Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Nath-BDP on December 14, 2000, 01:36:00 PM
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1. A major factor in air combat during WW2 was gun barrel overheating and eventual melting of the barrel if the weapon was continually fired for a certain amount of time.
I think that this should be implemented, it was a major factor in WW2 and it would lower the 'spray and pray' tactic. I asked HT once if they were going to add this he said 'no, it wouldn't add much', I disagree.
2. Ejecting brass (shell casings being ejected from weapon)
3. Cloud layer
4. Smoke from firing guns.
5. Updated damage graphics, such as small pieces flying from aircraft that's being shot, similar to what WB has and what is seen in many WW2 gun cam footage.
I think #1 is most important, what do you think?
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Nath_____
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
"It felt as if an angel was pushing..."
-Reponse of Gen. Adolf Galland after flying the fourth prototype Me 262 in May 1943.
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 12-14-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 12-14-2000).]
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Frame Rate. Nuff said.
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How would #1 effect frame rate?
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It wouldn't but I think when I asked HT this at the con, he kept changing the subject to game play, that was while we were drinking though...
Hey, ya got me thinking, the Russian terrain that 10bears has out has cloud layers all the way to the deck, I get better FR than in Main, but that's because the terrain is about 1/2 the size of the Main.
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 12-14-2000).]
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<SALUTE ALL>
Ouch. I hate to say it, but I agree with Nath on these. He is right on most of this stuff.
1. Gun jams / overheat should occur for those who are heavy on the trigger.
2. I don't know what good this would do. I believe for most planes, the ejected brass was never seen by the pilot firing, and at high speed and distance, no one else would either.
3. I love the clouds, but I doubt the majority of computers out there do. big FPS hits on older machines. Wait a while for when the majority has higher power machines.
4. I saw a pilot interview where the pilot said he used his gun smoke to escape from a pair of Fockes. He was being chased and fired at, so he dove and began firing his guns. The Germans must have beleived they got him and turned away to climb back to altitude.
5. This would be nice to see.
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"Wing up, Get kills, Be happy"
Midnight
13th TAS
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Think of it from a programming issue.
1.) Framerate. Biggest factor here.
2.) Takes time.
3.) I believe randomizing the bullet ballistics would tax the connection more.
Nuff said.
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===>Frosty
====>Exposure2k.com
=====>Frosty@exposure2k.com
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So we shouldn't get a feature because it will take a long time? lol, thank god thats not HTC's way or else I wouldn't be paying $30.
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Engine overheat and weapons malfunction for continual fire are the 2 most important.
But that would not please the gamers and, as we are often told, it is only a game.
Too bad, I would really like to have a massive MP WWII flightsim to engage in but, given the small number of balls to the wall simmers out there it just is not going to happen.
Can the overheat and weapons melt feature be added but disabled in the main arena?
Clouds = the more the better and gunsmoke would be good.
Casings and plane parts probably not possible due to Framerate issues not a problem, who has time to look for them anyhow, I am usually too busy looking for thr ripcord.
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1. I think gun overheating was a factor but if guys want to waste all their ammo spraying the skies with bullets I say let em (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) To program overheating in accurately means that it would also have to consider altitude and air temp, relative humidity, etc. Seems like a lot of stuff just to stop "spraying".
2. Are you talking about bomber and tank gun positions? I think the fighters kept the casings in the wings or nose (I'm probably wrong though)
3. Clouds are cool, don't we already have cloud layer?
4. Would be cool looking
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Not just to stop spray and prayers but to add realism, spraying constantly can be a good idea in certain circumstances, there should be realistic penalties for doing this.
Also, adding these affects (including gun jamming, which I forgot to mention), will really make the Hispano 20mm less effective since it was prone to jamming and higher muzzle velocity will make it easier for barrel to melt. These factors were the deciding factors of the success of aircraft weaponry during WWII.
The MG 151/20 is regarded as the best aircraft cannon of World War II, because it jammed less and had a very high ROF, however, reliability doesn't matter with the current system that allows continuos fire without penalties.
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 12-14-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 12-14-2000).]
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lol. There's always an ulterior motive besides adding 'realism'
-Westy
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i agree, though i dont think there should be *random* gun jamming, ie no dud rounds: too much frustration
while i want failures in AH, I only want user imposed failures: gun jams from overheating barrels, engine damage from full throttle too long etcera etcera
i think that strikes a good balance between playability and realism IMO
for the cloud layers, they really dont subtract too much fps, even old software accelerated games had cloud layers -- these clouds are best suited to high alt cirrus clouds above 18k or so, the clouds we have now are more cumulous-like and should be down at low altitudes
btw clouds have NO impact on your framerate if you lower res or color depth.. when flying in a cloudy area i simply bump down from 1600 to 1280 and the fps stays above 50
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In most aircraft shell casings were ejected, save for some bombers like the B17 where some of the guns ejected casings into the fuselage.
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Nath, you forgot both an historical and immersive Factor:
6)- Hispanos jam ramdomly as they used to do in WWII.
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My take on it, from a low-end machine.
1) Barrel overheating? Do you have any idea the amount of the whines that would come from this? Humidity isn't modeled right, there's not enough low temp at 25k. Real can of worms there, and as discod said "seems like a lot to stop spraying."
2) Who'd see flying brass? No one unless you were in the TA or offline. Waste of code and time IMHO.
3) Cloud layers? Already possible by modifying a file, and wreaks havoc on my old system. I'm lucky to see 8 FPS around A6 in this BETA map due to the humongoid cloud layer over it.
4) Smoke from the guns. This could cause one MOTHER of a FR hit if done on every plane. When attacking BUFFs I'm lucky to get 12 FPS, you want to drag that down even more? OTOH doing it for cannons [37mm or larger, like WBs] would be fine. Few of those around anyway, so when you spotted a small brown cloud from a B-25H or Ju-87G it would be a treat.
5) Hmmmm..... If the explosions were ever fixed [look cartoonish] I might go for this. Right now I like the standard hit sprite, but agree with others that they could be expanded on. If you get major pieces blown off an AC [wings and such] you see it. Albeit they are a tad SMALL. You would have to make the blown off part 3x normal size just to see it. My FR is better spent in other areas, like trying to figure out if Rip just flipped me the bird or not.
One thing many people here forget when asking for more of this or that is people like me. Stuck on an old rust bucket that'll push my 109 along at 18FPS. If you want more clouds, make it an option. Want thicker smoke for blown-up stuff, make it an option. Smoke still kills my FR [5 if I'm lucky] as do the clouds. All I see the above doing is chewing up my limited resources. Therefore useless to me in a flying sense as it will not add to, but detract from the game.
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Flakbait
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
"For yay did the sky darken, and split open and spew forth fire, and
through the smoke rode the Four Wurgers of the Apocalypse.
And on their canopies was tattooed the number of the Beast, and the
number was 190." Jedi, Verse Five, Capter Two, The Book of Dweeb
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/custom1.jpg)
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Could also disable the guns in Bombers once the wings are off. How many have been pinged or shot down by these "Death Stars" as they spiral crazily down in flames with all guns blazing?
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Overheating guns is a great idea. I have no idea how they did or did not overheat in real life, but spray and pray could be further castrated by overheating guns.
<edit>
Fury
[This message has been edited by Fury (edited 12-14-2000).]
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Umm... ejecting brass could be seen nicely when firing buff guns. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) or when Jaboing and planes are close together.
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Dammit JimBear, ya got me!
I often ride a bomber in shooting in the hope of maybe getting the guy what done me in.
Have you ever read the story of the B17 gunner who was firing after it sunk below the waves in the North Sea?
As long as the gunner is alive and not totally pinned by whatever forces being exerted on him, he needs no wings to shoot.
OK, no wings and only the manned gun shoots, a compromise.
Like we would actually get any of this stuff implemented anyway.
Come fly the MED, turn off the icons and pretend engine overheat and gun melting is there, I do, MP usually 40-45 max and shoot 3-5 second bursts unless the guy is in the turret with me, then I burn the barrels out.
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When did they put this thing in here and WTF is it for?
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Nath, good ideas. I'd like:
- overheating guns,
- jamming guns during high-g maneuvers,
- smoke from firing guns,
- contrails (sp?) from wings during high-g maneuvers (take a look at B17-II, its very nice),
- pilot's fatigue after continuous high-g maneuvers.
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Yeah, realism... how about a 1000 odd drone bombers that drop when you do.... that happened in WW2 too didn't it?
Seriously, you could go on and on about certain topics of realism... the said gun jams... dodgy rounds... dodgy fuel... engine failiure... chutes not opening... bombs not exploding... windscreen freezing up... blah, blah, blah...
Nexx
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Most of the stuff I have read indicated that guns tended to malfunction at high altitude in the cold air or in high G turns. Bore erosion occurred in direct proportion to the amount of firing but I have never heard of a barrel actually melting on one mission. I'd have to agree that frame rate would suffer with more nitty gritty changes.
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I don't see gun jams as a real stretch or a super rare extraordinaire request.
With all the odd physics modelling HTC have been into, making a simplified gun jamming algorithm shouldn't be too difficult.
And it'd add lot of immersion.
Unlike the formation of b17's suggested, it can actually be implemented without adding AI or any such stuff.
But I fear it's too hardcore for most AH'ers - just as realistic gun counters appear to be.
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.geocities.com/nirfurian/stSanta.jpg)
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The problem with gun jams is that the one-plane or one-country zealots will all insist that "their" guns jammed less than the "enemy's" guns. But AFAIK no data exists to support any such claims. So it would just be another whine fest.
IMHO discoes do a quite effective job of simulating reliability issues and I have no interest in paying for an online sim which subjects users to these effects.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 12-14-2000).]
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Originally posted by Nath-BDP:
Umm... ejecting brass could be seen nicely when firing buff guns. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) or when Jaboing and planes are close together.
Nath.. what are you going to do.. look out the window at your wingman or concentrate on the target?
Let's concentrate on more important immersion factors, like night time and EXTERNAL sounds damit. I hate being deaf!
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"Wing up, Get kills, Be happy"
Midnight
13th TAS
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I said nothing about gun jams in my original post, it was about gun overheating not jams.
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I agree with these points. I'm not in favor of random gun/engine failures (as have been proposed in other threads), but guns should definitely overheat if you aren't firing short controlled bursts. This ain't the infantry, you can't swap out barrels in the middle of a fight. There should be a danger of melting barrels if you are spraying too long.
Cloud layers should definitely be implemented, as well as contrails when up hi (dunno, about 25k or so??). IMO, smoke from guns and ejecting brass would be nice eye candy, but they are less important. Some other gameplay issues that need to be addressed:
[list=1]
- Sometimes aircraft are viewable sans icon when under your nose or on your low six. They flash in and out of view sporadically. They should be obscured by your airplane, but they aren't. Surprise attacks from below don't work when a flashing plane image is visible.
- Hit sprites still flash across your instument panel when you are pulling lead and the bandit is below your nose. Sorry but that's gotta go.
- When you shoot a bandit from his dead six, you should be in danger of colliding with debris unless you break off. If debris hits you, it should damage your AC.
- Attacks from the sun! When will we have a blinding sun flare???
- Aircraft in "dot range" should blend with the terrain or sky a little better, instead of being an obvious black dot. Contrails would make spotting strato buffs easier, especially when radar is down.
[/list=a]
(http://www.jump.net/~cs3/sigs/uns_sig.jpg) (http://www.jump.net/~cs3)
"I opened up at approximately three hundred yards, at fifteen thousand feet, and immediately the canopy and parts of the fuselage around the pilot blew off. Both engines caught on fire at the same time. The Me 210 flipped to the left and then to the right, which made me pull to the right to avoid hitting him. A piece of the e/a caused battle damage to the leading edge of my right wing. I passed so close to the open cockpit, that I could see the pilot sprawled out in such a manner that I believed him dead. I saw the gunner frantically trying to get out, and a few seconds later saw a large object leave the plane. The plane went down in a spiral, with both engines burning."
--Lt. George Hall, 63rd FS, 5 Nov 43
[This message has been edited by Sancho (edited 12-16-2000).]
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I agree Nath. Oh btw, gun barrels overheating is a part of gun jams.
Oh yeah and acid is fun to fly on. <G>
-SW
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an interesting aside , as the barrels get hotter accuracy goes to crap fast so even one long burst and you can see the effects on most light barreled wepons .would lend another benifit to carful gunnery .
and jamed guns on most planes could be cleared im shur that could be emulated simple clear command or button . sounds like a cool idea
and hispanos by all acounts jamed alot (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Good point towd - spray'n'pray should be a pointless exercise because of that very thing.
AKSea - guns jam in the repeating mechanism - barrel heating has very little to do with it.
Nath - B-20 knocks the socks off any German 20mm, VYa-23 - knocks the socks off just anything (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
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Not MG213 but then those werent ready for the war, not that it was their fault. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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The gun jamming should not be random, it should occur based on the length of time the trigger is pulled. There are several older games that used this feature. As long as you held the trigger, the gun temperature would rise. If it reached red-line, the guns would jam and you would have to wait a few seconds before you could fire them again. It's a simple thing, avoids having guns permanantly jammed for the entire flight and should satisfy both sides...
1. Realism guys: It will reduce the spray and pray
2. Gamer guys: This feture I described is mostly from arcade games: Cobra Command, Sky Hawk, etc.
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"Wing up, Get kills, Be happy"
Midnight
13th TAS
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> 3. Cloud layer
I want them...
altostratus, altocumulus, and cirrous would be cool.
-Mitsu
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Originally posted by AKSeaWulfe:
Oh yeah and acid is fun to fly on. <G>
-SW
hmmm...yeah, but do your tracers giver you even more tracers?
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Good idea, ever fire a .50cal? , try putting 20 rounds only through one then grab the barrel, you'll leave 1/2 the skin from your hand on it. Once while firing a m60 the barrel eventually melted and "drooped" nearly 20mm , the whole time I had to lower the butt to compensate , then also the rounds cook off by themselves at times unless you clear it.
[This message has been edited by carl (edited 12-15-2000).]