Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Galand on October 12, 2005, 11:10:51 AM
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I have been a fan of the Hellcat, but lately it doesn't seem to turn as well as it did. I'm sure it's just my perception because I can't believe the AH staff would ever change a plane without absolute full disclosure. Anyway, I'm sure it's my perception, like I said.
So having said that, it's not as much of a "wish" for me as it was, but I'd like to see an F6F-P with 2 20mm's replacing the innermost 50's. That would be a nice carrier plane.
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I can't say I've noticed any difference in the way the Hellcat flies. I'm sure HTC would put any FM change in the readme for that version.
A cannon armed Hellkitty would give me something to spend my perks on, but IIRC from last time this came up they were a rare aircraft in RL.
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It would
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Originally posted by Greebo
A cannon armed Hellkitty would give me something to spend my perks on, but IIRC from last time this came up they were a rare aircraft in RL.
And the 163, 262, 152 weren't rare. I would have to look it up again but I do remember reading that the 20mm cannon "option" was built into most later war production Hellcats. The mounting hardware for the inner guns would take the .50 BMG or the 20mm. It was just a matter of switching a few things around in the weapons bay to accomodate the gun and ammo. I would agree that it would need to be perked to a small amount. Something along the lines of the F4U-1C. Those were fairly rare also.
I would like to see it.
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When the Hellcats are re-done it would be nice to have. Perked like the c-hog.
Grumman F6F-5 with 4 50's and 2 20mm Hispano cannon.
(http://www.bismarck-class.dk/other_craft_involved/british_aircraft_involved/fighter_aircraft/pictures/grumman_f6f5_hellcat.jpg)
http://www.bismarck-class.dk/other_...f5_hellcat.html
Flown mostly by the RAF.
During 1944 deliveries began of a new Hellcat version, the F6F-5, with a number of detail refinements and improvements. The R-2800-IOW engine (with water injection) was retained, but the cowling was modified, and the windshield was also improved. Provision was made for 2,000 lb of bombs under the centre section and six rockets under the outer wings, and 20 mm cannon usually replaced the inner machine guns on this model. Production of this version totalled 6,436, plus 1,189 F6F-5Ns with APS-6 in the pod on the starboard wing. The Royal Navy received 252 F6F-3s and 930 F6F-5s which it operated as Hellcat I and Hellcat II respectively.
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Found this info on the 20mm issue of the Hellcat. The F6F-5N/P were all equipped with the 20mm gun package, and it says "many" not sure how many F6F-5's had it also. over 1500 F6F-5N's were manufactured, and there were 3 active squadrons flying it in the Pacific AOR during the war. If you look at the tech specs at the bottom of the page it shows that the 20mm .50cal mixed battery of guns was used.
Lets get this in the game.
Oh I also know that some people will say that AH2 does not have night time so why do we need a night fighter F6F-5N? I say it has the exact same performance as the F6F-5 and who says we can't fly a night fighter during the day?
Give me my 20mm cannons please. :aokhttp://vf8squad.8m.net/hellcatpilots/aircraft_files/Americain/Amer_navy/F6F/F6F-plate1.html (http://vf8squad.8m.net/hellcatpilots/aircraft_files/Americain/Amer_navy/F6F/F6F-plate1.html)
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I say this plane will NEVER have a place in AH. Ever. Damn, man, 2x50cals on a spitfire are pretty lethal. 4x50cals on an FM2 or P51B are more than lethal. 6x50cals is one of the most lethal setups in this game. And you want a relatively rare night fighter bomber interceptor variant that ONLY had cannon because it would only get 1 shot at bombers?
Pshaw... Then why don't we get the 4x20mm mustang? Why don't we get the 6x20mm 190A? I know *IT* saw more action and got more kills than a cannon armed F6F did.
Silly and frivolous request. "I want a super plane! Wheee!!!!".
We get enough posts like this already. Sorry if I've been blunt, but it had to be said.
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Krusty did you even look at the specs on this plane? It was not a relatively rare night fighter bomber interceptor. Over 1500 were produced and saw action. That is a relatively significant number. Also if you actually read the information it says "many" standard Hellcats were equipped this way. It flew in larger numbers than any of the super uber German planes did. Hell you already have a 190 with 2 20mm and 2 30mm cannons onboard but this is a ridiculous request? Give me a break. What about the Hurri IIc with 4 20mm cannons / Niki with 4 /F4U-1C with 4? We have these so why not the F6F-5N variant? Perk the thing sure, but it should be perked like the F4U-1C.
It HAS a place. It SAW combat.
READ THE FACTS.
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I wonder who will fly the 6x20mm 190 :)
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Originally posted by Hornet33
What about the Hurri IIc with 4 20mm cannons / Niki with 4 /F4U-1C with 4? We have these so why not the F6F-5N variant?
Facts are one thing. Crying for a super plane's another :)
"Ooh, ooh! The hurricane had 4x20mm, I think we should have that on 109s too! I think the la7 should have 4x hispanos!! The Tempest had them!!!"
Reason our F6F has 6x50cals is because BY FAR the vast VAST VAST majority of all f6fs had 6x50cal. The select MINORITY that had them saw limited use in a limited field (night fighting).
You state that the planes were built to take the guns. That doesn't mean they TOOK the guns. The US forces had a strong belief in the power of 50cals. Despite having the mounts for it, those wings that "could allow" 20mms mostly had 50cals in those spots.
F4u1C is a rare plane, it was to combat kamikaze planes, but happened to serve other roles because the people flying it at the time (just a single FG, I think?) were overworked, and had to do whatever they could whenever they could. That's not a direct comparison to a special radar equipped night fighting f6f. Hell even the radar equipped f4u's had all 50cals!
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Originally posted by straffo
I wonder who will fly the 6x20mm 190 :)
Considering it will probably make you roll like crap, and will probably slow you down 50mph, I wonder that myself :P
I'd try it out for bomber busting, but I think I'd be the only one.
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Boy you really don't want to see this plane do you. It's obvious you didn't read the information I found through research on this topic. 2 variants of the F6F, the N and P, were equipped with the 20mm. It wasn't an option, it was standard equipment with over 1500 being built and flown that way. The information also states that MANY standard F6F fighters were also equiped this way as an option.
Here is a cut and paste from the article:
Its armament, power, and range gave the Hellcat great versatility. The basic weaponry consisted of six wing-mounted .50 caliber machine guns, each with 400 rounds of ammunition. Many, including ALL F6F-5N and F6F-5P variants substituted a 20mm cannon with 200 rounds for the innermost machine gun in each wing. The Hellcat could carry a up two 1,000 pound bombs. Its most destructive weapons were six 5-inch HVAR's (High Velocity Aircraft Rockets), which the author Barrett Tillman described as "equal to a destroyer's broadside."
The F6F-5N was the definitive night-fighting version of the Hellcat, over 1500 of these built by Grumman.
This information was found through research, not wishfull thinking of "oh this would be cool, and other planes have it so I want it on this one."
I don't even fly the F6F all that much. This originator of this thread got me interested so I went and did a little homework and found this information. I personally think it would be a nice addition to the plane set. You obviously disagree which is fine by me, but your throwing a fit, yelling NO, NO, NO, not in my game, without even looking at the facts presented to you says much for your maturity level.
Besides this is the WISHLIST forum where we are ALLOWED to express our wishes for different things that we, as paying subscribers, would like to see. Thankfully you do NOT get to decide what is or is not put in the game as your name is NOT HiTech.
I've done my homework on this subject and I'm done. Have a nice day:aok
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Apparently 1400+ of those with 20mm were in the fleet air arm. Many of the aircraft late in the war were being shipped directly to ships in the SE Pacific (as opposed to going to UK then out to fleet), and at the end of the war many many hundreds still en route were dumped overboard as surplus. Considering the FAA had 50% more -5Ns than they had standard (about 900+ F6F-5), chances are a great number of those dumped were -5Ns.
I wonder how many, in fact, saw combat.
EDIT:
Oh, and checking the first page that comes up when you google "f6f 20mm" doesn't really help if it's an amateur website. A slightly more credible website might be :
http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/Aircraft/Hellcat.htm
it's a good read
/EDIT
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Originally posted by Hornet33
Found this info on the 20mm issue of the Hellcat. The F6F-5N/P were all equipped with the 20mm gun package, and it says "many" not sure how many F6F-5's had it also. over 1500 F6F-5N's were manufactured, and there were 3 active squadrons flying it in the Pacific AOR during the war. If you look at the tech specs at the bottom of the page it shows that the 20mm .50cal mixed battery of guns was used.
Lets get this in the game.
Oh I also know that some people will say that AH2 does not have night time so why do we need a night fighter F6F-5N? I say it has the exact same performance as the F6F-5 and who says we can't fly a night fighter during the day?
Give me my 20mm cannons please. :aokhttp://vf8squad.8m.net/hellcatpilots/aircraft_files/Americain/Amer_navy/F6F/F6F-plate1.html (http://vf8squad.8m.net/hellcatpilots/aircraft_files/Americain/Amer_navy/F6F/F6F-plate1.html)
You do realize that the F6F-5N purely a night fighter with onboard radar that did restrict its handling and lowered its top speed by 20MPH. While yes, some of the late model F6F-3s were modified to allow them to carry cannons and the F6F-5 had this modification designed in, it was rarely done outside of the night fighter variant.
(http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/aircraft/WWII/hellcat/helcat_info/image8.gif)
Notice the radar pod under the wing.
Just because the tech specs list it, doesn't mean it was used. I made the same error with the P-38D. All the tech specs listed the D model as having either the 37mm or 23mm cannon along with the 4x. .50 caliber brownings, in reality the D only carried 4x. .50s and no cannon as shown to me by Dan/CorkyJr.
Originally posted by Hornet33
Many, including ALL F6F-5N and F6F-5P variants substituted a 20mm cannon with 200 rounds for the innermost machine gun in each wing.
The F6F-5P was the recce version of the Hellcat and most of them were unarmed, the only exception being the fighter recce version which only carried 4.x .50 caliber Browning machine guns.
ack-ack
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Nice page on the Hellcats. Didn't see anywere on it where they said the were dumping hellcats over the side. Looked at the armormnet specs on your page and it tracks right along with the info I found. Yep they flew with 20mm. Thanks for confirming that my information was correct.
Six fixed forward firing 0.5in Browning wing guns with 400 rounds per gun (some F6F-5 and F6F-5N Hellcats had two 20 mm cannon plus four 0.5 inch machine-guns)
Underwing attachments for six rockets
Centre-section pylons for up to 2,000 lb of bombs
from the page you posted.
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http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/021408.jpg
Check that out before you say that. The fact it was a night fighter didn't mean it automatically had 20mms. The two planes in lead are -5Ns and they have 6x50cals. The 20mm have a longer barrel and are more distinguished, from the other photos I've seen.
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That link doesn't like being clicked. Just tried it now after the fact. I found the pic again and hosted it. New link:
http://www.nakatomitower.com/021408.jpg
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I've never seen a photo of a daytime F6F with the 20mm cannons fitted. Out of idle curiosity, does anyone have one?
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You sure those are 5N's? Could be 3N's as those did have the 6 .50 gun pack. Also looks to me that the photo showed a launch for a fighter sweep during daytime?????? With night fighters?????
There is a photo in a book I have of 4 5N's in formation over Leyte in December 1944 and they clearly have the 20mm cannons onboard. The book is The Great Book of World War Two Aircraft, printed by BONANZA pages 204-205. Says in here that the Navy had 8 night fighter squadrons and the Marines had 5 all equipped with the Hellcat. There were more squadrons out there but they had the F4U night fighter, and some were equipped with a modified TBM with radar and a big bellybutton spotlight as a sort of command and control aircraft.
Anyway the debate isn't what they had. The information I've found clearly says that the night fighter and photo recon Hellcats came equipped from the factory with 20mm. If they were removed in the field, OK, but the point is they did have them, and in fairly large numbers. Over 1500 aircraft I think amounts to a significant number of planes.
I think it would be a cool plane to have added to the plane set. It's not some super plane, lets face it allot of planes in the game will hand a Hellcat it's ass.
You seem like your trying to tell me that if they had them then they were removed from every fighter out there. I doubt thats the case, and regardless you will be hard pressed to find actual numbers anywhere. Production numbers of aircraft don't lie.
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This plane would be a definite combat tool in AH. One of the real issue we have in AH is Cv defense. The only cannon armed planes on the CV are the Seafire and the C-hog. While the seafire has canons it really only has those 2 canons. The peashooters are useless against bombers. In bomber defense it can hold it's own but not well due to the limited load-out. The C-hog is a fine aircraft but it is not a plane you can up in an emergency and gain alt for defending the CV. Hogs need alt to be effective and they climb like a sloth.
The canon equipped F6F could fill a key role in carrier defense. Granted 4x50s + 2x20mm is lethal but that's what you need to stop the bombers.
This plane would be perfect for CV bomber intercept.
Perk it like the C-Hog. I would even go along with making it only available on CVs.
I do not believe this plane would in any way seriously imbalance the MA. Especially if perked.
Lastly, if many F6Fs were designed with 20mm as an option, even though most US pilots chose not to use them, why can't we have this option as well? (I can guess, you don't want to face them while your trying to bomb that CV)
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Originally posted by Clifra Jones
Lastly, if many F6Fs were designed with 20mm as an option, even though most US pilots chose not to use them, why can't we have this option as well? (I can guess, you don't want to face them while your trying to bomb that CV)
Thank you!!! My point exactly!!!
Oh I put in a research request at the Smithsonian Air and Space Museum to check on this for me. I called and talked to a researcher there (nice guy, he volunters for stuff like this) and he informed me that they have the actual production records from the factories in their data base they can cross reffrance from. He told me it will probably take 3-4 weeks before my request gets processed but once I get the info I will post it.
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Add this and you may as well remove the F6F-5 with six .50 cals from AH.
That is why it has no place. You would replace the major combat aircraft of the USN with a low combat time version just to get an edge up while thumbing your nose at historical relevancy.
If you need cannons off of a CV take an F4U-1C, Seafire or A6M.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Add this and you may as well remove the F6F-5 with six .50 cals from AH.
That is why it has no place. You would replace the major combat aircraft of the USN with a low combat time version just to get an edge up while thumbing your nose at historical relevancy.
If you need cannons off of a CV take an F4U-1C, Seafire or A6M.
Now you make the erroneous assumption that everyone would up this plane. Did you not see where I said it should be perked? Why doesn't everyone fly a C-hog instead of the other variants? Because it's perked!
Once the bombers hit the radar circle or are called out in most cases you don't have enough time or air space to get a c-hog up to alt or speed to be effective. The Seafire is a fine plane but again the loadout is limited against a formation of b24s. A6m? Lets talk about limited loadout not to mention chitty canons and its a paper airplane (figuratively).
The F6F is tough, can climb and turn well. With the added firepower it would be a formative weapon against bombers.
I'd even say perk it a bit higher than the c-hog, that should keep it from being over used. While I did mention the 20mm as an option I don't think in reality that it should just be an option on the existing F6F. It should be another plane so it can be perked.
And I don't buy your historical numbers argument. Only 428 N1K2s were produced yet that is a significant plane in AH.
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/air_power/ap18a.htm
By your logic this plane should be severely limited in availability. To be "historically accurate".
Just so we are all clear, did you use these same arguments against the C-Hog?
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The F4U-1C was added before I subscribed. I subscribed with the v1.03 release.
And you remember what a nightmare the F4U-1C was before it was perked?
If they add the F6F-5N and perk it at the same time, fine, but I don't see it as a very useful addition. There are night fighters that played a much bigger part in the war.
The request looks to me like a simple "I want this special version with more firepower!!!!! WAHHHHH!"
We don't have a special, rare version of the N1K2-J. We simply have the N1K2-J. If somebody wanted to request that the version with the CV hook be added I'd argue against it.
What we need in F6Fs is the F6F-3 and a redone 3D model for it.
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It's just a better tool to protect carriers. If we could get some players to actually fly CAP over carriers then maybe I wouldn't be asking for it. Fact is that most don't.
I think the data shows that this plane is not as rare is you make it out to be. I'm not asking for the night version just a version equipped with canons.
If perked it would not unbalance the MA. It would give those few of us that do try and defend carriers, instead of just those who just leave and go fly somewhere safe, an effective weapon.
Thing is do you really think a formation of 3 b24s, flown at a US carrier group (equipped with proximity fuse shells) at 5000 ft would even make it to drop their bombs? Yet this happens every day on the MA. If b24s, b17s & Lancasters were attacking US carriers in WWII don't you think those F6F pilots would be mounting those canons? I certainly would.
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One other reason I would like to see this plane done is because it would be very easy to do. The Hellcat is already in the game. Easy to make a mod to the exsiting one and then perk it.
I would love to the P-61 also.
One last thing, just because it was designed as a night fighter didn't mean it wasn't flown during daylight operations. In all reality it was a day fighter modified to fly at night.
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The F6F-5N was a night fighter and that was its primary role. Yes, on some missions, the F6F-5N was used in the day time but those were rare occasions and not a common mission for the night fighters. It really has no place in AH since AH does not model night nor airbone mounted radar.
That picture you posted showing the F6F-5Ns taking off a carrier along with normal F6F-5s was most likely in the late afternoon. It was common to have a mix flight of F6F-5Ns and F6F-5s for night time CAP. The F6F-5Ns would lead a flight and would use their radar to guide the regular Hellcats to the target.
Also, since the radar was mounted on the wing of the F6F-5N, it hindered its performance. Its maneuverability was effected and the top speed lowered by over 20mph.
The F6F-5P was a recce version of the Hellcat and came in two versions, an unarmed version and a fighter-recce version that kept the 6x wing mounted .50 caliber Browning machine guns. It did not carry a 2x 20mm cannons.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Clifra Jones
Thing is do you really think a formation of 3 b24s, flown at a US carrier group (equipped with proximity fuse shells) at 5000 ft would even make it to drop their bombs? Yet this happens every day on the MA. If b24s, b17s & Lancasters were attacking US carriers in WWII don't you think those F6F pilots would be mounting those canons? I certainly would.
They didn't mount them when they were attacked by Japanese bombers or kamikazis.
ack-ack
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Sources man sources. Where are you getting your information? Or are you just assuming that is the case. It seems everyone opposed to this "option" for the plane is just tossing out their opinions, and expect everyone else to except it as fact. I am an avid military history buff. I enjoy doing research on things like this and the research I have conducted on this option of the Hellcat tells me that it was not all that uncommon to see these planes flying with 20mm cannons onboard. My research to this point also tells me that the N/P models were shipped from the factory with 20mm's. While I do agree that some of these aircraft probably had them removed and replaced with the .50, it in no way suggests that ALL of them were.
People complain on this board about how unrealistic some request on here are. I don't belive this one is due to the fact that HTC could do this plane very easily, and the number of aircraft produced, shows it was not that rare of an aircraft. This is realy no different than the La-7 with the 2 or 3 gun "option" or the Spit IX with the 4 .303 or 2 .50 "option" or any of the other planes that you can change the weapons mix. The Hellcat -5 models had this option built into them at the factory. I just don't see the aurgument that this was only used in the night fighters and we don't have night as a valid point. If that is the case get rid of the lancaster. The Brits only flew at night with their bombers. We don't have night so why do we need it? Oh but wait, they sometimes flew during the day so we need it.
Do some homework, a little research, have some facts. I keep hearing from you guys that, "They didn't fly them that way, so we don't need it." How do you know? Were you there in 1944? I wasn't so I did my homework to find out. The history books and Tech Specs I've found tells me they did fly them. I'll belive the documentation before I'll belive in opinions and assumptions.
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U.S. Naval Historical Archives (http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/hist-ac/f6f-5.pdf)
Try reading the Standard Aircraft Characteristics / F6F-5 "Hellcat" supplied by Grumman. Look at the line drawings. Their line drawings for the F6F-5 FIGHTER shows 2 20mm cannons with 450 rds. Read the Armorment Specs.
Our Hellcats aren't as capable as they should be. We can't carry a 2000lb bomb on the centerline like the real one could. 4000lb bomb load for the real one. Thats impressive.
Oh I'll save you guys the trouble here: They didn't fly them that way:cry
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your all talking about this plane being a night fighter predominantly, but look at other planes in the game who arent used for what they were in world war 2 the mosquito was used for bomber orriginally, and later in the war after radar advancements, and discovery of the german 110s nightfighting radar, the mossy was converted from an UNARMED bomber to a night fighter, yet in AH the mossy has the same use as the 110, it is used as an attack aircraft, even though the mossy is a bomber/night fighter. lets not talk about mixed up uses.
i myself have seen an f6f with what i believe were 20 mil cannons, at an airshow in memphis, TN. i say "believe" it had 20mm cannons, because i could not ask the person to whom it belonged, if thats what they were, they were extended barrels on the win, like all others. and it had no radar pod on it.
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The early Mosquitos were unarmed but later on were equipped with guns to make it a fighter/attack plane. It just happened to also make a fantastic night fighter but it kind of fell into that role. Mosquitos were used extensively in the attack role, some of the greatest raids were carried out by Mosquitos. The role they play in AH is pretty much the role they played in WW2.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Hornet33
U.S. Naval Historical Archives (http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/hist-ac/f6f-5.pdf)
Try reading the Standard Aircraft Characteristics / F6F-5 "Hellcat" supplied by Grumman. Look at the line drawings. Their line drawings for the F6F-5 FIGHTER shows 2 20mm cannons with 450 rds. Read the Armorment Specs.
Our Hellcats aren't as capable as they should be. We can't carry a 2000lb bomb on the centerline like the real one could. 4000lb bomb load for the real one. Thats impressive.
Oh I'll save you guys the trouble here: They didn't fly them that way:cry
You tell us to do some research but one could say the same to you.
You have not shown that any other plane than the F6F-5N carried 20mm cannons. You failed to show any documents or photos that show the F6F-5P outfitted with the twin 20mm cannons. All that you've shown is design specs but as I stated earlier, just because the design specs list that the plane could be outfitted with 20mm cannons doesn't mean they were outfitted with that equipment.
Again, let us use the P-38D as an example of this. All design specs list the P-38D with either a 37mm Oldsmobile cannon or a 23mm cannon. But in reality the P-38D never carried either one. Not one operational P-38D was outfitted with either the 37mm or 23mm cannon. So, just because the design specs list it, doesn't mean the plane had it in reality. You need more proof than the design specs. Better evidence would be to show photos of any other Hellcat other than the N model carrying the 20mm weapons package.
Yes, it is true that late model F6F-3s and all F6F-5s were built to be able to carry 20mm cannons, other than the Hellcats that served as night fighters, all were produced with 6x. .50 caliber Browning machine guns. The F6F-5P was a photo-recce aircraft and only had 6x .50 caliber machine guns. There is no evidence that shows the F6F-5P carried anything other than cameras and .50 cals.
Only 3 squadrons were equipped with the F6F-5N, VFN-76, VFN-77, and VFN-78 (some list these squadrons having a mix of F6F-3Ns and F6F-5Ns). Due to the nature of the night fighter mission, it was difficult to operate them from carriers since they needed round the clock duty by launch and recovery crews.
Now I do concede that in some aspects, the ordnance load out is incorrect. The F6F-5 was capable of firing the "Tiny Tim" rocket pod (http://www.chinalakealumni.org/1944.htm) and it should have that option in the game. Just as the P-38 was able to carry 4,000 pounds worth of bombs (which it commonly did in the PTO), the ordnance loadout for the F6F-5 should also reflect the ordnance loadouts it used in the war.
ack-ack
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you guys know, ive heard from a reliable source that for some reason or another the dehaviland mosquito was close to if not totally invisible to ww2 radar. (little off subject)
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
You tell us to do some research but one could say the same to you.
You have not shown that any other plane than the F6F-5N carried 20mm cannons. You failed to show any documents or photos that show the F6F-5P outfitted with the twin 20mm cannons. All that you've shown is design specs but as I stated earlier, just because the design specs list that the plane could be outfitted with 20mm cannons doesn't mean they were outfitted with that equipment.
Again, let us use the P-38D as an example of this. All design specs list the P-38D with either a 37mm Oldsmobile cannon or a 23mm cannon. But in reality the P-38D never carried either one. Not one operational P-38D was outfitted with either the 37mm or 23mm cannon. So, just because the design specs list it, doesn't mean the plane had it in reality. You need more proof than the design specs. Better evidence would be to show photos of any other Hellcat other than the N model carrying the 20mm weapons package.
Yes, it is true that late model F6F-3s and all F6F-5s were built to be able to carry 20mm cannons, other than the Hellcats that served as night fighters, all were produced with 6x. .50 caliber Browning machine guns. The F6F-5P was a photo-recce aircraft and only had 6x .50 caliber machine guns. There is no evidence that shows the F6F-5P carried anything other than cameras and .50 cals.
Only 3 squadrons were equipped with the F6F-5N, VFN-76, VFN-77, and VFN-78 (some list these squadrons having a mix of F6F-3Ns and F6F-5Ns). Due to the nature of the night fighter mission, it was difficult to operate them from carriers since they needed round the clock duty by launch and recovery crews.
Now I do concede that in some aspects, the ordnance load out is incorrect. The F6F-5 was capable of firing the "Tiny Tim" rocket pod (http://www.chinalakealumni.org/1944.htm) and it should have that option in the game. Just as the P-38 was able to carry 4,000 pounds worth of bombs (which it commonly did in the PTO), the ordnance loadout for the F6F-5 should also reflect the ordnance loadouts it used in the war.
ack-ack
OK here is the first pic and you'll notice that the right wing does NOT have a radome. This plane just rolled off the factory floor and doesn't even have it's final paint job yet. Looks like it's been test flown though due to the oil streaks from the exhaust.
F6F with 20mm (http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/f6f/f6f-5.jpg)
Here is a nice pic of a 20mm equiped 5N
20mm equiped F6F-5N (http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/f6f/f6f-11.jpg)
Happy???
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It wasn't totally invisible to radar but it did have a lower radar signature than most planes. The reason is the all wood construction of the Mosquito made it reflect less radar signals, an early example of using radar absorbing materials. Of course, I hardly think though that was reason why the Mosquito went to an all wood exterior, just an unknown (at the time of design) benefit.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Hornet33
OK here is the first pic and you'll notice that the right wing does NOT have a radome. This plane just rolled off the factory floor and doesn't even have it's final paint job yet. Looks like it's been test flown though due to the oil streaks from the exhaust.
F6F with 20mm (http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/f6f/f6f-5.jpg)
Here is a nice pic of a 20mm equiped 5N
20mm equiped F6F-5N (http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/f6f/f6f-11.jpg)
Happy???
The first picture is more likely a F6F-5E that just got upgraded to the 20mm gun package. A lot of the F6F-5Es were upgraded to the 20mm gun package but kept the old APS-3 radar systems and then were redesignated as N's.
Here are pictures of the two different ones. The top photo is the F6F-5N with the APS-6 radar system.
(http://www.afwing.com/images/f6f/f6f-5n.jpg)
And this is the APS-3 radar system, this one on a F6F-5E but also used on those F6F-5Ns that were upgraded from the F6F-5E.
(http://www.afwing.com/images/f6f/f6f-5e.jpg)
It is not a picture of a F6F-5P since there are no visible camera ports. Although you can't see them in this picture, this is a F6F-5P.
(http://www.afwing.com/images/f6f/f6f-5p.jpg)
Notice no 20mm?
ack-ack
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You know what, I could pick your pics apart as easily as you pick mine apart. You wanted pics of a F6F that wasn't a night fighter with 20mm's installed. I gave you one. So you say it must be a night fighter with a different radar. Tell you what, you prove it isn't an F6F-5.
Simple fact of the matter is you don't get to decide what goes in the game, any more than I do. The FACT that the Grumman Aircraft Corp tech specs CLEARLY say that the F6F's were equipped with 20mm cannons with a *note* thats says "some" F6F's were equipped with 6 .50cal's is lost on you. Those documents were pulled from the US Navy's historical archives.
The fact that people can be so narrow minded is beyond me. I didn't know that the F6F was equipped with 20mm untill a few days ago. The guy that started this thread perked my curiosity so I looked into it. Well guess what, I was wrong when I thought that they were only equipped with the .50's. It's obvious that Grumman manufactured a bunch of these things with 20mm's. Actual numbers?? Don't know but I'm trying to find out.
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dude, ack-ack that f6f-p clearly has cannons maybe if you werent in such a blind rage you could see them; here ill highlight them with paint so you can see them.
heres a link to hte thing
f6f-p with highlighted cannons (http://www.picturehosting.com/images/toadkill/f6f5p.jpg)
i really hope you didnt just pick that picture because the sun glare made it where at 1st glance you couldnt see 20mm guns. and btw i didnt add the guns, just made circle and arrow, yes, you can check the orriginal they are there. you just have to examine it scientifically.
|back off subject|i believe the mosquito was made of wood because it was more abundant than metal in britain.
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Originally posted by Hornet33
You know what, I could pick your pics apart as easily as you pick mine apart. You wanted pics of a F6F that wasn't a night fighter with 20mm's installed. I gave you one. So you say it must be a night fighter with a different radar. Tell you what, you prove it isn't an F6F-5.
That picture doesn't change the facts. The only Hellcats to have carried the 20mm cannons were the F6F-5N and the F6F-5Es that were later upgraded to carry the 20mm cannons and redesignated F6F-5Ns.
The F6F-5P was a photo recce plane and in the USN, it retained the 6 .50 caliber machine guns. The Royal Navy had two versions of the F6F-5P, one an unarmed version and a fighter/recce version, like the US counter-part, retained the 6 .50 caliber machine guns. That picture you showed of the F6F-5 with the 20mm was not a P, no visible camera ports.
Simple fact of the matter is you don't get to decide what goes in the game, any more than I do. The FACT that the Grumman Aircraft Corp tech specs CLEARLY say that the F6F's were equipped with 20mm cannons with a *note* thats says "some" F6F's were equipped with 6 .50cal's is lost on you. Those documents were pulled from the US Navy's historical archives.
Just like how you're stating why this plane should get this option, I am merely providing a counter point as to why it should not be added.
The vast majority, with the exception of the night squadrons, all were equipped with the 6 .50 caliber machine guns. Again, like the example I already used previously, the design specs don't always reflect what was used in real life.
The fact that people can be so narrow minded is beyond me. I didn't know that the F6F was equipped with 20mm untill a few days ago. The guy that started this thread perked my curiosity so I looked into it. Well guess what, I was wrong when I thought that they were only equipped with the .50's. It's obvious that Grumman manufactured a bunch of these things with 20mm's. Actual numbers?? Don't know but I'm trying to find out.
1,432 F6F-5Ns were built and of those, some also went to the Royal Navy.
The reason why the night fighters were equipped with the 20mm and the regular front line Hellcats weren't was because of the philosophy of the time. Night engagements were not at all like regular day time air combat. The airborne radars were still rather primitive and while it could locate the target and provide a bearing, once a pilot got within a certain range of the target the radar was useless. The pilot and the radar operator had to then visually locate the target in order to engage. This resulted in very brief engagements, usually just a single pass. So you needed to hit hard and with a cannon equipped night fighter, you had more likely of a chance to score a kill on the first pass, especially against the thinner armored Japanese planes.
ack-ack
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Toad,
Enclosed with this message are the two tools required for arguing with anyone on this forum.. a 2X4 and a brick.
Use the 2X4 to bang them on the head to get their attention.. THEN make your argument.
After they shoot it down with pointless tyrades or bad drawings bang your head against the brick for 30 minutes.. you will find this technique less painful then arguing with the plebians.
Jg44 leads the way.
-SgtDeaux
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Originally posted by toadkill
dude, ack-ack that f6f-p clearly has cannons maybe if you werent in such a blind rage you could see them; here ill highlight them with paint so you can see them.
heres a link to hte thing
f6f-p with highlighted cannons (http://www.picturehosting.com/images/toadkill/f6f5p.jpg)
i really hope you didnt just pick that picture because the sun glare made it where at 1st glance you couldnt see 20mm guns. and btw i didnt add the guns, just made circle and arrow, yes, you can check the orriginal they are there. you just have to examine it scientifically.
That's not a 20mm cannon, that is the inner most .50 cal.
(http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/NARG/images/hellcat7.jpg)
(http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/NARG/images/hellcat3.jpg)
(http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/NARG/images/hellcat4.jpg)
(http://www.compsoc.man.ac.uk/~wingman/pics/F6F-3_3.jpg)
(http://www.usscoralsea.net/images/48f6vf5b.jpg)
(http://www.kotfsc.com/aviation/graphics/f6f-plate1.jpg)
The 2nd to last image is a F6F-5P.
One thing that cannot be argued is the fact the Hellcat could take as much damage as it was able to dish out. 200+ hits were counted on this Hellcat.
(http://www.flightjournal.com/fj/images/plane_profiles/hellcat/shot_up.jpg)
ack-ack
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Toadkill,
Now you've stepped in it. :p You mentioned Mossies and tried to relate the fighter Mossies to the BF110's night-fighter role. Way, way wrong.
The Mossie was designed from the start to take four 20mm cannon under the cockpit because de Haviland knew that it would make a very good fighter even if the RAF didn't. Furthermore, the first fighter Mossies entered service before the first bomber Mossies. After seeing the prototype easily out run a Spitfire Mk V the RAF wanted recon, fighter and bomber versions ASAP. The Mosquito F.Mk II was not a radar equiped night fighter, though it did see use as a night fighter.
The Mossie we have is the Mosquito FB.Mk VI. FB is for Fighter-Bomber and it was not radar equipped (in most cases), yet was the most produced Mossie and saw heavy use in all Mossie roles other than altitude bomber or photo recon.
The radar equipped Mossie nightfighters were built in response to the continued German night raids on British cities, not as a night time escort for the British bombers. In what I consider to be one of the biggest blunders of the war, the RAF didn't clear the Mossie radar equipped night fighters to operate over German held territory until 1944, by which time Bomber Command had paid a fearsome toll in blood. Once the NF.Mk XIIIs, NF.Mk XIXs and NF.Mk XXXs were hunting German night fighters in late 1944 the Bomber Command losses plumeted as the German nightfighter groups suddenly found themselves the hunted.
The Mosquito NF.Mk XXX was undoubtedly the finest nightfighter of WWII.
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karnaak, i welcome your info, because it is only that info, and i take it into account (ill learn from it). & i thank you for not just being a total !@# like ack-ack. he just wont learn from anything. reminds me of the "typical american" (no offence to anyone) who is "right" no matter what. sorry ack, but i have a large hatred for people who are closed minded.
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In referance to the 20mm equipped hellcat without radome pic. You keep harping on the "fact" that it must be a night fighter because it doesn't have camera ports so it can't be a 5P. I NEVER CLAIMED IT WAS A 5P. You keep going on about the 5P. Who cares. Some were armed, some weren't. I'm talking about the ENTIRE FLEET (over 12,000) of fighters here. ALMOST ALL F6F-5(series) fighters were able to take those cannons. That pic is a F6F-5 Hellcat FIGHTER with 20mm's installed at the FACTORY. I'm past the whole N/P had the cannons because my research indicates that regular hellcat fighters had the things also.
You say that no/none/00000 F6F fighters flew in combat with that gun option.
I say that Grumman designed the planes to do so, and manufactured many of them with this option, because that is what the documentaion says.
Show me credible evidince from a reliable source that backs up your claims and I'll belive you. So far you have provided nothing other than your personal opinons and asumptions. Don't show me pics, show me RECORDS of historical value. I know that 99.9% of the pics on the web show 6 .50 cals on the planes but with over 12,000 planes being built and only a couple HUNDRED pics to look at, and allot of those pics are of the SAME airframe. You can't really use that as evidence can you???
I'm going to sit on this for awhile now because I do have a research request into the Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum on this topic. I'll wait and see what they send me. Of course if the information is not to your liking you'll probably aurgue that their information is wrong too.
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1) Toad, seems to me you might be calling the kettle black, Mr. Pot.
2) Hornet, the fact that it's sitting at the factory actually makes it LOSE credibility. Many of the 4x20mm cannon armed SpitVs were flown out as 4x20mm spitVs, then the instant they got to the field were stripped of the outboard guns (put to use wherever they were needed) and flown as 2x20mm birds.
Many P47s flew out to units as 8x50cal birds, and were changed to 6x50cal birds. PE-2s had a very small mushroom shaped window on each side of the radio room, with an ShVak sticking out each side. These were promptly removed in the field.
Considering that most of the photographic evidence showing planes IN SERVICE shows 6x50cals, I'm of the mind that some of these 20mm planes were stripped of their cannon the instant they got to units. Pilots were confident in their "fiddy cals". They could kill with them and HAD been killing with them for years. They knew how to shoot and when to shoot, and changing all that with a cannon I bet most pilots said "Why change a good thing -- if it ain't broke don't fix it".
P.S. The freakin' title of this thread says F6F-P
I'm done with this thread. It's nothing but "whining for a super gun on my favorite bestest plane evar!!!"
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Originally posted by toadkill
karnaak, i welcome your info, because it is only that info, and i take it into account (ill learn from it). & i thank you for not just being a total !@# like ack-ack. he just wont learn from anything. reminds me of the "typical american" (no offence to anyone) who is "right" no matter what. sorry ack, but i have a large hatred for people who are closed minded.
No offense but the only closed minds are yours and hornets. I also apologize if I offended you in some way in correcting your error about the F6F-5P picture. I guess not everyone can tell the difference between a .50 caliber machine gun and a 20mm cannon.
There is line from an old classic song, "Free your mind and your bellybutton will soon follow". Wise words...
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Hornet33
In referance to the 20mm equipped hellcat without radome pic. You keep harping on the "fact" that it must be a night fighter because it doesn't have camera ports so it can't be a 5P. I NEVER CLAIMED IT WAS A 5P. You keep going on about the 5P. Who cares. Some were armed, some weren't. I'm talking about the ENTIRE FLEET (over 12,000) of fighters here. ALMOST ALL F6F-5(series) fighters were able to take those cannons. That pic is a F6F-5 Hellcat FIGHTER with 20mm's installed at the FACTORY. I'm past the whole N/P had the cannons because my research indicates that regular hellcat fighters had the things also.
You say that no/none/00000 F6F fighters flew in combat with that gun option.
I say that Grumman designed the planes to do so, and manufactured many of them with this option, because that is what the documentaion says.
Show me credible evidince from a reliable source that backs up your claims and I'll belive you. So far you have provided nothing other than your personal opinons and asumptions. Don't show me pics, show me RECORDS of historical value. I know that 99.9% of the pics on the web show 6 .50 cals on the planes but with over 12,000 planes being built and only a couple HUNDRED pics to look at, and allot of those pics are of the SAME airframe. You can't really use that as evidence can you???
I'm going to sit on this for awhile now because I do have a research request into the Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum on this topic. I'll wait and see what they send me. Of course if the information is not to your liking you'll probably aurgue that their information is wrong too.
The simple fact is that you failed to show any proof whatsoever that the twin 20mm cannon package was outfitted to any other Hellcat other than the N series and those E series that were upgraded to the N series.
ack-ack
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We'll wait and see what the Smithsonian sends me about this subject. You may be right. Then again you may wrong. We'll just have to wait and see.
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"Though most new -5Ns arrived with with two 20mms and 4 .50s, the former were invaribly removed because their flash suppressors unaccountably failed to arrive with them."(Tillman Hellcat the f6f in WWII pg.191)
Well I would love to see 20mms on my Hellcat but I think it was just not that common. I would rather have the rader on the -5N than the 20mms anyways. Also It would be nice if they fixed the loadout options, should beable to carry a bomb in the center possition.
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I do agree that the ordnance packages for the F6F-5 in incorrect and should be able not only to carry a bomb in the centerline but also should have the option of being able to carry the "Tiny Tim" rocket pod.
ack-ack
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The F6F-3 needs to be added, before any night fighter variant. The -3 climbed better than the -5 and pilots prefered it in the vertical to the -5. The -3 was a increadably common varient much more so that the -5P.
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I like the F6F and use it often as my primary attack plane so anything that would make it better in the game.....I'm all for it.