Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Captain Virgil Hilts on October 09, 2005, 10:15:33 PM
-
Last night, near Putnam County Tennessee, the F6F from Planes of Fame in Chino California went down, the pilot was killed.
I don't know the circumstances, other than witnesses said the plane appeared to be low and trying to make an emergency landing when it struck some power lines. The plane flew another 2-5 miles before crashing right next to I-40 near Monterey Tennessee.
The plane had been hangared in Sevierville Tennesse at the warbird museum there. I don't know where it was headed.
Update: It appears the plane may have been headed to Little Rock Arkansas to perform in an air show there next weekend. As of this time (about 10:30 PM Sunday), this is the lead story at http://www.aero-news.net.
As they update the site, the story will move down. The current header for the story is "One Dead in TN Warbird Crash".
I'm just sick. I saw this plane Labor Day Weekend at Middlesboro KY, performing at the annual "Glacier Girl" Airshow. Man, those guys are just great people, they treat you like you're one of them when you see them at the shows. It's like losing a friend. I don't even have the pictures from this year developed yet.
Pictures I took of the plane a year or so ago can be seen in my profile section at http://www.327.com.
(http://www.327th.com/images/Savage/f6f.jpg)
-
That sucks.
Keep us posted on what you find out...
-
I saw Steve Hinton fly the F6F here in Minneapolis when there was a Planes of Fame Museum locally. Don't know if this is the same a/c.
Just terrible news though....
-
Man, sad news indeed. Yeah, they always seemed to treat the visitors as welcomed guests.
-
I remember seeing that Hellcat, at least part of it, back in the early to mid 1970s at Earl Reinert's museum in Mundeline, IL. Musuem is a bit of a stretch actually, since it was more of a transitional warbird junkyard that contained bits and pieces of aircraft, mainly, with a few exceptions such as a nice B-26 and a B-25, a Bakka bomb and two or three Buchons about 80 percent complete. No rules, no supervision, just walk around the planes and bits of planes.
There was a lot of churn. Except for the limited selection of core aircraft there was always something new and something missing. I clearly remember one good visit (must have been nine or ten years old), where in addition to a razorback P-47 complete and flyable, a P-51 cockpit area you could sit in and a Saki 21 mounted in the open on a stand, there was a Hellcat fuselage sitting on its grear, sans engine and outer wings. In researching Reinhart history I came across a reference that it provided the core of the Chino aircraft.
Sad for the loss of the pilot and sad for the loss of history, in this case some personal history.
I have some photos of the museum from 1972 I will scan in soon and post. Quite the intersting place, shut down as an "eyesore" in the early 1990s as the farm fields around it had become yuppie housefarms (a real eyesore, IMO).
Charon
-
They just released the name of the pilot. It was Art Vance, 64, of California. It appears the plane experienced engine problems and he was unable to to keep it in the air.
-
Art Vance
Very sad.
IIRC that was an F6F3. I know I have pics of it on my home machine. Will post them later.
-
According to the Planes of Fame site that was their F6F-5, assigned to the East coast tour.
-
S!
(http://users.adelphia.net/~njellis/images/DSC00980.jpg)
-
Sad seen this plane many times. 4 or 5 years ago Me.Mathman.funkedup.mietla and 6 or 7 other A/H's went to the Chino Airshow. Mathman was drooling over it for hours. Mietla had pictures of all of us in front of it. Maybe he will see this and post them.
-
Not sure this is it.. but
2005 POF Chino
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/94_1128997228_chino2005005.jpg)
2004 POF Chino
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/94_1128997427_chino2004034.jpg)
-
The top plane has the wrong N number, the second plane has the right markings.
I just looked at the inventory list on the Planes of Fame site, and the top plane matches neither the file picture for the F6F-3 nor the F6F-5. In the file pictures, both F6F's are painted in USN markings in those pictures, but the F6F-3 picture is from 2003.
This is the F6F-5, and is the plane that was assigned to the East coast tour. It is also the plane I saw last month at Middlesboro KY.
(http://www.warbird-photos.com/Airshow04-Aircraft/images/IMG_0874.JPG)
I just looked at the Planes of Fame site. The VP of Planes of Fame says it was in fact the F6F-5. I looked at my pics and the N number of the plane involved matches the F6F-5 in my pics.
-
This sounds cold I know..... but any more info on the condition of the aircraft?
-
Yeah, I saw what was left. The VP of Planes of Fame is right, the plane is lost. The area where it crashed is VERY heavily wooded, with the average tree being a lot bigger than a telephone pole, and came down on a solid rock bluff. I thought about driving up to see it, but I just can't bring myself to do it. I've seen enough already. Having seen this sort of thing before, I'd say the pictures don't even show how bad it really is.
You might be albe to see for yourself, do a search for the three local stations, WSMV, WTVF, and WKRN. Their archives may still have the footage online.
-
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
They just released the name of the pilot. It was Art Vance, 64, of California. It appears the plane experienced engine problems and he was unable to to keep it in the air.
I think you need to wait for the FAA report before you make any statements regarding the crash.
Obviously the new'sees are so full of accurate information....
-
Photos of the crash site at http://www.wkrn.com/Global/story.asp?s=3956113 (http://www.wkrn.com/Global/story.asp?s=3956113)
MiG
-
Another irreplacable pair gone forever.
Keep em on the ground fellas....
-
Originally posted by Yeager
Another irreplacable pair gone forever.
Keep em on the ground fellas....
When you invest the monies / time required to keep em flying, then you can say that.
-
Is it possible when restoring an aircraft, to 3D scan every piece, so there is a computer record of every piece that goes into an airplane? That way, a completely new plane could be theoretically made from the 3D part information?
Just wondering if that's even possible, or just cost prohibitive.
What'd they build something like 15,000 Hellcats? And so few survive.
-
There are currently drawings available to all major US aircraft. They are what we use when we rebuild the aircraft to begin with.
-
Originally posted by Bodhi
I think you need to wait for the FAA report before you make any statements regarding the crash.
Obviously the new'sees are so full of accurate information....
That's true. I heard a couple of eyewitnesses say it sounded rough, but they might not have known what it was supposed to sound like either.
-
Originally posted by oboe
...What'd they build something like 15,000 Hellcats? And so few survive.
I saw a documentary a couple of months ago about early air to air missles.
The test footage was of dozens of WWII fighters used as test drones, mostly Hellcats it seemed.
-
A pilot that old could have just had a stroke or something midair. Not necessarily a technical problem.
-
rare and intensely valuable aircraft MUST be preserved. If flying them means eventually losing ALL of them then GROUND them NOW.
and I dont have to invest a damned penny to feel strongly that I am correct in my opinion.
FWIW, build and crash all the replicas you want. I love to see planes fly too, but those truly rare and irreplacable aircraft MUST be preserved.
-
yeager if and when i get to build and fly my own warbird..u dam well sure ill fly the thing..
how many in your opinion..should we keep on the ground...1 ...2 20 ...100?
-
"rare and intensely valuable aircraft MUST be preserved. If flying them means eventually losing ALL of them then GROUND them NOW."
What makes one of thousands of F6F's special? Just because it's old? If they run out of airframes, eventually someone will build more (witness new production of FW-190's and Yaks). Some random airplane off a production line in 1945 is no more signifigant than some random airplane off a production line last week.
You say fly replicas. I ask you--what can a production F6F do sitting in a museum, that a replica couldn't? Put the non-flyable replicas in the museums.
J_A_B
-
F6Fs seem to me to be more rare than other pursuit type Warbirds.
In museums I've encoutered every major type of USAAF & USN fighter except this one.
I've even met 190D-13 in two different places, but still no Hellcat.
-
Lone Star Flight Museum in Galveston hosts the entire line of cats. Only 1 of 2 museums with that kind of collection. Really glad Rita didn't flatten it.
-
what can a production F6F do sitting in a museum, that a replica couldn't? Put the non-flyable replicas in the museums.
====
thats the kind of logic that adds content to the darwin awards......
-
"thats the kind of logic that adds content to the darwin awards......"
Eh?
Try answering my question.
J_A_B
-
let me go find the the young man who designed the engine cowling or the gal that riveted the tail section on. Maybe the first pilot to lift off in one or the folks who wrote the maintenance or training materials. Let me shroom back to 1941 and see what the deal is.......lets go find a brave airman who bagged 34 jap planes in a F6F and see if he thought they should all be ultimately destroyed? Because if they continue to be flown there will come a day when there are non left. Copies/replicas have no comparable value when compared against the genuine artical....
Why would a replica F6F (if there is such a thing) be displayed in a museum while the INCREASINGLY rare vintage warbird is being flown into the ground at an average pace of 6 airframes per year......I guess there are some questions that have no logical answer.
-
"Why would a replica F6F (if there is such a thing) be displayed in a museum while the INCREASINGLY rare vintage warbird is being flown "
Simple enough.
How much do you suppose it costs to build a replica--or clean up a junked "real" airframe--that's suitable for static display? Now, how much do you think it costs to build a replica that can actually fly?
People fly the "real" planes because it's cheaper than building a flight-worthy replica from scratch.
It's pretty cheap (by comparison) to slap together enough metal to look like an F6F and throw a coat of paint on it so it can sit and gather dust in some museum. Why waste an actual airplane for what a cheap shell can do? Why repair it in the first place if all it's going to do is sit and gather dust anyway?
Consigning a complex machine to a museum is in most cases little better than leaving it in a junkyard. Time destroys them regardless. I don't work with WW2 Warbirds, but I do work with vintage steam locomotives, and I know that putting an operational locomotive on "static display" usually amounts to its destruction. It's just it gets destroyed gradually over decades instead of all at once.
It's kind of like putting your grandmother in a nursing home on life support instead of just letting her die. You might feel better about yourself, but in reality all you accomplish is dragging our her suffering over 10 years instead of 10 weeks.
J_A_B
-
Yeager, you're "opinion" does not make you right, and in this case it makes you the minority.
Maybe I need to add some all cap words in here to prove I am right. :rolleyes:
Either way, we will keep on rebuilding them, as well as flying them.
One question, say I find a wrecked airplane, that is written off, and will not fly again, more than likely will either rot away, or be ultimately scrapped. Say I take said airframe and rebuild it, and fly it.
How is that wrong?
-
Bodhi
On average, how much of an aircraft it used in restoration?
I know thats prolly hard to answer since some are built from multible donor planes etc.
How many of these planes are on their 3rd or 4th rebuild?
If I ever win the lotery can I come work for you for free?:D
Will we reach a point were parts to keep then engines running will dry up?
-
Bodhi, if my opinion does not agree with your opinion then that makes you wrong, more or less :aok
And my being a minority, especially on this bsb, is a source of pride and dignity.....generally speaking :O
To answer your question: If you find a rusty bolt in some jungle somehwere that used to belong to the flap hinge of a F6F and you fabricate an airplane around that bolt then by all means...go flying bro.
I am willing to bet that there are enough vintage F6Fs permanently grounded in museums around the world that the few that are left flying can be flown without threat of losing the entire lineage....but as long as those rare historic irreplacable vintage airplanes are flown they will continue to be destroyed.
I believe the FAA requires 75% of the original airframe remain in order for an airframe to be licensed as a vintage original airframe.....or something like that.
Ground those rare birds while they still exist. Build the fakes and copies all you want,......fly em, crash em...have a blast but preserve the originals.
you know I am right, admit it.
-
Originally posted by Yeager
And my being a minority, especially on this bsb, is a source of pride and dignity.....generally speaking :O
anybody that sticks :O in a post has neither pride, or dignity.
-
They were built to fly, loud and fast. A silenced and stilled warbird is an empty shell. There's a BIG difference between seeing one and seeing it FLY.
-
it's a hot dry dusty summer afternoon. The heat simmering off the cracked weed choked taxiway is palatable, visibly twisting the view towards the distant mountains. you scan the horizon towards the west, for that’s where it'll come from..
there.. a dot.
low.
thru the waves of heat mirage you discern nothing more at first.. you squint, ears straining for the sound, you lean a bit forward; hands now up to shade your eyes..
yes, this is it. it's coming. the fuselage, the sun glints off the silver leading edges, the canopy. it grows larger, draws closer, but still no sound.
but you can feel it.. the tarmac trembles. closer...
suddenly, it's all over you; there's a shuddering crescendo of energy, it's palatable you can see it, feel it, taste it, your pushed back physically half a step and the furious thunder of 2200 horsepower lands upon you like a surprise sandbag...
a flash of silver, wing dipped low, the mind takes the snapshot, the camera still hanging from your limp hand at your side.... and it's away, receding as fast as it came; trash and loose cans tumble across the taxiway in it's wake.
Warbird.
Nothin like it in the world.
Nothin.
Fly 'em, by god. Chaining glory to a hardstand is a crime.
Fly 'em.
-
Originally posted by Yeager
I believe the FAA requires 75% of the original airframe remain in order for an airframe to be licensed as a vintage original airframe.....or something like that.
WRONG (like the bold type?) The aircraft's licensing is based on manufacture... plain and simple.
ie if I build it like the manufacturer did, then it's good to go provided I have a manufacturing license.
-
Originally posted by Hangtime
anybody that sticks :O in a post has neither pride, or dignity.
That includes you too correct?
-
clicky (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/avatar.php?userid=12049&dateline=1115088438)
-
Originally posted by Bodhi
WRONG (like the bold type?) The aircraft's licensing is based on manufacture... plain and simple.
ie if I build it like the manufacturer did, then it's good to go provided I have a manufacturing license.
Would that be with an experimantal airworthyness certificate or could you go out & manufacture an F6F & uses it for commercial operations? Not that I think there would be any profit in that, just wondering...
-
Originally posted by Debonair
Would that be with an experimantal airworthyness certificate or could you go out & manufacture an F6F & uses it for commercial operations? Not that I think there would be any profit in that, just wondering...
depends on the type certificate issued per aircraft... F6f is only issued the experimental category, as is the F4u, but the 38, 51, and a host of others fall into the limited or standard category.
-
yes, just another smoking debris field....thats the ticket.
What I was refering to was the %75 original ingrediants required by the International Association of Transportation Museum's standards for airframes displayed (flying or not) to be qualified as original. Wasn't the FAA, my bad.
Like I said, if its an original, SAVE IT. Make copies and CRASH THOSE INSTEAD.
Lord knows you can always find another pilot....... :cry
Hang, you threatened by the inverted ballsack appearance of this latest smilie?
:O
-
not at all. just seeing it next to the words 'pride' and in particular 'dignity' struck me as somewhat incongruous.
in·con·gru·ous adj.
1. Lacking in harmony; incompatible
2. Not in agreement, as with principles; inconsistent
3. Not in keeping with what is correct, proper, or logical.
-
How much training in emergency deadstick landing does the average real pilot recieve?
-
Originally posted by Pooh21
How much training in emergency deadstick landing does the average real pilot recieve?
It's pretty standard that you have to demonstrate a simulated power off landing to get your PPL.
BTW, thanks for the info, Bodhi.
-
Can we say the same thing about vintage cars?
These aircraft were designed to fly. Let them fly. Everything has a lifespan, including aircraft. It ends one way or the other. A warbird that's a smoking hole in the ground is no more dead than a warbird that's fallen apart because it was placed in a museum. Seeing them in one thing, but seeing them fly is another.
-
I'm afraid this thread is proof that I am the only intelligent being in the universe :eek:
-
Originally posted by Yeager
I'm afraid this thread is proof that I am the only intelligent being in the universe :eek:
:lol I can see your point man... and I get mixed feelings every time one goes down. But trust me on this.... when it gets to the point where EVERYONE in the universe is an idiot and you are the only intelligent person left then you need to take a squint at the possibilty you might be a tad bit "off" (mentally speaking). :D
-
Originally posted by Yeager
Like I said, if its an original, SAVE IT. Make copies and CRASH THOSE INSTEAD.
Lord knows you can always find another pilot.......
For God sakes, it's just a hunk of flipping sheetmetal with an engine....
While you might not think so, Art's life was worth more than all these warbirds put together. It's sad. People place so much stock in a piece of metal and so little in a person's life.
You're sick Yeager.
-
ok bodhi......Im sick :rolleyes:
Pilots know and accept the risk of powered flight. Whats more important than ourselves is our combined future. We have a duty to preserve our heritage for future generations, people like you want to play with that heritage out of a confused sense of self-gratification and the result is a threatened and diminishing heritage of flight, now THATS SICK :p
Like I said, pull the originals and park em. Go make your copies...sounds like fun...fly em crash em and burn em to hell and back....... Just save the originals.
-
Yeager, you don't seem to comprehend that "parking them" usually amounts to destroying them anyway. Like I said, it's just about "feeling good".
I also find it ironic that the real Yeager flies warbirds.
As I've said before, there's nothing a "real" airplane can do in a museum that a slapped-together metal shell can't do. They gather dust equally as well.
J_A_B
-
lolo..so true.."yeager"...you use his name..and he flys original warbirds..
HES A BAD MAN!!!!!!!!!!..Would you tell him hes an idiot and doesnt deserve to fly them? So you can have an original..rusting ina shed..that few people will get to see...
yeager...so you wan tot ban alll vintage aircraft...
thank cod you dont have control
That means I would have never flew in the b-24 ..or a b-17
Id like to kick you for that..becuase those 2 flights were parts of my life Ill never forget
-
that old codger should have been grounded years ago.
Just wait and see, chances are he will auger in the P51 he is flying when his ticker finally craps out. Neither can be replaced once they are gone, lets at least keep one of em around.
The word here you need to understand is "PRESERVE"
Airplanes that are restored and kept clean and dry will last one hundred human lifetimes. At the rate we are going all the originals still flying will be gone in less than five lifetimes. You peeps are selfish, typical greeders.
-
When I was a kid, I used to camp on the state beach north of the LA county line.. Zuma. It was great.. got to surf, swim, sail, have a beach fire, watch the jets working in and out of Pt. Magu NAS.
The beach was never overcrowded, there was no trash; folks took their trash out with 'em. State collected a small fee.
Then one day it was all over. Preservationists succeeded in denying the beach to campers. All kinnds of restrictions popped up, from parking to beach fires and out by dusk..
Result.. nothing. The beach is still there.. but you can't enjoy it. Just look at it. Yah know what.. if it was left as it was when I was a kid, the beach would still be there.
Whats the point of denying enjoyment of something? That beach is like a warbird. Looks neat. But it's nothing compared to the experience of it in actual use. Examples of warbirds in Museums will be around for a long long time to come.. but funtional Flying Warbirds are under threat not from flight attrition.. but from dimple brained anti-divit organizations like the FAA.
This mentalaity of 'preservation' by denial of use is absurd.. "lookie, no touchie, no useie" is total BS.
Yeager, WWII Warbirds are at far more risk from being grounded by FAA hugahunks and encroaching federal saftey standards than they are from flight attrition. The FAA and Aircraft Insurers will get the results you are looking for eventually.
In the meantime, lets fly 'em; while we still can. So we can TRULY enjoy them by the experience.
-
"You peeps are selfish, typical greeders."
Really?
And you're extremely naive if you think more than a small percentage of museums actually have the resources to "preserve" their complex mechanical exhibits. Most if not all the museums with such resources already have most if not all the stuff they can handle.
Be it airplane or locomotive or whatever, in most cases they sit around and rot. I'd present you with the sad story of locomotive #2700 which is parked at Dennison Railroad Museum, except I doubt you'd get the point.
Let's just say that after decades of "preservation" everything that can be stripped off it--has. An increasing number of people want it dragged off and scrapped because it's nothing but a pitiful eyesore. Even its boiler cladding is gone. THAT is the sort of "preservation" you get at a majority of museums.
J_A_B
-
I believe the warbird numbers have only been increasing over the years not declining. Plus the only reason we have so many around is because they are flown. If they werent flown they would have been scrapped long ago.
-
Originally posted by Yeager
Airplanes that are restored and kept clean and dry will last one hundred human lifetimes. At the rate we are going all the originals still flying will be gone in less than five lifetimes. You peeps are selfish, typical greeders.
That statement is so wrong.
-
Hangtime, thank you for the clarity your analogy provides. Plus, I now want to go to the beach, light a fire and drink beer, cool :cool:
JAB, I appreciate the choochoo story. I never was a train enthusiast but I know lots of peeps that are. Good story.
Dnil, thoughtful response and one that deserves reflection......
I will concede that as long as some genuine specimens of each type are maintained on the ground, in safety, for the ages to enjoy, its alright to fly the rest and crash and burn them one by one until none remain in flyable condition. Just as long as there are genuine relics left in existance for future generations to enjoy.
Again, reverse engineer the original F6Fs, P38s, P51s....many restorations are performed with hardly any of the original carcass......leave the originals as they are, preserve them....go fly and crash the copies for the masses to enjoy.
-
You think Roy Schoffner would have spent $6 MILLION to recover and restore "Glacier Girl" if he'd been told it couldn't be flown? You think Bob Cardin would have spent TEN YEARS of his life running the project?
Anyway, what gives anyone the right to tell these people they can't fly their planes?
I've seen Steve Hinton take "Glacier Girl" up and fly her harder than I've flown a virtual P-38 in AHII. A one of a kind P-38, valued at in excess of $8 million. I loved every second of it. I'll go up there every time he flies it.
I saw the F6F-5 fly several times. I'll miss it and Art deeply, for many years to come. But ground them, so no one else could enjoy the experience anymore? NEVER!
I've got some more bad news for you. If I win the lottery, I'm going to go get my twin IFR rating, and then I'm going to take Bodhi around for about 90 days and buy up every piece of P-38 we can find. We might even go to Greenland. I think he and Bob Cardin need some more work.
While they're busy, I'm going to buy an AT-6 and go spend about 120 days or so at Chino paying Steve Hinton and Chris Fahey to teach me to fly warbirds.
After that, I'll see what I can go buy to fly. Hell, I think I'll even volunteer to ferry some around so everyone else can see them, somebody has to pick up where Art left off, if I come into the money, by God I'll do it for damned sure. I'll even buy the gas.
-
Doesnt change a thing. Fact is there are a finite number of originals left and you sorts wont be happy until EVERY SINGLE ONE has been destroyed, all to satisfy some perverted desire to experience the "thrill" of seeing one in flight.
Go build copies, its like model building afterall....fun, and fly those....crash em and burn em to your hearts content, leave the originals for your childrens children to enjoy.
Glacier Girl is a 8 million dollar disaster waiting to happen. Keep that BEAUTIFUL warbird OTG!!!
-
Back to the original subject.
From http://www.aero-news.net:
Art Vance and the POF F6F-5 (http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=4cae7bf1-5cec-4c88-8009-c140319d4df2&)
From the ntsb, at http://www.ntsb.gov:
preliminary (http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20051012X01621&key=1)
-
"Glacier Girl is a 8 million dollar disaster waiting to happen. Keep that BEAUTIFUL warbird OTG!!!"
You missed the point....that "$8 million disaster" would still be sitting underneath a couple hundred feet of ice if he wouldn't have been allowed to fly it. Heck, there's a bunch of other P-38's down there and a B-17 too. Why isn't anyone digging them up to put 'em in a museum?
Yeager, you're reminding me of a guy sitting with his hands over his ears yelling "I'M NOT LISTENING!". You want them "preserved" in museums while ignoring that museum examples get destroyed too--either by sudden disaster, or by the slow ravages of time. You've also failed to say even a single thing that a "real" airplane can do in a static setting that a mock-up can't. I've seen plenty of museum aircraft that were barely more than hollowed-out wrecks with a shiney paintjob and thick layer of dust. Is that what you call "preservation"?
As far as the "grandchildren enjoying them" goes...the last time I took any kids to a museum full of dusty old airplanes, they were bored out of their little kid minds.
J_A_B
-
JAB. your points are well taken.
-
Hmmmm.......
Side A:
Fix'em up and fly'em.
Side B:
"I am the Lorax! I speak for the trees. Please stop chopping down all the truckular(sp?) trees."
-
I would be fine if the FAA stopped granting flight status to any vintage relic when the numbers become less than 5 of that type, subvariants included. Allowing for flight only when necessary to preserve the type, not for demonstration.
Hmmm....perhaps I will shoot off a email to my FAA buddies.....start a PAC!
-
dangerous thinking yeager.
it was my understanding that in a capitalist democracy the entire premise of ownership devolves around the rights of the owner to control the destiny of his property.
if it's my airplane, what gives you the right to decide if i fly it or not?
frankly, the FAA is bad enough.. a freakin buncha self-important non-flying stuffed shirts that are employed for sole for the purpose of screwin with honest folks that love avation.
and your premise of proposing that the owners of airplanes be denied the use of their property, ironicly warbirds once used to secure liberty...
sir you reduce yourself to a level somewhat below those dirtbag FAA ramp titwillows by even suggesting such a travesty on the american rights of property, personal freedom, individual liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
Sureley Yeager, you have not thought this out at all, or you are merely bored to tears and are just having some droll fun with us while yer swilling wine coolers and picking your toenails. ;)
-
Hang, do it for the children!
VOTE YES ON THE WARBIRDS PRESERVATION ACT!!!!!
Please!
-
With proper maintenance, decent funding and a proper pilot, flying warbirds will last just as long as hangered warbirds, if not longer.
My grandfather flew the Confederate Air Force's F4U Corsair for several years. That same aircraft is still flying to this day and has been for the last 20 years. Nothing has happened to it yet, as far as I know. THe way you make it sound, that aircraft should be scrap by now. But it's not...
Hangered aircraft suffer far more than flying aircraft. Grounding warbirds to "preserve" them is the wrong thing to do, because while you may drag out their lifespan, you're not doing them a service.
I don't go to museums to learn about these aircraft. There's nothing I could learn from a museum. I learned all I know from books, from personal accounts and from watching these birds fly. What's more educational? Explaining how these planes fly or showing how these planes fly?
-
no bites on the PETA board trolls either, enh?
-
"...Instrument meteorological conditions prevailed and no flight plan was filed..."
I hate to say something bad about a guy who just died, but that is just not smart flying.
"...Grumman F6F Corsair, N4994V..."
That is sloppy NTSB investigation reporting so maybe I should hold my tounge about the pilot.
-
Seeing a not flight worthy warbird in static display at a museum is like seeing a stuffed cheetah.
Seeing a flight worthy warbird in static display at a museum is like seeing a caged cheetah.
Seeing a cheetah stretch out and run down an antelope in the wild is truly seeing the animal. If you love warbirds, let them fly.
-
better to have them in a cage then dead
-
Originally posted by ramzey
better to have them in a cage then dead
Stuffed cheetahs usually are dead.
What's the point of having a real, flight worthy example of a warbird if not to fly it?
-
The difference is that with an airworthy one, there is an oil drip pan on the museum floor.
also, some tough guy with a high performance & complex endorement might steal it
-
So what your saying is that a one of a kind airplane, brought back to life but non flyable is a worthless piece of crap not worthy of a tossed rock.
I have seen some of THE MOST RETARDED logic EVAR in this thread.
-
Yes, we're retarded because we feel vintage aircraft should be flown and enjoyed.
Silly us for not bowing down and agreeing with you. :rolleyes:
-
SIR!!!! WE HAVE DUST IN THE MUSEUM!!!!!! CALL IN THE GUARD!!!!!!
Dont make me come down to Texas fella........
:D
-
So when did you go all Commie on us Yeager? Since when is it OK for the government to tell you what to do with something you own?
Whats next? No cars older then 10 years cause they may not be safe?
-
well....there must be some car somewhere thats so rare that it is no longer driven around in the standard fashion........plus cars dont fly :O
I really loved the one guy that said put all the replicas in the museums and crash all the vintage planes :confused:
-
http://steamlocomotive.info/vlocomotive.cfm?Display=929
THIS is what happens when people like Yeager "preserve" their stuff on static display. No, it isn't an airplane....the point is the same.
Apparently that fate is "better" than using them and risking damage.
Personally, I think it's a pathetic shame.
For every 1 piece of equipment that is preserved nicely on static display, you end up with 10 in that condition.
J_A_B
-
I still dont think locomotives fall out of the sky and end up in 30,000 little torn bits of crunched up burnt aluminum and wiring.......
-
Would you like to end your life as a shriveled shell wasting away in a retirement home somewhere where people walk past and watch you wither?
Or would you give all of that up to go back to your prime stretch your legs in a big blue pasture? Nobody said the airplanes have to crash...if they did I wouldn't fly. If it was really that dangerous I wouldn't fly as an occuption. I'd go back to the insurance business.
-
You DO realize that locomotives can explode, don't you? Several years ago at the county fair here, a steam traction engine blew up, killing several people and destroying the engine.
It's the exact same issue as airplanes. Use them and risk the rare accident, or let them sit and rot away. You'd rather let them rot, all the while bragging about how you're "saving" them. I know you mean well enough, but your intentions don't usually result in what you think they do.
I linked a picture. Tell me if you think that's a great example of "preservation"--because it IS an all too typical example.
Case in point...#2701, a sister locomotive of the 2700, was put on static display in Buffalo NY. It was vandalized so badly that the remaining eyesore was dragged off and scrapped.
The SAME thing happens with parked airplanes; I link the locomotives because I'm more familiar with the field. I'm sure Bodhi or Savage have their own sad examples of neglected and ruined static "preserved" airplanes.
J_A_B
-
dude........where do I recommend letting anything "rot"....
And yes steam locomotives definately xSPLODE. so dont power the damned things up. People get hurt....
Where I come from (western civilization) our museums tend to be rather well cared for. The one near me, the Museum of Flight, has very little dust.
In fact, they have a rather Nice looking collection of flying machines. One of my favourites is a beautiful F4U that was pulled up from a lake bottom, all rot. It was restored over many years and is now immaculate...hear that? IMMACULATE and the best news is it WONT EVAR get rot now...NEVAR ROT!!!!!
:rofl
-
Originally posted by Yeager
dude........where do I recommend letting anything "rot"....
And yes steam locomotives definately xSPLODE. so dont power the damned things up. People get hurt....
Where I come from (western civilization) our museums tend to be rather well cared for. The one near me, the Museum of Flight, has very little dust.
In fact, they have a rather Nice looking collection of flying machines. One of my favourites is a beautiful F4U that was pulled up from a lake bottom, all rot. It was restored over many years and is now immaculate...hear that? IMMACULATE and the best news is it WONT EVAR get rot now...NEVAR ROT!!!!!
:rofl
I think it's actually a Goodyear FG-1D. I think they have another Goodyear as well. Maybe different model though.
-
"dude........where do I recommend letting anything "rot"...."
You do, you just naively don't realize it.
Museum of Flight is known as one of the rare few museums which actually does care for its exhibits. Duxford is another. Such places are the exception, not the rule.
If all flying WW2 airplanes were grounded, do you seriously think that they'd all be kept in that kind of condition? Please, don't kid yourself. Most of them would wind up as neglected hulks in some forgotten hangar, scavenged for parts or souveneirs. Very few museums actually have the money to care for that kind of complex equipment. The ones which DO have the money have little trouble finding all the stuff they can manage.
If I want to see a lifeless, odorless, quiet hulk I can just look at pictures in a book. Be it an airplane or a locomotive...it has a certain life that you can only experience when its in operation. Anyone who REALLY cares about them understands that! That F6F shakes the ground with a roar that can be heard 10 miles away...you feel it in every bone in your body. The kids scream in delight, men nod knowingly, and women cover their ears! The locomotive's popping valves and coal smoke and the shotgun blast of the exhaust makes for memories that'll last a lifetime. Look at people's faces when their cars stop at the grade crossing and instead of the usual diesel freight train it's a 100 foot fire-breathing monster that rumbles the ground as it thunders past. None of that is possible with a static hulk.
It's about more than preserving the machine--it's about preserving the experience. It's called "living history" and, fortunately, it's a catching trend.
J_A_B
-
Well JAB, Kudos to you then.
Still, every time one of these rare planes is destroyed the entire community of flight is degraded. I dont care really, as long as someone, somewhere has a preserved machine. Sort of like Noahs' Hanger.
-
Originally posted by Yeager
So what your saying is that a one of a kind airplane, brought back to life but non flyable is a worthless piece of crap not worthy of a tossed rock.
I have seen some of THE MOST RETARDED logic EVAR in this thread.
No, what I am saying is that I would rather see a cheetah running after an antelope in the Serengeti than a dead stuffed one in a museum in London.
We should strive as long as it is possible to see endangered cats in the wild: to catch and cage all of them is to lose something.
A close parallel exist for machinery. To see a 150 year old running steam engine, to see a flying warbird, to see a model T travelling down the boulevard, to see a three masted schooner under full sail... these sights are better than seeing them in a museum doing nothing but gathering dust. It was not what they were intended to do.
-
"To see a 150 year old running steam engine, to see a flying warbird, to see a model T travelling down the boulevard, to see a three masted schooner under full sail..."
And tragically, all of the above are threatened by government buffoons and an out-of-control insurance industry.
J_A_B
-
Doesn’t the Smithsonian have a whole warehouse full of old WW2 planes they have not touched and are basicaly rotting away?
There are enough planes in museums, even the loss of all the ones in private hands would not mean lost history.
-
A large fraction of what used to be in Air & Space's warehouses in Maryland is at the new Air & Space out by Dulles. Still a lot of nice aircraft in pieces in the warehouses, though
-
To hijack this thread about this terrible loss of unreplaceable human life and loss of an historic aircraft for your own soap boxing is just wrong.
-
pass the soap......
-
Nothing compares to the sight and sound of a vintage WWII warbird in flight.
I must confess that I am torn between the two sides of this argument. While I do not wish to be deprived of the privilege of witnessing such a magnificent spectacle, there is no denying the fact that the Planes of Fame F6F-5 is irretrievably lost. There is also no denying the fact that as long as these planes are flown they will continue to fall victim to the laws of inevitability.
The day is rapidly approaching, if it is not already upon us, when we as aviation enthusiasts will have to make a painful decision. Do we continue to fly them until NOTHING is left of that generation of historic aircraft? Or do we make some attempt to preserve the final remnant for posterity.
As sad as the reality is, I think we are going to be forced to place these aircraft in museums. If we wish to continue to enjoy the sights and sounds of historic warbirds, then we will have to contribute our money and time into efforts to have them reverse engineered and fully functional replicas constructed.
If we're going to preserve ANYTHING I do not think we have any other choice.
-
This ain't a 'we' question. It's a 'you' question.
If YOU wan't to buy up all the flyable WWII aircraft and store them in static displays, you are welcome to do so.
Meanwhile, the actual owners of those aircraft are fully justified in telling anybody that want's to infringe on their rights of property to go **** themselves.
-
There is a vast difference, Hangtime, between owning property and owning a national heritage.
While I cherish the right to do with one's property as one wishes, should we sit idly by while wealthy individuals or groups buy up these exceedingly scarce and tired airframes, spend large amounts of money restoring them, and then flying them until the inevitable happens?
I think not...for we are rapidly approaching the point of no return.
Aviation enthusiasts should make every effort to encourage the owners to ground these aircraft as much as possible. No expense should be spared to engineer and build new replacements for the originals.
If you simply MUST see a WWII aircraft...why wouldn't a fully functioning replica work just as well?
-
It's not your decision, nor your right to decide. You don't own it.
And this is a current big problem with this gawdamned society.. just what in hell gives you or anybody else the right to decide dispostion of property owned by private citizens?
The gall of deciding for the owner of an aircraft that was once used to settle the pressing question of liberty.. jesus; have we already surrendered our rights as citizens to others who have no vested inerest in that proprety?
Our government already owns examples of those airplanes, displayed at national museums.. why do you feel you have a right to ursurp the property rights of private citizens? Greed? Envy? Dangerous small minded self important little people deciding for others with the means and skills to obtain their lifelong dreams are shut down, their property nutered and reduced in esoteric and real value for WHAT purpose again?
I don't give a good gawdamned how valuable anybody thinks my 70 year old spam can is to 'society'.. It's my damn spam can, and if I wanna to eat it, I'm gonna. If I decide to buy all the picasso's I can get my hands on and burn them in my furnace, tell me.. aside from my poor taste in furnace fuel, whatcha gotta say about it? There's plenty of perfect fakes out there already...
If what folks are REALLY upset about is the potential 'waste'.. too damn bad. If they wanna protect all the picasso's and spam can's, then pool yer money & buy 'em up and 'protect' 'em. If your government decides to sell it's planes outta the smithsonian, protest. But keep yer small minded jealous little breaucrats the hell outta private citizens personal business with their personal property.
-
The 'ell's the matter with people on these boards? Can't we carry on a civil discourse anymore?
Guess it was a bit hard to fathom the points I was trying to make in my posts while looking through all that red mist.
At NO time did I suggest that the government should TAKE AWAY those aircraft from their owners. I SAID that we should ENCOURAGE them to keep them on the ground as much as possible.
You're built too low to the ground son...that one just flew right over your head. You got a hole in your glove...I keep pitchin' em and you keep missin' em. You gotta keep your eye on the ball. Eye! Ball! I almost had a gag, son. Joke, that is.
-
the problem is they arent flown enough. engines like to run, not sit.
Blame the insurance companies where planes are sometimes only insured for a couple flights.
I was at the airshow where the last regularly flown A-20 crashed. This was back in the mid 80s or so. At the time I think it was the only flyable one left. Now we have at least 1 flyable, but not flown and 4-5 more being restored to fly. Thats a big increase from zero. Now if these werent being made to fly they wouldnt be restored at all. So thank the owners who want to fly for adding more A-20s to the world.
-
Originally posted by Shuckins
The 'ell's the matter with people on these boards? Can't we carry on a civil discourse anymore?
Guess it was a bit hard to fathom the points I was trying to make in my posts while looking through all that red mist.
At NO time did I suggest that the government should TAKE AWAY those aircraft from their owners. I SAID that we should ENCOURAGE them to keep them on the ground as much as possible.
You're built too low to the ground son...that one just flew right over your head. You got a hole in your glove...I keep pitchin' em and you keep missin' em. You gotta keep your eye on the ball. Eye! Ball! I almost had a gag, son. Joke, that is.
Well, I din't call yah a pinhead.
For me, that's exceedingly civil.
Q:.. just how would you 'encourage' the owner to ground his aircraft? Tax his ass? Pull his ticket for medical review? Make him submit a 4" thick pile of 'special flight' applications and raise his insurance rates?
Ain't this how we lost the right to bear arms.. by making it unbearable for the average guy to navigate the regulations, pay the taxes?
'Sure you can fly your warbird, once you complete the paperwork.'
(hands over the 4" thick pile of forms)
"Your Application and Special Use Fee Payment?"
(hands over $5,000 check)
"Thank you. Lets inspect the aircraft now, shall we? Oh, my; such a shame. Your valve caps don't have an an FAA exemption. We'll have to impound your aircraft. So sorry."
AND THEY ALREADY GET AWAY WITH THIS KIND OF CRAP RIGHT NOW!!![/I]
Yer a disgrace to the state of Arkansas, and a poor excuse for an American to advocate any infringement on the rights of the people to pusue their lives, their liberty and their pursuit of happiness with thier own personal property.
So, what are your intrests really? PC Nanny State BS your thing? Or are you really an american citizen, on guard against the infringements of the rights of your fellow citizens?
Think 'civilly' about your reply.
-
I hardly think that attempts to encourage vintage aircraft owners to restrict their flying time will result in the downfall of the Republic.
-
just a little bit at a time.. suspend a small right here, infringe a little on personal liberty there...
Shukins, that's just wrong. Your part of the problem.. and that's a damn shame because the folks that SHOULD have their rights infringed upon are folks like you, folks that think it's no big deal to make others pay the price for your perfidity with regards to the rights of Americans.
One day, it will be your property they come for.
-
EMINENT DOMAIN!!!
ALL YOUR WARBIRDS ARE BELONG TO US!!!!!!!
-
They can have my Cavalier when they pry my cold, dead fingers from around the steering wheel.
Lighten up please. You seem to be willfully misconstruing my statements in the original post. At no time was it ever suggested that the government step in and seize control of those privately owned aircraft.
However, I was serious when I suggested that we, as aviation enthusiasts, could encourage the owners to reduce their flight time. We could also help finance efforts to build new aircraft to take over the air-show and recreational flying currently being performed by these historic aircraft.
-
It's been an interesting thing to watch, Hang.
A looooong time ago.... maybe a couple of years even.... you were this independent spirit - saying what you thought, whatever it was, rich in prose and thoughtfulness... and always always true to a spirit that, over time, emerged fully realized as if painted - inch by square inch - across a vast and ready canvass.
Damn the torpedos, no matter the direction. Characture and laziness was your biotch. No matter the topic, you could cut to the gist of a thing in point five seconds flat and, as if in a scene from a Ninja movie, hold their entrails smack in front of folk's eyes just long enough for people to process what just happened - before they collapsed.
I always asked about you after you left. "Where's Hang?"... and "tell him I said Hi.".... and "Tell him to get his bellybutton back in here."
And then, you came back. What a disappointment.
Yer a disgrace to the state of Arkansas, and a poor excuse for an American to advocate any infringement on the rights of the people to pusue their lives, their liberty and their pursuit of happiness with their own personal property.
----
just a little bit at a time.. suspend a small right here, infringe a little on personal liberty there...
Shukins, that's just wrong. Your part of the problem.. and that's a damn shame because the folks that SHOULD have their rights infringed upon are folks like you, folks that think it's no big deal to make others pay the price for your perfidity with regards to the rights of Americans.
One day, it will be your property they come for.
Am I the only person who ponders the heightened level of paranoia with regard to the infringement of personal rights.... during administrations who purport to defend those rights?
And what of the claim itself?
That: "One day, it will be your property they come for?"
Unless of course you're talking about getting your joint bulldozed for a Wallmart - can you be serious?
In the last 6 months, you've bought a gun, have solicited advice on moving to such places as Utah and Ohio (of all godforsaken places), and are freaking out about personal rights.
I just gotta chuckle.... and assume that this really all boils down to some chick... somehow or other. I like the old Hang.
-
Originally posted by Nash
In the last 6 months, you've bought a gun, have solicited advice on moving to such places as Utah and Ohio (of all godforsaken places), and are freaking out about personal rights.
Whatcha got against Ohio?
-
Lots. :D
-
Nash, I call 'em like I see 'em.
Always have. Hot buttons are still the same.. mealy mouthed conceit and PC noises still bring me outta the woodwork. I believe now, just as I did then that politicans are not to be trusted and religionists are selling prosthetics. My paitence has become shorter.... but I never did have anything in the sack that looked even remotely like tact to begin with, so no big change there.
I can recall a time when it was far easier to focus on raising my kid and deal with her problems than it was to sit and wonder what happened to the America I grew up in. But now I look around, and wonder what the hell happened to the Nation I once loved unconditionaly.
Sure, I'm jaundiced. I watched my city get blown up, watched my politicans, some I voted for, march our kids off to a righteous war.. one that turned out to be based on a lie. Watched my kid lose her car (one I bought for her) because a drunk boyfriend 'borrowed' it and got stopped for DWI. Watched a pilot I revered and respected get railroaded by the same government he damn near gave his life to defend. Watched my father in law get screwed outta a 50 year pension and the fat cat executive that stole his money get handed a free pass for doing it. Watched a city die, and the folks that tried to protect themselves and their neighbors in that hellhole get disarmed in violation of the most basic rights. Just watched a guy on Burbon Street get jumped by 5 white cops and beat on for being drunk.. on Burbon Street. And watched the attorney lie thru his teeth to try and justify it. Just another day in the neighborhood. A beautiful day in the neighborhood.
Yea, I'm bitter. The nation I loved is gone. Maybe for good. And, I let it happen. We let it happen. It happened a lil bit at a time. Didn't feel a thing.
Maybe I'm just fed up. And mad. And unwilling to let little **** go by anymore. Because thinking like yours, Yeag, Shuckins has become passe, because it's no longer about the rights of free men anymore.. it's about feel-good legislation that cuts right across the grain of the ideal that the Nation was founded upon.. the Camelot I fought for, the Citadel I defended is a now a hollow sham.
But thanks for caring Nash. Not that I give two ****s one way or the other about what you or anybody else thinks of me.
...and that has never changed.
-
Well said Hang.
We have already given the government so much power over our lives. Giving them more is just idiocy.
Might as well burn the Constitution and let the UN run this nation if we give much more to the government.
-
I couldn't give a damn what your views are, Hang.
It only mattered that they were reasoned, well expressed and, coming from you, artful.
Your last post is why I keep renewing my subscription.
-
I would be slightly mollifed if you looked at your entrails and collapsed now.
-
For one - that didn't happen here.
For two - I've seen way worse. I could prolly fit in a full day's work before it sunk in. So that's not going to happen. :D
-
Bummer. The new kindler gentler O'club format doesn't provide much slack for a truly satisfying evisceration these days.
-
There are ways. :)
-
I wondered why my friend Randy called to talk and why he sounded so sad. Randy has plenty of time in that aircraft, and I am sure Art was a friend.
dago
-
"Whatcha got against Ohio?"
I live in Ohio. Anything Nash thinks is bad about this state is in reality twice as bad. Anything he thinks is good about the place is likely just an error on his part. We have about 5 nice months a year. The other 7 months are divded between a month or two of winter, and 5 or 6 months of what is best described as cold wet slop. Unemployment sucks, the roads suck, and our utility companies suck. Any local growth comes at the expence of some other part of the state since practically everyone who can leave the state, does. Growth is even more limited because most communities are run by cranky old people who hate development. Cleveland has about half the population it had 50 years ago yet somehow twice the crime.
If I still live in this state 10 years from now, I'll have done something very, very wrong.
J_A_B
-
march our kids off to a righteous war.. one that turned out to be based on a lie.
====
You buying that line hang? A lie is intentional.
I still haven't seen any one single bit of proof that Bush knew at the time he ordered the invasion that he knew as a certainty that hussein held no WMD.
If you have have one bit of proof just tell me where to find it.
If anyone knows where the proof of an intentional lie about the "decision to invade Iraq" resides, point it out to me.
I need proof, and I will be greatful for the information.
-
Everyone knows its not polite to mix truth & politics
-
this thread needs to be closed...
thanks Yeager for ruining a discussion about the topic, and most importantly, making Art's life so mundane....
mlm
-
bodhi,
your welcome.
and there really is no reason to close this thread. Everyone has been polite, with the exception of bodhi but even then it was a really weak attempt at being lame.
When a guy climbs into a cockpit and takes off, he knows the risk.
I mourn the mans passing, he was doing what he loved. but I mourn dearly the destruction of a beautiful airframe as well. The people factory is crunching out babies at a grizzly pace, the F6F factory closed about 60 years ago.
-
Originally posted by Yeager
bodhi,
your welcome.
and there really is no reason to close this thread. Everyone has been polite, with the exception of bodhi but even then it was a really weak attempt at being lame.
When a guy climbs into a cockpit and takes off, he knows the risk.
I mourn the mans passing, he was doing what he loved. but I mourn dearly the destruction of a beautiful airframe as well. The people factory is crunching out babies at a grizzly pace, the F6F factory closed about 60 years ago.
This is such a dumb statement I have a hard time believing it. When my good friend crashed and was killed in his AT-6 performing at an airshow was the airplane worth more than the life inside of it? Human life comes first. An airplane is metal, wire, plastic and rubber.
Any airplane wouldn't be special if it wasn't for the people who flew them. I can't say don't forget that, because it seems you never knew it. Consider that a free lesson. I'll say it again.
NO airplane would be special if it wasn't for the people who flew them
-
someone has to stick up for the airplanes.
You guys want to kill them all to enjoy your own silly obsession......THERE ARE A LIMITED NUMBER OF AIRFRAMES, THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF PEOPLE
LIKE I SAID: PILOTS KNOW THE RISK
-
Originally posted by Yeager
someone has to stick up for the airplanes.
You guys want to kill them all to enjoy your own silly obsession......THERE ARE A LIMITED NUMBER OF AIRFRAMES, THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF PEOPLE
LIKE I SAID: PILOTS KNOW THE RISK
You ran out of argument about a page ago. Capital letters aren't going to salvage it.
Again...
Airframes are metal, wire, plastic and rubber. You wouldn't give a damn about them if it wasn't for the people who flew them.
The airplane is a tool. Like the M-1 Garand, the bayonet and the bullet. The F6F didn't shoot down a single enemy fighter. It was the pilots. The people.
-
You wont be happy until you have destroyed every vintage warbird.
there is no argument here.
-
You're right, there isn'y.
No one should stick up for the planes. They, as well as everything mechanical, can be replaced.
A life cannot. Every pilot knows the risk, but that does not make his life worth less than the airplane.
Try telling that to his family, or his friends. Try telling that to anyone who has been killed in a vintage plane crash since the war ended. These aircraft, no matter how valuble or rare, are just machines. They're just tools used to accomplish something. The pilot's life is not worth less than that.
Every last warbird WILL eventually be destroyed by time itself. No matter where it is, airborne or not, time will destroy every single one. You're not going to gain anything by hangering them for all time.
And there's far less damn good pilots than there are vintage aircraft.
-
Originally posted by Yeager
You wont be happy until you have destroyed every vintage warbird.
there is no argument here.
Pretty sure that violates at least one of the now infamous BBs rules.
I'm not sure you get it...I'm not 'riled up' by your posts. I'm very calmly and cooly calling you a troll.
But yes...I find great joy in watching warbirds crash. In fact...it's developed into a fetish than just a kink. I need it. I run a video when I'm with the girlfriend and only climax when I see vintage warbirds wind up as twisted scrap engulfed in avgas fueled flames.
I'm sorry it took so long for me to come to terms and have only you to thank. To you, Yeager...I say thank you.
-
No prob bro. Glad I could help you through this.
Just remember, these old planes are rare and valuable beyond words. Every time one is destroyed you are one closer to having none. Do your part, preserve history.
-
Art once had to bail out of a Corsair on fire.
dago
-
Does that mean we can lock all our WWII vets in special places where they can be kept alive for as long as we want while useless people meander by and ogle at them?
You know, those servicemen are just as old and as storied as the planes they flew. Without them, those "special" planes would be useless piles of junk just like the ones smoking in fields. I bet they can tell better stories, too.
If I wanted to know the history and mechanics of the Corsair, who do you think I would? A museum rep who studies the plane or my grandfather who flew them?
You know how much these planes cost? They have cost, you know...they ain't priceless.
Every time we lose a pilot of a vintage warbird, either one who flew them in the day or one who flies them now, we're losing a valuble part of history. We have plans for these planes...we can build them from the ground up.
We can't build another Art...we can't build another Col. Price. The pilots and the men that fly these craft are more valuble than the machine...all the time and every time.
-
Originally posted by texace
Does that mean we can lock all our WWII vets in special places where they can be kept alive for as long as we want while useless people meander by and ogle at them?
... perhaps we could stuff them and put them on static display.
-
without these planes flying there would be a whole lot less then we have now. Again the numbers are increasing, not decreasing. Yes we lost 1 hellcat but others are waiting to get restored. If they couldnt be flown they wouldnt be restored at all.
-
thats gotta suck to have to bail form such a baddazz plane
floating down wacthing that machien hit ground..
thats got to be one slooow float down
-
Those pilots perfectly know the risks. Any pilot knows the risks. No one holds a gun to their head to make them fly.
-
The pilots and the men that fly these craft are more valuble than the machine...all the time and every time.
====
These airplanes need to be preserved. All I want to know, and have tried to determine in this thread, was if flying them was the best way to preserve them?
Some of the best discussions I have seen on this board in over a year has happened in this thread. Typically, some of the worst too, but that happens in any thread over 3 replys long........
The men who lose their lives flying Warbirds dedicate themselves to a noble purpose, for that I am deeply greatfull and pay may constant respects. I want these airplanes to last as long as possible. The longer the better. I suspect there is someplace in the middle of this discussion where the best answer lies.....has this thread found a prospectful solution?
Almost.....