Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: 1776 on April 04, 2001, 12:58:00 AM
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I have a feeling that it will be up to the US to devise a plan for China to "save face" regarding the accident. I say accident because I believe it was just that, unintended. That being said, Bush's statement today at 3pm central has informed the Chi-coms that it is time to return the crew, no ifs ands or buts.
How will the Chi-coms react? Good question (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
This whole thing is now in the political arena and must be causing some tension in high places in China. They have too much to lose if they let this get beyond what it is at now, but I'm sure there are hawks in China too!!
Awaiting the next Chi-com move with interest. Who blinks?? Does GW back down or do the Chi-coms?
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http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1130791615 (http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1130791615)
not appreciated by all I am sure, but... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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China has stated that they demand an apology first before releasing the 'hostages'. I say we start a boycott on all Chinese made goods. I personally have already begun.
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Same here Ripsnort.
-Westy
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Rip, I'm with ya on this one. From this moment on, no more opium!
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Bush's latest comments make it very difficult for the Chinese Premier to back down. There are many, many people in his government who are more anti-American than him.
He could be out on his ear, if he loses face over this, thus making negotiations much more difficult.
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Welp, I like my APEX dvd player, but if it comes to it I'm willing to go with Phillips next time (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Well, I'm really not taking a side on this one, anyone remember the Mig25 we held, and dismantled, from the Russians?
We expect everyone to adhere to a 12 mile buffer in regards to their borders, but we expect others to adhere to our 200 mile buffer, as China does...double standard for the USA?
My only gripe is the crew at this point, let them go, they are only pawns in this latest cold war thats brewing.
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Nope, Rip, we use a 12 mile zone for transit use of airspace and sealanes.
I think you may be talking about the 200 mile fishing rights zone.
The Foxbat was impounded by the Japanese, not us, because Belenko "did not have the
correct documents and papers for importing military hardware into Japan."
You may remember he blew a tire and went 800 feet off the runway as well. I don't know the facts, but I remember the case being made that damage and/or runway length at Hakodate precluded flying it out, thus the disassembly of the aircraft. The Japanese did invite the US to participate in the disassembly.
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Dowding,
You're giving lots of commentary and opinion on what/how the US is doing.
Give us a bit of critique on how the Chinese are doing. I'm sure you want to be fair.
If Bush is making it hard for the Chinese, are the Chinese making it easy for Bush?
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Toad, I think Dowding is looking at it in a practical sense. It's pretty much certain that the Chinese will behave in an unreasonable and quite predictable manner, dictated by internal politics, so it's up to the US to use some smarts to get this thing resolved. That's why he's holding the US to a higher standard.
And yes the boycott starts now. I should have done this a long time ago, and now is a good time to start.
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Funked,
I'm simply trying to focus attention on where the problem really lies.
This thing should have been over 12-24 hours after it happened.
There is one sovereign nation holding 24 citizens of another sovereign nation hostage.
...and all we get is sermons on how Bush should speak?
Again, where does the problem really lie? Where should world attention be focused? What nation should be getting the sermons?
But nooooooooooooooooo....
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Toad, I'm pretty sure our US airforce would not let the Chinese fly surv. planes 12 miles off our shores, would we?
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Rip,
I don't know why not, except that they don't seem to emphasize long range recon in their air forces. Apparently they only have a few IL-28's modified for recon and they may be retiring those.
http://mylima.com/airforce/c2.htm#CHINA (http://mylima.com/airforce/c2.htm#CHINA)
Anyway, we let the Russians do it all during the Cold War. TU-95 Bears D's as I recall, came down the East Coast, deployed to Cuba. Flew sorties in the Gulf, flew sorties up the East Coast. Eventually returned up the East Coast and home at the end of the deployment.
http://www.fortunecity.com/marina/seafarer/665/soviet-01.html (http://www.fortunecity.com/marina/seafarer/665/soviet-01.html)
"Radar sites, including the Montauk Air Force Station, occassionally tracked the big Soviet bombers as they made long range flights along the east coast on their way to and from Cuba and other destinations."
Same thing I did out of England, Alaska, Okinawa and Greece.
I'll wager the Chinese are doing it now around Japan, Taiwan and other areas in their sphere of interest. All major powers do recon and it's a good thing.
Suprises cause wars. That's why everyone is watching everyone else to begin with. The US allows these flights in the same way we execute them.
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Rgr, thks for reply.
<S>
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Why fly off the US coast and gather electronic signals, instead, rent an RV and drive around the whole country gathering intelligence info. That's the difference. You wouldn't get away with that in China, hell, you couldn't even hold a picnic without informing the local party "administrator".
-Soda
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Ok, here comes the tacky questions no one else seems to have asked, much less answered...
I thought all US Spy Planes and crew were supposed to destroy their craft, equipment and injest that little poison pill they carry around? I've talked to a few friends that flew SR-71s and the type, and they are kinda perplexed that a gem of a US Spy Craft would opt to go land in "enemy" territory rather than ditch the bird.
Personally, and Im sure I stand alone on this, I do not understand why they didnt ditch. Its one thing to rescue a crew at sea and such, and have a valuable aircraft destroyed and sunk. Its another thing to land at a hostile base and expect them to honor UN and International Law, especially when history shows they tend to not do as they say they will.
I've got my asbestos suit on, flame away (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Paul J. Busiere
Aces High Arena handle: BD5Pilot
http://bd5.checksix.net (http://bd5.checksix.net)
BD-5 "T" (TurboProp) 90% complete, first flight in 2001 (We hope!)
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Well, for starters it's not a spy plane. It doesn't sneak over, avoiding or trying to outrun anything that tries to intercept it. It's there in the open for everyone to see, and nobody disguises what it is.
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...and that "spy" thing is an important point with respect to the mental state of the hostages.
You can bet every time the media uses the word "spy" that the interrogators play the tape for the crew and make threats.
It gives the interrogator an edge. Wish they would stop that.
LePaul what you are talking about is called "Tactical Doctrine". It's the in-house "rules of the game" for Recon flights. Each service has its own and they may be airplane specific.
In the old Cold War days, the Tac Doctrine was pretty much what you suggest. Who knows what it is now.
I have to believe that the EP-3 was in contact with their mission supervisor who was sitting behind a desk somewhere.
If questions are asked, that's the person to start with.
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Originally posted by Toad:
...and that "spy" thing is an important point with respect to the mental state of the hostages.
You can bet every time the media uses the word "spy" that the interrogators play the tape for the crew and make threats.
It gives the interrogator an edge. Wish they would stop that.
BINGO!!
I can only guess that the term "reconnaissance aircraft" would not draw as many ratings or the media fears the general public is too stupid to realize what type of aircraft that is...
Eagler
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Toad, the Russians still do the same kind of flights that the EP-3 was doing, just not as frequently as they used to. And they still have some "trawlers" to follow our ships around, and just last Fall they ran a mock attack on a CV group. This stuff has gone on since the end of WW2 and normally nobody gets hurt, as long as everybody stays within the required geographical boundaries. Unfortunately it seems most of the old pros are gone and the new kid on the block doesn't know how to play the game too well yet...
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Apparently one of my neighbors was on that plane. I got home last night from work after being gone all weekend to discover TV news vans all over the place. I asked my sister what the deal was and she tells me that they are hanging around the neighborhood because one of the hostages lives in our area.
I dont know the guy or anything but its about time that an end was found for this situation. Then maybe the news crews can get back to doing something more constructive. I understand all of them wanting to do a live shot from the front yard of one of the hostages just for the shock value, but I dont think they are helping the family any by hanging out all night and day.
It was really strange to me this morning as I left for work to realize how "newsworthy" it is for them to film the guy's kid cutting the grass. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Sling322
Not a Monitor!
Fat Drunk Bastards
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Well, some interesting developments today.
Apparently they want an apology from us for starters. Not sure what we're supposed to say really. I guess something along the lines of "Gosh, I'm sorry your pilot hit our plane, causing us to land in hostile territory with busted props, no flaps, and no airspeed indicator."
Word has gotten to the media that this particular pilot has been reportedly hotdogging surveillance aircraft for a few weeks now. I guess he saw "Top Gun" one too many times.
The ex-Ambassador to China said that there's a good chance the military did not communicate clearly to their government just what in the hell really happened, so the government is going on what they were told by the military.
I imagine the last thing the military would want to do is tell their leaders that one of their fiestiest pilots was "shadowing" an American surveillance aircraft, and took it just a bit too far, taking himself out of the play, and damaging the American craft, forcing it to do an emergency landing.
Now that they've apparently taken whatever their military leaders told them at face value, and they've acted on that officially in their correspondence with the U.S., they're kind of between a rock and a hard place.
The Chinese Ambassador said the U.S. needs to apologize, and not fly surveillance missions off the coast of China. He tried to make some allegory about people driving by other people's houses, but it wasn't working too well.
The EP-3 looks like toejam. Also apparently they were able to have 10-15 minutes to destroy the equipment, and reportedly were in contact with their controllers, who actually gave them permission to land instead of ditching. This is all a result of watching TV, so feel free to doubt it's validity, but it all sounded pretty interesting.
Obviously, as I think Toad may have mentioned before, I think the main problem is that these guys have no idea how to play the spy game. Some congressman said that we shadow the Russians all the time, and if any of our planes came in contact with an "enemy" aircraft doing one of those missions, it would be the end of his career.
Maybe we ought to make them a deal, and teach them how to be a super power and deal with ongoing surveillance after they give us our crew and aircraft back.
Be interesting to see how this turns out.
Mk
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Good book about surveilance and FUBARs during and after the Cold War:
Blind Man's Bluff
ISBN # 6-06-103004-X
$7.99 US
Granted it's about subs, and not planes, but it gives you one heck of an idea of what went on. From what they say, Naval Investigations was pretty peeved about it being published. One sub captain followed a Yankee-class boomer for something like 45 days. Naturally he was rewarded big time. The sub captain who got too close to an Echo-II class ended up being involved in a rather bad fender bender. Nearly ripped the sail off the sub and what was left had parts of one of the Echo's screws stuck in it.
As for the difference between Spy and Recon planes. A Spy plane is purpose-built to do just that; fly over the enemy, not get seen, and take photos of stuff the bad guy wants to keep secret. Recon planes are just Boeing 700-series airliners modified to heck and gone to sniff out things. Kinda like the P-3 Orion; it snoops, it poops, and it's visible for hundreds of miles.
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Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta Six's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"With all due respect Chaplian, I don't think God wants to hear from me right now.
I'm gonna go out there and remove one of His creations from this universe.
And when I get back I'm gonna drink a bottle of Scotch like it was Chiggy von
Richthofen's blood and celebrate his death."
Col. McQueen, Space: Above and Beyond
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/delta6.jpg)
[This message has been edited by flakbait (edited 04-05-2001).]
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Los Alamos ring a bell?
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Sturm6 StaffelKapitän
JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron
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How about Iran?
hostages are hostages. My fear is that this issue will get old and moldy and lose it's newsworthiness. We need to strike while the iron is hot and we have the backing of the US population, make them and the rest of the world think twice b4 they mess with us in the future.
Eagler
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Toad - I made a more detailed reply in another topic.