Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Possi on July 09, 2001, 06:14:00 AM
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Donīt fly the Bf109 and the FW190 in IL-2!
When you fly this Planes in this Game,you never would like fly in AH or WB again!
This is the first Time where the Bf109 and FW190 fly so real in a Game.
Itīs a BIG different to AH or WB.
Il-2 is the "King of the Sims".
Oh man the last 3 years there me deceived with this FM,there lie to me.Let you warn, a new world is opened!
Now i canīt play AH and WB again sorry,i canīt :( the World is changed for me...
And damn the FM from ww2online is not 100% real,but better than in AH and Wb too.I canīt believe it :(
This is not a joke!
(http://trombke.bei.t-online.de/IL-2%20Bilder/grab0003.jpg)
[ 07-09-2001: Message edited by: Possi ]
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How do you know that Il-2 has it right?
Vati
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Originally posted by vatiAH:
How do you know that Il-2 has it right?
Vati
I am a Betatester :)and we have a real Bf109 Pilot here,so he know whats going on and we talk with a lot Bf109 Pilots from WW2,but pls never thinks is 100% Vati :)but this not a question!
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Hmm..Id have to test that, havent played Il-2 for a while. Guess that comes with an update.
One thing i really like is il-2:s gunnery. You have to AIM in that thing. d300 is MAX with any guns to hit, which is realistic. Also theres no need for icons, since the somehow the distance of plane is easy to measure with just size of the plane. In AH, planes are looking too small when theyre at shooting range.
The graphichs are also very nice. Hits make smoke puffs and theres lots of particles flying in the air. Just like in guncam footages.
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Originally posted by Possi:
but this not a question!
No, it's a joke.
Have you tested the plane's against real world data?
Until then, it's all subjective and really means nothing to me other than.. "it feels better".. and we all know X-Plane feels the best of them all!
:D
-SW
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I donīt would like diskussion over the FM pls!
This is just a Warning,thats it.I know all AH Pilots be a real Pilots with real world data :eek:
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Originally posted by Possi:
we have a real Bf109 Pilot here
or a real troll ?
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Possi, you kidding me.. wwiionline FM is like the old AW-DOS FM in easy mode.. So im not sure what the hell you are talkin about. Ive flow the 109 & Spit in wwiionline and memories from 13 years ago in AW-DOS came flooding back. And the Plasma Guns, whats with that? Dont remember watching any gun film that had Plasma bolts come outa the Spit or 109??
wwiionline has a childs Easymode FM, i think its to satisfy the masses. But they did a hell of a job on the Tanking part. It is an outstanding online Tank sim.
But my FM of choice remains here with AH..
IL2 just doent interest me, can it get 200 people in an arena? Ive no use flying anything Boxed if its against AI planes.
Only ever flown online.
Dog out.............
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unless IL2 goes MMP i'm not even looking at it ..
I rather fly in IMC and low visibilty with a gyro failure ina REAL REALISTIC transport category airplane sim than in a stand alone WW2 flight sim.. even if the AI is good it's just not the same thing as fighting against humans.
Oh and 16 people or even 32 isn't what i consider MMP.
DW6
who thinks no sim that doesn't have full motion AND a rally restricted envelope (like an airliner) will ever FEEL right.
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Originally posted by Wardog:
Possi, you kidding me.. wwiionline FM is like the old AW-DOS FM in easy mode.. So im not sure what the hell you are talkin about. Ive flow the 109 & Spit in wwiionline and memories from 13 years ago in AW-DOS came flooding back. And the Plasma Guns, whats with that? Dont remember watching any gun film that had Plasma bolts come outa the Spit or 109??
wwiionline has a childs Easymode FM, i think its to satisfy the masses. But they did a hell of a job on the Tanking part. It is an outstanding online Tank sim.
But my FM of choice remains here with AH..
IL2 just doent interest me, can it get 200 people in an arena? Ive no use flying anything Boxed if its against AI planes.
Only ever flown online.
Dog out.............
yeah,Wardog you right with ww2ol i know itīs still too far from real,but flying itīs easy,and not like a stall Flyingsim.
IL-2 is not a massiv online Game,this is correct,but this not a question!
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Here's what I think:
Possi found a game where the 109 and 190 hold all the cards and can turn fight to their hearts content.
Finally the feeble LimpWhistles have found themselves a game where they can rule all!
:)
-SW
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Originally posted by SWulfe:
Here's what I think:
Possi found a game where the 109 and 190 hold all the cards and can turn fight to their hearts content.
Finally the feeble LimpWhistles have found themselves a game where they can rule all!
:)
-SW
Sorry you do not have notion,pls go back and play with Barbies :p You do not know which are spoken here.
You should learn more and be tollerant.
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Uh oh.. he's getting mad!
Guess I hit too close to home.
I mean, you said the WW2Ol FM was good... so obviously this IL2 thing doesn't sound good now.
-SW
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Originally posted by SWulfe:
Uh oh.. he's getting mad!
Guess I hit too close to home.
I mean, you said the WW2Ol FM was good... so obviously this IL2 thing doesn't sound good now.
-SW
The FM in ww2ol is realer than AH&WB this is correct,but it still too far from real.
Bf109 FM from IL-2 is be the Best this Time.
Can't you read that?Do you need eyeglasses?
I wrote already on the top...
Your problem is which you only unrest to make would like!
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I read that in YOUR OPINION the IL2 Bf109 FM is "the best"... that matters about as much as a pile of dog doo to me. Sounds like hype. Sounds like B172, sounds like WW2Ol.... lotta hype. No data, nothing but opinions.
I'm just not buying that... I'll see what it's like when it comes out.
-SW
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Originally posted by SWulfe:
I read that in YOUR OPINION the IL2 Bf109 FM is "the best"... that matters about as much as a pile of dog doo to me. Sounds like hype. Sounds like B172, sounds like WW2Ol.... lotta hype. No data, nothing but opinions.
I'm just not buying that... I'll see what it's like when it comes out.
-SW
Oh no this is not only my OPINION so sorry,a many Betatester and 109 Pilots say that,you did not read correctly again!I buy you eyeglasses an ok? ;)
Jepp,you find that out!But donīt forget,I warned you! :D
Bye Bye
P.S.And have a nice stalling in you Ah109G-2 :D
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lol. This is hysterical. ;)
HiTech! Please toss all the numbers out the window and just make us a "FEELS RIGHT" flight model for every aircraft.
Westy
[ 07-09-2001: Message edited by: Westy MOL ]
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I read that part about the so-called 109 pilots flying in the beta test.
You still have yet to tell me the names of these so-called 109 pilots. You know, so I can maybe look them up and find out who they are. I'm sure if they flew, there must be records for them.
Anyways, 109 doesn't stall huh? I'm sure it's because of those leading edge slats.. pssst: any plane with wings will stall!
Your opinion of the flight model and the beta testers, still matters nothing to me. It's all subjective. What matters to me is how each plane flies comparitively to one another. If they don't match performance in relation to one another, then it's really a moot point and I wouldn't buy that game.
Tell me this: Can your 109G2 turn inside of an LaGG-3?
-SW
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Possi, I must ask this question.
"What is REAL[/i]?"
"How do you define REAL[/i]?"
"How can you compare which one is [/I]MORE real[/I]?"
.....
I've been watching quite many debates concerning certain Airplanes and its performance. To make it more specific, what I was especially interested in was the debate on the performance of the Hispano 20mm cannons.
There were two sides, one side was stating that the power and accuracy of the Hispano Cannons depicted in Aces High was an over-model. The other was arguing nothing was wrong. The former statement was based on pilot testimonies and records of certain happenings, such as gun jam or gun failure, and the latter had theirs based on numbers from factory tests. Though the debate was hot and gruesome, the AH community generally had to admit(if not pleasingly) the testaments and memories of individual pilots were subjective, while numbers and statistics were objective.
Just as it was in that case, what is "REALLY REAL" cannot be simply judged or implemented by a certain single person, since memory itself is objective. Therefore, the efforts taken into realistic modeling of aircraft performance will certainly have to rely on something more objective than just one pilot's opinion.
There are many cases of experienced pilots(even some expert mechanics, too)who have testified something in a biography or historic article which turned out to be either wrong or impossible, because the person who had that certain experience simply remembered it wrong(either they remembered it as they WISHED the certain thing to happen, or according to whatever logic their personal ego find satisfying).
What 'feels' wrong that cannot be proven, no matter how it lurks within one's brain, has no objective value whatsoever in historic re-creation. It can go as far as a "useful bit of reference info", but nothing more, nothing less. This does not mean testament of first-hand experience should be pushed away, but only that many articles and truths have to be cross-examined carefully to figure something out and judge it as "REAL ENOUGH".
AH flight modeling of most aircraft has done that - Careful cross examination of many(some even contradictory) facts and figures that float around the historical context of aircombat. And this community(I believe) certainly will not yield to claims on a certain aircraft modeling tested by a certain beta-tester and experienced pilot.
If you, Possi, want to claim that the modeling of the Messerschmitt-109 is more correct than that of AH, you'll have to:
1) Notify us where the modeling is wrong in AH 109
2) how it is different in IL-2
3) and how that difference in Il-2 matches historical data(both pilot testimonies AND statistical figures) more than AH does.
...
We don't mean to say that AH is never wrong. Just that we have good reason to believe that it is pretty much damn close to how it really was, than any other flight sims around.
We don't mean to insult you Possi, at least not yet :)
ps) But rest assured we might, if this sort of blind 'claiming' gets out of hand.
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SW you hit it on the head... a luftwhiner found a game where his plane is the "master race" plane and matches all the romance novels he has read on german planes. He would have been just as happy with AH if they would have made everything but the german planes handle like a truck.
Look how happy all the LW guys were with AH version 1.03 and earlier when nothing could avoid their planes. Nothing could turn so the LW planes were king with climb and acceleration...
Here's a clue and it works every time... If a luftwhiner likes something then it is bad for realism and for everyone but them and.... If he is crying huge tears then it is probly good FMing and good for everyone else.
lazs
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sorry,you all find that out by your self,sorry
September the Demo is coming,i hope for you :)
byeeee byeeee
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nice pix anyway :)
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Find WHAT out by ourselves?
Whether the FM on the 109's better on IL-2 or AH? I thought you were the one claiming it was REALLLLLY REAL in IL-2.
I think we need some answers, Possi. If it is more "REAL", tell us WHY. Don't give us that 'see for yourself' crap, because, we're obviously stumped why you'd ever make a statement like that.
[ T E L L U S W H Y ]
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So when when will they be modeling a PAC plane set??
Really? Guess I can't make it then :rolleyes:
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Still waiting for him to answer the question about who these "real pilots" who are in the beta test are..... :rolleyes:
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It's the 3rd time I've requested this information sling. He keeps dodging it.
Me thinks he either knows these supposedly real 109 pilots are simply full of it, or he's dillusional... either way he won't answer with their name and squadron they flew with.
-SW
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<S> Kweassa.
That was the most concise explanation of how the AH aircraft are modelled that I have ever seen, anywhere.
All in all a most considered and considerate reply.
Achttag.
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1.Alfred Ambs last JG7 with Me262,before he fly 3 Years a Bf109F,G,K
2.My Grandpa Adam Georg
http://pilotenbunker.de/ (http://pilotenbunker.de/)
:p
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Interesting... can't find Alfred Ambs' service record before JG7. 7 kills in the Me262 though.
As for your grandpa, this highlights his career in a 190D9 and Me262.. no 109? http://www.pilotenbunker.de/Jagdflieger/Luftwaffe/Adam_Georg/adam_georg.htm (http://www.pilotenbunker.de/Jagdflieger/Luftwaffe/Adam_Georg/adam_georg.htm)
-SW
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Originally posted by SWulfe:
Interesting... can't find Alfred Ambs' service record before JG7. 7 kills in the Me262 though.
As for your grandpa, this highlights his career in a 190D9 and Me262.. no 109? http://www.pilotenbunker.de/Jagdflieger/Luftwaffe/Adam_Georg/adam_georg.htm (http://www.pilotenbunker.de/Jagdflieger/Luftwaffe/Adam_Georg/adam_georg.htm)
-SW
My Granpa fly a Bf109 too,ok,i think he know it better than you ;)
But the FW190 is the same think with not real FM like the 109 in AH&WB.
And he flying this Games on my PC and i see it with my Eyes i can hear it what he say :)
Ok,thats it from my side,all what i want to say ia a warnted,and this what i do.
I donīt want talk over details,believe me you see and feel it when it is out on your PC.
cu
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I don't care much for the IL-2 FM, not being a pilot IRL I can't say which is more realistic - as a PC pilot I will say I prefer AH over IL-2.
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well, as long as you enjoy it, that's great. :) However, if I wanted to shoot at AI, I'd play Warbirds offline... :p
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How realistic can it be?
The tail wheel strut on a Bf109 is supposed to be RLM02 not shiny chrome.
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Originally posted by Possi:
And damn the FM from ww2online is not 100% real,but better than in AH and Wb too.I canīt believe it :(
This is not a joke!
WWIIOL FM better then WB or AH ?
You better stop smoking crack pal, it's bad for your health.
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Ski, I think I've found the entire reasoning behind his posting about IL2 being the best sim.
Quoted from him earlier up in this thread:
"yeah,Wardog you right with ww2ol i know itīs still too far from real,but flying itīs easy,and not like a stall Flyingsim"
Ah, so the planes in IL2 are EASY to fly, that's why you like it. The LuftWiener planes finally have a fleeting chance at victory!
Gotcha.
:D
-SW
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Originally posted by Possi:
I am a Betatester :)and we have a real Bf109 Pilot here,so he know whats going on and we talk with a lot Bf109 Pilots from WW2,but pls never thinks is 100% Vati :)but this not a question!
Not ment as a flame BUT :) ..........
WW2 Fighters had Bud Anderson as an advisor. I rest my case...
Udie
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Guys like Pongo should take a looka at their own game. I don't think i need to make a list here of faulty models, or?
But that may be freedom of art ;) So much for sitting in the glashouse, eh ;)
IL2 has a much bigger development team and they had a long time to make their stuff.
also you should never forget that you don't need to download a boxed version so graphics will never catch up for downloadable online only game versions.
It will be the new standard for box games and if they plan to do a MMP version (which is in plan if the game sells well) then they will set the standard there too.
From what i have heard from beta testers (WB and AH players) the FM feels very good and reasonable. Can't say anything about realism, but that most of you guys cant either :D
Macchi
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Udie apperently an interesting and very very sad thing about JanesWW2Fighters is that there was another FM developed before the games release. This came out in an interview of one of the games FM programmers after Janes/EA abandoned the game. This FM was supposedly a hardcore realistic type setup that was rjected by Janes/EA because they wanted a different market group or some such BS, and thats how we got the sad thing WW2Fighters is or better yet was.......
As an aside:
I played Janes WW2 Fighers Online for a good 2 years before coming to AH, in many ways the Jane's SpitfireIX FM is similar to the AH 1.04 Niki FM, so please consider that AH is not always that far removed from the Janes sim FM.
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Ya,
And dont forget that even the AH FM was dumbed down to fit the masses 1.03 - 1.04 transition :)
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I'm really amazed that you waste your energy bashing this 12-year old german troll..
He can't even write proper english and his comments are made deliberately to aggravate.. So why bother?
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I've been following IL2 since it was announced a LONG time ago and I've read literally every interview in English with Oleg. Although I've gotten a bit bored the past year reading the same old, same old preview/reviews on IL2.
In a nutshell every time someone who appears to have credentials asks Oleg why the "IL2" flight model feels so weak, arcadish and simple he always answers that it's either not done yet and is going to be re-worked before release or it's the controllers they have hitched up that are not working right.
Imo, IL2 has a challenging road ahead to knock EAW off the top perch as king of the box sims.
As for MMP? This is the only feature that could compete with an AW/FA/WB/AH game. But they can't even get the thing released after three plus years of developments and folks think they can just add in a huge feature like that in a snap? Keep dreaming.
Westy
[ 07-10-2001: Message edited by: Westy MOL ]
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy:
I'm really amazed that you waste your energy bashing this 12-year old german troll..
He can't even write proper english and his comments are made deliberately to aggravate.. So why bother?
Can you write German? :eek:
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Ripley läheskään kaikissa maissa englanti ei kuulu normaaliin opetusohjelmaan vaan on erikseen valittava aine kuten ranska tai venäjä suomessa.
Minkäs ikäinen muuten itse olet ?
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Possi, maybe you should read your NDA again.
It doesn't matter that you only write praises of the beta.
You don't know how the game will turn out at release.
To the rest I can say that I am trying to test the planes to the best of my knowledge,
questioning Oleg if I find something that isn't like I expect it to be.
If someone would like to just look at some screenshots instead of having (at current time) pointless FM-comparisons,
there was just release some hundred here (http://www.flightsimulator.de/il2/il2-first-look/firstlook.htm) (German site)
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Ltn. Snefens
RO, Lentolaivue 34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
My AH homepage (http://home14.inet.tele.dk/snefens)
(http://home14.inet.tele.dk/snefens/209.gif)
[ 07-11-2001: Message edited by: LLv34_Snefens ]
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1. If one plane is modelled more realistically then the other one, that would mean the numbers would be closer to real life. Without numbers that statement is pointless.
2. There are some planes for which feel can be modelled on computer beter then the other ones.
There is no way any user, even WWII Ace would ever feel the same flying PC as if he was flying a real plane with current joystick setup.
In fact Bf 109 is the worst plane in that respect. It had narrow cockpit and enormous stick forces - 40 pounds where P47 had 7 pounds.
So at high speed Bf 109 could outturn P47 but the pilot in Bf 109 could not outturn one in P47 just because he could not apply enough force to the stick to deflect the surfaces or move them as fast.
Because of that Bf 109 was much less maneuvrable then its characteristics would suggest.
Ace or no ace, what he feels flying Il2 or AH is definitely not close to what he would feel flying the real thing. Somewhat similar but maybe...
miko