Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Custom Skins => Topic started by: Scrap on October 07, 2005, 12:13:42 PM
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SHOWA L2D (DC-3 "Dakota") from Tochy's page...
(http://www.angel.ne.jp/~tochy/airplane/image/scene008.jpg)
Would be a neat addition to our Goonie skins.
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Both the Russians and Japanese had copies of the DC3 so it wouldn't be far fetched to skin some of them
I think the Japanese version was called the Tabby, while the DC2 copy was the Tess.
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HTC says no "captured" skins... even if they're copies I think they're under that category. Maybe a Chinese skin, as we were allies with them.
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The Soviets manufactured around 2,000 DC-3s under license as the Lisunov Li-2, while the Japanese built another 485 as the Showa L2D. There were only trivial external differences, so there should be OK to skin either variant.
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Yeah, but the Soviets added a .50 turret on the top of theirs >:P
I'd LOVE to have that variant!!!
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Thier not capured skins Japanese and Russians bought and made them.
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Still, for the most part it's a US plane in enemy paint scheme. I don't think HTC will allow it. Go ahead and ask 'em, though. Would be good to have a final say on the matter.
Japs might be able to copy things (jets specifically) but they had piss-poor engine copying. They would always put their own engines in. That would make it a different plane with different performance. The Soviet version, however, was most likely a C47 repainted (and some with a turret added)
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I found agerman 163 painted in Japanese colors and asked him if I could do it he said if I could find out what squad in flew in yea, but it didnt think the same would go for that DC-3.
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Japs were planning on it, and a 262 clone, but they were not identical, and they did not serve operationally (from what I understand)
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Shut up Krusty, quit whining and think about it :D .
....is it really hard to believe that a CIVILIAN plane was not distributed/built all over the world??? :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Krusty
Still, for the most part it's a US plane in enemy paint scheme. I don't think HTC will allow it. Go ahead and ask 'em, though. Would be good to have a final say on the matter.
Pyro himself suggested if someone would do the Tabby.
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Originally posted by Scrap
Shut up Krusty, quit whining and think about it :D .
....is it really hard to believe that a CIVILIAN plane was not distributed/built all over the world??? :rolleyes:
Scraps, my previous comment was on the 163 and 262 clones the Japanese were working on, not the C47s. Sorry for the confusion.
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Awwwwhhhhsooooo! meee sooooo sowwwwry kimosabi! :D
:p
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for the most part krusty i find your posts a good read....but you standpoint on this one is a little off kilter... your comment that c47 is mainly a american plane is not quite true.. all the allied nations used it..and to follow your comment through to conclusion what your saying is if its american just US skins, if its BRIT just brit skins and so on and so on...
my thoughts on the matter is if it took part in any way during the war then let it in.. history is so interesting and if people find info on aircraft they have reserched then im all for it.. i for one didn't know the japs used a c47, so im richer for the info..:aok
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Originally posted by SELECTOR
i for one didn't know the japs used a c47, so im richer for the info..:aok
I remember hearing a story about the gunners on an AAC bomber early in the war (I think a B-17) claiming a kill of a Japanese C-47, but I can't seem to find the reference now. Probably one of the books or magazines that I hadn't read in so long that I sold it off on e-bay. :)
I know that in one of WEB Griffins "The Corps" novels, I think 'Counterattack' (which I read long after I saw the original story on the kill), the crew of a B-17 are debating shooting at a C-47 they run into out in the middle of nowhere because they can't understand what an American cargo plane would be doing out there, but the Japanese Army was known to use a copy of the DC-3. Turns out that the Goon they ran into was a Marine R4D on a fictional mission that he made up for his story, but almost everything that takes place in his books is well researched and based closely on fact, so its probably a safe bet that he is referring to a real incident.
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Originally posted by SELECTOR
your comment that c47 is mainly a american plane is not quite true.. all the allied nations used it..and to follow your comment through to conclusion what your saying is if its american just US skins, if its BRIT just brit skins and so on and so on...
I hope I didn't imply that. That's not my thinking on the matter. I simply remember discussions of other planes. There was a German P38 skin somebody wanted to do. There was a Fw190D in VVS markings somebody wanted to do (that one was even used in combat against the LW!!) but these skins were not allowed. HTC said "No captured skins". So what I was saying is that if you tried skinning the Japanese DC-3 there's a chance that HTC might not allow it. It seems that this was untrue, as somebody mentioned Skuzzy made a comment about it too.
Hope that's cleared up :aok
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ok then maybe the powers that be should come and say exactly what is and what isn't allowed
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I think that's the point of this thread, to see if one of them will bestow upon us a glimmer of approval (or not) :)
EDIT:
Originally posted by Wmaker
Pyro himself suggested if someone would do the Tabby.
But if that's true (which I didn't know about when I originally replied) then HTC would allow it. So with that info, looks like I was wrong. (Hey, I admit it)
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Don't we have a RAF Ju-88 and a Finnish Hurricane?
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... good point ...
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Originally posted by JB42
Don't we have a RAF Ju-88 and a Finnish Hurricane?
No we have a "Free French" Ju88. Big difference. These were not captured. The French had them and just pressed them into service, after they were "liberated".
The Hurricane in Finnish markings was not captured either. The Fins bought some Hurricanes (or were given some) if I recall, and owned them properly.
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I didn't even know the Finns flew Hurris. Or at least ones that weren't captured from the Russians, always assumed thats where they came from.
Between all the Allied countries that flew them, and the Finns, and the Romanians, (plus the neutral Turks) that was one common aircraft!
Maybe only the P-40 flew in as many colors?
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The 109 (all variants) the hurricane, the p40, these are some of the most widely exported fighters in history. They served in many many different nations. The p40 because of the almost unique development of fighter aircraft in the US. The Hurricane because it was around early and made an impression and was exported. The 109 because it also was early and the Germans exported it to allied/nearby countries.
Off the top of my head I can't think of another that's as widely distributed as these three, but I know there are more.
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like kids, like kids
for AH1 we had russian and JPN version of skin for c47
i dontr see a reason to not have it again
anyway we not gonna have Li2 or tabby, so what a heck? why not?
but make sure british and american D-Day skin is there allready
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Originally posted by Krusty
The 109 (all variants) the hurricane, the p40, these are some of the most widely exported fighters in history. They served in many many different nations. The p40 because of the almost unique development of fighter aircraft in the US. The Hurricane because it was around early and made an impression and was exported. The 109 because it also was early and the Germans exported it to allied/nearby countries.
Off the top of my head I can't think of another that's as widely distributed as these three, but I know there are more.
I think the P-39 served in virtually every theater of WWII - from the NW Europe (very briefly) to North Africa and the Med, SW Pacific, Central Pacific (Gilbert Islands?) and the Eastern Front.
The Brewster Buffalo served in the RAF, the USMC, the Dutch AF, and the Finnish AF. It flew in defense of Singapore, Midway, Indonesia, and Finland.
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While they "tried" the P-39 in almost every theater, it was almost as quickly withdrawn from almost every theater as well, due to unsuitable performance. I'd say the only places it actually had a home in was N Africa and Russia.
The USN and RAF both found the Brewster totally unsuited for combat. The RAF dumped all theirs on their east indies colonies, so those are the same ones defending malaysia, etc. Not that many Brewsters were made. They served in a lot of areas, but many of them were the same planes passed around because nobody wanted them.
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I have pics of P-39Qs used in the Gilberts in 1943, so I'd guess it saw a something over a years' worth of service in the Pacific, possibly up to two. But even so, a fighter that saw combat in multiple theaters for more than a year is a fairly significant piece of work. The P-39Qs top speed is 386 mph at 9,500 ft, which is not a complete embarrassment. With 4x50s and a 37mm cannon -- it might be an interesting addition to AH.
The Finns loved the Brewster, and in their hands it produced more aces per airframe than the P-51 Mustang did in ours. How, I have no idea. Well, some idea -- must've had a lot to do with the relative training and tactics used by the Finns vs the Soviets and the statistcally small number of Brewsters actually used.
The Brewster would have a number of skinning choices, for sure. Same goes for the P-39...but, s'all good.
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Originally posted by oboe
The Finns loved the Brewster, and in their hands it produced more aces per airframe than the P-51 Mustang did in ours. How, I have no idea. Well, some idea -- must've had a lot to do with the relative training and tactics used by the Finns vs the Soviets and the statistcally small number of Brewsters actually used.
Don't forget "Good Morale and Highly Motivated as opposed to Badly Trained and for the most part Ill Equipped"
What was it Hartmann said, 1 kill against the British and Americans was as good as 5 against the Soviets?
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In the first couple of years, perhaps. But there was a late-war quote about being safer when being chased by US mustangs than by Soviet fighters, because the Mustangs were so inexperienced they'd get in each other's way all scrambling for the kill (LMAO what does that sound like to you? MA anyone? :P). So later on they got better.
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That's my point Krusty. If the planes I mentioned are ok, then a purchased and repainted C47 for the Japanese should be allowed. Russian as well.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Still, for the most part it's a US plane in enemy paint scheme. I don't think HTC will allow it. Go ahead and ask 'em, though. Would be good to have a final say on the matter.
Japs might be able to copy things (jets specifically) but they had piss-poor engine copying. They would always put their own engines in. That would make it a different plane with different performance. The Soviet version, however, was most likely a C47 repainted (and some with a turret added)
Don't we have US planes in several different country colors? Brit,
Aussie, USSR for example? I hope so, otherwise the poor Finns are SOL
with their Brewster efforts.:D
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The Japanese, like the Russians, liscense built the DC-3, so it was not a captured aircraft.
Krusty,
Also look at the Foker D.XXI for frequently exported. The Finns flew both purchased and liscense built D.XXIs amoung many other nations. Foker had great name recognition from WWI and made many sales just on that account.
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The Tabby 22 was definately manufactured in Japan. I have pictures of it in a book on the production line. I can post those if it will assist. Also please check out Showa L2D (http://www.combinedfleet.com/ijna/l2d.htm) The main difference was a couple extra windows at the rear of the cockpit.
Cheers,
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Originally posted by Krusty
While they "tried" the P-39 in almost every theater, it was almost as quickly withdrawn from almost every theater as well, due to unsuitable performance. I'd say the only places it actually had a home in was N Africa and Russia.
The USN and RAF both found the Brewster totally unsuited for combat. The RAF dumped all theirs on their east indies colonies, so those are the same ones defending malaysia, etc. Not that many Brewsters were made. They served in a lot of areas, but many of them were the same planes passed around because nobody wanted them.
Krusty, you gotta do some checking first before you make some of those statements :)
350th Fighter Group was flying P39s up until August 1944 in the MTO up through Italy. Thats August 1944 before they got P47s. They were certainly still being used in the Pacific into 44 as well by the USAAF.
Were they the best planes for the job? Nope. Did they do the job? Yep to the best of their abilities.
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I count the MTO as part of N Arfica, so I sorta felt that part was covered in my initial comment "They had a home in N Africa and Russia" -- my bad :P
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Originally posted by Treize69
I remember hearing a story about the gunners on an AAC bomber early in the war (I think a B-17) claiming a kill of a Japanese C-47, but I can't seem to find the reference now. Probably one of the books or magazines that I hadn't read in so long that I sold it off on e-bay. :)
I know that in one of WEB Griffins "The Corps" novels, I think 'Counterattack' (which I read long after I saw the original story on the kill), the crew of a B-17 are debating shooting at a C-47 they run into out in the middle of nowhere because they can't understand what an American cargo plane would be doing out there, but the Japanese Army was known to use a copy of the DC-3. Turns out that the Goon they ran into was a Marine R4D on a fictional mission that he made up for his story, but almost everything that takes place in his books is well researched and based closely on fact, so its probably a safe bet that he is referring to a real incident.
There are a couple of photos of the shoot down of the Japanese C47. This is the one I found tonight, but I know there is another of it in flames going down from the same incident. A Navy B24 shot it down.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/169_1129088006_tabby.jpg)
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Originally posted by Krusty
I count the MTO as part of N Arfica, so I sorta felt that part was covered in my initial comment "They had a home in N Africa and Russia" -- my bad :P
No problem here. North Africa would to me tend to imply 1942 when in fact the 39 soldiered on into August 44. Our old Airwarrior buddy Earl Miller flew 39s with the 350th during all that time from North Africa up until they got the Jugs.
Image is Earl in a 39 on Corsica in 1944 from his photo collection. He doesn't live that far from me so I got to dig through it :)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/169_1097006835_corsica442.jpg)
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lol they don't call them "car style doors" for nothing! He's got the window down and his elbow's hanging out, like an old Ford truck lmao
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Found the other image of the "Tabby" going down from the same incident with the B24. Just had to remember where to look :)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/169_1129088659_tabby2.jpg)
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I believe all skins will be accepted if there is proof of a squadron that used them. "There was a captured P38 someone wanted to do but was told it would not be accepted" I think the fact it there was a captured P38 used, but there was not an entire squad of German P38s, therefor it wont be accepted. You said the Japanese had a substantial number of "Tabbies" therefore it is likely that there was an air group that used them and it's likely to be accepted.
BTW nice photos Guppy, seem like those would be hard to come by.
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Oh, I've no doubt it'll be accepted now (when this thread was first posted I was unsure). I'm just taking part in the tangent thread that's come out of this topic :)