Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Widewing on October 10, 2005, 12:31:08 AM
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I understand that not having a dedicated throttle, slider or wheel is a handicap. Therefore, I understand why someone would simply kill the engine to throttle back rather than tap the throttle keys like a madman.
However, in the real world this was not an option. In flight, you could consider the E key as a magneto switch. In real fighters, you never shut down an engine by simply switching off the magnetos. Why? Because, while the spark is off, the carb is still pumping fuel into the intake manifold. This fuel accumulates unburned in the cylinders. When you switch the mags back on one of several things will happen:
1) Your plugs are fouled, meaning the engine may never restart, and if it does, odds are you will have a major power loss and/or:
2) The fuel ignites and the resulting detonation blows the exhaust stacks off or backfires through the intake, with a possiblity of engine damage and even a fire.
Add to that the problem of the fuel washing the oil from the cylinder walls, which can lead to broken rings and in extreme cases, can lead to engine failure.
The correct way to shut down an engine is by moving the mixture lever to the idle cut-off position. This cuts the flow of fuel and that fuel in the manifold is burned.
However, in-flight things are not as simple as pushing the lever back up to lean or rich. The engine likely will not instantly start up. And there's the little problem of manipulating mags and mixture while fighting for one's life.
There are other, game related issues.
Some fighters respond differently than others to cutting the engine(s) with the E key. With the Spitfire, you can simply toggle the engine off and on and have instant power available. Not so with the P-38. You must go through the entire start-up sequence to get power back. This is a programming flaw. Every aircraft should have to go through the start-up sequence, not just some.
Then there is the argument that cutting power with the E key is no different that cobbing back the throttle. This is not true. I tested the snot out of this tonight and using the E key vs the throttle resulted in quicker reduction of speed. Flying a SpitV, I would allow speed to build to 250 mph. At precisely that speed, I hit the E key and measured the time required to decelerate to 200 mph. I did the same using the throttle. My results showed that it took 7.4 seconds to slow down using the E key and 7.7 to 7.8 seconds using the throttle. Not a lot, but in a really close fight it could be the difference. So why does the E key slow you faster? It takes 0.3-0.4 seconds to move the throttle to idle, whereas the E key is instantaneous. Likewise, it takes the same time to push the throttle fully forward as it did to pull it off. Again, the E key provides for instant power. If this is done 4 or 5 times in a fight, a measurable difference can be expected.
This whole issue would be moot if all the aircraft responded accurately to shutting down the motor in flight. For those guys without a throttle slider/wheel or even a separate throttle; they would be forced to get one or suffer with having to tap the +/- keys like crazy.
My regards,
Widewing
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His right,
I was riding my GSX1100E and it suddenly died going down hill, I kept rolling for about ten seconds before I realise that I had hit the kill switch By accident
I flicked it back on and the old bike gave the most almighty bang, it blew a 8 inch square hole in the exhaust.
The whole made the dam thing so loud that It hurt my ears riding at crusing speed on the freeway.
But dam It sounded cool ideling at the lights.
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Agree, they should definatly have to go through the whole start up sequence.
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I agree too.
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I posted htis int he other thread as well:
I recently read an article on 'shock cooling' as a result of engine idle, engine off while in flight. Cold air rushing across the engine caused them to cool unevenly, in some cases cracks were observed (this on idle) in areas on the engine.
Aircraft like the 109 and Stuka etc.. were restricted from 0 throttle dives (109 min rpm was 800 rpm). This may have had something to do with synchronization for the MGs but I have read where shock cooling caused issues with the DB engine. So much so that 109 Jabo pilots were trained similarly to those in Stukas about not throttling back to 0, let alone turning off their engines.
I imagine the impact of shock cooling will be even worse on air cooled engines.
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Widewing I suspect when the new spits are released they'll be like the p38 is now. It does take time to work through the entire stable of Aircraft.
Agree that it shouldn't just cut & go again.
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I have never cut engines on Spits. And since im not having the E key mapped to joystick, i guess the time it would take me to remove my hand from stick to cut eng and swich it on again later would nullify the 'advantage'. I dont know if its really an advantage or if it just appears to be one.
What i *did* do though, not neccessarily conciously and deliberatly, was using the eng cutout when pulling negative Gs in a Hurri Mk1, usually with throttle idle anyway (on attempted overshoots). Hurr1 does go through the startup sequence after cutouts, even worse, if the cutout time was too long, the engine is shut of completly and needs to be restarted manually (E).
I still think it should be possible to kill eng inflight, but agree that the usual startup sequence should be implemented.
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Yup should be possible to kill engine in flight, but pherhaps (in ToD atleast) with some more "cons" then just the 2 or 3 second start sequence.
Would be nice...
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<-------- Agrees
We should also have more engine settings :)
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Originally posted by frank3
We should also have more engine settings :)
While i would love to have those, i think it would make game too complicated for beginners (some newbies - including myself - have never flown a flight sim before, and AH is already very hard to learn as it is)
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Actually I find Aces High very newb-friendly compared to other flight-sims!
But we must not make it much harder to use I agree
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A check box for
"Engine Managment Controls"
Much like auto takeoff, or combat trim.
an A/C using auto engine managment would suffer a 5% penalty in performance. Newbs can still fly and kill but those who take the time to learn the controls would have the advantage. Much like the stall limiter. I would love to see more engine controls added to the game.
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Widewing: The difference in time you suggest may be due to prop pitch. When you throttle back the RPM decrease (Not sure if this is an automatic thing in plane engines, of if AH simulates the pilot rolling RPM back with less boost) but when you shut the eng off that doesn't happen. It's still at full RPM, which means you've got more drag (and slow down slightly faster).
Considering it's such a small difference between the times, I think it's just the pitch of the prop.
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No, rpm/pitch and mainfold pressure/throttle are controlled seperatly in AH.
So throttled back or eng off, the pitch stays the same.
But maybe its the same like in a car. When you reduce throttle to idle, the motor slows down the wheels (ie adds drag to the prop turning) as compared to just hitting the clutch/shutting off motor.
Maybe we should ask mechanic ;).
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Originally posted by Schatzi
No, rpm/pitch and mainfold pressure/throttle are controlled seperatly in AH.
So throttled back or eng off, the pitch stays the same.
Try it again :P
There *IS* a connection between RPM and throttle. At any given throttle setting you can tweak RPMs, but if you reduce RPMs too low your boost goes down. If you leave RPMs alone and throttle back, your RPMs go down. If you throttle back to nothing your RPM reduce to almost nothing.
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Originally posted by Krusty
but if you reduce RPMs too low your boost goes down.
Except for turbo-charged (or supercharged?) planes like the P-47 --> reduce rpm, MP stays the same
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You have a certain "grace period" in which you can fiddle with the RPM or the MAP and you won't affect the other. However the two are locked in a balancing act. Every plane has its own tolerance. Example: 190a5 has a small one, you reduce RPMs and the MAP moves in short order, but on the Ki67 you can reduce RPM and not affect the MAP for a while (hypothetical example).
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I do think it would take long for someone to learn how to effectively use throttle and rpm control seperately, one must first know what they mean, and what they do (which a great deal of players does not)
I like Kevy's idea though;
A check box for
"Engine Managment Controls"
Much like auto takeoff, or combat trim.
an A/C using auto engine managment would suffer a 5% penalty in performance. Newbs can still fly and kill but those who take the time to learn the controls would have the advantage. Much like the stall limiter. I would love to see more engine controls added to the game.
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I don't like that idea because we already have it. As you throttle up your RPM increase. Throttle back RPM decrease. Hit WEP? Instant 1-key option for over-boosting your engine, which is not just a simple "press me to speed up" button in reality.
We already HAVE newbie-safe controls, which is why there are so many newbies in AH. They dont' HAVE to learn RPM controls and such.
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We have that, but no 5% performance penalty
However, why spend more time in mastering the of independantly used rpm & throttle for only 5%?
If it IS considered, it should be a little more, making it worth the 'trouble'
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There's nothing to master. You press a key. You press another key. RPM goes up. RPM goes down. Heck the E6B even tells you what to set it at. There's nothing to master, and even if you don't reduce RPM just simply throttling back saves you a lot of gas.
No reason to add a feature that's not necessary. It's not like manually adjusting RPMs helps you anyways (it helps in a few odd circumstances and then it only helps a little). By saying "newbies" with "automatic RPM control" (which we already have) lose 5% performance is like saying "You're too dumb to have WEP, sorry you can't use it".
Don't forget we're not role playing here. We're simming. Each one of the "pilots" has already passed flight training and is a competent pilot. That's a baseline so that whatever combat takes place is on a fair basis. By hindering pilots in their abilities you make combat unfair.
Besides, even the newest newbies in spitVs and N1K2s are getting kills. If that fails they just up a dora or an la7.
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Hmm, well HTC would never add something like this anyway, it scares off too many people IMO
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Just look at all the problems IL2 ran into with it :P
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........................>cricket noise<...........................
:D
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Originally posted by Krusty
Try it again :P
There *IS* a connection between RPM and throttle. At any given throttle setting you can tweak RPMs, but if you reduce RPMs too low your boost goes down. If you leave RPMs alone and throttle back, your RPMs go down. If you throttle back to nothing your RPM reduce to almost nothing.
Yep, one way. If you reduce rmp considerably, mainfold pressure cant be maintained, ie is lowered. But if you reduce throttle, rpms stay the same.
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Originally posted by Schatzi
Yep, one way. If you reduce rmp considerably, mainfold pressure cant be maintained, ie is lowered. But if you reduce throttle, rpms stay the same.
In what plane? I know of no aircraft in the game right now that has the same RPM at no throttle as it does at full throttle.
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Krusty: The Rpm and throttle are in no way linked in AH.
Your prop will stay the same RPM if you do not move the RPM lever. This is true until 1 of 2 conditions happen.
1. Underspeed. Basicly the prop is up against the flat pitch stops and can no longer decrease pitch to maintain rpm.
2. Over speed , the prop is Now up against the max pitch stops, and going faster will increase its RPM.
Changing RPM will effect mainifold pressure.
The engine drives a comprossor (i.e. Super Charger) if the engine slows down do to change in RPM, the max pressure this compresor can put out is lowered, hence even thow you can be full throttle you manifold pressure will drop.
These little details are modled in AH. Infact if you put them against the charts you will find they follow the charts for MP. Couldn't find min and max prop angles on all planes, so we estimate those.
As for the WEP button, it is equivlant of taking your left hand and pushing all 3 leveres full forward.
HiTech
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Originally posted by hitech
1. Underspeed. Basicly the prop is up against the flat pitch stops and can no longer decrease pitch to maintain rpm.
2. Over speed , the prop is Now up against the max pitch stops, and going faster will increase its RPM.
That must be what I'm seeing.
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Note also that every single-engine fighter can use the E key to instantly turn power on and off. All twin-engine fighters (P-38s, Bf 110s and Mosquito) all must go through the normal start sequence if they shut down engines.
Since we have the new P-51s, P-47s, P-38s, 190s and Ki-84 and this gamey option still exists for all but the P-38s...I must assume that it will still be present with the new Spitfires and 109s.
Since this is somewhat confusing, perhaps someone can provide an explanation why:
1) It exists in the first place.
2) Why multi-engine fighters are different.
In my opinion, based upon well over 2,000 hours as Flight Engineer and Crew Chief on radial powered military aircraft (R-2800 and R-1830) is that no aircraft should be able to cut power and instantly restart without performing normal restart (as on the ground, or an air start procedure).
My regards,
Widewing