Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: mechanic on October 09, 2005, 09:55:41 PM
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http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/film209.ahf
here is an example of long range gunnery, from around 1000yrds taking off the enemies right flap, whilst taking mg fire from the rear gun of the 110. and then, as the target flees, a concetrated burst into the canopy to pop the melon.
it is not imppossible in AH2 even if they say it is in real life.
slow the film down and watch a zoomed in external of the target to see the hits.
comments please.
edit: yet more evidence. please watch this very short film and check the screen shots.
long range concentrated fire: http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/longrange1.wmv
(http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/longrange.JPG)
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Originally posted by mechanic
http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/film209.ahf
here is an example of long range gunnery, from around 1000yrds taking off the enemies right flap, whilst taking mg fire from the rear gun of the 110. and then, as the target flees, a concetrated burst into the canopy to pop the melon.
it is not imppossible in AH2 even if they say it is in real life.
I don't know if there's much controversy on the matter, but "for the most part" it's BS in AH. Having said that, it *IS* possible. Most times its very rare, but in a plane with long range guns the bullets will go that far (50cals count) and in a gun with nose-mounted guns the convergence is minimal enough.
So a plane with nose mounted, long range, guns, should be able to. Probably only if the convergence is set to max. So a plane like the 110G has nose guns, but they're limited due to dispersion and drop, so they almost certainly won't go out that far. A plane like the P38, or the A20G (with 50cals in the nose) has a good chance, and because there is a grouping of guns in the nose, there's also a chance that the bullets will all land together and do damage.
I still think it's BS, but it's explainable BS.
EDIT: At 900+ all you can hope for is minor damage. However under 800 is still "in the lethal zone). I don't rest easy if there is an enemy on me inside that range. 1K is "safe enough" not to be shot down 99% of the time, but like your kill shot shows, under 800 is still the "kill zone".
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Originally posted by Krusty
I don't know if there's much controversy on the matter, but "for the most part" it's BS in AH. Having said that, it *IS* possible. Most times its very rare, but in a plane with long range guns the bullets will go that far (50cals count) and in a gun with nose-mounted guns the convergence is minimal enough.
So a plane with nose mounted, long range, guns, should be able to. Probably only if the convergence is set to max. So a plane like the 110G has nose guns, but they're limited due to dispersion and drop, so they almost certainly won't go out that far. A plane like the P38, or the A20G (with 50cals in the nose) has a good chance, and because there is a grouping of guns in the nose, there's also a chance that the bullets will all land together and do damage.
I still think it's BS, but it's explainable BS.
EDIT: At 900+ all you can hope for is minor damage. However under 800 is still "in the lethal zone). I don't rest easy if there is an enemy on me inside that range. 1K is "safe enough" not to be shot down 99% of the time, but like your kill shot shows, under 800 is still the "kill zone".
hoestly man, you're really not thinking or observing this correctly, you're giving what seems like an automated point of view.
watch the slow-motion clip prepared and linked for ya, and notice the huge amount of concentrated fire firstly on the flap (which falls off in the end) from a range of around 900 yrds, and then the pilot and canopy (110 has a huge canopy) from a range of around 750 yrds which, quitre rightly, shreds the crew to pieces. ie, plane explodes.
it really is not that BS or bad modling at all.
you cant always bracket freak incedents into the same old 'moot points' catagory, but this is not exactly a few random pings hitting you in the top of the head, this is total shreding.
is not Aceshigh2 a simulation of the real world? then is it not possible that luck, and other freak happenings will be just as apparent in the game as in life?
you talk about a 110 'dropping far before that range'. its true. but knowing that the rounds drop surely the next conclusion is to aim higher the further away the target is.... :huh
but what if the target you are aiming for is flying almost level at a stable speed and angle, and you are diving down and 'lobbing' hails of 20mm shells from 800yrds? gravity is working for you then, and you dont need many hits to kill a pilot from any range under 800yrds.
when you strafe the town or a GV in a 110, you open fire from 1k to 800 yrds right? i dont go closer than 800yrds to a PT boat to kill it because gravity is making my bullets/rounds travel true over longer range.
its not all boxed up by rules and stats tables and history books guys, we know and learn more about our subject collectively than any other group of 1000s of people i would wager.
this is to show the new guys that they can do whatever they like to kill, if you think you can make a shot dont let anyone stop you trying.
this isnt about saying my aim is sooo good, its not, i always miss from 400yrds let alone 800 but it is a point that is jaded by views of deep pessimism and simulation world phobias.
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Originally posted by mechanic
this isnt about saying my aim is sooo good, its not, i always miss from 400yrds let alone 800 but it is a point that is jaded by views of deep pessimism and simulation world phobias.
Ahh, in that case, I thoroughly support your comments!
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Nothing outstanding here Batfink. Take the plane you are in, a P38 with the nose mounted guns, and then you are firing at a 110 which is a very large target and your bound to get hits.
I've scored many hits from over 1k out with planes not just flying lvl. Not to mention how easy it can be to hit a bomber from over 1k in a P38.
Also these arent cannon balls you're firing. They're very high energy, high velocity, 50 caliber rounds, with 1 20mm mixxed in which is also a hard hitting high velocity round in comparison with the other 20mm rounds of its day.
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anything geater than 500 shouldn't damage a plane to the point of a kill
how many actually shoot downs happened at a d over 1500 ft in rl?
I would not think that many .. just another "easy button" for the masses
(http://www.staples.com/sbd/img/cat/std/s0105150_std.jpg)
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Havent done your reading Eagler. And No one here is talking about 1.5k+.
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I not either as I am talking feet
500 yards = 1500 ft
the whole metric thing is confusing to this dumb yank :)
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obviously no one watching the prepared slow motion clip :(
at 750yrds a 50cal to your head will kill you, so will 5 or 6 50cal rounds at once.
this is acurate modeling in action as it shows no damge for the massive other hits obviously visiable.
Morph, i know its nothing special, thats why i'm claiming that it is not 'bad modeling' it is infact good modeling. it is not a BS way to be killed, it is a pure fluke chance taken and scored.
pilot kill = death and blowing up even at 800yrds.
its good modeling.
I'm really adament about this point.
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Originally posted by mechanic
watch the slow-motion clip prepared and linked for ya, and notice the huge amount of concentrated fire firstly on the flap (which falls off in the end) from a range of around 900 yrds, and then the pilot and canopy (110 has a huge canopy) from a range of around 750 yrds which, quitre rightly, shreds the crew to pieces. ie, plane explodes.
Of course the the rounds are going to be concentrated, you're using a P-38 with the nose mounted guns so convergence is not an issue. Had you been in a plane with wing mounted guns, I highly doubt you'd see the concentration of hits grouped as you see in those screenshots. Even beyond 800 yards the fire is still concentrated enough that you can do damage. There have been a lot of times I've gotten off shots at that range at fleeing planes to see the plane start flipping after taking off the stabilizers.
ack-ack
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at 750yrds a 50cal to your head will kill you,
a 50 cal round too the head at 2000 yards will kill you in real life.
possibly even farther out than 2000 yards.
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OK another very quick streaming update.
watch a 262 get plastered by wing mounted 50cals at long range and stupid speeds.
http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/longrange2b.wmv (fast streaming)
The first pings range exactly 736yrds as the sprite flashes and the icon reads 800. The exact speed of the 262 at the ping is 458mph.
to me this would suggest 3 things.
firstly, that the rounds that hit the 262 were probably fired at around a range of 900yrds.
secondly, the damage to the jet would be minial unless a lucky pilot hit is scored. almost on about 2 feet to the left.
finaly that closing speeds of the aircraft will greatly increase the range you can open fire at, if you prepare the shot well. this one is obvious, everyone should know that.
The second hits that do grievous damage are at the exact range 587yrds as the sprite flashes. the speed of the jet is now 371mph.
these rounds were most likely released at around 700 yrds with a large lead.
i think we should document and rationalize long range gunnery not dweeb it because its not what the red baron says.
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Yep, I agree, took a P38L last PM, tracked E/A, fired at 1000 & hit the target, an 'unsuspecting target' I might add ;) It can be done.
Cheers,
Happy1 :D
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Great Shooting :), Was TrueKill pissed or what !
P38 with Crow mounted guns 4. 50cal 1. cannon aka watermelon loads of guns & super pimping converg, big bellybutton 110 aka easy to hit, Height aka less friction for the bullets, 110 was not moving too much, aka sitting target, 1 great gunner pricless :))))))))))))))
All that adds up to your great shooting, could never of been down if anything was changed, but that was still somthing !
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Lesson learned : it's not safe to have a P38 at 800yards on your tail.
But it's not new.
From soda :
http://members.shaw.ca/soda_p/P38L.htm
In something like a P-47, the margin of dive safety may be more than 150mph. Never allow the P-38 to get any sort of shot on you within D800 though as they will all tend to spray the sky full of bullets, one or two of which may hit you and cause some sort of damage. If you are flying a premium turner, then you can also turn-fight the P-38 in most cases.
I think this page is something like 3 year old !
http://members.shaw.ca/soda_p/P38G.htm
Don’t get caught thinking you can beat one in a vertical zoom, he is just as likely to hit you at D800 with his easily aimed nose guns.
[/B]
hmmm ... I see a pattern :D
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excelent, more evidence, TY Straffo :)
i bet 3 years ago people were more open minded to the chances of a long range kill.
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Originally posted by Kazaa
Great Shooting :), Was TrueKill pissed or what !
P38 with Crow mounted guns 4. 50cal 1. cannon aka watermelon loads of guns & super pimping converg, big bellybutton 110 aka easy to hit, Height aka less friction for the bullets, 110 was not moving too much, aka sitting target, 1 great gunner pricless :))))))))))))))
All that adds up to your great shooting, could never of been down if anything was changed, but that was still somthing !
lol! its not the point that it was even 'my' shot but thats still funny :)
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A "doctoral thesis", if you will :)
I guess the point is in the classical clash between possibility and probability.
Amazingly long range shots did happen in real life. Some pilots claim on kills or inflicitng critical damages from ranges upto 1000 yards and over. Though a certain margin of 'guesstimates' would have to be considered in the fact that none of them exactly had laser-targetted range finders.. perhaps a +/- of 200 yards or so could be accounted for. But that still makes it at least 800 yards or above.
As a technical possibility, the M2 .50s were, as shown in other discussions by the advocates of the reality of long-range gunnery, certainly capable of inflicting damage over very long distances.
However, there also many factors in aerial gunnery which in most cases, very naturally "neuter" the "possibility" so much as to almost consider it "improbable".
According to the renowned Tony Williams, effective range(the range where you can expect to hit, damage, and shoot down a target) of aerial gunnery against fighter-sized targets were at maximum 200meters. Against straight-flying bombers, 400meters.
It is also a very well documented fact that despite the lumbering size and straight flying path, the probability of Luftwaffe interceptors landing a well-placed hit on bomber-sized targets with a heavy cannon was remarkably low. That alone probably shows how difficult aerial gunnery in real life, not to mention that in most cases rarely would people be able to shoot down even a single plane, despite the fact they've encountered and engaged multiple targets in a single sortie.
So my take is that there are two main factors to consider here;
1) still lacking represantation of real life conditions
Despite recent changes in gunnery with AH2, there are still some possible reasons that might reduce the overall difficulty of gunnery in a game, and thus, make it easier for people to hit targets from longer ranges.
For one thing, the distance counter itself gives out very critical information on how much lead is required to hit a target. Despite the various reasons given for the existence of the distance counters, real life pilots seemed to have had as much trouble as game pilots flying with 2D graphical representations and limited resolution/colors.
In other words, despite all the "real-ness", just like game pilots, real pilots had no other way to judge distances than to estimate the range through the crosshairs of their gunsight. The only sure way to place oneself at an absolutley effective gunnery range, was to get as close as possible, since if the enemy plane is right in front of you, at least you know that he is close by.
In sim-game terms, it would be something like this. The limited resolutions and colors of a computer monitor cannot give you any real accurate info on whether the target is gradually closing or departing. However, that being said, there is one way to determine the range between you and the target: and that is, if you would go as close to the target as possible, then you'd know how close you are, since if you get any closer you'd probably collide.
Therefore, IMO, I really don't see why the distance counter (albeit in 200yard increments for hostiles) exists in the first place. I understand the reason for long-range distance indications, such as 6.0k closing down to 3.0k and etc.. however, my opinion is that once within 1000 yards, the distance counter should disappear, and the pilot should only be given the basic icon set, and the +/- sign. The fact that we still can judge the distances pretty accurately, at least by 200 yard increments, is IMO one of the factors which makes long-range gunnery more probable in AH than in real life.
Another factor would be the existence of ammo counters. This is an already well-known phenomenon. When flying planes without any direct means to determine the exact ammo load(as in the IL-2 experience), people usually tend to fire very carefully, at mostly very close distances, since you have no way of knowing how much of ammo you can "spend under control" in hopes of achieving a long-range hit. While this doesn't effect gunnery directly, it effects the pilot pyschological, making him less willing to even try and fire at longer distances than usual.
2) game pilots much more skilled in gunnery than their real-life counterparts
However, another factor which must be considered, is that game pilots encounter, and engage enemies thousands of times more than real pilots. If an avid AH gamer plays the game every day for two hours, meeting 30 enemy planes every session, in a year he meets more than 10 thousand enemy planes. That would be more planes engaged than at least 1,000 real life WW2 pilots.
Although experience doesn't necessarily increase directly in proportion with time, it is probable that an average skilled AH gamer might still be much more experienced in encounters than the an average WW2 pilot.
Thus, it is logical to assume that this would have an effect in gunnery. So it is probably natural to expect people hitting from much longer distances than real life. The problem is, this factor can never be accurately measured, and relies a lot on guesses and casual thinking. It's a largely undetermined variable which may differ a lot from person to person.
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The trick, is to determine just how much of AH's long-range gunnery is accounted by its lack of real life conditions, and how much is determined by the "pilot skill" factor. While it may be impossible to pin point just how much, there are some empirical figures which might help.
For instance, empirically, the average range of effective gunnery in AH1 was around 500 yards. If an enemy fighter was behind you at 500 yards or so, even if you were in a faster plane it was pretty much impossible to expect you to out-accelerate the enemy plane and pull away to safe distances. 600 yards+ was considered tough but possible, and 800 yards shots were considered rare but still too often to consider "improbable".
When simular series of discussions concerning reallistic gunnery arose in AH1 days, the same arguments relying on the "pilot skill" factor were given.
However, the advent of AH2 and its more refined "hit detection resolution" quickly proved that might not have been the case. Everyone more or less still remembers the initial "shock" of AH2 beta. People suddenly finding out that they can't hit as well as used to, was more or less a proof that in AH1, people were getting hits that should have been a "miss". It became much clear that a large part of the long-range gunnery in AH1, was due to an out-dated hit detection system, and not really as much a "skill factor" as some people would have preferred to believe. I would say that it was a small, but very significant turn of events which proved that people have a way of justifying the current trends to be "normal", when in fact, it was caused by a faulty(or rather, out-dated) system.
After the new gunnery has been established, I think it would be safe to say that in AH2 a plane that might be able to outaccelerate the enemy behind it, has a fair chance to pull away to safety for a duration of anywhere between 5 seconds to 10, 20, even 30 seconds, despite getting a few hits, even at 400 yards(indicated) range. Were it AH1, in such a situation, the targetted plane would be shot down within 5 seconds.
Although long range gunnery still happens, especially with those with armament much more suited for it, still AH2 gunnery has corrected a lot of the problems and brought the gunnery much closer to the real thing than before.
If there is anything to add, I would be highly interested in how things turn out if the distance counters vanished under 1000 yards as proposed, and the ammo counters were deleted from planes that did not have them. When some people still get 600~800 yard shots despite those changes, then I'd openly praise THAT, as undeniable work of skilled gunnery. However, I have my doubts.
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well i agree with waht you're saying at time, i think, but are you seriously sugesting the ammo counter makes your shooting less skilled if you achieve say a hit % of 60% and do damage on a 800+yrd shot?
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I think what he is saying is that if you didn't have ammo counter people would be less inclined to take a low percentage shot. Which is probably true. It would also mean people landing after just about every fight because they wouldn't know for sure how much ammo they had left.
I can imagine the squeels. You fly to attack a base. You mix it up enroute. You get to your destination. You saddle up. You pull the trigger. *CLICK*
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Originally posted by straffo
Lesson learned : it's not safe to have a P38 at 800yards on your tail.
But it's not new.
From soda :
http://members.shaw.ca/soda_p/P38L.htm
I think this page is something like 3 year old !
http://members.shaw.ca/soda_p/P38G.htm
hmmm ... I see a pattern :D
Those don't count. They are probably references to AH1, where 1.2k hits were common place, and most fights never got closer than 500.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Those don't count. They are probably references to AH1, where 1.2k hits were common place, and most fights never got closer than 500.
Even if it changed a bit the gunnery (and I'm not sure it really changed) thge lethality of the weapon didn't change between version.