it folded (probably after featuring an article on the Luftwaffe). I will see if I can find it when I get home tonight.
I was at the Champlin Museum in Arizona in 1992. There was a really well done artwork of the P-38s attacking the Russian convoy with the Yaks bouncing them. I was unaware of the incident until then.
Wonder what happened to all the art when the museum closed down.
Cheers,
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Originally posted by Boroda
One of the P-51 pilots survived and landed into Soviet zone, he was a huge black man, and said that they were shot down by "red-nosed 190s". They probably had no chance to see Red stars on wings...
Black?I never knew there were black pilots in ww2.
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^ Your Kidding, right?
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No,honestly.i had no idea
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/N22/la-7.jpg)
That was his
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Originally posted by Boroda
http://forum.sukhoi.ru/showthread.php?t=30333
3 Yaks lost, two pilots killed (one of them was shot down by Soviet AAA). 5 P-38s shot down according to ground observations.
Conclusion is interesting: P-38 has a serious advantage in horisontal maneuvers, Yak-9 is better in vertical.
82nd FG History lists 3 38s down.
P38L-1 #44-24035
Pilot Lt. Phillip Brewer (95th FS) KIA
P38J-15 #43-28062
Pilot Lt. Eldon Coulson (95th FS) KIA
P38L-1 #44-24392
Pilot Capt. Charles King (96th FS) Evader
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Originally posted by Boroda
We have arranged a meeting with Fedor Fedorovich Arhipenko, 44 kills. Interesting man,
27 IAP later 129 GIAP flying P39's as well as FF Arkhipenko (30 personal kills 14 "fractional") it featured Gulayev with 57 (full)victories 3rd highest Allied ace.
Mystery to me is what aircraft they flew before being equiped with the P39's
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Originally posted by ATA
No,honestly.i had no idea
http://tuskegeeairmen.org/MainFrameset.htm
In April 1944, the 332nd Fighter Group transferred to the Adriatic Sea side at Ramitelli Air Strip, near Foggia, Italy and began conducting long-range heavy bomber escort missions for the 15th Strategic Air Force. In July 1944, the 99th Fighter Squadron was transferred to Ramitelli and the Group became the only four-squadron fighter group performing bomber escort missions in the 15th Air Force. This was a significant factor in the effectiveness and success of the Group as it established the incredible and unprecedented record of flying all of its bomber escort missions (200 over most of central and southern Europe) without the loss of a single bomber to enemy aircraft.
The 99th Fighter Squadron received two Presidential Unit Citations (June-July 1943 and May 1944) for outstanding tactical air support and aerial combat in the 12th Air Force before joining the 332nd Fighter Group. The 332nd Fighter Group received the Presidential Unit Citation for its longest bomber escort mission to Berlin, Germany, March 24, 1945. They destroyed three German ME-262 jet fighters and damaged five additional jet fighters without losing any of the bombers or any of its own fighter aircraft to enemy aircraft.
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Originally posted by Tilt
27 IAP later 129 GIAP flying P39's as well as FF Arkhipenko (30 personal kills 14 "fractional") it featured Gulayev with 57 (full)victories 3rd highest Allied ace.
Mystery to me is what aircraft they flew before being equiped with the P39's
Fedor Fedorovich mentioned Yak-1s. We met him in summer 2003 IIRC, the problem is that we got drunk after the meeting and Flying Barans lost the digital video camera with a tape :( (I told them to watch the bag with camera before I left, they took it to the cab repeating "Boroda told us not to leave it here" and then forgot it in a cab :() There must be another analog tape, but I don't know the guy who had it. Anyway, we supposed to talk for 2 hours, and didn't have enough tapes for five hours...
We followed his advise too close: when he left us he said: "OK, guards (gvardeytsy), remember this rule: 100 is not enough, 200 is too much, let it be 150, but three times!"... I calculated an amount of vodka we had that evening, it was exactly 450ml per face... :rolleyes:
Fedor Fedorovich was in a great shape, at that time he was still working for some construction company, he only was a little sad because doctors don't let him smoke and drink any more...
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best mistaken id is when a flight of japanese navy attack a/c tried landing on a us carrier, like 15 of the 18 were shot down by AA.
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Czech (slovak) Incident 7 October 44
32 P51's of 52nd Fighter group escorting 6 B17G to Tri Duby attacked 4 La5FN's and slightly damaged one flown by Sub Lieutenant Frantisek Sticka. Mistook them for FW's
Tri Duby was the main Slovak Partizan air base where the La5FN's based them selves.
The B17's were en route to collect rescued US airmen.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Fedor Fedorovich mentioned Yak-1s. We met him in summer 2003 IIRC,
Thanks....... in summer 2003 he was 81 years old (82 in October)
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What the hell is up with USAF always atacking allies?
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What the hell is up with USAF always atacking allies?
Why don't you take the time to research friendly fire incidents in WW2 before asking ignorant questions.
This is not something unique to the USAAF.
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Friendly fire incidents were widespread in WW2 amongst all the combatants. In those days, newspapers and reporters were highly censored, and any stories of such incidents were ruthlessley quashed.
Sometimes the "blue on blue" was with an allied country. It was not uncommon. The only measure against it was the Mk.I eyeball, and good recognition skills.
There is a famous account in the early days of the BoB of the RAF having a clash between Hurricanes and Spitfires.
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The Battle of Barking Creek
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Originally posted by Bruno
Why don't you take the time to research friendly fire incidents in WW2 before asking ignorant questions.
This is not something unique to the USAAF.
Oh,i'm sure if Reds atacked fellow Americans in WW2 we'd would know all about it,USA would make sure of it .
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Originally posted by ATA
Oh,i'm sure if Reds atacked fellow Americans in WW2 we'd would know all about it,USA would make sure of it .
Those of us who have done some reading and learned a bit of history are well aware of the incidents.
They aren't hidden.
I think that was Bruno's point.
You have no knowledge of the Black pilots of the Tuskeegee Airmen, which is very common knowledge and then you imply that somehow we've hidden friendly fire incidents in WW2.
Me thinks you are pointing the finger in the wrong direction :)
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Originally posted by Guppy35
You have no knowledge of the Black pilots of the Tuskeegee Airmen, which is very common knowledge and then you imply that somehow we've hidden friendly fire incidents in WW2.
Me thinks you are pointing the finger in the wrong direction :)
It is common knowledge for americans,but not for me,person who never saw black guy before moving to USA.
So please forgive me:cry
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so...
Did P-51s realy go head to head with VVS's ultimate fighter... La-7?
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Yes, exchange of insults "Runstang!" and "LAmers!" were the start of the bad blood between USA & USSR
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Oh,i'm sure if Reds atacked fellow Americans in WW2 we'd would know all about it,USA would make sure of it .
Friendly fire incidents aren't hidden. There are far to many public examples (to many to list here) for that to be true. They happened on all sides and between co-belligerents / allies.
The problem with your questions is you don't seem to have the basic understanding of WW2 history. Your asking questions that appear more as trolls rather then serious (at least in wording).
Black pilots in WW2...?
Most folks on this forum don't have an issue with answering questions but some of what you seek can be found with a simple goggle search, that is if you are self-motivated enough to look.
If you are seriously interested I am sure folks will post some links to point you in the right direction. Or just search this particular section of the forum.
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timeout... im kind of lost
When Kozhedub retaliated by shoooting down P-51Ds, was he flying La-7 or La-5FN? DId thois incident occured in 1944 or 1945?
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Originally posted by Bruno
The problem with your questions is you don't seem to have the basic understanding of WW2 history. Your asking questions that appear more as trolls rather then serious (at least in wording).
/
You absolutely right,i dont.Thats why i'm asking.
Again sorry if i sound childysh)stupid)
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Originally posted by ATA
What the hell is up with USAF always atacking allies?
Well, do you remember Pokryshkin's first kill in June, 1941? He shot down a Su-2 attack plane, they were not informed about this new plane, all the information was classified. BTW, the pilot of that Su-2 survived and later became a Marshall of Aviation, his family name was Pstygo IIRC.
If you want a good reading in "alternative history" of WWII - try this one: http://www.fictionbook.ru/ru/author/anisimov_sergeyi/variant_bis/
In Anisimov's book "allies" arm nazis and attack Soviet troops in November 1944, formal "casus belli" was an above-mentioned attack on an airfield and armour convoy near Nish. The main assumption in a book is that USSR avoided the catastrophe of 1941. The navy part of the book (Soviet task force of "Soviet Union" battleship, "Kronshtadt" battle cruiser and "Chapayev" escort CV breaking through into Atlantic through Dutch straights and working on "allied" communications) is far from reality, but the rest is very good, much more realistic then "Red Storm Rising". Another book that will never get translated to English :( The final is sad: a resulting border after cease-fire is the same as in our reality, only costing millions of useless deaths...
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Thanks Boroda,very interesting
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slightly o/t (more fyi)
Over on TOCH Author Brian Cull (author / co-author of several books: example :Spitfires Over Malta) posted he is researching friendly fire incidents for a new book.
Follow the link to the thread:
Friendly fire WWII (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=2670)
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Originally posted by Boroda
....Pstygo...
(PST........Y........GO)
Pissed....why - go??
;)