Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: discod on September 24, 2001, 11:48:00 AM
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I have been looking at the AP photos daily and I am seeing a striking trend. What's the deal, 6000 american form dozens of nationalities are dead, you'd think we would be the ones in the streets burning flags and Carring pictures of the earth with a hole in it where Afghanistan once was, but that's not what I'm seeing.
What's the deal???
USA
(http://www.davehales.com/usa.jpg)
(http://www.davehales.com/usa2.jpg)
(http://www.davehales.com/usa3.jpg)
PAKISTAN
(http://www.davehales.com/pakistan.jpg)
(http://www.davehales.com/pakistan2.jpg)
(http://www.davehales.com/pakistan3.jpg)
INDONISIA
(http://www.davehales.com/Indonisia.jpg)
[ 09-24-2001: Message edited by: discod ]
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You notice it done over in thier own country. I will still defend the flag to this day burn it and you burn with it.
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Walking sandbags.
xBAT
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Keep in mind alot of the stuff you'll see is staged propaganda. It's to make us hide under our beds. Take it all with a grain of salt.
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because we are civilized and they are stinking, sand eating, murdering animals ...
I sure hope that is politically correct, I'd hate to upset anyone sympathetic to their cause...
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Go on Eagler, say the words. You know you want to...
'Ragheads' vs 'Civilisation'?
Treat any demonstration with a healthy dose of salt. Most are staged by either the reigning government (take the demonstrations in Iraq, for example) or by militant opposition groups (take the demonstrations in Pakistan, for example).
[ 09-24-2001: Message edited by: Dowding ]
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I am growing impatient like a lot of other people. I have to remind myself that a big show means body bags. Let them take there time and do it right. Same result, fewer American casualties.
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Guys, remember that "the People of Islam" are not the enemy. It bothers me when people do not differentiate between normal believers and terrorists.
Maybe you meant "terrorists" when you said "Crazed people of Islam." I don't know. I do know that we can't afford the confusion between the two. Bin Laden would love to see a backlash in America against the people of Islam. Be careful about this. There are thousands of gentle Islamic people here and abroad who are horrified by terrorism. My Islamic doctor has had bomb threats already called into his office! Please think about what you are saying before you say it out loud or put it in writing.
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I do not want to kill anyone and I do not want anyone to kill me.
If it means leaving the middle east and removing our influence then lets do it. Also, give no financial aid or any other aid for that matter, to any nation that openly hates america or subverts western culture.
We should look away and never again act when any population becomes victimized by its own governing structure (ie somalia, afganistan).
Too damned bad. They can fight their own wars or live in self imposed slavery.
Im tired of americans dying for what we belive in on behalf of people who are not american and obviously dont want our help to begin with.
Leave those people alone to their own devices and immediately begin exploring other methods of energy to deny them their hold on our economic needs.
As far as Isreal is concerned they are quite capable of taking care of themselves.
Only problem here is what do we do if half the world becomes openly militant towards the other half? maybe its better to fight a dozen smaller wars than one great big huge fireball.
Maybe its all unavoidable anyway. Peace is no longer something we should consider as being a naturally occuring event n our way of life.
I dont know.
Y
[ 09-24-2001: Message edited by: Yeager ]
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Even if state sponsored, there's a marked difference in the gatherings. There certainly have not been thousands in the US gathering to support a war against the evil people.
Anyways, if you want to believe bin Laden, it is a war against us Christian and Jewish cross-hugging freaks. Fortunately we're at war with terrorism and not Muslims.
The fax:
To our Muslim brothers in Pakistan, peace be upon you.
"The news of the death of our brother Muslims in Karachi while expressing their opposition to the crusade of American forces and their allies on Muslim lands Pakistan and Afghanistan has reached us with great sorrow.
"We ask God to accept them as martyrs and to join them with the prophets, the caliphs and the martyrs and those of goodwill and to provide for their families. Those who are left behind children are my children and I will, God willing, take care of them.
"It's not a surprise that the Muslim nation in Pakistan will die defending Islam. It is considered on the front line of defending Islam. As Afghanistan was on the front line of defending itself and Pakistan during the Russian invasion more than 20 years ago.
"We hope that these brothers will be the first martyrs in the battle of Islam in this era against the new Jewish and Christian crusader campaign that is led by the Chief Crusader Bush under the banner of the cross.
"We tell our Muslim brothers in Pakistan to use all their means to resist the invasion of the American crusader forces in Pakistan and Afghanistan.
"I convey to you good news my beloved brothers that we are steadfast in the way of jihad following in the footsteps of the prophet -- peace be upon him -- with the believing heroes, the people of Afghanistan and under the leadership of our prince the warrior Mullah Mohammed Omar.
"We ask God to make us defeat the infidels and the oppressors and to crush the new Jewish-Christian crusader campaign on the land of Pakistan and Afghanistan.
"If God allows you to win, there will be no defeat; if he chooses that you will be defeated nothing will allow you to win. Therefore, depend on God.
"Your brother in Islam, (signed) Osama bin Muhammed bin-Laden"
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"If it means leaving the middle east and removing our influence then lets do it. Also, give no financial aid or any other aid for that matter, to any nation that openly hates america or subverts western culture.
We should look away and never again act when any population becomes victimized by its own governing structure (ie somalia, afganistan).
Too damned bad. They can fight their own wars or live in self imposed slavery.
Im tired of americans dying for what we belive in on behalf of people who are not american and obviously dont want our help to begin with."
My reaction the first, time I was shot at, may have been typical for a greenie. I had a moment of true panic. Im ashamed to admit that the thought of running did occur to me. As I looked around for a place to run to I remembered where I was. The area behind me was just a dangerous as that in front of me. I realized that the right thing to do was stick with my people and do my job.
As long as we are one of the "haves" in a world full of "have not's",we will never be safe. It is in our own self interest to help people of other nations (if they ask for it) to find there way to a free and democratic form of government. The simple act of letting a man receive the reward for his own efforts is very powerful. In time they will enjoy the same fruits of freedom that we take for granted. And would have no reason to attack us
Pulling back and turning ourselves into "fortress America" would be very foolish in the long run.
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Originally posted by Gunthr:
It bothers me when people do not differentiate between normal believers and terrorists.
Maybe you meant "terrorists" when you said "Crazed people of Islam." I don't know.
Actually what I meant was that the pictures that the AP are posting are making Americans think that eveyone in Islamic nations are flag burning anti-US gun waving maniacs.
I realize that in reality these demonstrations may only represent the sentimates of a handful of people in these countries, but the way the press is covering it, it appears much differently.
I also see the great power that the propaganda demostrations can have on a potential war, it makes Americans think everyone in those countries would kill and American on sight and then burn his dead body at the stake.
Maybe we should try some reverse propoganda like:
"In India today 1,000 people gathered in support of destroying America. In a country of 900,000,000 people we can take that to mean that they don't really give a crap about BinLaden either"
Or
"Today in Pakistan 500 students gathered to protest america, burning flags and waving guns. Also today in New York City, 10,000 Muslims gathered in conjunction with over 200,000 Muslims nationwide in a memorial tribute to those lost in the terrorist attacks"
[ 09-24-2001: Message edited by: discod ]
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[ 09-24-2001: Message edited by: Skuzzy ]
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To bad your kid is hanging around dictators (Pakistan) and terrorists (Northern Alliance) again. You think he would learn.
[ 09-24-2001: Message edited by: Thrawn ]
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Thanks Thrawn,...your support is appreciated.
Truly so easy to find a negative in anything anyone would say.
This little diatribe I wrote is something my wife and I are working on for an annual pilgrimage to New York, on 9/11 of each year.
Tradition is big in our family, as we firmly beleive without tradition we may forget some of the things we should never forget.
Thought I would share with the community what we had come up with so far to say once we gotten to New York.
Seems we are off the mark, according to your review. Thanks for the input.
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Guys like thrawn, and hotseat, over at ien, are a good reminder to us. If you are looking for a helping hand, look at the end of your own arm.
I am prepard to use anybody, climb into bed with ANY country, What ever it takes to kill these goat herders.
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Guess you are right easymo. I will just delete it. Thought it fit nicely with whats happened. Guess not.
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Hey Skuzzy. diddly him. Leave it up.
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Nah easymo. I should not foist my opinions on anyone. We have enough problems without me trying to stir up some patriotism.
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LOL Ya, diddly me. Cripes, do you guys want to go through this toejam again, in another 10 years?
[ 09-24-2001: Message edited by: Thrawn ]
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Skuzzy,
For what it's worth I think you should repost it. It was a good read and extremely relevent.
Thrawn,
No we don't want this again in 10 yrs or in 5 yrs or in 6 months. That's why we're going to stop it now. These people (terrorist) are evil and don't rate high enough for oxygen intake, so we're going to take that away from them.
U
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Originally posted by Udie:
These people (terrorist) are evil and don't rate high enough for oxygen intake, so we're going to take that away from them.
U
I agree 110%. Just don't want anyone to get into a situation where they're training and arming new ones.
[ 09-24-2001: Message edited by: Thrawn ]
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Rgr Discod... I see what you mean.
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LOL Ya, diddly me. Cripes, do you guys want to go through this toejam again, in another 10 years?
Pay close attention to the "you guys" part of this tripe. There will be more of this comming as time passes. It is easy to philosophize when its not your ox that is getting gored. All we really need from them is to not get in the way.
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Originally posted by easymo:
Pay close attention to the "you guys" part of this tripe. There will be more of this comming as time passes. It is easy to philosophize when its not your ox that is getting gored. All we really need from them is to not get in the way.
If they get to much in the way, just tag em and bag em, with their "friends"
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Careful... a lot of that footage (for example, party footage from Palestine) is considerably older than you may think. It's just been rebroadcast by those CNN idiots. Not to say that there aren't people doing these things, but apparently at least some of that footage is ten years old, and recycled. Be careful.
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Originally posted by easymo:
It is easy to philosophize when its not your ox that is getting gored. All we really need from them is to not get in the way.
I fear this isn't really the case. My country men and women died in the same incident your's did. My country men and women are going to continue dying beside your's during this war. I think this gives me a right to engage in a dialog about how to prevent a similar incident. After all the US gov't seems to feel it has a right to try and dictate what the laws of Canada should be. (Search for info on the North American Defense Perimeter)
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Ispar - yer refering to a rumour started by a college student in Brazil and subsequently denied by him and the school's faculty when that rumour became out of control. The video you're refering to was shot on the day of the attack.
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In spite of what a couple of Canadians think, this whining about who we gave arms too. And who we aligned ourselves with in the past. Is childish and dangerous.
Even a cursory review of 20th century history shows allies becoming enemies, enemies becoming allies, in a seemingly, constant rotation. If we wait until we have a perfect alignment of allies, before we defend ourselves. We will be ancient dust before it happens.
Right now, doubt is as dangerous to us as bombs. We can indulge in introspection when this is over. We can rend our clothes. beat our breasts. And berate ourselves until our hearts content. We can finger point, until our fingers wear out. But right now we have to be a bullet with no concern for anything but finding the target.
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Originally posted by easymo:
In spite of what a couple of Canadians think,
Nash was the only other Canadian, as far as I know, to post in this tread. He neither stated that agreed or disagreed with my statements.
Even a cursory review of 20th century history shows allies becoming enemies, enemies becoming allies, in a seemingly, constant rotation.
And seemingly in a constant rotation they turn and bite you in the ass.
If we wait until we have a perfect alignment of allies, before we defend ourselves. We will be ancient dust before it happens.
I never said you should wait for the perfect allignment of allies. I said, "To bad your kid is hanging around dictators (Pakistan) and terrorists (Northern Alliance) again. You think he would learn."
You seem to think it's a good idea. Even a cursory review of 20th century history shows that it has not been very successful in the long run.
Right now, doubt is as dangerous to us as bombs. We can indulge in introspection when this is over. We can rend our clothes. beat our breasts. And berate ourselves until our hearts content.
Skeptism of a goverment's actions, and questioning them, is part of a healthy democracy at anytime. And I sincerly hope that the Northern Alliance doesn't decide to launch a 'jihad' agains the US, while you rend your clothes and beat your breast.
But right now we have to be a bullet with no concern for anything but finding the target.
Action without thought, doesn't sound like a very successful strategy.
[ 09-25-2001: Message edited by: Thrawn ]
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I'm with Thrawn.
All potential allies and potential recipients of aid must be thoroughly examined by Miss Cleo to determing their true intentions now and 20 years into the future.
If our best telephone psychic clears them.. well OK then.
:rolleyes:
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Thank Udie, and easymo. Toad, you will find sarcasm towards Thrawn lost, but good job.
Udie, I am glad a few got to read it and I am glad you liked it. I am just a bit put off when someone takes something my wife and I put our hearts into and turns it into some other agenda far from the perspective it was posted from.
I do not know what Thrawn has done since the tragedy, but I know what my family has done. My wife stood in line to give blood the night of the tragedy until 2:30am. My son is in the Air Force, and I have been busy drumming up donations for the City of New York.
I released some anger, in the thread thanking Japan for its donation, towards some members of this community. I was wrong for that.
I do not work for HTC, yet I know I am looked upon as a representative of HTC, so I need to curtail my expression on the BB of my thoughts and views.
I do not wish to feed others agendas, which only serve to distract us from what we need to be focused on.
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Negative, Skuzzy.
You are entitled to speak you piece on this board as much (or more so) than anyone else.
We all know you aren't an employee of HTC.
We also know without your support of the very idea of the game, without your expertise in your field and without your willingness to help anyone and everyone get the best connection possible... it wouldn't be as great an experience and game as it has become.
Speak your piece, Skuzzy. It's your right.
And your duty.
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LOL toad. I called her. She said even Cain got along with his brother for awile before he killed him. Been that way ever since. She said to get use to it.
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I post my oppions on this topic out of concern. My wife and I have friends that are American and we care for them deeply.
As far what have I done, not much besides go to the memorial service on Parliment Hill and donate to a local charity, collecting money for disaster relief. We are visiting some friends in Ithaca on Oct. 5, and it is my intention to give blood while there. But the proof is in the pudding. I'm not blaming the US for what has happened, I'm not a believe in linear causality. However I think it is important not only to be reactive, but also proactive. What circumstances lead up to the attack? Can some be prevented? This not a war that can ever be won. As long as there are pychotics and people that despair to the point of feeling that they have no other recourse but to commit terrorist acts. I believe that terrorists everywhere should be out and out killed. However, I wonder if there also isn't way from stopping some of them from becoming terrorists in the first place. I also believe that a policy of not alligning with, training, and arming terrorist and dictators would help in reducing their numbers and/or their effectiveness.
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In a black and white world, that would be a good plan. What do you do in this gray one?
IE: The Northern Alliance... bound to have some folks in that outfit just as nasty as the Taleban. Heck, seems some of them switch sides as often as one changes socks. Might be just as bad or nearly so if they beat the Taleban and took over in Afghanistan.
So... do we support them or not?
Stay away in total?
Heard today that Afghanistan has about 30 days of food supplies in the country. Give them food? To which side? All sides?
Pretty clear the present ruling mob supports and succors terrorists. Even Miss Cleo says supporting the Taleban is out.
I have a call into Miss Cleo about the Northern Alliance/United Front, but she hasn't gotten back to me yet.
What to do, what to do.. gracious me.
I think I'll call Miss Cleo again right now.
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Oh dang... one accidental click of the wrong mouse button and 20 mins of typing go right down the crapper. (Dunno what I'm more pissed at - the erase of it or myself for the fact that I spent 20 minutes typing a reply) :)
Anyway - what I said, basically, was:
Thrawn, I think easymo was talking about you and Hotseat.
Also, I agree (to a point) that "skeptism of a goverment's actions, and questioning them, is part of a healthy democracy at anytime." It's only the "anytime" part I take a bit of issue with. Despite an interesting new wave of political correctness being embraced by many who would seem to be opposed to that sort of thing - now really *isn't* the time to lobby criticism at foreign policy or any such thing. It's akin to getting sucker punched in a bar and having yer pal ask only "are you absolutely *sure* you weren't checking out his girlfriend?" There will indeed be time for a deeper discussion on the issues surrounding this tradgedy - but in case anyone's thermometer is completely hosed, it aint the climate for it. Nor should it be. As a discussion it may be interesting, but anyone can be an armchair quaterback with 20/20 vision... and it doesn't change what occured one bit.
Indeed, what occured on Sept. 11th changes everything *else*... and what really matters is this point forward. Sure it's imperative to examine what lead up to it... but only to a certain extent I think. I mean, how deep do you want intellectualize the barbaric acts of *terrorists*? How deep *can* one one explore this? How much weight do you want to give these guys? In that light, (and not speaking about you Thrawn) the leveling of blame at the US for a terrorist attack is nonsensical to the extreme.
As far as what lies ahead (for those in favour of a peaceful process)...
This isn't a territory dispute. bin Laden doesn't want your CD collection or your Land Rover. He doesn't think his people are getting ripped off over unfair tarrifs on nuts and prunes. He has no desire to be a contender in the arms race. He simply wants to erradicate western culture. Is that too much to ask? Now how does one go about entering a dialogue with someone who's "win condition" is, well, your death? Nothing more, nothing less. What exactly is there to negotiate? Nothing. You cannot do it, yet to ignore it would be insanity, and incredibly irresponsible.
Ispar - I'm genuinely curious... What would be the Quaker view of this? Is assimilation into or anhilition by these people really prefferable to defence? If not, how does one go about a defence without mounting an offence in this case? If so, wow...
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Thanks guys for your input, I think I understand your points of view and I hope you understand mine. Just one question. Who the f$%^ is Hotseat?
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Thanks for your input guys. I think I understand your points of view and I hope you understand mine. Just one question. Who the f$%^ is Hotseat?
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Hello....
Maybe I be wrong, but isnt it that´in Turkey exist a big sea with a damm and we are able to cut the whole middle east water off??? :D
Andreas (JV 44)
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"Guys like thrawn, and hotseat, over at ien, are a good reminder to us. If you are looking for a helping hand, look at the end of your own arm." - easymo
Hotseat is the guy working on Warbirds now.
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That "Peaceful US" sounds funny in conjuction with "Crazed people of Islam"
Consider all those homecides etc. in US and little wars in europe/asia.
and now that attack afganistan mentality.. peaceful.
dunno what really differs people that much.
I've seen muslims being quite peaceful themself too, when comparing to US.
Can't talk about extremists, terrorists though.
Remember that hijacks were made by relatively small group of people, whos crazed nuts.. nothing comparable to Islam than their biased thoughts of it.
Islam forbits killing of innocent people and their thoughts of Jihad are completely wrong.
Though, can't say that christians would be any better - remember the crusades and killing of indians in north america.
In both cases christians were thought to be the good side.
Christians have probably caused/been part in more wars than muslims during last couple centuries.
Nothing justifies terrorist attacks, but thou should also mind the facts (what Islam really is, not what terrorists thinks of it) and not be alike your enemy - terrorists.
Mind that terrorist attacks might also be just to enrage certain people, so they would become more anti-islam and attack.
Which would make terrorists feel more like fightning for the right cause.
[ 09-26-2001: Message edited by: Fishu ]
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Originally posted by Fishu:
Christians have probably caused/been part in more wars than muslims during last couple centuries.
Yup, you were definitely right on this account.
Christians have been involved in a whole lot more wars than Muslims.
Then again, Muslims have been in a never-ending war since then beginning of time with Jewish people.
So if you are talking in terms of how long the wars have lasted, the Muslims take the cake.
-SW
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Many of my countrymen take comfort in their religion. For that I am grateful. Beyond that, what the hell does religion have to do with anything?
I never once wondered what religion my target was. This isn't about religion. Its about pest control. We have called the orkin man, and he is on the way over. Our "rat" problem is being dealt with.
Stay focused people. Our enemy wants to give this a far grander design then it deserves.
[ 09-26-2001: Message edited by: easymo ]
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Then again, Muslims have been in a never-ending war since then beginning of time with Jewish people.
Actually, Wulfe, this is incorrect. 600-700AD doesn't qualify as the beginning of time, which is when Islam began as a religion ;) Also, Muslims and Jews got along quite well throughout history, and there were many times that European Jews fled to the Islamic world during medieval times to escape the pogroms and persecutions of Christians. It wasn't until the formation of the state of Israel that Muslim-Jewish relations went south.
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You're prolly right Leonid, I dunno much Middle Eastern history... ;)
They've been fighting for a long time, that's all I know. :)
-SW
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<Edit> Please read it all.
<EDIT> They changed the address.<EDIT>
http://www.usatoday.com/hear.htm (http://www.usatoday.com/hear.htm)
Yeah, who says they're crazed?
Sample:
"At the Haqquania madrassa, a student who says he has just attended one of bin Laden's training camps pulls out a training manual, called the "encyclopedia," which U.S. officials say is used at the camps in Afghanistan. "Now listen, American, and listen well," says Hussain Zaeef, 21. He reads from Page 12 of the manual: " 'Bomb their embassies and vital economic centers.' That's what I will do to you and your country. I will get your children. I will get their playgrounds. I will get their schools, too. I will get all of you."
Kids.. they're so cute.
It's a cage match, Hundred Years War style.
[ 09-26-2001: Message edited by: Toad ]
[ 09-27-2001: Message edited by: Toad ]
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(http://a388.g.akamai.net/f/388/21/1d/www.cnn.com/images/0109/top.supplies.fromU.S.jpg)
USA: Evil Incarnate.
[ 09-26-2001: Message edited by: Toad ]
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Originally posted by Toad:
(http://a388.g.akamai.net/f/388/21/1d/www.cnn.com/images/0109/top.supplies.fromU.S.jpg)
I'd like to shove a couple of those wheat bags up Bin Laden's ass...
-SW
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I think what Thrawn was trying to say is that in a "war" against one group of Islamic fundamentalists which you have previously armed and trained, arming and training another set of Islamic fundamentalists a couple of miles down the road from the first group to help you seems to be not just stupid, but obstinately so. You don't really need to be psychic to see that's going to be trouble later on. Kinda like playing Russian Roulette with an automatic pistol: The outcome is pretty clear cut.
Also it might be smart for the US to pay attention to Canada and learn from them. They don't have Islamic terrorist attacks in their cities. Why is this? What's their secret?
[ 09-27-2001: Message edited by: -dead- ]
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Cant help but think about the aid given the Chinese, by us and the brits, during ww2.
You are right, that probably was a mistake.
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Absolutely ;) Look where that got you guys.
They helped fund and train Ho Chi Minh too. Seem to recall he wasn't your friend later on, either.
You appear to be arguing against yourself here.
[ 09-27-2001: Message edited by: -dead- ]
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They? I notice you are posting from Hong Kong.
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"They" as in the US & Britain.
And I do apologize for not conforming to your racial stereotyping. ;)
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Racial Stereotyping? Do you have to be Oriental to be Chinese now.
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Hmm depends what you mean by Chinese and Oriental. Define yer terms.
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If you don't understand the words Chinese, and oriental. I fear we have a language problem that is insurmountable.
BTW. Unlike most Americans who think all North Vietnamese carried AK-47,s I know for a fact that many carried type 56-1 assault rifles. A Chinese copy of the AK. Also the K-50M SMG also a Chinese copy of a Soviet weapon. In fact a long list of supplies and weapons. Thats a lot of money.
Strangely, shortly after the U.S. left Vietnam. The Vietnamese kicked the Chinese bellybutton out of their country. Seems to me, everybody makes a bad investment sooner or later :)
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Well to me an Oriental = a person from one of several ethnic groups in Asia. And Chinese = either a person from one of the ethnic groups in China OR a citizen of the People's Republic of China. Either way, yes you have to be Oriental to be Chinese. The PRC won't let anyone be a citizen unless they're one of the 56 different ethnic groups in China. And to be ethnically Chinese makes you ethnically Oriental by default, as Chinese is a sub group of Oriental. But you don't have to be Chinese to be Oriental.
And pointing out that the PRC also armed the Vietnamese and then also got their sorry butts kicked afterwards in 1980 is still arguing against yourself and proving my point. My original argument of "why not stop giving guns to the nutbags?" stands.
[ 09-27-2001: Message edited by: -dead- ]
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There are weapons, and then there are weapons. You will notice we don't give Nukes to nut bags. Do you want to talk about where the North Koreans got theirs.
BTW. If I follow your last post corectly. You live in the most raceist country I ever heard of.
[ 09-27-2001: Message edited by: easymo ]
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You don't give nukes to nutbags!? Funny, I thought George W was in charge of the US nukes. And that Ronald Reagan guy (the one with the Alzheimers) had his finger over the button for a bit too. :D
Seriously, though - as far as I know only one country has ever actually used nuclear weapons on another country...
I digress.
North Korea is I fear the least of our worries - it will fold soon enough. I believe the PRC have also sold the tech to Algeria and possibly Libya, the loonies. Which yet again illustrates the old "don't give weapons to nutbags" argument as being fairly sound.
Hats off to you Easymo for backing up my argument again.
PS The most racist country? - I dunno, certainly one of the most racist citizenship policies ;). Far as I know they never had segregated schools or buses or stuff, except in the Foreign enclosures, pre '49 where there were cute little signs like "No Dogs or Chinese" in Parks and stuff. Check out the Great Wall as well - what's that all about?!?
However, I live in Hong Kong, which ain't the same kettle of fish at all. They'll let you stay in Hong Kong forever once you've been resident for 7 years. And the work visa is a lot less hassle than a green card. Hell even the US 7th fleet get drunk here whenever they're around.
[ 09-27-2001: Message edited by: -dead- ]
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Originally posted by SWulfe:
Then again, Muslims have been in a never-ending war since then beginning of time with Jewish people.
Sorry but it's completly wrong (except for the last 50 year) often they were strong jewish comunauty in arabian country and they were living without trouble.
The Intolerance of some muslims is something new (about 40 year) muslims didn't start crusade like the christians.
In fact concerning religion muslims were more tolerant than us during a long time it's just since the 60's that the extremist got a big audience.
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OK. Let me try to spell this out.
When we left Vietnam. We probably left behind more weapons then we have intentionally given to any country since WW2. So what! There is a huge Ocean between us and them. What are they going to do? Drive a tank across the ocean. Do you think we will let some guy with an M-16 shoved down his pants on a plane? (look what the N.Y. terrorist were armed with). Belive it or not. We are carful about what we pass out. The point is, buy the time a country develops the technology to deliver troops to use these type of weapons. Their technology will be advanced enough that they don't need our old junk. The world saw what happened the one time someone tried to put a real weapon near us (Cuba).
On the other hand. If, for some reason the North Koreans, get mad at the PRC. Well, hell. They are just across the river. How many guys does it take to carry a nuke.
We could give the Northern Alliance train loads of small arms. It would not threaten us. We just want ben laden and his boys. Then we are out of there.
[ 09-27-2001: Message edited by: easymo ]
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Ok.....EVERYONE LISTEN UP!
Seems this has changed into a debate about who's country is the best. That answer is easy. Don't bother poping up your opinion....it isn't the deciding vote, and here is why.
The answer to that question is whatever country people are tyring to emigrate to, so much that the country has to erect baricades and boarder patrols to keep them out. The masses have spoken.
Now, what the hell is all this roadkill talk about the evil United States? That same United States that has just nuked Afganistan or that other United States that hasn't killed a single person in retaliation for 6,000+ of our own people dead?
You all are asking us Americans to show restraint. WHAT THE diddly DO YOU THINK WE ARE DOING? Nobody has died by our hands yet, and by all rights nobody will in the forseeable future. Large numbers of civilian casualties are not on the United States agenda. Even the Gulf War was very light on civilian casualties acording to the Iraqis themselves.
Should the USA go after the Taliban? Hell, yes! They knew about what was going on and didn't think it was a bad idea at all. They are enemies of the United States and are guilty of gross negligence.
Should the United States get involved with the Northern Aliance? Tough call. I'm not really happy that we helped Afganistan once before and this is the thanks we get. I don't want to help any Arab nation anymore. The only thing I want from them is oil, and I want that to change as soon as possible.
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Good point Lt Hans.
And I hope the US continues to show restraint - because if they don't, I fear we're all screwed. The world is too small these days for this sort of scary bellybutton conflict.
I don't think a "War" on terrorism with military strikes, arming other terrorists, or anything to do with weaponry will help the cause of peace in any way. Kill one, and 30 new ones convert to the terrorist cause - look at the pictures at the top of this thread - Pakistanis and Indonesians going all out on the terrorist side - and that's just with a threat of a war. Are they all just going to calm down and go home if you kill bin Laden and bomb the Taliban? I don't think so: I reckon they'll join the cause, learn to fly and then ...? The whole cycle repeats all over again, and again, and again.
If terrorism were as easily dealt with as many on this BBS reckon (a nuke, EMP, a Barrett, the Special Forces, smart weaponry, poison wetsuit - whatever), it wouldn't happen at all, it would have been dealt with already. The problem is you can not fight it with a military solution (look at Israel & N.Ireland - 50+ years of fighting), it has to be dealt with politically, you have to make the terrorist cause unpopular, even foolish. You don't do that by executing and bombing people, that only excites other people into a rage - think how angry the US is now. Why are they calling for Bin Laden's head and the overthrow of the Taliban?
I don't reckon the US is any more evil than any other country. I'm an equal opportunites lad: I think all countries suck - although actually I think my own country has got the most despicable track record over the last couple of centuries, what with invention of concentration camps, several genocides (including the only successful one), state-sponsored and enforced drug dealing etc.
If the US sides with the Northern Alliance, they side with a group that is almost identical to the group they want to fight, and looking at past history, odds on they'll have a pop at the US once they're finished with the Taliban, just like the Taliban did when they finished with the Russians. Furthermore, the US invalidates any serious claim of a "war on terrorism", by using a group that basically seem to be the same as the terrorists.
Finally, the US still doesn't have proof positive that the Taliban knew about it or that Bin Laden was responsible, so any act of aggression thataways would also be daft until there is proof [and if the US is going to use military might it had better be damn near irrefutable proof].
Sadly, I fear that this lack of proof is the only thing holding the retaliation fireworks show up, not any real restraint.
"Patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons." - Betrand Russell
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The problem is that the terrorist attacks are NOT going to stop.
The attacks are not based in "reason"; there IS no even remotely justifiable reason to crash an airliner into the WTC.
No matter what we do, these attacks will continue.
Respond militarily? The attacks continue.
Respond diplomatically? The attacks continue.
Don't respond? The attacks continue.
Beg forgiveness for all our Evil on the world stage? The attacks continue.
Nothing we can do will satisfy the Islamic extremists. The Great Satan has to wiped off the face of the earth so their perfect religion can flourish in peace. (Just look at how much the Taliban has accomplished! Think of how great a whole world like that would be!)
There is no "WIN" here; get used to it. For the next hundred years you're going to be engaged in what amounts to damage control.
It isn't patriotism at all... get this and get it good: It's survival.
...and if and when the US fails and falls, the other infidel nations will be next in line. These guys have to have something against which they can struggle.
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Hello all....
Before WTC was attacked I was believe that terrorists are only terrorists because they are poor, not edjucated and have nothing to loose....
But now I see that the terrorists of WTC was not poor, well edjucated and sure have some things to loose...
Is there a way to stop such intellegent elements....???
After WWII one idea of allied was to sterilisate all germans so that only a matter of time we disappear of this planet...
But Germany have learned the lesson and today nobody in europe is afraid of us (exept poeple who play aceshigh
:D )
So, maybe they only need the same hard lesson that germany was teached in WWII and maybe than they will wake up and learn their lesson??? :rolleyes:
Andreas (JV44)
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i agree with toad but am left with this question...
is a nation built on consensus capable of carrying out what needs to be done?
the enemy knows how simplistic and easily puppeted the american public is and all they will have to do to break our will is send a video tape to cnn showing some burnt children and women pleading for an end to the u.s. actions kneeling over their dead sons and daughters.
or some little big eyed 3 year old with a bandage asking "mommy why do they want to kill me" translated from the arabic...
at least 1/2 of americans' resolve will crumble into memory when they see that inevitable scene.
i'm glad we didn't have 24hr news coverage during wwii - can you imagine the soccer mom protest outside of the capital if there had been?:
"no more burning babies in dresden and tokyo you warmongers - they looked really, really sorry and sad so let's stop <crowd: YEAH!!!!NO MORE WAR NO MORE WAR...>!!!"
if bush tells the people 'tough titty, this is war, grow a spine...' then they will just compare him to some fascist like hitler and he won't have any power - the future sucks the way i see it.
sometime after the 1st actions the dissent will start in earnest. then we'll really see what we're made of. this unity fairytale is a patriotic wet dream that people are gonna wake up from when they realize how fragmented we really are. too bad too - i was starting to like it.
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Fish, I share your concerns.
Frankly, no, I don't believe the US at this time has the necessary understanding of just what type of conflict they are involved in.
Therefore, I think there's a large chance we're going to lose and lose big.
Only a fool would doubt that the terrs have considered more deadly operations than diving an airliner into downtown USA. Bio, chemical, conventional explosives and undoubtedly nuke options have been considered and pursued to the best of their ability.
At some point, after such an attack, with far greater casualties than WTC, the populace may wake up to the actual magnitude of the threat.
However, I believe that will be too late; it may be too late now.
Then thoughts will turn to vengeance, pure and simple. The old, "if I'm going down, I'm taking them down with me" mode.
That's what has been keeping me awake at nights lately.
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I think that if people around the world really understood the magnatude of this we'd already be bombing the afgans, iraq, iran and any state on "the list". We'd probobly already have troops on the ground, if we don't already ;)
I'm scared, but I'm not going to let it rule my life. That's what "they" want. Screw "them"...
U
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Sooner or later.. probably sooner, they (the terrs) will use a weapon of mass destruction against the US.. gas or bio... maybe a suitcase nuke.
Then, it will get truly ugly.
There will be glass craters at Baghdad, Kabul, Tehran, etc... maybe a few here too.
Yha know, this could have all been avoided in 1979 by simply turning the 52 American Hostages in Tehran into 52 American Martyrs by the simple act of turning Tehran into a Crater.
Simple formula... one dead american by terrorist action equals one Islamic city vaporized.
Kill two americns; lose two cities. Kill three americans, a peaceful islamic nation is gone.
DON'T diddly WITH US.
Thank you. You are now free to travel the world without worry.
:D
*sigh*
Then I woke up.
:(
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Thrawn said:
After all the US gov't seems to feel it has a right to try and dictate what the laws of Canada should be. (Search for info on the North American Defense Perimeter)
Nah, I think we should just close down our border with Canada so we don't have to worry about the huge security leak from the North. After all, we do have the right to do that, don't we?
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Originally posted by koala:
Nah, I think we should just close down our border with Canada so we don't have to worry about the huge security leak from the North. After all, we do have the right to do that, don't we?
You're right Hang.
ehm, Fine by me.
[ 09-27-2001: Message edited by: Thrawn ]
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I liked your original "Fine by me" answer, the one you had up there before you changed it to "Hypocracy".
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Yeah, Thrawn. It's the bad ole USA that has tried to oppress the entire rest of the world.
...thanks for the smiles.. this has been a pretty down day otherwise.
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I have to agree with you on one point toad - the attacks probably won't stop if you do nothing or if you do diplomatic stuff, but I reckon they'll only get worse if you respond militarily. I don't know what the other way out is - I suspect it may involve ceasing to support Israel, no matter what they do, and withdrawing all US troops from the Middle East - but I do know that blowing places up never works very well (did it cow the US into submission? Or did it just unite them and piss them off?), especially when you're dealing with something that isn't bound to any geographical location, or any particular state (Yeah, bomb the Taliban - as if Bin Laden and his loons really cared - they are probably praying for the US to do it).
And charging around the whole of the Islamic world threatening people and governments with dire retributions is definitely not top of the "how to win friends and influence people" list, the "how to promote world peace" list or indeed the "how not to destabilize the whole of the Middle East and quickly escalate the conflict up to nuclear war" list.
What sort of war will it be? I fear it's a total unwinnable war - like software/mp3 protection - you can't react fast enough - you can't tell who's a threat until it's too late, and by the time you deal with them, there's another group waiting in the wings, that you don't know about. A guess that it will drag on for over 50 years at least seems pretty fair (based on Israel and N. Ireland). Everyone home by 2051 - that prospect doesn't appeal to me. Mind that's if we're lucky - if not, then Hangtime can throw away his faded copy of "Trinity and Beyond" ;) and watch nuclear explosions live on CNN. And then we're all stuffed, and on our species' death certificate they'll have to put "stupidity" as the cause of death. :(
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-dead-, I beleive if they had nukes, they would have already used them against the U.S.
Why? They seem to have but one desire and that is to rid the planet of the Western civilization, or more apropo, the U.S.
What do you do when a group of people want to kill you and that is the only thing they desire? When that is thier whole goal in life? When they are more than happy to die as long as they can take out an an American or two in the process. What do you do?
We are not in a "no win" situation. Quite the contrary. But the "win" will cost millions of lives and take a lot of time.
Now, I am not lumping in the entire Middle East into that pot, nor even all of Afghanistan. I do not beleive there are millions of people out there with but one thought on thier minds, and that is to kill anything or person American.
The longer we wait, the more time these people get to find nukes. I have zero doubt they will use them.
The clock is ticking.
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"And then we're all stuffed, and on our species' death certificate they'll have to put "stupidity" as the cause of death"
In my darker moments, that's pretty much the way I see it going down.
They have the advantage by a long shot; they have no ROE and we have restrictive ROE.
So, they'll always be able to strike at a time and place of their choosing.
Eventually, the US will be either damaged enough or enraged enough.. or probably both together... that there will be retribution on a scale never before seen in the history of mankind. Innocence at that moment will not matter.
Hypothetically assume the smallpox or anthrax variation. Successfully and repeatedly introduced into the US, it quickly kills 1/2 the population with more dying every day. You think we'll go gentle into that goodnight? I don't. A nuke strike against NYC or LA? Or both? Same result.
Yes, it would mean abandoning all we've tried to be, all we've tried to stand for....
but in the last extremity, that will not matter. Blood will call out for blood and the call will be answered... in spades.
Problem is, as I said, this outcome would be pretty much independent of ANY actions the US takes or does not take.
The terrorists are not going to stop, no matter what we do. Stop supporting Israel? They'll say it's the sanctions against Iraq. Lift the sanctions against Iraq? They'll always have another reason. They do this because it makes them important, because it gives reason to their existence.
There are more than enough countries that will hide them or fail to actively seek them out. Bound to be some folks that are privately enjoying the US getting whacked, no matter what they say in public.
So, although I'm sure not the Biblical type ;) , this may be the beginning of The End of Days.
I see no way out. The terrorists have finally reached their "takeoff point" and they now control the game in toto.
Bad news for all hands on Spaceship Earth, I fear.
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it's not the threats from them or some secret weapon that will stop us -
it's our own willowy policies and the fact that we are trying to fix the whole world without offending anyone or losing any friends!
if we want to enforce this unrealistic dream of reshaping the world in our image with no rouge countries, no terrorists, no undemocratic ideals, we would have to go in and occupy every nation we don't agree with and strong arm them into submission.
can you imagine that mess!? you know that will straight up never happen even if it were militarily or morally possible!
i like hang's idea best - don't popsiclefoot around, just nuke a bunch of civilians everytime they commit a terrorist act and see how long they stay popular in their home countries. sometimes it's best to just get to the point.
- this long protracted diplomatic dance just sounds stupid. better to get the losses out of the way at once and get on with our lives.
you know osama said we were rutabagas compared to the russians - he was right.
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rutabagas?
At the end of WW2 we could have let the Japanese off the hook. Negotiated through the Russians. Instead we dropped jellied gasoline on Tokyo. Burned 150 thousand people up. Then the Atom Bombs. McArther got his unconditional surrender.
The North Vietnamese claim we killed two million Vietnamese. We lost 58 thousand.
Seventy thousand Iraqis. We lost about a hundred.
I would say we not only don't have a problem with killing people. We are dammed good at it.