Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: sgtdeaux on October 15, 2005, 11:55:13 PM
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This one is really simple..
The rear aiming periscope for the 20mm cannons on the AR234 is already modeled into the cockpit of the bomber.. it would be really nice if one was able to access this feature to aim the cannons therefore turning them into an acutal defensive weapon as opposed to a excess weight.
Perhaps have the zoom feature from the cockpit access the veiw simular to the way f6 accesses the bomb sight.
Thank you.
-sgt paul deaux
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First of all thankyou for bringing up the Arado:aok
I would like to share this pic of a arado with 4 engines:huh :O
yes I said 4 engines
http://www.flugplatzloennewitz.de/Arado2.jpg
http://www.luftwaffepics.com/lar2343.htm
I believe thats enough evidents:) .
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Awsome picture..
Ive seen some black and whites of this model before and just slobbered over them... we can only dream. :)
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Someone said this before
why not just make a rear view for the ar234 and stick the bombing cross hair on it, make it key number two to switch to this view.
Just a thought
And while we are at it, give us the four engine version as a new pek bomber
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Cool pics:aok . Yea it is hard to shoot with the back gun on the aroto and there were 4 engines on it. So why dont we have 4:huh :mad:
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I see a lot of research went into these posts. first off, the rearward sites has been discussed and beaten like a dead horse for years. I have been gone for 2 + years and it still isn't there and probably never will be. Second, the 234C never saw combat, and if Ht were adding planes that were on the development boards/flight trials well we could have a ton of fun planes that were not used historically. X-Wings are not WW2.
On a second thought on the gun sites though, that does seem like a good idea, but rather cartoonish if you ask me. Reminds me of flying in that game that MS used to make.
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Originally posted by ahgod69
Second, the 234C never saw combat
Not true.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/505_1129647571_ar234-c3.jpg)
"At around the same time two Ar 234 prototypes V5 and V7 were sent to the Luftwaffe reconnaissance unit Ob.d.L.1 to evaluate the aircraft in the field, the first operational flight being on the 2/8/1944 with flights over the Allied beachhead in Normandy.
It had all ways been hoped to find a better engine set up for the Arado 234 from the beginning and prototypes V6 and V8 were used to test the BMW 003 turbojet engine, which because it didn't make so much power as the Junkers engine was fitted two to a wing (separately for the V6 and in pairs for the V8). This work led in time to the Ar 234C which was to be the definitive production model
The AR 234C had a number of improvements a better pressurized cockpit, larger wheels, two 20mm cannons (firing to the rear) it was intended to make a number of versions of this aircraft Reconnaissance, Bomber, Ground Attack, Night Fighter and Formation Command, altogether only 19 production Ar 234C's (as well as thirteen C model prototypes V19-V31) were made out of the order for 2,500 aircraft along with around 200 of the Ar 234B. A number of new wing and cockpit designs were ready to be tested by the wars end, the V16 with variably swepted wings and the V30 with a two man cockpit."
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Does that mean wings like a Tomcat? Or just angled back?
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Originally posted by Larry
"At around the same time two Ar 234 prototypes V5 and V7 were sent to the Luftwaffe reconnaissance unit Ob.d.L.1 to evaluate the aircraft in the field, the first operational flight being on the 2/8/1944 with flights over the Allied beachhead in Normandy.
It had all ways been hoped to find a better engine set up for the Arado 234 from the beginning and prototypes V6 and V8 were used to test the BMW 003 turbojet engine, which because it didn't make so much power as the Junkers engine was fitted two to a wing (separately for the V6 and in pairs for the V8). This work led in time to the Ar 234C which was to be the definitive production model
[/B]
Note it says prototype V5 and V7 (2 engine models) flew the sorties. Prototypes V6 and V8 tested a lower powered jet engine in pairs (4 engined models). Every report of an operational sortie I have read about has indicated the b (2 engine) model.
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Iv seen videos of the BMW 234 taking off with bombs straped on was that one going to make a test flight with bombs on?
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Originally posted by Larry
Not true.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/505_1129647571_ar234-c3.jpg)
"At around the same time two Ar 234 prototypes V5 and V7 were sent to the Luftwaffe reconnaissance unit Ob.d.L.1 to evaluate the aircraft in the field, the first operational flight being on the 2/8/1944 with flights over the Allied beachhead in Normandy.
It had all ways been hoped to find a better engine set up for the Arado 234 from the beginning and prototypes V6 and V8 were used to test the BMW 003 turbojet engine, which because it didn't make so much power as the Junkers engine was fitted two to a wing (separately for the V6 and in pairs for the V8). This work led in time to the Ar 234C which was to be the definitive production model
The AR 234C had a number of improvements a better pressurized cockpit, larger wheels, two 20mm cannons (firing to the rear) it was intended to make a number of versions of this aircraft Reconnaissance, Bomber, Ground Attack, Night Fighter and Formation Command, altogether only 19 production Ar 234C's (as well as thirteen C model prototypes V19-V31) were made out of the order for 2,500 aircraft along with around 200 of the Ar 234B. A number of new wing and cockpit designs were ready to be tested by the wars end, the V16 with variably swepted wings and the V30 with a two man cockpit."
I am not saying it never saw combat persay but using prototypes as an example will not get it fielded. Trust me I would love to see it, I can use the DO-335 as an example as well. Combat Airman saw this plane flown, but details surrounding its usage was lost (Yes there were production machines for this line). Prototypes are one thing, but actual production machines is another. A case can be put up for numerous aircraft that fit this (criteria). It's a beautiful plane, just won't make it in here. :(
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Originally posted by ahgod69
It's a beautiful plane, just won't make it in here. :(
You havent heard about the 3 gun la7 then I guess. No more then 20 were made in the whole was and its in here AND its not even perked.
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Originally posted by Larry
You havent heard about the 3 gun la7 then I guess. No more then 20 were made in the whole was and its in here AND its not even perked.
Larry,
I have been on this board for many years, and have seen everything from when it first started, well within 5 tours of first starting. The La-7 controversy has been around for years, along with the D-9, G-10, P-47's, A-5'S, Spits's, 234. They have been around, the one thing I was surprised to see when I came back after being absentee was the 190 F-8 having rockets. I posted numerous sources, pictures, data. And it finally made it in, just took awhile.
Not sure who said they only made 20 of the 3 cannon model but I have different sources that state there were far more made then 20. Past memory fails me but I will look it up.
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I don't intend to try to hijack this thread but I see so many arguements over how many of what LA7 was made so I found this site about the la7 enjoy.
Lavochkin La-7
�_home ●lavochkin history LaGG-3 La-5 La-9
Лавочкин Ла-7
The La-7 was a development of the La-5, which was very similar in appearance. It was fitted with a 1850hp (1380Kw) Shvetsov radial engine. Armament was increased to three ShVak 20mm cannons. The oil radiator was moved to the lower center of the fuselage. The La-7 had an increase in speed of about 10-15mph over the La-5. Due to the improvements it was preferred by many Soviet Aces for its speed, maneuverability, firepower and general performance. The La-7 prototype first flew in early 1944.
The La-7 was about 44mph faster than the FW-190 (its main nemesis).
Although the La-7 was initially designed with the three-cannon arrangement, only about 368 were delivered in this configuration, compared with more than 3000 two-cannon La-7's delivered.
The first operational unit to receive the new fighter was the 176th Guards Fighter Aviation Regiment in July 1944.
The La-7 scored 55 victories in the 63rd Guards Fighter Aviation Regiment between September 15th and October 15th 1944.
The La-7 ended service for the Soviets in 1947.
Lavochkin La-7
Powerplant 1380kW (1850hp) M-82FN (Ash-82FN) 14-cylinder radial engine
Max Speed 665km/h (413mph) at 5,000m (16,404ft)
Ceiling 10,800m (35,435ft)
Max Range 635km (395 miles)
Wing Span 9.8m (32ft 1in)
Length 8.6m (28ft 2in)
Height 2.54m (8ft 4in)
Empty Weight 2,638kg (5,816lb)
Max Weight 3,400kg (7,496lb)
Armament 3x 20mm Beresin B-20 ShVak nose cannons* (with 200 rounds per gun)
6x 8.2cm (3.23in) RS-82 rockets, or
100kg of bombs.
*Only about 368 left the factory with this armament.
�_home ●lavochkin history LaGG-3 La-5 La-9
Oh and on topic I would love to be able to aim those #$@#$ guns in the 234 even as it is now I can hardly see the tracers to tell where the rounds are going.
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Totally flaming this one........ADD THE b-29!
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Does that mean wings like a Tomcat? Or just angled back?
if its talking in todays terms a "variable swept" wing means it varies. aka the same wing as the RAF Tornado today.
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Originally posted by Flayed1
The La-7 was about 44mph faster than the FW-190 (its main nemesis).
So that would put the La-7 at around 476 mph :P LOL
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The fastest 190 I have listed im my book is the F-3 at 395 mph so even at that the LA-7 would only be 439 mph. it would depend on what 190 they were compairing it to.
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I always thought the fastest Fw-190 would be the D-9? (At altitude)
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Originally posted by Flayed1
The fastest 190 I have listed im my book is the F-3 at 395 mph so even at that the LA-7 would only be 439 mph. it would depend on what 190 they were compairing it to.
Throw that book away...
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Originally posted by frank3
I always thought the fastest Fw-190 would be the D-9? (At altitude)
Probably yes but my book didn't list the D9 so all I could do was list the fastest one I had reference on sorry for the confusion. and we don't know what 190 they were compairing tha LA-7 to for the speed.
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Originally posted by Larry
You havent heard about the 3 gun la7 then I guess. No more then 20 were made in the whole was .......................
This is rubbish............. 74 were built in one plant in Jan 45 alone with 3 x B20 version production increasing thru Feb, Mar, April 45 until well over 350 were delivered by May 45. (Gordon)
Infact the B20 was not well recieved in the field. Whilst it increased the weight of fire power to that originally specified it was considered unreliable with a service life typically less than 3500 rnds when the original specification called for a service life opf 5000 rnds. (Vestsik)
Just under 4000 La7's were reportedly built by May 45 and over 6000 by the end of 45.
Gorky produced.....4,610
Moscow produced......1,298
Ulan Ude produced..... 250
(Vestsik)
if the AR234 had a rear gun gun siht than its reasonable to wish it be modelled...........
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Originally posted by Flayed1
Probably yes but my book didn't list the D9 so all I could do was list the fastest one I had reference on sorry for the confusion. and we don't know what 190 they were compairing tha LA-7 to for the speed.
Are they comparing it to the 190 A1? Even still the La-7's top speed would be put around 431 mph. Who the hell writes these books you guys are buying?
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As AG said this topic has been beaten to death.
But anyway the Periscope wasn't just used to see 6 o'clock (it wasn't used necessarily to aim the guns as they were fixed) but could be turned forward and used a 'glide bombsight'. This way the 234 could bomb from altitude by entering into a shallow dive.
Also while were are on 'bombsight', the 234 bombsight was automated in that the pilot lined up on a general heading to target and engaged auto pilot. He then rotated the control column out of the way and then looked through the bomb site and locked (marked) the site on the target. The 234 adjusted course via the autopilot and then released the bombs on target automatically.
But as a bomber the 234 wasn't that great. It was mostly used a recce. The only 234 to see any kind of significant service is the 234b.
When operated as a bomber, the Ar-234 could be used in shallow dive attacks, low-level horizontal attacks, or high-altitude horizontal attacks. In shallow dive attacks, the pilot would drop from about 5,000 meters to under 1,500 meters (16,400 to 4,920 feet), aiming the bombs through the periscopic sight that stuck up above the cockpit. In low-level horizontal attack, used only when the target was obscured, the pilot simply flew level and dropped the bombs when it seemed appropriate. Results were not generally very impressive.
High-altitude horizontal attacks were particularly interesting. Since the Ar-234 was a single-seat aircraft, the pilot had to double as the bombardier, and did so with the help of a sophisticated Patin autopilot system. The pilot would fly to within about 30 kilometers (19 miles) of the target, engage the autopilot, swivel the control column out of his way to the right, and then lean over and sight the target through the Lotfe 7K bomb sight. The bomb sight was linked to the autopilot. As long as the pilot held the target in the crosshairs, the autopilot would change the aircraft's heading accordingly, and then the bomb sight would automatically drop the bombs at the right moment.
In principle, the Ar-234B had a pair of fixed rearward-firing 20 millimeter MG-151/20 cannon for protecting its tail, with the pilot sighting the guns through the periscope. Not only did the pilot have to be his own bombardier, he was his own tail gunner as well. However, in practice the guns were not always fitted and were never an important feature of the aircraft. Armor plate was attached to the rear wall of the cockpit to give the pilot a little protection.
Also, if you look at AH's 190s event the A-5 does 415mph or so at FTH. The fastest A series 190 was the A-9, the fastest production 190 was the Dora-9.
If your books tell you other wise burn them.
FYI an F-3 is basically an A-5 made into a fighter-bomber. Both the F-8 and F-9 were faster on the deck.
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fyi, bring the STUVI to AH for the Junkers...;)
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Originally posted by Bruno
fyi, bring the STUVI to AH for the Junkers...;)
well they did produce the D-11 and D-12 :P But we already know the numbers were just over 2 hands worth :P Still they did haul arse, the D-9 is and always will be the most beautiful of the 190's :P If ya think the 190's we have now roll quick, the earlier models were insane :P
The 234 like a lot of other LW mounts had the options of installing or not installing gun packages. A lot of time they weren't for saving weight. It would be a nice feature to be able to remove the Cowl guns to save some weight.
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http://gunsight.jp/b/english/data/sight-egg.htm
The last scope at the bottom of the images is the periscope for aiming the rear guns in the AR234 all models.
The bomb sight was not used to aim the rear guns.
The periscope is already modeled into the airplane in the game please add the ability to use this feature.
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It would BE in the game if it COULD be in the game. The reason it is not is because there's no easy way to add it, programming-wise.
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Why can't they just make it a turret? Press 2 and your in the site. I don't know if those guns moved or not, I assume the did to a small degree. You just have to set the end stops for the movement. easy!!!!
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Well the guns didn't move they were fixed. The problem is you aimed the rear by steering the nose, and if you just make it like a turret you can't control the plane (autopilot kicks in) so it defeats the purpose
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Originally posted by Hornet33
Why can't they just make it a turret? Press 2 and your in the site. I don't know if those guns moved or not, I assume the did to a small degree.
Reason why the chewbacca gun was never invented.
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Another turret view with control of the aircraft. You have control while in the F6 why not just add that to the second position in the 234. Seems like it would be easy enough. Code would have to be changed anyway just to add another position. No reason you couldnt disable Autopilot or change it in a way that would be more representative of a pilot looking through a periscope.
It wouldnt be perfect but better than what we have now. I use the F3 positon and look back pull trigger spray and pray.
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Which is the only way to aim it :)
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the 20mms on the arado arent dead weight, they can actually give u 10mph speed boost. its pretty cool if u need alittle extra power to dive away from somone:noid
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Originally posted by cav58d
Totally flaming this one........ADD THE b-29!
o boy
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AdD n00K TO aR234!!!111!!!!
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Originally posted by frank3
AdD n00K TO aR234!!!111!!!!
o boy...again
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The bomb sight was not used to aim the rear guns.
The periscope could be rotated 180 to face forward. When in that position it was used as a 'bomb sight' for glide bomb attacks (shallow dives from altitude). If you can't comprehend that then just stop posting.
The rearward firing 2cm were almost never fitted and were completely useless, periscope or no periscope. They are as equally useless in AH. However, having the periscope modeled so that it could be used as a 'glide bomb sight' would be much more 'useful' for high speed, higher altitude bomb attacks. In real life the 234, as a bomber, didn't achieve much. It was a a recce aircraft that it proved its worth.
Also from the link you provided:
BZA1-B Bombing Computer
What do you think that means?
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Originally posted by Bruno
What do you think that means?
Bombsight