Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: gatt on October 10, 2005, 01:00:53 PM
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I've been practising Hit&Climb techniques with C.205 and G-10 for ages but one thing I cannot understand is how the defender can successfully scissors and get the attacker's tail when the latter:
- has a huge speed advantage;
- doesnt turn at all after the defender break turn;
- shallow climbs away wepping;
- he doesnt get below the defenders horizontal plane.
How the defender can position himself on the tail of the attacker and, above all, often at fire range?
It happens not only during high speed chases but even during attacks on level-flying fighters low on the deck. It happens often with N1K, Spits and La. Is there a trick or it is an "FM' energy management concession"?
:huh
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Its called AH Phisics 101. After taking the class, you will be able to do a 180 in a spit, follow a G10 -that did not turn in anyway - up and blow him out of the sky.
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Its alot easier to understand what's going on when you film it and watch who's burning E and who's gaining E.
I make my living in the MA by basicly flying deffensively. Having someone in on you with more E or alt or both as an advantage and then slowly take that advantage away. It may seem like they've become co-E with you but in reality all they've done is made you burn just enough E to close the advantage gap between you and them enough to hang on and get a quick shot.
And the shots do not last long, that's why I said quick. Because if you get 2 seconds to shoot after an over shot that's a long time.
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Dedalos,
hmmmm, lag turns could be the answer .. who knows. However, what you describe happens even when during the merge there is almost no separation.
TW9 and Morph,
I really avoid to manuver sharply and to find myself below the defender. How can he do two break turns, pull up the nose and find the time to shoot (and sometimes ping?)
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I really avoid to manuver sharply and to find myself below the defender. How can he do two break turns, pull up the nose and find the time to shoot (and sometimes ping?)
All he has to do is time your arival infront of his guns and pull the trigger at the right time to get hits on you. Its not all that difficult to get kills on a con like this after you get the timing down.
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gatt: FILM YOUR FIGHTS. And you will find out how.
HiTech
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I am almost willing to bet he is getting barrel rolled.
Chaseing target in a nose down low g turn. Then barrel roll back to the opposite direction.
I can manage to get on attackers 6 but my gunnery isn't good enough yet to pop them as they over shoot.
Bronk
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Originally posted by gatt
Dedalos,
hmmmm, lag turns could be the answer .. who knows. However, what you describe happens even when during the merge there is almost no separation.
TW9 and Morph,
I really avoid to manuver sharply and to find myself below the defender. How can he do two break turns, pull up the nose and find the time to shoot (and sometimes ping?)
I can't fly 109s or 190s so this not something done to me, but something I do to them. The only way to avoid (the possiblity of) geting your tail shot off is to go into a spiral clime, but if the spit has enough speed, there is stil time for a quiqe shot.
The safest thing I have experienced (when I am not able to even think about taking a shot) is don't pull up. Go straight for a second or two, then go up or try the spiral. I was never able to get a shot at anyone doing that.
PS.
Don't listen to anything Levi has to say. He is not human. The only way to survive is to stay 6K away from him.
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Keep in mind that your taking your eyes off your target as soon as you realize you're not going to get the shot. The thing your missing is that he is turning back in line with your plane before you reach him, such that about the time you actually overshoot he's already lining up on you. You're faster then him, and his bullets are faster then you.
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It's an angles thing. If a defender dodges one direction and then reverses back into you, and you attempt to turn into him for a shot, then voila... you have just cut the number of degrees and the energy he used to get a shot on you in half. Thus it looks as if he should not have the energy for a firing solution, but essentially you've scrubbed off some of your own energy and kept him from scrubbing off all of his own, and you have also minimized the amount of turning required for a guns solution on you. In this scenario you are in serious trouble regardless of your speed.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Great replies! I understand how they do it but dont understand if it is realistic or not.
BTW, sometimes I think theres little room in AH (sure after 1.01) for the old B&Z, Hit&Run/Climb tactics. I still find weird how a/c can pull up their noses, climb and fire no matter how fast and skilled (in E-managing) is the attacker. I'm of the old school, I fly mainly 205 and G-10 and usually dont pull up my nose and manuver sharply, but I realized I can do it quite easily.
And yes, I miss the old FM where T&Bers were T&Bers and B&Zers were B&Zers :)
!
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Simple math: lets suppose he is slow, say 350 mph and you are very fast, say 450 mph. Lets suppose you don't maneuver much and keep your speed (which means you are not likely to line up your guns on him) . He, on the other hand is trying to time his maneuver to come out on your six as you pass. He can hit you up to 800 yds. At the differential speed of 100 mph it takes 800 yds/100 mph = 16 seconds for you to get out of range. 16 seconds is an eternity for him to get a shot off on you. Try counting out 16 seconds: do you really want to be in his sights that long?
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Originally posted by Bronk
I am almost willing to bet he is getting barrel rolled.
Chaseing target in a nose down low g turn. Then barrel roll back to the opposite direction.
I can manage to get on attackers 6 but my gunnery isn't good enough yet to pop them as they over shoot.
Bronk
I'd be willing to bet the same thing. and the reason the defender ends up on the attackers 6 is because the attacker has such an E advantage. And there are a number of moves a defender can make that puts the defender on the attackers 6 and within gunnery range.
When diving on a defender haveing an E advantage can be not an advantage at all but a liability.
Myself personally I prefer my opponent to start higher then me.
It often breeds overconfidence. Next thing you know. the hunter is the hunted
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Barrel Rolls force the overshoot. Most of them I have seen (against me and others) the Roller tries to line his Field of Fire up with the other plane's path.
Yes, he can get on his 6, but making that shot when the roller is going 200-250 and you're going 450 will be damn near impossible. Sort of like shooting a Torp at the carrier from Aft.
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Sounds like and offensive barrel roll. Who the hell is the master of that.
Damn cant think of his handle right now lev or morph should know. Won the 2v2 at the cons with eagl. Man you come in on his 6 you think your saddled up. He goes this way you go that way look back and guess what your dead.
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His name is Drex, and he sucks.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Anyone who is good at snapshots is good at the offensive barrel roll.
I, on the other hand, couldn't hit water if I fell out of a boat. So snapshots are out of the question.
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We might, but I'm fairly certain it's an AH1 film that won't run in AH2.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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The answer of Dedalos is the best.
I had last a good fight with a 190-D9 on a great pilot in a F6F - greebo.
He tried often the turn and climb maneuver when i came close to his six. Instead of climbing directly i run 2 till 3 seconds straight and than started my loop again.
He never came closer than 800 feet for a shot. After about 6 or seven loops i got a shot at his engine making it loosing oil.
A joining 109-g10 ended up the fight but i was sure i would have get him at least when his engine shut down.
However, runuing a short time forward and than start the spiral climb is the best way to avoid a sniper.
But keep track of ur e. Soft loop or spiral climb doesnt eat much e - if ur go for a sharp loop u waste ur e to much.
NghtFire:aok
- The best way to die fast is to start from a vulched base.
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Dont forget greebo...
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Ya Drex its fun to watch him own people over and over again. Guy bounces from high Drex noses over E state equals barrel roll boom then the whining starts love it.
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gatt I'm no expert but manage to do moderately well on occasion. The trick is to stay just out of the attackers gun solution without slowing down and maintaining (more or less) the same direction of travel as the attacker. You can do this by doing a loose, low-G barrel roll or by shallow S-turning - timing is important. If the attacker follows, tighten your maneuver enough to stay just outside of his guns. Essentially you're using the attacker's speed advantage against him.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
asw
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Most ppl dont scissors right anyhow and will give you a really nice canopy shot as they cross in front of you 90% of the time. The only reason to really go into one is for fun factor.
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I have similar problems.......basically my timing stinks, 3 dimensionally I am blind and I am a poor shot.
Seems to me that to scissors (flat or roll) to cause over shoot with immediate guns on requires all three.
I think you obviously have to lead the manouvre...........scissoring infront then rolling behind his nose anticipating his egress as he over shoots.
Continuing the roll to the vertical allows you to choose angle with out having to anticipate you opponents (you roll in the vertical to your opponents 6 with marginal e loss) but looses guns on time............
Some experten can roll directly to opponents 6 having chosen perfect angle seemingly "knowing" his egress angle in advance. I tend to think a least a little bit of luck is involved or some how the opponent "broadcast" his egress angle.
Basically the manouvres are evasives..........they are defensive....... they are best perfomed by low wing loaded ac agin high wing loaded ac. Even better if you have a low wingloaded ac with good roll rate.
They are also duel related ie 1 v 1. So you need to pull your opponent away from the pack and you need him to want to play......your game.