Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Nilsen on October 17, 2005, 06:45:36 AM
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LOL
A russian trawler has taken 2 norwegian coastguard inspectors hostage after they uncoverd overfishing. They are going for international waters with the coastguard vessel following close behind.
There is a storm in the area. The russian government has been informed and are putting pressure on the fishing company to release them, but nothing so far.
I hope for their sake that they are released pretty damned quick.
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You got any of them Forsvarsnett types not in Afghanistan?
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Forsvarsnett?
Forsvarsnett is a monthly magazine :)
We have these standing by... will use helos tho
(http://www.marinejeger.no/images/bo-585x454.jpg)
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I hope your Coasties make it home safe..
..and your government closes the incident in the strongest possible terms.
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So you admit that these so-called "inspectors" were actually spies? Good.
Perhaps the Russians will not imprison them for 2 years and the fine you have to pay will be lower.
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The Russian Northern Fleet has now sent warships and aircraft to help the Tawler. 3 more Norwegian coastguard vessels have now joined in the persuit of the trawler.
The russians have ensured our government that they will not interfer with the Norwegian coastguards efforts to get their inspectors back.
Russian press has reported that the coastguard has fired on the trawler :rofl
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Damn war-mongering Norwegianians.
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No war for overfishing!
-SW
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
No war for overfishing!
-SW
No war for Fish Oil!!!
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waiting patiently for boroda's brilliant response.
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Originally posted by storch
waiting patiently for boroda's brilliant response.
They don't have internet on russian trawlers :p
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Oh I hope this leads to something similar to Clancy's "Red Storm Rising". I want to see some more good war footage with stuff 'splodin'!
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Originally posted by Nilsen
The Russian Northern Fleet has now sent warships and aircraft to help the Tawler. 3 more Norwegian coastguard vessels have now joined in the persuit of the trawler.
you mean russia still has ships that arn't rusting hulks and can go to sea?
your CG had better stand by , they may have to rescue the russian navy.
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I just hope the two coastguardsmen come out alive.. hope the trawler winds up impounded and the captain in jail fer about 50 years.
If those Coastguardsmen are killed, I'd rather see the trawler on the bottom and her skipper with it.
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Seems like something fishy is going on aboard that trawler.
Seriously though, I wonder if those two guys found something other than too many fish.
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The inspectors are in radio contact with thier own ship via _their own_ radios. They are not beeing treated badly but they will be kept onboard. The same trawler has been arrested by the norwegian coastguard before and the company it belongs to has had to pay hefty fines to get it back.
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Originally posted by Makarov9
Oh I hope this leads to something similar to Clancy's "Red Storm Rising". I want to see some more good war footage with stuff 'splodin'!
I want to see people with horned helmets making the stuff 'splode!
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I can't believe you won't share your fish with some poor hungry Russians. Not to mention the deliberate spying on their fishing techniques so you can bring your own fish fleets up to the latest technology.
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:D
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Nice looking trawler.. with any luck a breeze will sink it soon :rofl
(http://gfx.dagbladet.no/pub/artikkel/4/44/446/446678/traaler1.jpg)
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wrong picture, that is the pride of the russian navy sent to rescue the trawler.
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Originally posted by storch
waiting patiently for boroda's brilliant response.
I'm not Boroda, but I will answer.
1. Trawler was intercepted by Norwegian patrol in so-called Norwegian Fishguarding zone of Spitsbergen.
2. This zone is not Norwegian territory.
3. The regulations about borders of the given zone are accepted only by Norway. Other countries, including Russia, did not sign agreements on the given territory wich is by default the international waters.
4. As we know, intercepting the ship in the international waters is piracy.
5. If our authorities will arrest those inspectors they will go to court on charge in a piracy.
Any questions?
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Forgot to say. USA don't accept guarding zone too. So, you have time to delete your unpolite messages :-)
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What is over fishing? Just fishing too much past the limit?
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Trawler was inspected and caught cheating in the Norwegian economical zone. Even the Russian authorities knows and respects that. The russian media is reporting all kinds of strange things but thats not new. It is not unusal for Russian fishing ships to get caught and fined. Last time one was arrested was back in 2001.
Igor Dygalo who is the spokesperson for the Russian navy has said in public that the Russian navy will not interfer with attempts to get the inspectors back but are only going to follow the situation.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Trawler was inspected and caught cheating in the Norwegian economical zone.
Looks like you don't see difference between "economical zone" and "fishguarding zone". If you don't know, these things are different. The trawler was in "fishguarding zone".
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Originally posted by Estel
I'm not Boroda, but I will answer.
1. Trawler was intercepted by Norwegian patrol in so-called Norwegian Fishguarding zone of Spitsbergen.
2. This zone is not Norwegian territory.
3. The regulations about borders of the given zone are accepted only by Norway. Other countries, including Russia, did not sign agreements on the given territory wich is by default the international waters.
4. As we know, intercepting the ship in the international waters is piracy.
5. If our authorities will arrest those inspectors they will go to court on charge in a piracy.
Any questions?
So why did the trawler allow inspectors on board in the first place. Man, you are giving Russians the reputation of the worlds worst liars.
At least try and come up with a credible story next time estel.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
So why did the trawler allow inspectors on board in the first place. Man, you are giving Russians the reputation of the worlds worst liars.
At least try and come up with a credible story next time estel.
Because of due to agreement of cooperated using of Sptisbergen they should do it. And not only russian trawlers, but any others.
At least try to use search engines to find information. And try to learn international law. It will be very helpfull to you. Especially when you are trying to make such idiotical posts.
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Estel has a point tho.. There are unresolved issues regarding borderes up north and around Svalbard. They have been that way for many many years, but both governments have an agreement that things shal stay the way they are until a permanent agreement can be made.
The current confrontation is not between the 2 governments, but between the Norwegian government and the Russian trawler and the company that owns it.
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Originally posted by Estel
Because of due to agreement of cooperated using of Sptisbergen they should do it. And not only russian trawlers, but any others.
At least try to use search engines to find information. And try to learn international law. It will be very helpfull to you. Especially when you are trying to make such idiotical posts.
Ahh so the Russians did agree to the fishing zone then?
Why are you contradicting yourself?
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Originally posted by Estel
Because of due to agreement of cooperated using of Sptisbergen they should do it. And not only russian trawlers, but any others.
At least try to use search engines to find information. And try to learn international law. It will be very helpfull to you. Especially when you are trying to make such idiotical posts.
Yes.. International law says that Norway has the authority inspect uphold the law in this area. They inspect ships from all nations that fish there. They are basicaly the police that ensures that they do not use wrong nets to get fish that are below a sertain size and that they do not dump fish there.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Ahh so the Russians did agree to the fishing zone then?
Why are you contradicting yourself?
Did you use search engine? Looks no. Really sad.
Russia and Norway have agreement of cooperated using of Spitsbergen. For a lot of years. This is not only fishing. This is coal mines. This is other mining there. This is cooperated scince works and etc.
In 2001 Norway raised a problem. They denied the fishing in fishguard zone for all other participants in some seasons (really the seasons when you can make maximum fishing). In 2004 they denied fishing for Russia.
But. They can not deny or approve anything because of the agreement. And sure, they can not extrude any territory of Spitsbergen for their one (and alone) using. Because of Russia and other participants don't agree with Norway.
Is it clear to you? Or maybe I'll need to find info in english and send it to you?
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Yes.. International law says that Norway has the authority inspect uphold the law in this area. They inspect ships from all nations that fish there. They are basicaly the police that ensures that they do not use wrong nets to get fish that are below a sertain size and that they do not dump fish there.
I don't know, is it true, but.... Our media said that "Thromso" opened fire when "Elektron" was allready in 200 zone of Russia. What was said by your media about it?
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Viking pirates be a-boarding! Harrrr!
(http://logo.cafepress.com/4/96381.252534.jpg)
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Sorry for the bad map but in all the dark blue parts Norway is in charge of upholding international and Norwegian law. The company that owns the trawler may not agree, but your government does Estel so wha the company thinks about the situation really doesnt matter. They are to use a well known word... criminals.
(http://www.mil.no/multimedia/archive/00000/Kystvaktens_ansvarsomr_633a.jpg)
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Originally posted by Estel
I don't know, is it true, but.... Our media said that "Thromso" opened fire when "Elektron" was allready in 200 zone of Russia. What was said by your media about it?
KV Tromso has not fired warningshots yet.
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Nilsen, would you so please to translate the tips on the map.
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Fiskerisonen = fishery zone
Fiskerivernsonen = fishery protection zone
Norsk økonomisk sone = Norwegian economical zone
Internasjonalt farvann = international waters (the orange bit on the left'ish)
Gråsonen = gray area... were there are some disagreements (the gray bit on the right'ish)
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Originally posted by Estel
Did you use search engine? Looks no. Really sad.
Russia and Norway have agreement of cooperated using of Spitsbergen. For a lot of years. This is not only fishing. This is coal mines. This is other mining there. This is cooperated scince works and etc.
In 2001 Norway raised a problem. They denied the fishing in fishguard zone for all other participants in some seasons (really the seasons when you can make maximum fishing). In 2004 they denied fishing for Russia.
But. They can not deny or approve anything because of the agreement. And sure, they can not extrude any territory of Spitsbergen for their one (and alone) using. Because of Russia and other participants don't agree with Norway.
Is it clear to you? Or maybe I'll need to find info in english and send it to you?
So why did they let them on the boat then?
Make up your mind.
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The point is that ___both___ governments agree that the trawler has broken the law.
The trawler is running away because it does not want to be arrested so that the company that owns it has to pay a huge fine to get it back.
The unresolved issues regarding borders etc are _not_ relevant.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Fiskerisonen = fishery zone
Fiskerivernsonen = fishery protection zone
Norsk økonomisk sone = Norwegian economical zone
Internasjonalt farvann = international waters (the orange bit on the left'ish)
Gråsonen = gray area... were there are some disagreements (the gray bit on the right'ish)
Thanks alot. And.... Can you tell me one thing..... About Spitsbergen guard zone. It was established in 1977. As we know, USSR didn't agree with that. Now. Is it just fishguarding zone or it have economical zone status? Here I mean the point of Norway.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
So why did they let them on the boat then?
Make up your mind.
Oh my God...... Do you really so stupid or you are kidding?
Originally posted by Nilsen
Yes.. International law says that Norway has the authority inspect uphold the law in this area. They inspect ships from all nations that fish there. They are basicaly the police that ensures that they do not use wrong nets to get fish that are below a sertain size and that they do not dump fish there.
__________________
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add: P47N, ME410, Ju52, Emily, paddleblade for D11 and Beaufighter.
Trancend
Oversett dette!
Is it clear now?!
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Estel
It is a fishery protection zone. The norwegian economical zone streches out 200nm from _mainland_ Norway.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
The point is that ___both___ governments agree that the trawler has broken the law.
I didn't found anything about this in our media. Only I found, it's that this is not a problem of the goverment, but the problem of the trawler owner.
And there is nothing about our trawler made something unlawful. Maybe you will tell me what did they do? And also, maybe you'll tell, why patrol officers withdrawn ships journals and sailors passports? This is something new in inspectors practice.
Edit from here: Also they withdrawn the certificate wich allows to use the russian flag (guess Nilsen will give correct word) on the ship. And this is really strange to me.
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Originally posted by Estel
I didn't found anything about this in our media. Only I found, it's that this is not a problem of the goverment, but the problem of the trawler owner.
And there is nothing about our trawler made something unlawful. Maybe you will tell me what did they do? And also, maybe you'll tell, why patrol officers withdrawn ships journals and sailors passports? This is something new in inspectors practice.
As far as i have heard the size of the holes in the nets was too small so that they could get fish that was below minimum size. At first the captain agreed to the boat beeing taken under arrest, but the company sent him an order to not obey the coastguard and to head for russian waters with the inspectors onboard. I have not heard anything about journals or passports beeing taken, and that can because they have not or because it is standard prosedure when one is arrested.
ISTAR TASS gets all its info from the company that owns the trawler.
-edit- If I was arrested in Russia, or America for that matter I bet the police would take away my passport.. or?
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Originally posted by Estel
Oh my God...... Do you really so stupid or you are kidding?
Is it clear now?!
Are you schizophrenic?
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Originally posted by Nilsen
As far as i have heard the size of the holes in the nets was too small so that they could get fish that was below minimum size.
Let's stop here. Minimum size by the Fishguard agreement? "Could get". Did they get it? Or it's just an assumption?
At first the captain agreed to the boat beeing taken under arrest, but the company sent him an order to not obey the coastguard and to head for russian waters with the inspectors onboard. I have not heard anything about journals or passports beeing taken, and that can because they have not or because it is standard prosedure when one is arrested.
It is not standart. Also I posted about flag certificate.
-edit- If I was arrested in Russia or America for that matter I bet the police would take away my passport.. or?
If you are arrested on Russian territory, police can withdrawn your passport. But only for the time they will need to identify you. Not more then 3 hours. After that, if they didn't charge you and didn't arrest you (the same time), they must return the documents.
But trawler is not Norwegian territory. It's territory of Russia. So, nobody can withdrawn ship documents and sure personal documents.
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Estel.
So, it's understood that Norway has the right to board the boat, and that's why the trawler let them board? Is that correct?
Now explain why the trawler crew decided to kidnap them and sail off.
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I have not seen the charges against the Trawler.. All the news have said is that they are serious.
Dunno about any flag certificate. Nothing on the news here so it is either standard procedure or it has not happened.
The coastguard is following international law Estel. I am not a lawyer and I have not studied what to do in these situations. They have clear rules and to break them just to arrest a trawler that would later be released for lack of evidence would be a waste of their time and money.
All the info you get in this matter is from ISTAR TASS, and they get it from the Trawler or the company that owns it. Keep that in mind.
I repeat. The reason for the trawler to run for russian waters is to escape fines. I am willing to bet that if the matter is not settled before the trawler reaches Russian waters then the Russians that are now waiting for them will do it.
When criminals robs a bank it is also common for them to try to escape. Drivers that are caught speeding sometimes tries to outrun the police to.
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Originally posted by NUKE
Estel.
So, it's understood that Norway has the right to board the boat, and that's why the trawler let them board? Is that correct?
Yes.
Now explain why the trawler crew decided to kidnap them and sail off.
There are different rules of fishing. Trawler could use rules of agreement and patrol could use rules of Fisherguard zone. Anyway Norway has a right to check boat.
But the main question is: wich rules will they use. Officially patrol use the rules of Fisherguard zone. We use the rules of agreement. Officially patrol is right. And officially we are right. Due to our rules we have right to take the fish not depending on it size or anything else. Fisherguard zone rules said that we can not.
Why our trawler must be arrested?
International sea law says: in such situation, the ship should execute requirements of the other side. Also there written: the anlawful requirement can be omited.
Captain could start from the first. Execute and follow. Then he received radio-order. Now he is following the second rule.
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Estel, none of what you said explains why the trawler kidnapped those people. What right does the trawler have to detain anyone and then sail back to Russia.
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Originally posted by NUKE
Estel, none of what you said explains why the trawler kidnapped those people. What right does the trawler have to detain anyone and then sail back to Russia.
What right does the Tromso have to arrest the trawler?
What should they do? Send them back in escape boat? In current wheater conditions this will be a murder.
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I have not studied the rules of these areas, but kidnapping in not allowed in any civilized country and I belive that Russia is civilized.
I have no doubt that the coastguard had the right to detain the trawler and neither do the Russian or Norwegian governments.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
I have not studied the rules of these areas, but kidnapping in not allowed in any civilized country and I belive that Russia is civilized.
Read my post before. About escape boat.
I have no doubt that the coastguard had the right to detain the trawler and neither do the Russian or Norwegian governments.
Have the right only if there are lawful reasons.
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Originally posted by Estel
Read my post before. About escape boat.
Have the right only if there are lawful reasons.
There clearly are lawful reasons or they would not have been detained in the first place. The coastguard has enough to do, they don't detain trawlers to pass the time.
Hmm.. escape boat?
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Originally posted by Nilsen
There clearly are lawful reasons or they would not have been detained in the first place. The coastguard has enough to do, they don't detain trawlers to pass the time.
Hmm.. escape boat?
Escape raft? Don't know correct word.
The problem is that you see lawful reason from your, Norway side. And I see the situation from our, lawful side.
Both sides follow the rules. And both sides see their opponents like criminals.
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Wolfala said it's named life boat.
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EVerybody knows russian trawlers don't have lifeboats to stop defections.
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What I wonder, Nielsen, since I have seen the picture of that rusty trawler, what kind of boats Norwegian Coastguard is using to catch the trawler?
Why it takes so long, or the rusty trawler is steaming faster than Norwegian boats?
And how you gonna stop it? Shots over the bow? Ram? Eventually sinking it?
I'm really curious now.
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OK, here's my take on what went down - so far as possibilities.:
1. The usual Coast Guard safety inspection routine and they find contraband, i.e. stuff they shouldn't have, use your imagination, refrigerators, tv's, cars - so they panic and haul bellybutton out of dodge to prevent going through the usual crap of having the boat impounded again and bailing the Captain and everyone else out of the brig.
2. There was overfishing, knew it and were caught, panic'd with the CG guys still on, something went down - and hauled bellybutton out to sea anyway b/c of what went down and the usual blamegame ensues.
3. The same political bs played out again about economic exclusion zones and one party recognizing the rights of another's right to use those economic resources.
- Laws are only as effective as those enforcing them - and treaty's are the same way when methods of verification and compliance are effective.
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
Why it takes so long, or the rusty trawler is steaming faster than Norwegian boats?
Secret russian technology, the boats go twice as fast with half the hull weight rusted away ;)
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Secret russian technology, the boats go twice as fast with half the hull weight rusted away ;)
LOL
Guess Vikings caught the perp afterall
http://www.mosnews.com/news/2005/10/17/elektron.shtml
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Originally posted by Estel
Escape raft? Don't know correct word.
The problem is that you see lawful reason from your, Norway side. And I see the situation from our, lawful side.
Both sides follow the rules. And both sides see their opponents like criminals.
Give up Nilsen the Russian are right, allways right even when breaking local and international laws.
Estel except if you're compleltly dumb you cannot justify the kidnapping of 2 citizen especially when they didn't broke ANY law*.
Did the Norvegian broke any Norvegian/Russian/International law ?
Before answering take a 10min break and think about it.
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Originally posted by straffo
Before answering take a 10min break and think about it.
He can't, he needs to look up the answer in his Communist Party Doctrine And Standard Responses book.
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
What I wonder, Nielsen, since I have seen the picture of that rusty trawler, what kind of boats Norwegian Coastguard is using to catch the trawler?
Why it takes so long, or the rusty trawler is steaming faster than Norwegian boats?
And how you gonna stop it? Shots over the bow? Ram? Eventually sinking it?
I'm really curious now.
The coastguard are using 4 large and excellent vessels. They can easily overtake the trawler but there are 8-9 meter waves in the area and a full storm. If they wanted to get people onboard they could use helos. They are trying diplomacy before force.
If they want to stop it they will first fire warningshots across its bow and then ram it. They could also lower coastguard or special forces on it from helos. They could in extreme cases try to shoot at the engine room but that wont happen.
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These two and two more are in persuit..
(http://www.mil.no/multimedia/archive/00025/nordk_25945a.jpg)
(http://gfx.dagbladet.no/pub/artikkel/4/44/446/446762/kystvakt_klar.jpg)
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Originally posted by Wolfala
OK, here's my take on what went down - so far as possibilities.:
1. The usual Coast Guard safety inspection routine and they find contraband, i.e. stuff they shouldn't have, use your imagination, refrigerators, tv's, cars - so they panic and haul bellybutton out of dodge to prevent going through the usual crap of having the boat impounded again and bailing the Captain and everyone else out of the brig.
2. There was overfishing, knew it and were caught, panic'd with the CG guys still on, something went down - and hauled bellybutton out to sea anyway b/c of what went down and the usual blamegame ensues.
3. The same political bs played out again about economic exclusion zones and one party recognizing the rights of another's right to use those economic resources.
- Laws are only as effective as those enforcing them - and treaty's are the same way when methods of verification and compliance are effective.
Its number 2 with a twist. The company that owns the trawler gave it an order to head for russia. The captain had accepted the order from the coastguard to head for Norway but diverted after the order from its owner.
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Russian Media? Russian media says anything that could possibly make the government look bad?
Hopefully they move all the crew from the Trawler to the coustguard ship and then sink the freaking trawler.
Go my Norwegian Neighbours go!
Here is an update BTW (http://www.mosnews.com/news/2005/10/18/trawlerdevelop.shtml)
Looks like the Russian goverment admits to the Norwegians being right.
Of course they are right, they are Scandinavians.
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Update:
The trawler has nets that are designed to get fish below minimum size and the gadget that separates fish according to size after the net is taken onboard was disabled.
This is really beside the point.
The point still is that Norwegain coastguard personel are taken hostage by the crew on the trawler.
-edit- nice find Wilbus.
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VV Nilsen. All the rights are on Norweigians side, no matter how anyone decide to twist and turn on the whole matter.
The Russian trawler broke the law by using elegal materials, they then broke the law when they kidnapping two people, Coast Guard personel non the less.
I hope the Russian crew and the Russian trawler company gets what's coming for them.
Nilsen, är det på Nyheterna i Norge? Försökte kolla nyheterna i Sverige men de visar inget för tillfället. De internationella kanalerna verkar inte visa något heller.
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Yup its all over the news here Wilbus and has been since yesterday. Can't remember if there was anything on Sunday tho. I think both the Russian and Norwegain governments are trying to tone it down. They are in close contact both on diplomatic and military levels to get the trawler to "surrender". Over the last few years since the Kursk incident there has been a hotline between the Russian and Norwegian northern fleets to quickly resolve various incidents at sea.
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VV, Keep us posted please.
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Update:
Talks between both governments and the russian trawler has led to what will hopefully be a happy ending. When the trawler reaches Russian waters the coastguard people will be transfered to a Russian borderguard ship and they will be transported to shore and back to Norway.
After that we will see what action will be taken against the company that owns the trawler by both Russian and Norwegian authorities.
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"International law" is a hoot. Law by and for who? Recognized by what countries?
Sort of like going to war with a country and expecting the Geneva Convention rules to be followed and adhered to in a country that does not recognize these rule, nor claim to follow or recognize these rules.
When it comes down to it, you do what you feel have to do.
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Some nations actually respects international law Jackal1
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Some nations actually respects international law Jackal1
That`s exactly my point. Some DON`T.
It sort of makes the issue at hand null and void when the time comes.
"Some" being the key here.
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Originally posted by Jackal1
That`s exactly my point. Some DON`T.
It sort of makes the issue at hand null and void when the time comes.
So nobody should bother with them because some don't?
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Originally posted by Nilsen
So nobody should bother with them because some don't?
You can "bother with them" all you wish, but when you are involved in an event such as this it doesn`t help much.
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Originally posted by Jackal1
You can "bother with them" all you wish, but when you are involved in an event such as this it doesn`t help much.
In this event all nations involved follows internationl law. Its an individual that broke it and will be prosecuted by one or both nations. It is not a Russia vs Norway issue.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
In this event all nations involved follows internationl law. Its an individual that broke it and will be prosecuted by one or both nations. It is not a Russia vs Norway issue.
Ummmm Hmmmm. Sure they will. :)
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The radiogram from Elektron to Arctic Sea Administration said that Norwegians are dropping fire-bombs on the trowler, point guns at it, and that in case they will open fire - captain will try to ram them, and the crew will be rescued by another trowler that follows Elektron. They also say they make photos of attacks.
Looks like they think they are brig Mercury or steam-boat Vesta :D I hope they'll not end up like patrol-ship Tuman...
Nilsen, I have been to Murmansk in 1994, and was on board of a similar trowler, crew members told us that they always have two Norvegian fishing inspectors on board, who monitor fishing areas and other things. At that time such an inspector got $200 daily, more then the whole crew of the trowler in 1994. Maybe they mean that they hold such inspectors, not a landing party from coast guard? How did they get on board during a severe storm?
How could an unarmed crew of a trowler detain coast cuard officers? Are this officers chosen from pacifist gun-haters? I'll not be surprised if they simply sit with Russian sailors and drink ;) without understanding that they are "kidnapped".
Kidnapping is a severe crime here. They definetly will be under investigation when they'll return to Murmansk.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
The Russian Northern Fleet has now sent warships and aircraft to help the Tawler. 3 more Norwegian coastguard vessels have now joined in the persuit of the trawler.
The russians have ensured our government that they will not interfer with the Norwegian coastguards efforts to get their inspectors back.
Russian press has reported that the coastguard has fired on the trawler :rofl
Get out there on your boat and give us Live Coverage damnit!!!! Nilsen you could be the Walter Cronkite of Norway! :rofl
Karaya
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Originally posted by Jackal1
"International law" is a hoot. Law by and for who? Recognized by what countries?
Sort of like going to war with a country and expecting the Geneva Convention rules to be followed and adhered to in a country that does not recognize these rule, nor claim to follow or recognize these rules.
When it comes down to it, you do what you feel have to do.
Crawl back into your cave, violence is not always needed to get a point across. Jackal, you can be very juvenile at times. You having flashbacks of your adolescence again?
Karaya
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Crawl back into your cave, violence is not always needed to get a point across. Jackal, you can be very juvenile at times. You having flashbacks of your adolescence again?
Karaya
Are you dillusional or what?
Point to any mention of violence.
Reading lessons maybe?
YOU can be.........well......inept at times. :)
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Originally posted by Jackal1
Ummmm Hmmmm. Sure they will. :)
Yup an investigation is already underway and they havent reached port yet.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Get out there on your boat and give us Live Coverage damnit!!!! Nilsen you could be the Walter Cronkite of Norway! :rofl
Karaya
8-9 meter waves and a storm is abit much for my "dingy" but not a bad idea :D
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Yup an investigation is already underway and they havent reached port yet.
LMAO
Yep, it will be a long one I`m sure with no results other than one side saying this, the other side saying that and all resulting in nothing. :)
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Originally posted by Boroda
The radiogram from Elektron to Arctic Sea Administration said that Norwegians are dropping fire-bombs on the trowler, point guns at it, and that in case they will open fire - captain will try to ram them, and the crew will be rescued by another trowler that follows Elektron. They also say they make photos of attacks.
Looks like they think they are brig Mercury or steam-boat Vesta :D I hope they'll not end up like patrol-ship Tuman...
Nilsen, I have been to Murmansk in 1994, and was on board of a similar trowler, crew members told us that they always have two Norvegian fishing inspectors on board, who monitor fishing areas and other things. At that time such an inspector got $200 daily, more then the whole crew of the trowler in 1994. Maybe they mean that they hold such inspectors, not a landing party from coast guard? How did they get on board during a severe storm?
How could an unarmed crew of a trowler detain coast cuard officers? Are this officers chosen from pacifist gun-haters? I'll not be surprised if they simply sit with Russian sailors and drink ;) without understanding that they are "kidnapped".
Kidnapping is a severe crime here. They definetly will be under investigation when they'll return to Murmansk.
They boarded on saturday when the weather was better for a routine inspection. I have seen that they are _sometimes_ armed, but even if they was it sometimes is smarter to try diplomacy until there is no more hope. If things got really ugly they could just radio the coastguard vessels and tell them to get closer. They have survival suits on so they could jump overboard if the coasties had a RIB ready to pick them up.. Not the best solution in bad weather, but maybe better than shooting the Russian crew.
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Originally posted by Jackal1
LMAO
Yep, it will be a long one I`m sure with no results other than one side saying this, the other side saying that and all resulting in nothing. :)
If they don't comply they will loose their license to fish and that is more expencive in the long run than the fine. That boat has lost it before back in 2001. ;)
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Originally posted by Nilsen
If they don't comply they will loose their license to fish and that is more expencive in the long run than the fine. That boat has lost it before back in 2001. ;)
Once again ..Ummmmm Hmmmmmm. You have made my point. ;)
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Originally posted by Jackal1
Once again ..Ummmmm Hmmmmmm. You have made my point. ;)
what point is that?
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Originally posted by Nilsen
what point is that?
That boat has lost it before back in 2001.
An evident slap on the wrist which amounted to nothing in the long run.
I`m sure she was not moored for long.
The point being International law is just as good or bad as those who are involved. In some instances countries agree to such things, and follow them up to the point that it is not convinient to do so. In other words, it makes the whole thing useless and only represents a "feel good", totaly useless waste of time in the end if such countries decide to ignore them at any particular point.
Sure Russia is going to say "blah blah blah..we will take care of it" and Norwegian government will have their say also. At this point it has became one saying this, one saying that and nothing more. It will result in nothing and solve nothing. It most positively will be repeated again and will get the same or similar results......nothing.
At the point it became an "International incident", individuality or company issues were a mute point.
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Originally posted by straffo
Estel except if you're compleltly dumb you cannot justify the kidnapping of 2 citizen especially when they didn't broke ANY law*.
Tell me, what should do the trawler captain after receiving an order to return to Murmansk? Drop inspectors in the water? Stop the trawler so it can be hijacked? Send inspectors in life boats when the waves are 6-8 meters?
Kidnapping first of all assumes presence of mercenary interest (ÛÔ my understanding). Where do you see it here? Or you think that trawler crew will ask money for them?
If you don't know, goverment has offered another way. Counter-sub vessel "TVER" can approach trawler, pickup inspectors and deliver them to Norway. But Norway denied this offer. Why they denied?
Did the Norvegian broke any Norvegian/Russian/International law ?
Yes. In 1977. When they established Spitsbergen fisherguard zone. Denying any agreements of 1935 and 1947.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
He can't, he needs to look up the answer in his Communist Party Doctrine And Standard Responses book.
I don't remember did I tell you or not. I'm not a communist. And I wasn't. But your answers sometimes looks to me standart. For some western people.
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Originally posted by Wilbus
VV Nilsen. All the rights are on Norweigians side, no matter how anyone decide to twist and turn on the whole matter.
The Russian trawler broke the law by using elegal materials, they then broke the law when they kidnapping two people, Coast Guard personel non the less.
In the Nilsen's post was written, that there were equipment on the board. But never was said that it was used. I carry a gun, but it doesn't mean that I'm shooting pedestrians on the way to home.
And again about kidnapping. How can they deliver them back when the waves are 9 meters?
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Originally posted by Jackal1
An evident slap on the wrist which amounted to nothing in the long run.
I`m sure she was not moored for long.
The point being International law is just as good or bad as those who are involved. In some instances countries agree to such things, and follow them up to the point that it is not convinient to do so. In other words, it makes the whole thing useless and only represents a "feel good", totaly useless waste of time in the end if such countries decide to ignore them at any particular point.
Sure Russia is going to say "blah blah blah..we will take care of it" and Norwegian government will have their say also. At this point it has became one saying this, one saying that and nothing more. It will result in nothing and solve nothing. It most positively will be repeated again and will get the same or similar results......nothing.
At the point it became an "International incident", individuality or company issues were a mute point.
That "slap" on the wrist is extremly expencive. Loosing the license for even one season can be devestating.
The result will be a hefty fine and or no license to fish for the boat and maybe charges against the captain but time will tell. I doubt the Russians will protect the crew/captain/company if it is found guilty.
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Originally posted by Estel
In the Nilsen's post was written, that there were equipment on the board. But never was said that it was used. I carry a gun, but it doesn't mean that I'm shooting pedestrians on the way to home.
And again about kidnapping. How can they deliver them back when the waves are 9 meters?
1. It is illegal to have them onboard when fishing.
2. They could have allowed the coasties to leave the boat and the did not. That is called kidnapping.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
That "slap" on the wrist is extremly expencive. Loosing the license for even one season can be devestating.
And who is going to stop her from fishing? :)
I doubt the Russians will protect the crew/captain/company if it is found guilty.
Then the "feel good" part is bought hook, line and sinker. :)
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Originally posted by Nilsen
1. It is illegal to have them onboard when fishing.
This is said by Norwegian illegal fisherguarding zone agreement. If you remember, this is not international document. But only local. Hence, we have not to follow these rules. We are following the international agreements of 1935 and 1947.
If to follow your way, I can deny to breath in 10 meters of my house.
2. They could have allowed the coasties to leave the boat and the did not. That is called kidnapping.
To allow them leave the ship in the storm is equal of murder.
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Originally posted by Estel
To allow them leave the ship in the storm is equal of murder.
It's obvious that's NOT the reason they were held on board. They are hostages for the safe passage of the trawler back to Russian controlled waters.
Estel, yer propaganda mask is slipping.
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Originally posted by Estel
This is said by Norwegian illegal fisherguarding zone agreement. If you remember, this is not international document. But only local. Hence, we have not to follow these rules. We are following the international agreements of 1935 and 1947.
If to follow your way, I can deny to breath in 10 meters of my house.
To allow them leave the ship in the storm is equal of murder.
1. Nope.. they have to follow it and they do or else they will get brought in and they are. period. Not even the Russian government interfers cause they have accepted it until a permanent agreement is found. That will happen within the next 4 years.
2. It is kidnapping period. Stop twisting it. It is not murder to allow someone to be hoisted of a trawler in a helo.
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Originally posted by Jackal1
And who is going to stop her from fishing? :)
Then the "feel good" part is bought hook, line and sinker. :)
1. Coastguard
2. say what?
Let it go jackal ;)
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Originally posted by Hangtime
It's obvious that's NOT the reason they were held on board. They are hostages for the safe passage of the trawler back to Russian controlled waters.
Estel, yer propaganda mask is slipping.
Do you use "propaganda" term only when you have nothing to answer? Or this is just a bad habit.
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Just got last news.
Elektron is headed to White sea due to weather. There, on the water border he will meet with "Tver" and "Admiral Levchenko". After that, inspectors will be tranferred onto one of the warships. Due to agreement with Norway, inspectors will be delivered to Murmansk. After investigation they will be delivered back to the Norway.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
1. Nope.. they have to follow it and they do or else they will get brought in and they are. period. Not even the Russian government interfers cause they have accepted it until a permanent agreement is found. That will happen within the next 4 years.
Especially for your pleasure, I'll find documents of temporary agreement and send it to you.
2. It is kidnapping period. Stop twisting it. It is not murder to allow someone to be hoisted of a trawler in a helo.
I guess we will be surprised after investigation. Perhaps both sides.
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Estel, I'm not trying to mask hostage taking with apologist excuses.
Those coastguardsmen are hostages, plain and simple. At the time the Trawler decided to run for it, sea conditions were not a threat to the guardsman, and they could have been allowed to leave safely.
Had that happened, there would be no reason for the Norwegians to continue to pursue the trawler with multiple ships and aircraft (all now at risk in the current weather)... the could have simply fired across her bow and manuvered to block her advance out of the area... all without significant risk to life.
The actions of the trawler are criminal at best.
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And now something interesting....
Due to temporary agreement of the Spitsbergen fishgurading zone, Norway coast guard have right to check russian trawlers. But it never had right to make any punishments and sure they have no right to arrest the trawlers. PERIOD.
Official message from Federal Fishing Agency. Quoted from their interview given to radiostation "Echo of Moscow"
edit from here
So, if they violated their own agreement and tryed to illegaly arrest the trawler, the inspectors can be accused in piracy.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
1. Coastguard
Lmao
Who`s Coastguard? Norwegian CG seems to have gotten bogged down a bit, huh? :)
2. say what?
:) Ummmm Hmmmmmm.
Let it go jackal
Let what go? The truth? Is it interfering in how you wish things were instead how they really are. Naive.
Have you read any of Estel`s posts and gave them any consideration as to how they play in a situation like this? Not agreeing or disagreeing. I`m just saying there can be a spin put on any "International law/rule" if the need arises.
Hell, we all do it. Just a fact.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Those coastguardsmen are hostages, plain and simple. At the time the Trawler decided to run for it, sea conditions were not a threat to the guardsman, and they could have been allowed to leave safely.
.......
The actions of the trawler are criminal at best.
Look my last post. They must be happy that they are not under arrest. Norway coast guard has not right to arrest trawler.
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Update:
Now the inspectors have been told to stay onboard by the Coastguard to continue their job.
Boarding is now a real option to arrest the ship. It will be stopped by force if they have to. I bet special forces are getting ready.
The russians have sent a destroyer to keep the norwegian coastguard ships from entering Russian waters (they wont do that)
The "agreement" between Norwegian and Russain governments to get the inspectors off in Russian waters and returing them to Norway is not known by the Norwegian diplomats so this is a something that only the Russians have agreed to.
We have subs in the area.
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Look my last post. They must be happy that they are not under arrest. Norway coast guard has not right to arrest trawler.
Disagree. In the zone they patrol they DO have the right to detain and impound vessels found in violation of the fishing treaty.
And the Russians absolutey don't have the right to take Norwegian hostages.
Be glad I'm not the Norwegian Admiral in charge of that zone. Your trawler would have a 5" hole in her engine room and she'd be under tow to a Norwegian port with her captain in chains.
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Originally posted by Jackal1
Lmao
Who`s Coastguard? Norwegian CG seems to have gotten bogged down a bit, huh? :)
:) Ummmm Hmmmmmm.
Let what go? The truth? Is it interfering in how you wish things were instead how they really are. Naive.
Have you read any of Estel`s posts and gave them any consideration as to how they play in a situation like this? Not agreeing or disagreeing. I`m just saying there can be a spin put on any "International law/rule" if the need arises.
Hell, we all do it. Just a fact.
ok
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Different views from different countries and different news reported.
Posted by Estel
"Just got last news.
Elektron is headed to White sea due to weather. There, on the water border he will meet with "Tver" and "Admiral Levchenko". After that, inspectors will be tranferred onto one of the warships. Due to agreement with Norway, inspectors will be delivered to Murmansk. After investigation they will be delivered back to the Norway"
............................. ............................. .......
Posted by Nielson
"Update:
Now the inspectors have been told to stay onboard by the Coastguard to continue their job.
Boarding is now a real option to arrest the ship. It will be stopped by force if they have to. I bet special forces are getting ready.
The russians have sent a destroyer to keep the norwegian coastguard ships from entering Russian waters (they wont do that)
The "agreement" between Norwegian and Russain governments to get the inspectors off in Russian waters and returing them to Norway is not known by the Norwegian diplomats so this is a something that only the Russians have agreed to.
We have subs in the area."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
See my point now? :)
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There are disagreements yes Jakala... we know that ;)
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Originally posted by Nilsen
There are disagreements yes Jakala... we know that ;)
LOL
The different views put forth by the two countries is the point.
Yep, and they will be dealt with on an International incident level by one country to another with all viewing from the sidelines. Nothing will result but a bunch of hoopla to avoid making things more intense. :)
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Disagree. In the zone they patrol they DO have the right to detain and impound vessels found in violation of the fishing treaty.
But due to agreement they have signed, they do not have rights to detain or punish russian fishery ships. Not looking onto violations. This is the part of temporary agreement.
Be glad I'm not the Norwegian Admiral in charge of that zone. Your trawler would have a 5" hole in her engine room and she'd be under tow to a Norwegian port with her captain in chains.
Be glad, you are not norway sailor from norway trawler wich don't get 120mm holes in hull, when they are fishing in our economy zone. Usually they are dropping fish and running away to Norway territory. But you gave us a good learning. Now we will shoot them.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Update:
Now the inspectors have been told to stay onboard by the Coastguard to continue their job.
Do I understand you correct, that they are not hostages, because of they are receiving and following orders?
Sure you understand, that capturing russian ship in russian economy zone by any warship will not just cross points. This will be something worse.
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Estel, nothing would please me more than outright hostilities between Scandanavian republics and Russia over transgressions on the Scandanavian Fisheries. I'm certain of which side The EU and the US would come down on, and it ain't Russia we'd be backing up.
Check that map again.. those waters and the fish population there represents the economic health of Norway and Scandanavia.. that's their breadbasket you are encroaching on, overfishing and abusing. Those resources are Strategic as far as Scandanavia is concerned and this encroachment and abuse of treaty by Russia could be construed as a serious provocation.
I hope they kick your tulips all the way back to Murmask.
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And now another news.
from radiostation "Echo of Moscow"
When trawler began manuevering to establish course into Russian territory, inspectors was offered to leave the ship. But they denied it. They said that they have an order to stay on the ship. After that captain informed them again, that the trawler is headed to Murmansk. But inspectors denied again.
This information is confirmed by Norway goverment.
You guys missed up with "hostages".
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Originally posted by Estel
And now another news.
from radiostation "Echo of Moscow"
When trawler began manuevering to establish course into Russian territory, inspectors was offered to leave the ship. But they denied it. They said that they have an order to stay on the ship. After that captain informed them again, that the trawler is headed to Murmansk. But inspectors denied again.
This information is confirmed by Norway goverment.
You guys missed up with "hostages".
Frankly, I don't believe anything put out by Russian radio. They simply have ZERO credibility.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Frankly, I don't believe anything put out by Russian radio. They simply have ZERO credibility.
edit: The Captain of a vessel is the ultimate authority on board.. if those men are still aboard, it is because that's what he intended.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Estel, nothing would please me more than outright hostilities between Scandanavian republics and Russia over transgressions on the Scandanavian Fisheries. I'm certain of which side The EU and the US would come down on, and it ain't Russia we'd be backing up.
I expect karaya to be in any moment with the "violence" lecture. :)
I noticed he was unable to point out the violence reference in my posts in this thread, so you are IT. :)
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Update:
Now the inspectors have been told to stay onboard by the Coastguard to continue their job.
Boarding is now a real option to arrest the ship. It will be stopped by force if they have to. I bet special forces are getting ready.
The russians have sent a destroyer to keep the norwegian coastguard ships from entering Russian waters (they wont do that)
The "agreement" between Norwegian and Russain governments to get the inspectors off in Russian waters and returing them to Norway is not known by the Norwegian diplomats so this is a something that only the Russians have agreed to.
We have subs in the area.
Brilliant. I am impressed. Someone probably didn't play enough war games when he was a kid.
Maybe you are kidding? Do you think people in CG command can start a war because of several hundreed kilogramms of stinking sprats?
Where do they want to intercept Elektron? in White Sea?
Nilsen, don't you know if there were any Norvegian inspectors on board of Elektron?
It's all quite silly. Keeping "hostages" to avoid enemy fire is idiotic. Trying to start hostilities because of some "illegal fish" that probably isn't there at all is stupid. Trying to escape from trial at the cost of losing a license (they'll definetly lose it) is crazy. Following a violator into international waters to intercept it is a combination of impotence and idiocy. Imagining that patrol boat can do anything against Levchenko is wishful thinking. Sorry.
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Hell, Russia is still a country with a dictator only the population doesn't know it yet.
Ordered or not to stay onboard now, they were not ordered from the beginning when the trawler ran away.
Svalbard is norwegian territory.
So tell me Estel, if us Swedes refuse to recognise the fact that Russian rules say that we're not alowed to fish within Russian waters, should we ignore it and get away with it without consequences?
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Frankly, I don't believe anything put out by Russian radio. They simply have ZERO credibility.
Echo of Moscow is a local branch of Voice of America. They are 100% anti-Russian and pro-Western. "Voice of liberals and democrats", "Free radio for free people", etc.
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Hell, Russia is still a country with a dictator only the population doesn't know it yet.
Oh poor, poor me!!! Believe me, I have other things to worry about then to discuss if comrade Putin is a dictator. I don't ****ing care. As for me - we lived much better under "bloody communist regime".
Originally posted by Wilbus
So tell me Estel, if us Swedes refuse to recognise the fact that Russian rules say that we're not alowed to fish within Russian waters, should we ignore it and get away with it without consequences?
Can't you see the difference between "Norvegian waters" and "Waters where Norvegians want to control all fishing and other activities"? It's not even their economic zone, see Nilsen's map.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Check that map again.. those waters and the fish population there represents the economic health of Norway and Scandanavia.. that's their breadbasket you are encroaching on, overfishing and abusing. Those resources are Strategic as far as Scandanavia is concerned and this encroachment and abuse of treaty by Russia could be construed as a serious provocation.
Looks like you don't know.....
Ok, when in 1920 Norway annexed Spitsbergen, there began major discussions between Norway and Russia about using this land. In 1925 they established an agreement about cooperated use of the Spitsbergen. In 1947 it was corrected due to limitations of UN.
Now. In 1976, UN declared about right of every country to have 200 miles economical water zone. This zone should be 200 miles from _mainland_. In 1977, Norway declared 2 zones. One zone 200 miles north of mainland, and another one. 200 miles around Spitsbergen wich they named "Fisheryguard zone". Soviet Union signed agreement about first zone and denied agreement about second zone. In first, because of Norway don't have and never had rights to exclusive use of this place and in second, because of Soviet Union had fishery interests in that region.
By the way, maybe you don't know, but we have two towns on Spitsbergen.
Ok, let's continue. In 2001 Norway is denying season fishing for countries who do not participate an agreement of 1925/1947. For all others they created quotas. But norwey trawlers still fishing without any quotas and limitations. After that in 2004 they denyied fishing for russian trawlers. Only quotas. Maybe Norway forgot, but Spitsbergen is not official norway territory. It's still "under external control". And any limitations can be applyed only if all memebers are agree with that.
After 2004 there began serios problems for both sides. Russian trawlers began to be arrested and punished. The same was made the first time in the history for norway ships. After that, Norway offered temporary agreement of using fisherguard zone. Due to this agreement, Norway coast guard still can check russian trawlers, as it can do for all others in the region. But they can not punish them or arrest. Just control. The agreement was signed.
Another part of this agreement was about cooperated duty of our border guard ships in the region. For example, norway ships can be under the protection of russian border ships and vice versa. But here began strange situations, when our ship is on duty, Norway coast guard is not present in the region and all trawlers, russian and norway are feeling ok. Just our ship is living area, Norway coast guard beginning unlawful arrests and punishments.
So, this situation should be solved in 4 years due to agreement.
And norway trawlers still fishing without any quotas and limitations.
I hope they kick your tulips all the way back to Murmask.
Faith is a shelter of poor in Spirit.
Sure you can hope. If you think this will help you.
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Originally posted by Estel
Tell me, what should do the trawler captain after receiving an order to return to Murmansk? Drop inspectors in the water? Stop the trawler so it can be hijacked? Send inspectors in life boats when the waves are 6-8 meters?
Nice flawed argument.
Even the dumbest Russian sailor know the rules at sea I won't be surprised to discover in a nearest future that non ever called from Murmansk?
Kidnapping first of all assumes presence of mercenary interest (ÛÔ my understanding). Where do you see it here? Or you think that trawler crew will ask money for them?[/B]
You're wrong : http://www.answers.com/topic/kidnapping-legal-term
kidnapping, in law, the taking away of a person by force, threat, or deceit, with intent to cause him to be detained against his will.
Don't confuse the act with the motivation
If you don't know, goverment has offered another way. Counter-sub vessel "TVER" can approach trawler, pickup inspectors and deliver them to Norway. But Norway denied this offer. Why they denied?[/B]
Dunno.
But your governement should have arrested the captain of the trawler at least.
Yes. In 1977. When they established Spitsbergen fisherguard zone. Denying any agreements of 1935 and 1947. [/B]
I'm speaking of the 2 guys in board of the russian ship.
Not something else.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Frankly, I don't believe anything put out by Russian radio. They simply have ZERO credibility.
well I allways thought it was something like :
(http://www.terra.dti.ne.jp/~yymatsu/recording/HMV.jpg)
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Originally posted by Boroda
Oh poor, poor me!!! Believe me, I have other things to worry about then to discuss if comrade Putin is a dictator. I don't ****ing care. As for me - we lived much better under "bloody communist regime".
Did I say I wanted to discuss it? I know it is of no use. Communism has been proven flawed time over time again. It's not what this thread is about though.
Simple fact is still that the trawler broke the law, more then one law too.
Hopefully the Russian government will take action. If not, I hope the vessel will be taken care of if it ever brakes the rules again or enter Norwegian enconomic/fishing zones and/or Norwegian waters.
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Originally posted by straffo
You're wrong : http://www.answers.com/topic/kidnapping-legal-term
Don't confuse the act with the motivation
Yes, looks like I missed here. We have 2 different things "nezakonnoe lishenie svobody" and "zahvat zalozhnikov" Boroda will translate the terms.
But here we see, that they were offred to leave the trawler but denyied.
Dunno.
But your governement should have arrested the captain of the trawler at least.
Sure. Until investigation will end.
I'm speaking of the 2 guys in board of the russian ship.
Not something else.
Me too. They do not have legal rights to arrest the ship.
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Originally posted by Estel
Me too. They do not have legal rights to arrest the ship.
Perhaps ,but you can't condemn for a act they perhaps intended to do but didn''t have done ?
do you ?
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Originally posted by Estel
Yes, looks like I missed here. We have 2 different things "nezakonnoe lishenie svobody" and "zahvat zalozhnikov" Boroda will translate the terms.
"nezakonnoe lishenie svobody" - illegal deprivation of liberty (imprisonment).
"zahvat zalozhnikov" - taking hostages, probably not a correct transtation, in Russian meaning is combined with "taking for ransom".
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Originally posted by straffo
Perhaps ,but you can't condemn for a act they perhaps intended to do but didn''t have done ?
do you ?
No. They did it. They arrested the ship. Withdrawn all journals and personal documents. Also withdrawn flag certificate. And tryed to tow the trawler Norvegian port. But the cable was torn.
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Did I say I wanted to discuss it? I know it is of no use. Communism has been proven flawed time over time again. It's not what this thread is about though.
It's quite wise not to argue about things that you don't know.
Originally posted by Wilbus
Simple fact is still that the trawler broke the law, more then one law too.
They will be held under trial for what I have translated for Estel.
Originally posted by Wilbus
Hopefully the Russian government will take action. If not, I hope the vessel will be taken care of if it ever brakes the rules again or enter Norwegian enconomic/fishing zones and/or Norwegian waters.
I think their license will be definetly called back. Just for the trouble they made and enterntainment they provided to the Western public. whoopee brig Mercury, "We are about to sink but we'll not surrender" my ass...
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Originally posted by straffo
well I allways thought it was something like :
(http://www.terra.dti.ne.jp/~yymatsu/recording/HMV.jpg)
Opposite direction, human listening to dogs barking in case of Echo of Moscow.
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Norwegian plane tryed to stop "Elektron" by droping the net while overflying. But missed and catched another trawler "Arlashkin". "Arlashkin" lost the speed. The rescue ship "Purga" is headed to "Arlashkin" now. As was said by Border authorities, "Elektron" can achieve border at 0100am Oct 19.
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I think their license will be definetly called back. Just for the trouble they made and enterntainment they provided to the Western public. whoopee brig Mercury, "We are about to sink but we'll not surrender" my ass...
Explain? Mercury was an outstanding ship action by young Russian Captain on 20 gun Brig 150 years ago.. very proud moment for Russian Navy. The pride of this moment in old Tsarist history a modern problem for your Navy?
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And let loose the Dogs of War!!!
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-12/913818/nilsendog.jpg//)
(http://www.samugliestdog.com/images/Sammagnetweb.jpg)
Ohhh yeah......INexcusable!
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It's quite wise not to argue about things that you don't know.
Nothing to do about knowing or not knowing. It would just turn out to be another long lived boring discussion with arguments about who is right and who is wrong without any real answers.
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The captain of trawler Arlashkin is declaring that ship and crew is in danger.
As it known, norwegian plane dropped "delt" the net onto the Elektron but missed and catched Arlashkin. Trawler lost the speed. The main engine is stopped. The weather is nord-west 9, wave 4-6 meters. Wind 25-28 m/sec. The Mount Kent trawler wich is near Arlashkin can not evacuate the crew due to weather.
Yea guys. You are the best. Catched wrong ship and leaved her without help in the storm.
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So many trawlers, so little time.
:rofl
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Originally posted by AWMac
So many trawlers, so little time.
:rofl
Or maybe just so poor pilots?
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2 Nilsen
I'v found agreements from 1871 till nowadays. Perfect reading. Sorry, in russian only. But there are very interesting things.
First of all, I was wrong about jurisdiction. Yes, from Feb 9 1920 Spitsbergen is under Norway urisdiction. But. This jurisdiction based on equal rights of all participants. The rights of RSFSR for equal using of Spitsbergen confirmed by agreement of 1935. In 1925 Norway established Mountain agreement, Agreement of Spitsbergen and Spitsbergen law wich actually are confirming the Norway jurisdiction based on equal rights of all sides. Let's say it again. Based on equal rights of using and activities of all participants.
The interests of post-war USSR were confirmed by storting at Feb 15 1947.
The first violation of Paris agreement (1920) was made at Jan 15 1951, when Norway included the demilitarised territory of Spitsbergen into the NATO controlled territory.
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I go away for a couple of hours and there is 2 full pages of replies :O
No idea were to even start.. its 00:10 here... sum it all up Boroda/Estel and ill get at it tomorrow. By then there will be more news im sure.
First of all its confirmed. 3 "marinejeger" (SBS/SEAL type guys) have been flown out to one of the coastguard vessels.. What they are there for we can only speculate about. They are specially trained to board ships and oilrigs to release hostages, kill terrorists etc etc. Lets just say they are there to advice the coasties :)
Second... Russian and Norwegian authorities are in full agreement.. the trawler has broken the law and will be prosecuted.
Third... No Norwegian vessels will enter Russain waters.
Fourth.. Nothing in the news here about any nets beeing thrown from airplanes. Dunno if P3C aircraft usually bring fishing nets. I knwo they fly low but... ;)
Good night folks
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Man I wouldn't throw a net at those russian trawlers, they look so fragile something like estels bad breath would be enough to send them down to join the Kursk on the seabed.
Looks like the Russians have joined NK in being just another 3rd world country trying to steal food.
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Elektonic Supersonik. Long live fish race. Long live Russia.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Oh poor, poor me!!! Believe me, I have other things to worry about then to discuss if comrade Putin is a dictator. I don't ****ing care. As for me - we lived much better under "bloody communist regime".
I agree with that.
Cold War was good for the military of both countries...
Now since it has ended we have to do more with alot less.
Besides, that whole "nuclear threat" was just BS..neither country was/is stupid enough to use them.
It was good to have an "enemy" we could put a face on too, instead of a faceless enemy hiding in shadows and blowing things up at their will.
But I digress.
Regardless of wether Norway could arrest the ship or not, the Fishermen are not law enforcement people and CANNOT hold the Norweigans lawfully therefore no matter what the circumstances, they are/were (is this over now? to lazy to read the WHOLE thread) Hostages/kidnap victims.
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This is all obviously a cover story to save face over westerners defecting to the glorious east
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Originally posted by Estel
2 Nilsen
I'v found agreements from 1871 till nowadays. Perfect reading. Sorry, in russian only. But there are very interesting things.
First of all, I was wrong about jurisdiction. Yes, from Feb 9 1920 Spitsbergen is under Norway urisdiction. But. This jurisdiction based on equal rights of all participants. The rights of RSFSR for equal using of Spitsbergen confirmed by agreement of 1935. In 1925 Norway established Mountain agreement, Agreement of Spitsbergen and Spitsbergen law wich actually are confirming the Norway jurisdiction based on equal rights of all sides. Let's say it again. Based on equal rights of using and activities of all participants.
The interests of post-war USSR were confirmed by storting at Feb 15 1947.
The first violation of Paris agreement (1920) was made at Jan 15 1951, when Norway included the demilitarised territory of Spitsbergen into the NATO controlled territory.
So how many agreements were signed by the post-USSR government?
I'm sure you could go back to Roman times and find documents if you
wanted/had to. Doesn't mean they are valid now.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Man I wouldn't throw a net at those russian trawlers, they look so fragile something like estels bad breath would be enough to send them down to join the Kursk on the seabed.
Looks like the Russians have joined NK in being just another 3rd world country trying to steal food.
Always nice to have a true intellectual drop in and straighten things out for us mere mortals. :D
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Originally posted by Jackal1
Always nice to have a true intellectual drop in and straighten things out for us mere mortals. :D
Just fishing for cold war fossils, oh wait is this a fishery exlusion zone?
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I'm curious to see how much radio equipment this fishing trawler has on it.
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What I mean is that russian fishing trawlers sometimes carry surprisingly sophisticated radio equipment. Especialy those that like to play chicken with USN boats. Lol, an Elint trawler name Elektron.
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"The first violation of Paris agreement (1920) was made at Jan 15 1951, when Norway included the demilitarised territory of Spitsbergen into the NATO controlled territory."
Is that true?!?!?
***
Article 9
Subject to the rights and duties resulting from the admission of Norway to the League of Nations, Norway undertakes not to create nor to allow the establishment of any naval base in the territories specified in Article 1 and not to construct any fortification in the said territories, which may never be used for warlike purposes.
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/dfat/treaties/1925/10.html
-C+
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League of Nations ?
How can anybody be signatory to an organization that doesn't exist ?
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"Norway claims an exclusive fishing zone of 200 nautical miles; Russia does not recognize this."
http://www.answers.com/topic/svalbard
***
"Article 2
Ships and nationals of all the High Contracting Parties shall enjoy equally the rights of fishing and hunting in the territories specified in Article 1 and in their territorial waters.
Norway shall be free to maintain, take or decree suitable measures to ensure the preservation and, if necessary, the re-constitution of the fauna and flora of the said regions, and their territorial waters; it being clearly understood that these measures shall always be applicable equally to the nationals of all the High Contracting Parties without any exemption, privilege or favour whatsoever, direct or indirect to the advantage of any one of them."
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/dfat/treaties/1925/10.html
Now there is a thick soup... :p
Couldn't find the present day legistlation for use of fishing waters of Svalbard and I wonder if they resemble the old legistation at all?
-C+
"What I mean is that russian fishing trawlers sometimes carry surprisingly sophisticated radio equipment."
Have a tinfoil hat.
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Originally posted by Rino
So how many agreements were signed by the post-USSR government?
I'm sure you could go back to Roman times and find documents if you
wanted/had to. Doesn't mean they are valid now.
Russian Federation is a direct successor of the Soviet Union, and follows all the treaties and obligations accepted by the USSR.
JFYI, Russian Federation payed the debts made by Russian Empire, not only USSR, and we are a permanent member of UN SC, etc.
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Really charge a tinfoil hat? I didn't realize that elint fishing trawlers were such a complete rarity. Of course I was never in a Naval Intellgence Sighting Team so I wouldn't be privy to such information as you are.
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Originally posted by Boroda
JFYI, Russian Federation payed the debts made by Russian Empire, not only USSR, and we are a permanent member of UN SC, etc.
rotfl , certainly not !
It was more something like : you gave money to the tzar ,we give you a stamp ...used :D
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Originally posted by Suave
What I mean is that russian fishing trawlers sometimes carry surprisingly sophisticated radio equipment. Especialy those that like to play chicken with USN boats. Lol, an Elint trawler name Elektron.
This is what I thought could be one of the reasons for the whole comedy show.
-
So...anyone have any news links to this?
Did Gilligan kiss MaryAnn or what? :?
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Originally posted by straffo
rotfl , certainly not !
It was more something like : you gave money to the tzar ,we give you a stamp ...used :D
Straffo, in mid-90s Chernomyrdin's government payed hundreeds of millions to French obligation holders. It's a fact. If your grandma used her obligations as a wallpaper - it's her problem, not ours. At least we accepted this debts, while our "allies" in WWI simply kept the money that Russian Empire paid for weapons.
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There's nothing on CNN, USAToday, ect....about this. WTF?
:huh
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One interesting addition from 1920 agreement.
Article 10
Until the recognition by the High Contracting Parties of a Russian Government shall permit Russia to adhere to the present Treaty, Russian nationals and companies shall enjoy the same rights as nationals of the High Contracting Parties.
Claims in the territories specified in Article 1 which they may have to put forward shall be presented under the conditions laid down in the present Treaty (Article 6 and Annex) through the intermediary of the Danish Government, who declare their willingness to lend their good offices for this purpose.
This shows that we could use all of that without participation in agreement.
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Originally posted by AWMac
There's nothing on CNN, USAToday, ect....about this. WTF?
:huh
Maybe because all this bad smealing story wasn't true? And there wasn't any hostages. And maybe there were only inspectors impudent from impunity.
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Originally posted by Estel
Maybe because all this bad smealing story wasn't true? And there wasn't any hostages. And maybe there were only inspectors impudent from impunity.
LOL OUCH! The Commie propaganda machine is really moving on this one.
-
maybe CNN doesn't think another theiving hulk russian trawler is newsworthy.
Meanwhile a google news search on 'russian trawler' turns up about 20 stories on it.
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Love your signature Hangtime
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http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/10/19/norway.russia.reut/index.html
CNN report of it.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Straffo, in mid-90s Chernomyrdin's government payed hundreeds of millions to French obligation holders. It's a fact. If your grandma used her obligations as a wallpaper - it's her problem, not ours. At least we accepted this debts, while our "allies" in WWI simply kept the money that Russian Empire paid for weapons.
The debt was 160 Billion.
You gave back 2 bilion.
I'm sure I'll be in jail if I attempt to do this ...
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Originally posted by straffo
The debt was 160 Billion.
You gave back 2 bilion.
I'm sure I'll be in jail if I attempt to do this ...
Here we have the whole "democratic" government that made the same thing in 1991-93, only worse, who are now supported by EC politicians.
Russia paid debt to individual obligation holders, not to French state. AFAIK you sill didn't deliver some weapons that were pre-paid in 1915-16.
Again - read above about your Granny.
I am not an expert, I only have a bad habbit to remember useless information. :( Maybe I am wrong, please, correct me.
160 billion? Isn't it a little bit more then a whole French budget in 1913?
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Originally posted by Wilbus
LOL OUCH! The Commie propaganda machine is really moving on this one.
Did you read CNN news you posted here? Don't you think that it differs from the news they posted before? Or maybe it's just communist propaganda? Oops. Sorry, I forgot. You use "propaganda" term when you have nothing to answer... If you wanted just to raise up the discussion, you should use another way and words.
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2 Nilsen.
I got a question for you.
In 1947 USSR denied an offer to divide Border Guarding duty and Administration duty between Norway and USSR. So Norway did it all alone. Was it really hard work to establish these duties alone? Sure, you must understand, that USSR was ruined after the war. And didn't have money, personnel or anybody else to divide this work with Norway. How do you think, could this denying be a way to the problem of 1951 and when later, Norway issued problems for our fishers?
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Originally posted by Boroda
Here we have the whole "democratic" government that made the same thing in 1991-93, only worse, who are now supported by EC politicians.
Well I'm not in charge cause if I had been in charge not a single actual Russian politician would have survived :)
I think French and Russian politician are equal scumbag.
Russia paid debt to individual obligation holders, not to French state. AFAIK you sill didn't deliver some weapons that were pre-paid in 1915-16.
[/B]
I won't be very surprised it did happen.
Again - read above about your Granny.
[/B]
My granny was at this time more than happy to live in a free poland and certainly could'nt had been able to buy 0.1 obligation :D (she already had lot of trouble buying food )
I am not an expert, I only have a bad habbit to remember useless information. :( Maybe I am wrong, please, correct me.
160 billion? Isn't it a little bit more then a whole French budget in 1913? [/B]
Actual franc (ie Franc Constant), you need to divide this amount by 2,77606 to have the 1913 value
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Of course I read it Estel, I posted it here.
My commie propaganda answer was aimed at your silly reply before about the whole thing not being true.
Btw, you can't forget something you don't know. Now go listen to your radio again saying the whole thing is infact a lie and nothing of it is reallt true.
Don't care to bring up the discussion, don't wanna start a flame war.
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Not 100% safe for work (http://www.b0g.org/wsnm/news.php?artc=24098)
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Originally posted by Wilbus
My commie propaganda answer was aimed at your silly reply before about the whole thing not being true.
My answer was: Maybe it's true/Maybe it's not. Looks like you are reading only thing you want to read.
Btw, you can't forget something you don't know. Now go listen to your radio again saying the whole thing is infact a lie and nothing of it is reallt true.
But I remember. Always when you are headed to the truth (I don't mean you personally this time) wich is not good for you, there is beginning flame about propaganda and etc. Can I remind you a topic about KAL007, where was proved that USA shooted down the civilian planes with passengers more times even any country in the world. Do you remember what happened than? Why always when you see facts that don't correlate with your opinion of how-should-facts-be-because-I-seen-it-on-TV the discussion is dropping to usual flame with "propaganda" and "communists"?
For now I'm serfing the news sites and I'm finding very good things. For example, changing "hostages" onto another word. Not "crime" but "agressive reaction in situation".
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Russia has a history of seeing things in their own way. We finns know the best - after they pinned a war they started on us.
Nothing like repeating a lie untill it becomes the truth.
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BREAKING NEWS!
Apparently the Russian trawler is a cheap counterfeit with George Boosh at the helm! Rumour is the evil Boosh is trying to start a war between Norway and the glorious yet peace loving Russia.
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Originally posted by Estel
My answer was: Maybe it's true/Maybe it's not. Looks like you are reading only thing you want to read.
But I remember. Always when you are headed to the truth (I don't mean you personally this time) wich is not good for you, there is beginning flame about propaganda and etc. Can I remind you a topic about KAL007, where was proved that USA shooted down the civilian planes with passengers more times even any country in the world. Do you remember what happened than? Why always when you see facts that don't correlate with your opinion of how-should-facts-be-because-I-seen-it-on-TV the discussion is dropping to usual flame with "propaganda" and "communists"?
For now I'm serfing the news sites and I'm finding very good things. For example, changing "hostages" onto another word. Not "crime" but "agressive reaction in situation".
Maybe it's just your grammar, but there was a thread that "proved" the
US has shot down passenger aircraft more than any other country? Got a
link?
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Russian missiles do not shoot down civilian aircraft! Civilian aircraft choose poor flight paths which often cross test firing of russian missiles! Da?
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Russian missiles do not shoot down civilian aircraft! Civilian aircraft choose poor flight paths which often cross test firing of russian missiles! Da?
Incorrect. The missiles were trying to defect.
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Nope Estel I don't remmeber such a thread, I never saw it infact but I will take your word for it. I wouldn't be all that surprised if it's true either.
My answer was: Maybe it's true/Maybe it's not. Looks like you are reading only thing you want to read.
No it wasn't.
This was your answer before.
Maybe because all this bad smealing story wasn't true? And there wasn't any hostages. And maybe there were only inspectors impudent from impunity.
This is a totally different kind of answer. I read what you typed, not what I wanted to see. There is nothing in the above answer saying "maybe it is true maybe not" and nothing that implies it. The answer is a simple statement saying "this whole thing was a fraud".
If you did infact mean it in any other way I sugest you rephrase the answer quite a bit.
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The inspectors have now been freed and the trawler was put under arrest by the Russian borderguards. The inspectors gave the evidence over to the russian officials so that they can prosecute. A copy of the evidence is beeing brought back to norway with the inspectors.
I'll see if i can find some news in english that comes from somewere in the free world.
One from yesterday http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article1138023.ece
One from today http://www.norwaypost.no/content.asp?folder_id=1&cluster_id=28512
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Any norwegian internet news Nilsen?
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Should be on the frontpage of these:
http://www.vg.no
http://www.nrk.no
http://www.aftenposten.no
http://www.dagbladet.no
http://www.nettavisen.no
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Incorrect. The missiles were trying to defect.
Nyet. Russian missiles would never defect. If anyone was defecting the civilian aircraft were trying to defect to the innocent symbols of freedom - russian missiles.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
The inspectors gave the evidence over to the russian officials so that they can prosecute.
lol I'm sure they do.
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Originally posted by mora
lol I'm sure they do.
Its up to them I'm afraid. Can't do anything but hope they will keep it under arrest. The trawler won't be able to fish in these areas again. That trawler is considered the worst offender operating in these areas by both the Russian fishery department and the Norwegians. It has a looooooooong record and I belive even the Russians are fed up with that boat by now. If it is released and tries to go fishing again it will be monitored 24/7 and get special attention. I will then be forced to leave the area after photographic evidece has been obtained by plane, helo or ship.
There will be no inspectors on that boat next time if it tries again.
One interseting thing that the coastguard announced a few weeks back is that they would like to keep 2 Russian inspectors onboard every Norwegian coastguard ship that operates in these areas. They want this to solve language issues so that both sides can get the same eveidence and work together. Both the Norwegians and Russians are interested in this type of cooperation and hopefully the system will be inplace soon. Maybe the Russian trawlers are more cooperative if they get orders to leave from their own countrymen. It will speed up things and there wont be so much time wasted in communicating with Russian authorities since they will be on the same boat.
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And to clarify another thing..
I said in a previous post that they were not hostages, but ordered to stay onboard.
They were ordered to stay onboard for the trip back to arrest in Norway... not for the rest of the sightseeing tour the trawler took them on. They were therfore held against their will from the minute it deviated from its course to Tromsoe harbour. The coasties decided not to take command of the trawler due to the risk of their own men and the trawler crew in those heavy seas. Had the conditions been better it would have been boarded by crews that were standing by on one of the coastguard vessels.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
The inspectors have now been freed and the trawler was put under arrest by the Russian borderguards.
:lol
The inspectors gave the evidence over to the russian officials so that they can prosecute.
Bringing food home to Russia has always been a top priority on the prosecution list in Russia.
:rofl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
This seems to keep getting buried in the thought train.
The Russians have not recognized Norway's ruling of a protected fisheries zone around the Svalbard Archipelago, claiming it is international waters.
---------------------------------------------------------------
This is hilarious.....
The trawler was en route to Murmansk on Wednesday morning and Norwegian authorities said they would cancel their arrest order once the Russians had implemented their own
Translation: We were OWNED.:aok
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Rofl Jackal
:noid
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Good. She should be seized and the owners penalized heavily.
Overfishing has huge impact on fish populations. I applaud Norways defense of their food supply and economy. Watched the destruction of the Cod population on the Banks, the destruction of the Fisheries here in the North East... all because our governemnt moved way too late on agressively protecting the resources.
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Canada and Finland are so far the only countries supporting our claim for the 200nm _economical sone_ around Svalbard. I can understand why Russia won't. There are billions of dollars worth of resources in that area, in oil/gass and fish. There is an understanding tho that even Russia shares that Norway has the right and responsobility to protect these waters from overfishing and other forms of enviromental crime.
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Originally posted by Blostrupmoen
Every minute the Elektron is not fishing she's losing money and now she's not been able to fish for days, and being escorted to port.
LMAO
She had to head back to port to off load anyway. Geeez!
The fish in her hold will surly spoil before this is resolved, and she's even a legal liability for her owners. This is a disaster for the Elektron, her crew and her owners. So ... what's your point Jackal? [/B]
[/QUOTE]
If any fish was in the hold and I presume there were ,what makes you think they would spoil? Read above.
Disaster my posterior. :)
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Nice looking trawler.. with any luck a breeze will sink it soon :rofl
(http://gfx.dagbladet.no/pub/artikkel/4/44/446/446678/traaler1.jpg)
Good lord if I was on that fargin piece of floating rust I would beg to have any coast guard arrest me and take me of of it. They are some ballsy MOFOs to go to sea in that piece of crap.
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Nope Estel I don't remmeber such a thread, I never saw it infact but I will take your word for it. I wouldn't be all that surprised if it's true either.
After a dose of "communist propaganda" and other things the topic was deleted after my posts an ICAO materials about shooting down an "Aeroflot" plane by USA interceptor. There was a lot of facts. But. As usually it wasn't neccesary for somebody.
This is a totally different kind of answer. I read what you typed, not what I wanted to see. There is nothing in the above answer saying "maybe it is true maybe not" and nothing that implies it. The answer is a simple statement saying "this whole thing was a fraud".
If you did infact mean it in any other way I sugest you rephrase the answer quite a bit.
In russian, when you say "maybe" it's mean: "Maybe yes and maybe no". If in english it's not the same.... Than it's my fault.
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Originally posted by icemaw
Good lord if I was on that fargin piece of floating rust I would beg to have any coast guard arrest me and take me of of it. They are some ballsy MOFOs to go to sea in that piece of crap.
Don't cry, this can is not the baddiest one.
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Phhhffffffffft!
Yea right! :)
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No Propaganda, Estel? Lets just take your posts outta this thread as an example.
3. The regulations about borders of the given zone are accepted only by Norway. Other countries, including Russia, did not sign agreements on the given territory wich is by default the international waters.
4. As we know, intercepting the ship in the international waters is piracy.
5. If our authorities will arrest those inspectors they will go to court on charge in a piracy.
Propaganda.
Next:
Forgot to say. USA don't accept guarding zone too.
Propaganda.
Next:
Looks like you don't see difference between "economical zone" and "fishguarding zone". If you don't know, these things are different. The trawler was in "fishguarding zone".
And tell me Estel.. is it not Norway that does the fishguarding, to protect the area from illegal fishing procedures?
Propaganda.
Next:
There is nothing about our trawler made something unlawful.
Propaganda. (i'm being kind. looks like a bald faced lie to me)
Next:
(From Boroda) The radiogram from Elektron to Arctic Sea Administration said that Norwegians are dropping fire-bombs on the trowler, point guns at it, and that in case they will open fire - captain will try to ram them, and the crew will be rescued by another trowler that follows Elektron. They also say they make photos of attacks.
I guess Boroda’s a bit better at propaganda than you are. Really Estel, you must do better to come up to this level of entertainment. ;)
Next:
Be glad, you are not norway sailor from norway trawler wich don't get 120mm holes in hull, when they are fishing in our economy zone. Usually they are dropping fish and running away to Norway territory. But you gave us a good learning. Now we will shoot them.
Propaganda. Boastful, but still..
Next:
When trawler began manuevering to establish course into Russian territory, inspectors was offered to leave the ship. But they denied it. They said that they have an order to stay on the ship. After that captain informed them again, that the trawler is headed to Murmansk. But inspectors denied again.
Propaganda.
Next:
Another part of this agreement was about cooperated duty of our border guard ships in the region. For example, norway ships can be under the protection of russian border ships and vice versa. But here began strange situations, when our ship is on duty, Norway coast guard is not present in the region and all trawlers, russian and norway are feeling ok. Just our ship is living area, Norway coast guard beginning unlawful arrests and punishments.
I doubt seriously the Norwegians consider themselves ‘protected’ by anything flying a Russian flag. And vice versa.
Propaganda.
Next:
No. They did it. They arrested the ship. Withdrawn all journals and personal documents. Also withdrawn flag certificate. And tryed to tow the trawler Norvegian port. But the cable was torn.
She was never under tow, no documents were removed from the vessel.
Propaganda.
Next:
Norwegian plane tryed to stop "Elektron" by droping the net while overflying. But missed and catched another trawler "Arlashkin". "Arlashkin" lost the speed. The rescue ship "Purga" is headed to "Arlashkin" now. As was said by Border authorities, "Elektron" can achieve border at 0100am Oct 19.
Now, this is ALMOST as good as Boroda’s Propaganda. Better, but still..
Propaganda.
Next:
The captain of trawler Arlashkin is declaring that ship and crew is in danger. As it known, norwegian plane dropped "delt" the net onto the Elektron but missed and catched Arlashkin. Trawler lost the speed. The main engine is stopped. The weather is nord-west 9, wave 4-6 meters. Wind 25-28 m/sec. The Mount Kent trawler wich is near Arlashkin can not evacuate the crew due to weather. Yea guys. You are the best. Catched wrong ship and leaved her without help in the storm.
No better, really.
Just more of the same… PROPAGANDA.
Next:
(from Boroda) Russian Federation is a direct successor of the Soviet Union, and follows all the treaties and obligations accepted by the USSR.
JFYI, Russian Federation payed the debts made by Russian Empire, not only USSR, and we are a permanent member of UN SC, etc.
You see, Boroda is the Master.. one line of truth, always followed by the propaganda lie.
Next:
Maybe because all this bad smealing story wasn't true? And there wasn't any hostages. And maybe there were only inspectors impudent from impunity.
Poor try.
Propaganda.
Next:
In 1947 USSR denied an offer to divide Border Guarding duty and Administration duty between Norway and USSR. So Norway did it all alone. Was it really hard work to establish these duties alone? Sure, you must understand, that USSR was ruined after the war. And didn't have money, personnel or anybody else to divide this work with Norway. How do you think, could this denying be a way to the problem of 1951 and when later, Norway issued problems for our fishers?
Circular logic mixed with Propaganda.
Next:
But I remember. Always when you are headed to the truth (I don't mean you personally this time) wich is not good for you, there is beginning flame about propaganda and etc. Can I remind you a topic about KAL007, where was proved that USA shooted down the civilian planes with passengers more times even any country in the world. Do you remember what happened than? Why always when you see facts that don't correlate with your opinion of how-should-facts-be-because-I-seen-it-on-TV the discussion is dropping to usual flame with "propaganda" and "communists"?
This ones my favorite. A propaganda re-direct of propaganda to redirect responsibility for….
..Propaganda. ;)
Thanks for playing Estel!
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Íó è êàêèì õóåì íàäî õóÿ÷åòü ïî ýòîé õóéíå? Õóé ñ íåóâàæàåìûìè õóÿðèêàìè è âñå.
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yup.
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Hangtime Boroda was at least partly right about that debt payment thing - russia has paid finland some of the decades old debts soviet union trade left us with. They say they seriously aim to make the payments (finally).
Which would be only right considering we paid our post war penalties. In full.
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The coastguard and i belive also the 2 inspectors are now holding a press conferance. When one of the papers prints it out I will post the main things when all the facts are out.
Btw.. Estel... NO nets were dropped. The trawler that reported it prolly got tangled up in its own gear or it was false info put out by the company that owned it.
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Maybe because all this bad smealing story wasn't true? And there wasn't any hostages. And maybe there were only inspectors impudent from impunity.
"Maybe" doesn't mean "Maybe yes Maybe no", "maybe" means "maybe". In this case your "maybe" pretty much says "this whole story was a lie". You make a statement, a clear statement that the whole thing was a lie. You should have formulated (whatever you wanted to say) in a very different way if you wanted to sound like "maybe yes maybe no".
So a Russian Aeroflot plane was shot down by US interceptors? (If I understood it right?). So what? There was a Swedish DC3 and shortly after a Catalina SAR plane shot down by Russian interceptors over international waters in 1952.
But you know what? That's got nothing to do with this thread, neither does the "other" post or discussion you pointed at.
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Originally posted by Wilbus
[BThere was a Swedish DC3 and shortly after a Catalina SAR plane shot down by Russian interceptors over international waters in 1952.
[/B]
Those aircraft were spying illegally on the glorious soviet union! The russian trawler was sent to rescue the crews, unfortunately the paperwork was late in getting through due to a poor designed teletype machine the soviet union sto...err... borrowed from the inferior amerikans!
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Russians are acually some of the finest and most hospitable people I have ever met. Too bad so many of them still see the world from a 1970's perspective. Must be propaganda from the past that still lingers in the back of their minds or some kind of pride.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Btw.. Estel... NO nets were dropped. The trawler that reported it prolly got tangled up in its own gear or it was false info put out by the company that owned it.
At least finnish media is reporting of a net dropped by chopper.
Although the captain of Arlashkin should've knew better than tailing a ship which is being pursuited by warships.
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Originally posted by Fishu
At least finnish media is reporting of a net dropped by chopper.
Although the captain of Arlashkin should've knew better than tailing a ship which is being pursuited by warships.
They are prolly quoting either the Russian trawler or the company that owns it. I'm sure the Helo crew knew if they had thrown a net or not.
The CG decided to not board, ram or stop the trawler in any way because of the risk in the heavy seas.... why would they then try to stop it with a net in the very same heavy seas? It would seriously endanger the trawler, its crews and the CG personel if it could not manuver in those conditions.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
They are prolly quoting either the Russian trawler or the company that owns it. I'm sure the Helo crew knew if they had thrown a net or not.
The CG decided to not board, ram or stop the trawler in any way because of the risk in the heavy seas.... why would they then try to stop it with a net in the very same heavy seas? It would seriously endanger the trawler, its crews and the CG personel if it could not manuver in those conditions.
30 minutes ago I had to listen an interview of Norway CG admiral....
He confirmed that Norway CG ships made few shots crossing course of the trawler. Also he said that dropping the net from helo's or plane is a normal pratice to stop the boat in the sea. And they used it many times against norway fishing boats.
Now the main part. Norway side has not given any proofs of fault of crew of a trawler.
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Originally posted by Estel
30 minutes ago I had to listen an interview of Norway CG admiral....
He confirmed that Norway CG ships made few shots crossing course of the trawler. Also he said that dropping the net from helo's or plane is a normal pratice to stop the boat in the sea. And they used it many times against norway fishing boats.
Now the main part. Norway side has not given any proofs of fault of crew of a trawler.
You better hire some new translators or replace your news crews..
What "shots crossing course of the trawler"?
Yes... It is normal practise to drop nets or use lines to stop Norewgian fishingboats IN GOOD WEATHER.
We have given ALL the evidence to the russians and are prosecuting from this side of the bprder too.
Here is a picture taken onboard of Elektron of nets with 80mm holes... too small
(http://www.vg.no/bilder/bildarkiv/1129895128.24552.jpg)
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Ok Hang, let's begin......
quote:
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3. The regulations about borders of the given zone are accepted only by Norway. Other countries, including Russia, did not sign agreements on the given territory wich is by default the international waters.
4. As we know, intercepting the ship in the international waters is piracy.
5. If our authorities will arrest those inspectors they will go to court on charge in a piracy.
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Propaganda.
Canada and Finland? Only 2 from 39?
quote:
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Forgot to say. USA don't accept guarding zone too.
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Propaganda.
Just a fact.
quote:
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Looks like you don't see difference between "economical zone" and "fishguarding zone". If you don't know, these things are different. The trawler was in "fishguarding zone".
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And tell me Estel.. is it not Norway that does the fishguarding, to protect the area from illegal fishing procedures?
Propaganda.
This fishguarding is unlawful. A fact.
quote:
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There is nothing about our trawler made something unlawful.
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Propaganda. (i'm being kind. looks like a bald faced lie to me)
But Norway still can not issue any proofs.
quote:
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Be glad, you are not norway sailor from norway trawler wich don't get 120mm holes in hull, when they are fishing in our economy zone. Usually they are dropping fish and running away to Norway territory. But you gave us a good learning. Now we will shoot them.
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Propaganda. Boastful, but still..
Just facts.
quote:
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When trawler began manuevering to establish course into Russian territory, inspectors was offered to leave the ship. But they denied it. They said that they have an order to stay on the ship. After that captain informed them again, that the trawler is headed to Murmansk. But inspectors denied again.
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Propaganda.
Confirmed by inspectors in interview.
quote:
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Another part of this agreement was about cooperated duty of our border guard ships in the region. For example, norway ships can be under the protection of russian border ships and vice versa. But here began strange situations, when our ship is on duty, Norway coast guard is not present in the region and all trawlers, russian and norway are feeling ok. Just our ship is living area, Norway coast guard beginning unlawful arrests and punishments.
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I doubt seriously the Norwegians consider themselves ‘protected’ by anything flying a Russian flag. And vice versa.
Propaganda.
Only facts. In 2001 our borderguard ships were there all of the time.
quote:
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No. They did it. They arrested the ship. Withdrawn all journals and personal documents. Also withdrawn flag certificate. And tryed to tow the trawler Norvegian port. But the cable was torn.
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She was never under tow, no documents were removed from the vessel.
Propaganda.
Nothing to say. You can see it on your TV.
quote:
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Norwegian plane tryed to stop "Elektron" by droping the net while overflying. But missed and catched another trawler "Arlashkin". "Arlashkin" lost the speed. The rescue ship "Purga" is headed to "Arlashkin" now. As was said by Border authorities, "Elektron" can achieve border at 0100am Oct 19.
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Now, this is ALMOST as good as Boroda’s Propaganda. Better, but still..
Propaganda.
Confirmed by Norway CG admiral. Confirmed by Arlashkin captain. Confirmed by Elektron crew. Confirmed by the crew of another trawler who didn't leave them without help in the storm.
quote:
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The captain of trawler Arlashkin is declaring that ship and crew is in danger. As it known, norwegian plane dropped "delt" the net onto the Elektron but missed and catched Arlashkin. Trawler lost the speed. The main engine is stopped. The weather is nord-west 9, wave 4-6 meters. Wind 25-28 m/sec. The Mount Kent trawler wich is near Arlashkin can not evacuate the crew due to weather. Yea guys. You are the best. Catched wrong ship and leaved her without help in the storm.
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No better, really.
Just more of the same… PROPAGANDA.
Official radiomessage.
Ask somebody what does it mean, to stay without main engine in the storm. BTW, leaving the ship without help in the storm is crime. But CG did it.
Only facts.
quote:
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In 1947 USSR denied an offer to divide Border Guarding duty and Administration duty between Norway and USSR. So Norway did it all alone. Was it really hard work to establish these duties alone? Sure, you must understand, that USSR was ruined after the war. And didn't have money, personnel or anybody else to divide this work with Norway. How do you think, could this denying be a way to the problem of 1951 and when later, Norway issued problems for our fishers?
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Circular logic mixed with Propaganda.
Only facts.
..Propaganda.
Thanks for playing Estel!
So, so, so. What do we have? Looks like only the liar who cannot correctly issue own at all, poor ideas.
Take a time. Take a book and read it. Hope it will help you. And sometime you will understand what is propaganda. And I hope you'll understand what is the power of facts also.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Here is a picture taken onboard of Elektron of nets with 80mm holes... too small
(http://www.vg.no/bilder/bildarkiv/1129895128.24552.jpg)
Sorry, but there is no ruler near the net. So nobody can say, what is the real size. There is no court wich will accept something like this.
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Debating this any further is pointless... Everyone else seems to accept it.
Have a nice day :)
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Sorry, but there is no ruler near the net. So nobody can say, what is the real size. There is no court wich will accept something like this.
And if there was a ruler the next claim would be that the ruler is out of scale. :D
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Originally posted by Estel
Sorry, but there is no ruler near the net. So nobody can say, what is the real size. There is no court wich will accept something like this.
And each and every post is getting more desperate and pathetic.
They should have sank the freaking trawler and done it fast before anyone could've taken pictures of the POS sinking. I mean, without any pictures the Norwegian CG couldn't have been held responsible. They might have been held responsible if there was a ruler in the pictures though...
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
And if there was a ruler the next claim would be that the ruler is out of scale. :D
No. There are rules how to collect proofs. As I understand, they are the same in the world.
The next claim is: Norway has no right to establish fisherguard zone. So if they want to punish somebody for overfishing, big or small sized nets or something else, they are welcome. But only for their own citizens. And also for Canadians and Finns. All who accepted this zone. Their agreement with unlawful zone is their own business. If they want to play with these rules they are welcome. But I want to let them play alone.
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Translated: Russia will not follow any rules except its own. International treaties will be followed solely when they benefit mother russia.
Nothing has changed since the soviet times. I'm not surprised though. :lol
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Originally posted by Wilbus
LOL OUCH! The Commie propaganda machine is really moving on this one.
JFYI: there is no more "commie propaganda" for 15 years now.
But you guys don't know it. I LOVED it when Hortlund described 1808 war with Sweden: "And then Soviets attacked us!" :D
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Russia has a history of seeing things in their own way. We finns know the best - after they pinned a war they started on us.
Nothing like repeating a lie untill it becomes the truth.
Quite funny to hear such things from a country that still believes that two defeats in1940 and 1944 were their victories :D
Yes, we see things in our own way, not in someone esle's. It's a shame if Finns don't see things in their own way.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Canada and Finland are so far the only countries supporting our claim for the 200nm _economical sone_ around Svalbard.
Hmm. If you spend some money on publicity - I am sure that Australia, NZ and Tuvalu will support your claim.
So far Svalbard is under mutual control, isn't it? Why didn't USSR declare it a Soviet economical zone? Estel, please, correct me if I am wrong.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Translated: Russia will not follow any rules except its own. International treaties will be followed solely when they benefit mother russia.
Nothing has changed since the soviet times. I'm not surprised though. :lol
Let's imagine. You and three your neighbours are participating in agreement. The rules are: all of you can leave own car on the parking.
Now. One of the neighbors is closing half of the parking. Not looking on the agreement. And denying you to park your car there due to outstanding reasons. What will you do? Perhaps you will go to the judge. And you'll show him an agreement.
I showed you an agreement. Russia have right to fish there. And Norway do not have right to deny it. Period.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Russians are acually some of the finest and most hospitable people I have ever met. Too bad so many of them still see the world from a 1970's perspective. Must be propaganda from the past that still lingers in the back of their minds or some kind of pride.
Thanks. The problem is that we understand that Russia has it's own interests. This simple fact is almost brainwashed away in our strange times :(
I know about Norvegian assistance that is sometimes vital for our Northern regions.
That's why I am really upset about this idiotic story. There was stupidity and incompetence on both sides :(
Estel really opened my eyes on some facts. As far as I saw - you didn't provide any answer to the documents he quoted here. I don't like some foreign forces arresting Russian trawlers, and I'll not be glad if Russian Northern Fleet will have to escort fishing boats, but I hope that common sence will be used and the conflict will be solved for mutual benefit.
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Originally posted by Estel
Let's imagine. You and three your neighbours are participating in agreement. The rules are: all of you can leave own car on the parking.
Now. One of the neighbors is closing half of the parking. Not looking on the agreement. And denying you to park your car there due to outstanding reasons. What will you do? Perhaps you will go to the judge. And you'll show him an agreement.
I showed you an agreement. Russia have right to fish there. And Norway do not have right to deny it. Period.
It's useless to appeal to logics in such cases. Everyone knows that Russians are not human and don't deserve anything more then concentration camps.
In the same case when Americans fish in Russian economical zones in Far East - it's OK. God bless Shevardnadze.
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Estel, Norway is not denying Russian access to the fishery. Norway is enforcing illegal fishing PRACTICE.. over fishing and using nets that destroy or capture fish that have not grown large enough to breed. This kind of fishing destroys a fishery.
But you'll never get it. Nils is correct.. have a nice day, and thanks for playing.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
You see, Boroda is the Master.. one line of truth, always followed by the propaganda lie.
Hang, we do pay Russian Empire's debts, and it's a fact. How about several hundreed thousand 1891 three-line rifles that were paid by the Empire and never delivered or stolen from Russian ports by American intervention forces in 1918-20?
/*BTW, the whole story of Russian rifles produced in USA in 1915-17 is amazing. All I can say is "And this people want to teach us capitalism!"*/
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Estel, Norway is not denying Russian access to the fishery.
Really? Ok. In 21-22 October, in Norway there will be commitie meeting. They will try to distribute fishing quotas. Interesting thing, from year to year Norway is taking more and more quotas. Why? Legal question. I want to know it too. Also I'm interested of how much quotas will take Norway now and how much all others.
It is not a work to save fish. It's not needed. Only we can see, is that Norway becoming fishery monopolist. Take statistics and look onto fish production grade from 1987. It's amasing. Production raised up only after applying new restrictions and regulations. It's good to every country to protect own interests. But please, don't do it at someone's else expence.
Norway is enforcing illegal fishing PRACTICE.. over fishing and using nets that destroy or capture fish that have not grown large enough to breed. This kind of fishing destroys a fishery.
But you'll never get it. Nils is correct.. have a nice day, and thanks for playing.
Illegal? Illegal is wishful thinking. And using quotas and restrictions to raise own market.
Yes, I'll never get, why somebody can violate the international law to estimate own interests.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Estel, Norway is not denying Russian access to the fishery.
Quotas issued by one side is not denying access to fishery?!
Look, in 1990 Soviet foreign minister Shevardnadze (yes, a Georgian dicator overthrown by "democratic revolution" two years ago on American money) gave up Soviet economical zone in Far East. American side ratified that "agreement" quickly and American now fish in Russian waters. USSR didn't ratify this treaty and now Russia withdrew from it, and started a criminal case against Shevardnadze. Any news about American trawlers arrested by Russian border guards and towed to Russian ports? No? And it's absolutely legal economical zone, 100km from Russian main land, not from Kuril islands or Aleutes. And Svalbard is under mutual control until one side will remove it's settlements and economical objects. We have coal mines there and two towns. Why is it Norway issuing quotas there? Any sane reason except "All your base are belong to us"?
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Any sane reason except "All your base are belong to us"?
Talking to you guys is like talking to wood.
We've seen what happens with unrestricted fishing here on the Grand Banks.
Norway's efforts to preserve the fishery, restrict the number of fish taken and control the size of fish taken is in fact a good thing. But you'll never admit such sound practice as anything other than a political insult..
so consider yerselves insulted.
;)
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It's useless to appeal to logics in such cases. Everyone knows that Russians are not human and don't deserve anything more then concentration camps.
Well as far as concentration camps goes I am pretty sure you guys take care of that (ok, took care) of that yourselves so you really should know.
Russia has a history of seeing things in their own way. We finns know the best - after they pinned a war they started on us. Nothing like repeating a lie untill it becomes the truth.
I once heard a Finn say "The Russian is evil, he will come again". I think that pretty much sums it up, specially from a country who has lived as neighbours for a long time.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Talking to you guys is like talking to wood.
Talking to you guys is like argueing with a radio. Ever got drunk enough to try asking you radio to sing along? ;)
Originally posted by Hangtime
We've seen what happens with unrestricted fishing here on the Grand Banks.
Norway's efforts to preserve the fishery, restrict the number of fish taken and control the size of fish taken is in fact a good thing. But you'll never admit such sound practice as anything other than a political insult..
so consider yerselves insulted.
;)
Russian fishing fleet can't make any serious inpact on fishery resources. All I see is economical struggle. Just as any other "nature protection", "ecology", "frankenstein food", "greenpeace" or whatever.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Quite funny to hear such things from a country that still believes that two defeats in1940 and 1944 were their victories :D
I challenge you to find a quote from this board written by a finn that claims this. And after you can't find one, apologize.
You sir are a liar.
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Russian fishing fleet can't make any serious inpact on fishery resources. All I see is economical struggle. Just as any other "nature protection", "ecology", "frankenstein food", "greenpeace" or whatever.
Hell even small countries like Sweden and Denmark can (are having) have an impact on fish resources, You have to be either ignorant or stupid to think the Russian fishing fleet can't.
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Quite funny to hear such things from a country that still believes that two defeats in1940 and 1944 were their victories
We're not talking russian yet. Which can't be said about any other country you attacked in WW2.
Any questions?
The way I see it our victory was the moment we chose to take a stand against a 100-times larger enemy at desperate odds.
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The Finn's done good. Finland! Way to stick it to Stalin!
:aok
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While all this was going on the coastguard arrested four other ships in the area.. two Russian and two Scottish. All four are now in arrest.
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Damn schottish pillagers! Er.. surely this is another conspiracy of the Norwegian government which will eventually lead to the extinction of the scottish breed. The whole outside world is scheming against the scots who have been living inside their closed society for a few decades now.
Watch out, the scots are known to shoot down any craft or aeroplanes spying their borders. :lol
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
We're not talking russian yet.
You have missed much :)
I heard that already almost all Finns speak English and soon it will be entirely English-speaking country. So what is difference. :)
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Originally posted by Nekto
You have missed much :)
I heard that already almost all Finns speak English and soon it will be entirely English-speaking country. So what is difference. :)
English is alot easyer to learn. :)
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Lol Nekto the answer is obvious to anyone who spends 2 days in russia and 2 days in the west. Centralized leadership combined to communism is the worst thing that ever happened to a country in the history of man kind. Not to mention ethnic/political cleansing that was rampant during Stalin time and even later.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Lol Nekto the answer is obvious to anyone who spends 2 days in russia and 2 days in the west. Centralized leadership combined to communism is the worst thing that ever happened to a country in the history of man kind. Not to mention ethnic/political cleansing that was rampant during Stalin time and even later.
Ah... I thought you are against the language itself... Sorry for offtopic.
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Originally posted by Wmaker
I challenge you to find a quote from this board written by a finn that claims this. And after you can't find one, apologize.
You sir are a liar.
It's strange that you ask for such things.
Here it goes:
Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
We're not talking russian yet. Which can't be said about any other country you attacked in WW2. Any questions?
The way I see it our victory was the moment we chose to take a stand against a 100-times larger enemy at desperate odds.
Thanks, MrRiplEy[H] ;)
Sorry, can you give me examples of "countries that we attacked in WWII" and who's talking Russian now?
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Lol Boroda youre such a fool. You can lose a battle (or two) but win the war. We never came a part of the soviet union and that in itself is a victory. We fought and paid a heavy price. Paid it in full despite being unreasonable in any concievable means.
You wanted examples? Our neighbour Estonia chose not to fight. What happened to them?
Poland? Latvia?
I know people from all those countries and none of them support that 'legal agreement' propaganda you're trying to spew here. They all hate your guts for what your country did to them.
I'm just happy I don't have to hate you for that.
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Did Estonians or Latvians speak Russian? They were not attacked. They were allowed to join USSR after absolutely legal democratic procedure. Blame democracy. More to say, huge ammounts of money were spent on their cultural debvelopment, money that were literally taken from my poket, so they had state-sponsored books in national languages, national theatres and cinema, all the things they lost after they withdrew from the Union.
Do you seriously think that in March 1939 anything could stop USSR from occupying Finland? If only your democratically elected government had some common sence and agreed to lend Hanko in 1939 - the whole war could be avoided. It's another question, and I already said my attitude many times.
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For Russian speaking people, another masterpiece by Koshkin at Military-Historical Forum: http://vif2ne.ru/nvk/forum/archive/1060/1060743.htm
I spilled my beer all over my keyboard reading it :D
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Boroda as previously stated that democracy exists only in your propaganda books. You dealt the baltic in the Molotov-Rippentrop agreement with Nazi Germany. Several countries were annexed with the exclusion of Finland who put up a fight.
Why is that Boroda? Why didn't we get annexed like the other Baltic countries?
Which part of this (http://history1900s.about.com/library/holocaust/aa072699.htm) example of 'the western view' speaks about democratic decisions? Rofl!
You're still a comedy gold Boroda. I'd laugh harder if I didn't know you believe in that stuff.
From wikipedia:
On September 17, 1939, the Soviet Red Army invaded the eastern regions of Poland. The Soviets were acting in co-operation with Nazi Germany, carrying out their part of the secret appendix of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact (the division of Europe into Nazi and Soviet spheres of influence), which secured Hitler's right flank, and allowed him to concentrate on attacking the Allies, without worrying about Soviet Russia to the east. In view of this unexpected Soviet aggression, the Polish government and its high command decided that the defence of the Romanian bridgehead was no longer feasible and ordered the evacuation of all troops to neutral Romania. By the beginning of October, Germany and the Soviet Union had completely overrun Poland.
Know what Boroda? This makes Soviet Union a direct nazi ally.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Why is that Boroda? Why didn't we get annexed like the other Baltic countries?
Old Russian joke:
Two cowboys are talking in a saloon.
First: "Have you heard the news? The Uncatchable Joe was seen around the town!"
Second: "Really? Is he really uncatchahable? Nobody could really catch him ever?"
First: "Nah. Nobody really cared to"
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If you didn't care, why lose tens of thousands of men on our frontier?
If you didn't care, why did you annex all those other countries written down in the very same Ribbentrop-Molotov agreement?
Shows quite a discontent on your population to waste thousands and thousands of men on to something you don't care about. :eek:
Why were the first troops back in 1939 carrying banners celebrating the liberation of Finland? :huh
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Finaly USSR got what she asked.
Finland was given an offer of territory excange. There was no demand to join USSR at the first place. First stage of the war was almost catastrophic that's truth. The war could be avoided had Finns agreed to accept the offer.
I think that offer was fair given the fact that Finland was a hostile neighbour (http://www.lib.helsinki.fi/elektra/sumkare.html) dreaming about Greater Finland. Finland once already declared war on Soviet Russia in 1918 and occupied part of Soviet teritory and then after treaty many times Finnish paramilitary troops invaded us. So there was a serious fear that in the future great war Finland would join anti-Soviet coalition.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Know what Boroda? This makes Soviet Union a direct nazi ally.
Let's do not touch USSR this time. The direct nazi ally was Finland. Or you forgot this heroic moment? Or you forgot finnish concentration camps near Petrozavodsk?
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Finland was a nazi ally. USSR wasn't.
Go read that so-called "secret protocols". Then look on the map. Think a little. Try to grok what's wrong :D /*I do know what's the trick, but reading the actual "document" may be really eye-opening for people who turn on their critical thinking for the first time*/ Hint: "Northern border of Lithuania".
I understand that you are protecting that so-called "baltic states" because if USSR didn't take them in 1940 - then nazis could use them as a beach-head against Leningrad, so Finns could remain in Karelia in case USSR lost a war.
I admit that Finnish war was an act of aggression committed by USSR, but you have to understand that all Soviet pre-war politics was aimed at survival.
"Наша ближайшая задача - сделать всех..." (с) И.В. Сталин
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Can you please close this one Skuzzy?
It has been hijacked, and the issue it adressed has been solved.
Thank you. :)
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Can you please close this one Skuzzy?
It has been hijacked, and the issue it adressed has been solved.
Thank you. :)
Aaaaa, don't spoil the song!!! ;)
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Start a new thread.... its really easy. ;)
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Start a new thread.... its really easy. ;)
A sticky "Finns vs Russians" thread? ;)
It's funny that we already made things clear, but there are as usual some "fighters for democracy against Evil Communist Regime (tm)" ;)
Back to the topic: there was nothing in our media about other 4 Russian trawlers arrested. Or maybe I didn't watch news carefully enough?... All this issues become only a matter of public entertainment in the news, I don't know if it is good or bad...
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Originally posted by Boroda
A sticky "Finns vs Russians" thread? ;)
It's funny that we already made things clear, but there are as usual some "fighters for democracy against Evil Communist Regime (tm)" ;)
Back to the topic: there was nothing in our media about other 4 Russian trawlers arrested. Or maybe I didn't watch news carefully enough?... All this issues become only a matter of public entertainment in the news, I don't know if it is good or bad...
Two Russian ships. One trawler and one of those ships that takes the catch from trawlers and freezes/stores it for transport to harbour so that the trawlers can keep fishing. Then there was two Scottish trawlers.
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Originally posted by Boroda
It's strange that you ask for such things.
First, MrRipley posted his comment AFTER my post.
Second, he never said we won the war itself.
Keep looking liar.
But I agree with Nilsen, this thread should be closed.
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Originally posted by Boroda
It's funny that we already made things clear, but there are as usual some "fighters for democracy against Evil Communist Regime (tm)" ;)
:huh I'm certainly not one of them. My signature slightly differs :D
(well... it must be unclear... it's a bit anti-feministtic. 'Dima' is transliteration of my diminutive name, and 'the man' is me too)
Although sorry for offtop... couldn't help it :)
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So lets see.. Soviet union makes a non-agression pact with nazi germany and then proceeds to invade _several_ countries in co-operation with nazi germany.
SU is not a nazi ally.
Finland gets attacked by the very same country based on dividence of interest on a written agreement with nazi germany. Finland fights back and later is forced to co-operate for war materials.
Finland is a nazi ally. For what? Having a defensive war?
What you russians should learn first is that nobody believes that c*ck and bull you're trying to spread anywhere outside your borders.
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Please take it somewere else..
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Another two Russian ships were arrested today.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Another two Russian ships were arrested today.
Yes. And "Captain Gorbachev" with 11 (eleven, ) inspectors onboard denyed their arrest order due to it illegality.
edit from here:
Sorry, forgot to say. They didn't fish. They were reloading the fish from one trawler to another ship. The formal reason to arrest is: they didn't notice us about it.
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Originally posted by Estel
They didn't fish. They were reloading the fish from one trawler to another ship. The formal reason to arrest is: they didn't notice us about it.
Thats what they do to avoid paying taxes for all of their cargo.
Trawlers are among the worst corrupted areas in the russian industry and they're doing many things to avoid paying taxes to the russian government.
Loading fish from one ship to another... reporting the origin of fishes to be something else than in reality...
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Hush Fishu.. Tax evasion and falsifying documents is the rule not the exception in russia. If everyone does it it can't be illegal right? :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Fishu
Thats what they do to avoid paying taxes for all of their cargo.
Trawlers are among the worst corrupted areas in the russian industry and they're doing many things to avoid paying taxes to the russian government.
Loading fish from one ship to another... reporting the origin of fishes to be something else than in reality...
Really don't know what to say. But I don't think that the reason is tax payment. Because the second ship was fish-processing factory.
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Originally posted by Estel
Yes. And "Captain Gorbachev" with 11 (eleven, ) inspectors onboard denyed their arrest order due to it illegality.
edit from here:
Sorry, forgot to say. They didn't fish. They were reloading the fish from one trawler to another ship. The formal reason to arrest is: they didn't notice us about it.
They were moving fish from trawler to cargo ship without reporting it. That is done to avoid using your quotas. Illegal and is just another way of overfishing.
What the Russian AND any other boat from whatever nation does when they cheat is to ruin future income for themselves and others.
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Make a donation today.
http://www.victimsofcommunism.org/
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While the horrors of Nazism are well known, who knows that the Soviet Union murdered 20 million people?
Фтопку.
Do you really want me to donate to this....? :rofl
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Why not, you sure sound like a victim.
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Originally posted by Suave
Why not, you sure sound like a victim.
No. Looks like you are victim. The ghost of communism victim. If you know, what does it mean.....
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I remember when i was a kid. There was a show on the local radio on saturday nights. The topic was.. "This week in Pravda" They translated and made abit fun of the Soviet news. Basicly every week was... Production is up!, victory on all fronts!. :p
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Originally posted by Nilsen
I remember when i was a kid. There was a show on the local radio on saturday nights. The topic was.. "This week in Pravda" They translated and made abit fun of the Soviet news. Basicly every week was... Production is up!, victory on all fronts!. :p
Yes it was. Every morning, just waked up you are switching on "wire-radio". One-channel loud-speaker to listen "Pionerskaya Zor'ka" the special radio-program for school-children. Getting breakfast and going to school. After the supper - "Vriemya" The Time and "Mezhdunarodnaya Panorama" The international panorama on TV. And ****ing ****... There wasn't commercial plugs in films.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
I remember when i was a kid. There was a show on the local radio on saturday nights. The topic was.. "This week in Pravda" They translated and made abit fun of the Soviet news. Basicly every week was... Production is up!, victory on all fronts!. :p
Depended on a newspaper. Every paper had a special target group. We subscribed to: Pravda (Father was a Party member), Krasnaya Zvezda (Red Star , military newspaper, he was also an officer), Izvestiya (less biased paper) Literaturnaya Gazeta (a "humanitarian" weekly for "inteligensia"), then some monthly magazines from literature like Noviy Mir or Oktyabr' to Nauka i Zhizn' (Science and Life).
Most popular newspaper was Trud (Labour), "proletarian" newspaper, "everything made simple". My Grand- Aunt always subscribed to Pionerskaya Pravda, paper for school-children, two issues weekly, it always had all political issues made easy, so a 12-years old kid could understand everything.
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Originally posted by Boroda
all political issues made easy, so a 12-years old kid could understand everything.
If it was placed into USA context, it would make such an oxymoron statement. Kids here are evolved around the next dress they will wear or something equally unintelligent. Sigh.
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Originally posted by Russian
If it was placed into USA context, it would make such an oxymoron statement. Kids here are evolved around the next dress they will wear or something equally unintelligent. Sigh.
As you remember, "a kid is a mirror of his parents". Nothing to add.
À õóëè òóò äîáàâèòü.
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Originally posted by Estel
As you remember, "a kid is a mirror of his parents". Nothing to add.
À õóëè òóò äîáàâèòü.
Indeed, now enjoy your freedom of democracy, wait that’s not it….that’s oxymoron too, enjoy your democracy.
Äà ÿ ïðîñòî õóÿ÷ó…