Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: lazs2 on October 18, 2005, 08:50:48 AM
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Just watched the movie... really good. Not what you would expect. It was a positive piece on America and a positive piece on what good documentary style could and should be. It did trash moore tho... but it tried to do it honestly..
The guy really hated moore and fought the temptation (not allways successfuly) to do a moore like hatchet job... he was best when he was looking at the positive sides of America and you could see that he was most unhappy when he was tempted to the dark side.
Throughout.... Penn... from Penn and Teller was his mentor... Penn had some really interesting insights on dishonesty... good enough to buy the movie right there..
Seems odd to say but... the movie was a very positive movie.
for those of us that hate moore... there was plenty of catching him in huge whoppers by interviewing the people moore had in his movies and finding out what really went on.
World famous documentary movie maker was also a key figure in the movie.... he and Penn were the real stars.
lazs
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I loathe Michael Moore and will never watch a single "film" of his.
Karaya
PS - IN!
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This movie was not by moore... it was about him by a guy named Wilson who really dislikes moores dishonesty.
You could watch the movie and revel in the parts that made moore look like the liar and hypocrite that he is but... you would miss some of the really good stuff in it.
lazs
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I hate michael moore but never saw that movie. i might have to look into it.
I wish i could meet mike moore to punch him in the face. This country might be a total mess and have a tard for a president but if you don't support it even at it's worst you can just get the hell out. that's what michael moore should do...get the hell out :D
Documentarys are the most underrated kinds of movies. I love em. saw Fahrenheit 9/11 and thought it was a bunch of BS. now the doof is making fahrenheit 9/11 1/2. He is begging for an arse kicking :mad:
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Originally posted by lazs2
This movie was not by moore... it was about him by a guy named Wilson who really dislikes moores dishonesty.
You could watch the movie and revel in the parts that made moore look like the liar and hypocrite that he is but... you would miss some of the really good stuff in it.
lazs
lazs, I understand completely what you are saying. With Michael Moore, I just deny him any attention. I'll never watch a movie by him, or about him.
I wasn't slamming you in any way bud. <> bro.
Karaya
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Moore effects me this much, and so I can't get up enough desire to bring hate to him. Haven't watched any of his movies, don't care to.
As a matter of fact, I had completely forgotten about him until now.
-SW
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Ignorance will keep you in the dark. This is the problem I have with people in this country, you won't listen to the opposite side. By saying you won't ever pay attention to him to completely deny his opinion and listening to a diffrent side of the story. There are multiple facets to every story that goes on, choosing to listen to just 1 will get you in trouble eventually.
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If you like Penn, be sure to watch Penn & Teller's Bull****.
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Moore effects me this much, and so I can't get up enough desire to bring hate to him. Haven't watched any of his movies, don't care to.
As a matter of fact, I had completely forgotten about him until now.
-SW
he doesn't affect me either, i have seen some of his movies and bowling for columbine was decent but his views on our country make me want to kick him in the nuts. I haven't thought of him untill now and will stop thinking about him after this thread is gone but if someone asks me what i think of him it will be "he is a doosh and i hate him"
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Originally posted by nirvana
Ignorance will keep you in the dark. This is the problem I have with people in this country, you won't listen to the opposite side. By saying you won't ever pay attention to him to completely deny his opinion and listening to a diffrent side of the story. There are multiple facets to every story that goes on, choosing to listen to just 1 will get you in trouble eventually.
It's not a matter of being closed minded. Rather, its a matter of giving something it's due respect. MM deserves no ones respect since he has none for anyone else.
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Originally posted by megadud
his views on our country make me want to kick him in the nuts.
Hmmm... what views are those? AFAIK, he's critical of Bush, critical of the NRA, and critical of corporations.
Maybe it's just me, but I think there is more to our country than this.
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fine! then i want to kick him in the nuts because i don't like him, happy? :furious
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I saw him on BBC a in the end of 2000 or first part of 01. I didnt know who he was either. Was just an unshaven fat slob, spewing drivel. I wanted to kick him in the nuts then too.
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Originally posted by Sandman
If you like Penn, be sure to watch Penn & Teller's Bull****.
That's a great series. The episodes on Gun Control, Free Speech, & bottled water are my favorites.
Mike Wilson did a pretty good job in MMHA, I enjoyed it.
At least people are finally catching on to MM's ambush style, he's gonna have a bit harder of a time getting those interviews for his film about the healthcare industry. Companies have basically put out an APB and forbidden employees from talking to him.
It's also believed that he's now ghostwriting for Cindy Sheehan. The style of her writing changed considerably since he took her up cause and now mysteriously fits Moore's.
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Thanks for pointing that movie out Lazs! I probably wouldn't have rented it if I hadn't read your post...
TJ
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some of the best parts are the interviews with the people who are in moores movies saying that their parts were edited in order to show exactly the oppossite of what was really happening.... most demanded an apolodgy.
moores views are repugnant to me but the thing that is worse is his total lack of morals... he will lie blod faced over an over. One of the liberals in the movie said that moore hurt their cause because of this..
The only thing that really appaled me in the movie (I allready knew more was a raving liar) was...In the movie.... Wilson interviewed moore fans... he asked them if, if they knew that most of the things portrayed in moores movies were untrue or missrepresentations... how would they feel? they said that.... if that were the case then they would be dissapointed but...
That The greater truth was more important than facts. That he thought like they did in the big things so they could excuse the dishonesty.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
The only thing that really appaled me in the movie (I allready knew more was a raving liar) was...In the movie.... Wilson interviewed moore fans... he asked them if, if they knew that most of the things portrayed in moores movies were untrue or missrepresentations... how would they feel? they said that.... if that were the case then they would be dissapointed but...
That The greater truth was more important than facts. That he thought like they did in the big things so they could excuse the dishonesty.
lazs
I want to kick them all in the nuts :mad: :furious :mad:
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Originally posted by Sandman
Hmmm... what views are those? AFAIK, he's critical of Bush, critical of the NRA, and critical of corporations.
Maybe it's just me, but I think there is more to our country than this.
Being critical is one thing. Producing outright lies, misrepresentations and character assassination is another. Just watch Bowling for Columbine carefully, watch the section where he trashes Charlton Heston, He pieces together clips from several speeches to make it out to look like one appearance in CO. The problem is Heston's clothing keeps changing. The real insult is that Moore has such a low opinion of the intelligence of his target audience that he believes (accurately it sure seems) that they will never pick up on this obvious trick. This type of "liberty with reality" is common in all of his work. It is a common propaganda trick. Which illustrates exactly what Moore's work is, Propaganda.
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Originally posted by Clifra Jones
Which illustrates exactly what Moore's work is, Propaganda.
Of course it's propaganda. Many documentaries are.
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Take what he says, do some research, and make your own opinions. I would have to say a good amount of people will take things at face value from Bush without researching it
SEE: No Child Left Behind Act
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Laz did you go to the theater to see this or did you rent it?
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Originally posted by nirvana
Ignorance will keep you in the dark. This is the problem I have with people in this country, you won't listen to the opposite side. By saying you won't ever pay attention to him to completely deny his opinion and listening to a diffrent side of the story. There are multiple facets to every story that goes on, choosing to listen to just 1 will get you in trouble eventually.
Just out of curiousity, do you have to consume poop to decide that it's
probably not a good idea?
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Originally posted by nirvana
Take what he says, do some research, and make your own opinions. I would have to say a good amount of people will take things at face value from Bush without researching it
SEE: No Child Left Behind Act
sooo.. according to you.... its fine if moore does what he does because you think Bush does something similar. Good plan.
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Originally posted by nirvana
SEE: No Child Left Behind Act
Ahhhh youth is definatly waisted on the young. Take this that I quoted it and as you say "do some research" and find out who co-sponsored the bill.
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See how much good it does in schools;) I know from firsthand experience not only does it leave kids behind, the feet draggers drag down everyone else in the classroom as well.
What i'm looking at is about 84 Republicans cosponsoring the act. http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d107:HR00001:@@@P
What your point was, I have no idea. They claim there is an increase in the "national report card". I would, however, dispute these claims based on my school. We could just be different but they place much emphasis on their tests to see how well students are doing. The say "a well designed evaluation system ......." WELL DESIGNED. Not sure how many of you have kids in school that take state funded tests every year, i'm not sure how well designed they actually are.
Another thing they have is an optional alternative school for kids who can't, or won't, participate in the normal school enviornment. Not only does this leave the kids behind anyway, a 10-1 schedule in which it is my understanding they do next to no learning, leaves them with as much as they went in with. Tell me how NCLB is a benefit.
BTW Eating poop, a common sense thing, listening to differing opinions, at least give it a chance.
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BTW Eating poop, a common sense thing, listening to differing opinions, at least give it a chance. [/B]
I prefer to not eat poop, hence my disdain for MM. I can't respect anyone who does not respect me. Totally different than respecting other peoples point of view.
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Originally posted by nirvana
Ignorance will keep you in the dark. This is the problem I have with people in this country, you won't listen to the opposite side. By saying you won't ever pay attention to him to completely deny his opinion and listening to a diffrent side of the story. There are multiple facets to every story that goes on, choosing to listen to just 1 will get you in trouble eventually.
I grew up listening to his "conspiracy theories". It is all he has in life besides a cupboard full of McDonalds. Again, I will never give that chode the attention he craves.
Karaya
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guns... I bought the movie. It wasn't at the local blockbuster and I read an article on it in the American rifleman that said that it gave the NRA a fair shake and that Froman (the new pres) was interviewed in it. I really like hearing what she has to say and as I expected... she did a great job but then.... I have never heard an NRA officer who was not twice as articulate and well spoken as the person attacking them.
sandie... you missed the point of moores movies then... the point moore makes is that our whole system is totally screwed up and that there is no hope for the little guy (without a big socialist government)... more shows only destruction and despair in America and then goes abroad to say what fools we are... He lies openly and blatantly in huge and shocking ways.
one of the liberals in the movie said that if moore represented liberalism then he did it in a bad way... he made "us" all look like morons.
lazs
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He is a poster child for the left
Go Michael Moore go!!!
lol lol lol
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Originally posted by lazs2
he made "us" all look like morons.
lazs
Ya know... as I look around day to day, I'm convinced that a good percentage of "us" are indeed just that. ;)
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Originally posted by Eagler
He is a poster child for the left
Go Michael Moore go!!!
lol lol lol
Michael Moore is Karl Rove's lackey! He's part of a super-secret plan to galvanize the right by being the loudest, most deceitful fruitcake possible while holding up the banner of the democrats... intentionally causing people to sway to the right instead of the left.
...this has no base in fact whatsoever... but it'd be funny if it were true. :)
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of course you feel that way... so does moore... all liberals feel that way... you of course (and anyone who agrees with you) are excepted from such blanket condemnation... until they leave the fold.
I believe that allmost every American is pretty savy and bright. I don't see us in such a hopeless light... I see people working hard to get ahead and a lot of hope and courage...
you and moore see nothing but a bleak landscape populated by morons.
and that is the point of both movies.
lazs
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You can't argue with a Moore movie watcher..Thier not really interested in facts But its easy for a Moore lefty to relate to a large overwieght fat slob for facts, it makes em feel at home like thier dads home from prison...
TOJO
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Originally posted by lazs2
The only thing that really appaled me in the movie (I allready knew more was a raving liar) was...In the movie.... Wilson interviewed moore fans... he asked them if, if they knew that most of the things portrayed in moores movies were untrue or missrepresentations... how would they feel? they said that.... if that were the case then they would be dissapointed but...
That The greater truth was more important than facts. That he thought like they did in the big things so they could excuse the dishonesty.
lazs
mm's work has become a parody of himself, he bemoans the excesses of captialism while becoming a millionaire in the process. anyone that is savvy enough could see this from a mile away. but how does a single private citizen represent you when it comes to domestic or foreign affairs? how many of these policies originate from hollywood producers?
so the question begging to be answered is, how did his tactics in any way differ from those used by the neocon admin in regards to wmd/saddam, tillman, lynch or abu garif affairs, other than one was paid for with taxpayer dollars?
so are you just appalled with these incidents, did they make you feel like a moron because you paid for them? or do they fit into your catergory of the greater truth?
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right is right wrong is wrong. What makes you think that calling MM out for what he is necessitates a right wing dictum? Does this fit into your catergory of the greater truth?
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Originally posted by lazs2
of course you feel that way... so does moore... all liberals feel that way... you of course (and anyone who agrees with you) are excepted from such blanket condemnation... until they leave the fold.
I believe that allmost every American is pretty savy and bright. I don't see us in such a hopeless light... I see people working hard to get ahead and a lot of hope and courage...
you and moore see nothing but a bleak landscape populated by morons.
and that is the point of both movies.
lazs
It's not liberalism or conservatism or libertarianism.
For me, it's pessimism. ;)
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Originally posted by indy007
Michael Moore is Karl Rove's lackey! He's part of a super-secret plan to galvanize the right by being the loudest, most deceitful fruitcake possible while holding up the banner of the democrats... intentionally causing people to sway to the right instead of the left.
...this has no base in fact whatsoever... but it'd be funny if it were true. :)
You do know now that those black helicopters wil be hovering over you house any minute. :noid
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Originally posted by Torque
mm's work has become a parody of himself, he bemoans the excesses of captialism while becoming a millionaire in the process. anyone that is savvy enough could see this from a mile away. but how does a single private citizen represent you when it comes to domestic or foreign affairs? how many of these policies originate from hollywood producers?
so the question begging to be answered is, how did his tactics in any way differ from those used by the neocon admin in regards to wmd/saddam, tillman, lynch or abu garif affairs, other than one was paid for with taxpayer dollars?
so are you just appalled with these incidents, did they make you feel like a moron because you paid for them? or do they fit into your category of the greater truth?
Typical "gotchaism" from a lefty. Pointing out a perceived wrong of your opponent does not justify an actual wrong done by you.
I could lay out a series of abominations carried out by the left throughout the world but I fear this forum isn't long enough. Plus it would do no good as the "faithful' will not listen to any facts that contradict their dogma.
(for clarity, YOU is used in the general sense not the specific. )
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sandie... pessimism is also a liberal trait. Are you saying that you are not a liberal and that thinking the average man is a moron is not a liberal trait?
I say that both things are true.
torque... watch the movie. You are correct... a lie is a lie... but... because you feel something is a lie that does not give you the right to..... well..
lie, to get your point across.
I think most people would like the movie. It might come as a shock just how badly moore made things up out of thin air.... buying the rifle from the bank was outrageous in it's total missrepresentation or cutting the words from three speaches on three different dates and saying that it was all one speach on one date... that sort of thing.
watching moore avoid being interviewed and lying about how he didn't avoid the interviews or how he didn't even know who the guy was or anything was the absolute hight of irony.
lazs
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Originally posted by Sandman
Of course it's propaganda. Many documentaries are.
As is Laz's review...
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Originally posted by lazs2
sandie... pessimism is also a liberal trait. Are you saying that you are not a liberal and that thinking the average man is a moron is not a liberal trait?
I'm not sure... can you give me a list of liberal traits? How about one for conservatives too?
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Originally posted by Silat
As is Laz's review...
Propaganda is a specific type of message presentation aimed at serving an agenda. At its root, the denotation of propaganda is 'to propagate (actively spread) a philosophy or point of view'. The most common use of the term (historically) is in political contexts; in particular to refer to certain efforts sponsored by governments or political groups.
While he does not hide his own opinion regarding Moore, I see no attempt in Lazs review to sway anyone's opinion regarding Moore one way or the other. Therefor the charge does not fit.
Again we see the classic left-wing tactic of changing the focus of the discussion away from the true subject and turning it towards the character/intentions of the opposing party. With the intent to demean or degrade said character/intentions.
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Originally posted by Clifra Jones
Again we see the classic left-wing tactic of changing the focus of the discussion away from the true subject and turning it towards the character/intentions of the opposing party. With the intent to demean or degrade said character/intentions.
Oh, it's a tactic alright. It's used by the right as well as the left.
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sandie... before I get into left or right traits....
do you consider yourself a liberal?
and... silat.. I am asking you to see the movie and make up your own mind. I think the guy tried his best to follow in the footsteps of respected documentary makers... that is.... to let the chips fall where they may... His opinions were obvious but he dealt with the interviews in as fair a way as possible I thought... watch it and give your opinion.
lazs
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I'm more of a libertarian than anything else... but if I had to choose between being a conservative or a liberal, I'd take the latter. Of course, this is using my own sterotypical view of the two which may differ from your own.
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I would say that I am more libertarian than anything also. I would also say that most here would classify you as an extreme liberal and me as a conservative.
lazs
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I'd say most here don't know me well enough to classify me at all.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Oh, it's a tactic alright. It's used by the right as well as the left.
Is some cases that may well be true but at least we on the right, when criticized, don't immediately call our critics Fascists and racist, and spout off about imaginary death threats.
Seems every columnist, activist, college professor, entertainer, etc. that says something incredibly stupid and defamatory towards this country, when criticized for it, is all of a sudden receiving an incredible amount of death threats. Seems far to convenient to me.
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Originally posted by Clifra Jones
Is some cases that may well be true but at least we on the right, when criticized, don't immediately call our critics Fascists and racist, and spout off about imaginary death threats.
Seems every columnist, activist, college professor, entertainer, etc. that says something incredibly stupid and defamatory towards this country, when criticized for it, is all of a sudden receiving an incredible amount of death threats. Seems far to convenient to me.
Dood... ever read any Ann Coulter?
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sandie... I'd say that, that wouldn't stop em. I'd say that based only on your posts... most would see you as an extreme liberal.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
sandie... I'd say that, that wouldn't stop em. I'd say that based only on your posts... most would see you as an extreme liberal.
lazs
Tell you what... you tell me what my views are and I'll tell you if I agree. This might be interesting... probably in another thread.
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I don't think Sandy is an extreme leftist liberal but he IS a liberal none the less, he's just got more common sense it seems, than most liberals that I know.
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Sandman has proven himself to be flexible in his views. He is far less left than he used to be :aok
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Originally posted by Rino
Just out of curiousity, do you have to consume poop to decide that it's
probably not a good idea?
Do Rino's eat there own poop?:)
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Lazs' comment earlier may have been rhetorical, but I'll comment anyway. From the perspective of a neutral third party (me):
Sandman is one of the posters I think of as being decidedly liberal. Just watching his avatar is enough to confirm the accuracy of that opinion. I don't think he particularly likes the Democrats though, so much as he probably views them as "the enemy of my enemies".
Far from considering Lazs a conservative, I think of him as an anarchist. I believe he feels the best government is no government, or as close to none as possible. Prior to the creation of the Libertarian party, many anarchists used the word "libertarian" to describe themselves.
J_A_B
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jab.. I would say that is an accurate observation based on the available data.
sandie used to write a lot more... lately it seems he has confined himself to pithy or, snide comments noted for their brevity... it is allmost like he is trying to hide how he really feels about a subject. Ones like gun control he simply avoids completely... Libertarians have been known to do that tho... many libertarians are conflicted about guns..
On the one hand they are effite academics who by and large, are aftaid of firearms but on the other.... their political stance does not allow them to take such a large personal freedom from the people so.... they avoid dialogue on the subject.
lazs
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Oh... one other thing that was really neat about or "aboot" the movie was that he went to canada to see if it really was the peaceful socialist paradise that moore claimed....
he interviewed nash where nash expounded on his views of national health care and gun control.
lazs
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Holy smokes - you've got a crush on me.
I never thought I'd see it happen and now that it has?
I'm over you.
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Originally posted by Yeager
Sandman has proven himself to be flexible in his views. He is far less left than he used to be :aok
I doubt it. I'm probably just far less left than you previously thought.
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nash... watch the movie and see if you don't recognize yourself in that clip.
sandie.... I think that you have allways been pretty far left it is just that you have learned to keep your mouth shut so as not to prove it.
lazs
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And Las is a coward.
Les
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If you meant me.... then you are probably right. I do a lot of things that I am moraly against so as not to pay the penalties.
lazs
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I do mean you Lazs. You said it yourself.;)
Les
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and I just said it again. In exactly the same way. I said it in a condensed form but, unlike sandies newest condensed form, it was meant to inform, not hide.
lazs
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You know Lazs, I have respect for you. You are a mentor and are wise. Much as I'd like to fight, I will concede this time. Besides, this ain't my business with you and sandie and all. I was only trying to point out a few things. Carrry on.
Les