Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Hangtime on October 18, 2005, 11:10:49 AM
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Been having such a blast at the range lately.. thinking on joining the winter leauge. They have a military bolt action group and I've been eyeballing various inexpensive but accurate former military pieces that are available for less than 200 bucks in decent shape.
Note, I'm not looking for a 'match grade shooter' or a varmit gun..
Qualifiers would be inexpensive easy to aquire ammo (i don't have reload equipment) and low cost in the door.
On the list so far is:
Springfield 1903 (sporter, NRA version)
KA-95/98 Mauser
Enfield
Any others I should be looking at?
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Hangtime, look into the Mosin Nagant line of Russian rifles. I picked up an MN 91/30 for $70 and ammo is cheap. Accurate rifle and I like the historical aspects also. The one I have was made in 1943.
Many good sites with info out there, here's one:
http://www.surplusrifle.com/russianmosin189130/index.asp (http://www.surplusrifle.com/russianmosin189130/index.asp)
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No, the 91/30 is cheap, but until you actually get yours out to the range you won't know how accuratte it is. That's not something you want to just drop down 70-100 dollars per gun on the off chance that it'll be accurate. Ontop of that, you'd have to handload to be somewhat accurate.
Next, I wouldn't buy a Sporterized rifle if you held a gun to my head. You can get a standard 1903 from CMP for about 400 bucks. You'll have to clean it up, but it will be a tack driver. You can buy one from not CMP for roughly 600-1000. The upside of this is it's easy to buy quality loads.
A mauser would be a good choice for accuracy, but you will have to do some shopping to actually get a K98k for under 200 bucks in good condition. Ontop of this, you will have to either hand load or buy quality loads to be sort of competitive.
The enfield is another good choice, but has the same problems and advantages that the mauser has. You can find some decent loads, but they'll be a little more expensive.
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smle in .308
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Originally posted by storch
smle in .308
smle?
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short magazine lee- enfield
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I've got a friend that has a Jungle Carbine Enfield. Will be shooting it this weekend, it's on my list. Wanna check out the action.. if I like it, a full length model at the right price would be under consideration :)
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Originally posted by Hangtime
I've got a friend that has a Jungle Carbine Enfield. Will be shooting it this weekend, it's on my list. Wanna check out the action.. if I like it, a full length model at the right price would be under consideration :)
it has a silky smooth action. the ones rechambered to .308 have been available for a few years now. I believe your friend's may be a .308 I think they are marketed as jungle carbines. I forgot to mention the .30-40 krag-jorgensson, these also have a very smooth bolt and are very much fun to shoot. also the 6.5mm swedish mauser may well be worth a look.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
No, the 91/30 is cheap, but until you actually get yours out to the range you won't know how accuratte it is. That's not something you want to just drop down 70-100 dollars per gun on the off chance that it'll be accurate. Ontop of that, you'd have to handload to be somewhat accurate.
I own 4 of these, 3 M44's and a M38, all of which were very accurate with nothing but a good cleaning. The 38 is my favorite, being shorter and lighter, and not having the built-in bayonet lug. The 91/30 is the same rifle, just a little longer and it has much better sights.
As for the ammo, thats BS. Stay away from the surplus stuff and buy good quality factory loads from Federal. I use one of these deer hunting, and the Federal loads work great. With just iron sights the M44 I have mounted on the synthetic stock of my deer rifle will post 2.5 inch groups at 100 yards. I'm not arguing against handloading for this rifle, by all means do so. Makes the ammo MUCH cheaper. Again, you stay away from the surplus stuff as it is not reloadable. Buy commercial brass and load all you want. But to say you HAVE to use handloads to be competitive with this rifle is just silly.
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Finnish Mosin nagant
Much better quality than the russian versions. Better sights, more accurate. Much more compfortable stock (to me.)
Ammo is cheap as hell and readily available.
Only down side is a good one might run a bit more than $200.
Might as that question over here too...
http://www.gunboards.com
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Yes, read many times that the M39 "Finnish Mosin Nagant" is a bit more accurate than the Russian Mosins. I find my 91/30 very accurate though and even using military ammo (currently Albanian stuff) it is still accurate. Of course if I would shoot competition I would use better factory ammo.
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There's a difference between Accurate enough and good accuraccy.
We're talking about competition shooting here. The accuraccy of the two 91/30's I own varies greatly. One is decent, one is not good. While they are fun to shoot, I'd never take one into a competition.
However, my 1903a3 is incredibly accurate with even standard econo loads.
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I am gonna be hard pressed to decide for sure. Fired a Nagant last week.. was ok, decent group. Already have a couple of SKS's.. wasn't seriously considering another commie in the inventory. Had a guy let me put a few downrange with a 1903 that had an upgraded sporter stock and a scope.. had the Nagant whipped six ways from sunday.
All comes down to price for me.. I have cadillac tastes and a chevy budget for this. ;)
I'm not looking to set up a collection of military arms, I'm looking for the best shooter for the least money. I really don't care if the weapon has been 'bubbafied' and I don't expect to 'win' a competition, just enjoy the format and the folks that bring these pieces down to the range. Love learning new stuff, and most of these folks are happy to share info and history.. great way to spend an afternoon with decent people.
Keep the suggestions and observations coming guys.. enjoy it immensely.
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Dang Hang...while your at it grab a M1 Garand and a M1 Carbine just for fun :)
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Just got back from a 5-hour drive (round trip) to pick up a nice 1917 SMLE (Lee Enfield) I bought at a gun show on Sunday. Good appearance, bore is sharp and bright, and you get that “Over the top lads!” vibe. It balances better than the no. 4 mk1, and even though it’s supposed to be a bit heavier it feels lighter. I have a new favorite rifle, until I buy the next one. Paid $150, about what I could have got one for from AIM (WW1 dates/British Mfg) a few months back if you add in shipping and transfer fees. The gas was a bit of a kicker though. BTW, The No. 5 is going to kick a lot more than a full sized battle rifle.
Enfields are about my favorite bolt action so far, but Mosin Nagants and 8mm Mausers are cheaper to shoot. Anything in 7.62 is pretty cheap to shoot but more expensive to buy, except the Ishapore Enfields. You can get a field grade Garand from CMP for under $400... next on my list.
Charon
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$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ !!
Would love to have an M-14 or M1A, but frankly, it's just not worth $1200.00 + as a shooter. (IMHO)
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Originally posted by Charon
Just got back from a 5-hour drive (round trip) to pick up a nice 1917 SMLE (Lee Enfield) I bought at a gun show on Sunday. Good appearance, bore is sharp and bright, and you get that “Over the top lads!” vibe. It balances better than the no. 4 mk1, and even though it’s supposed to be a bit heavier it feels lighter. I have a new favorite rifle, until I buy the next one. Paid $150, about what I could have got one for from AIM (WW1 dates/British Mfg) a few months back if you add in shipping and transfer fees. The gas was a bit of a kicker though. BTW, The No. 5 is going to kick a lot more than a full sized battle rifle.
Enfields are about my favorite bolt action so far, but Mosin Nagants and 8mm Mausers are cheaper to shoot. Anything in 7.62 is pretty cheap to shoot but more expensive to buy, except the Ishapore Enfields. You can get a field grade Garand from CMP for under $400... next on my list.
Charon
Nice! Good find, great price!
Whats a 'Ishapore' Enfield?
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another interesting smelly conversion is to the russian round but IMO smellies are about the least accurate of all military bolt guns..
Hang... it's not a bolt gun but the rifle I really enjoy shooting is the Garand.
lazs
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Well, if you're going to CMP you might as well grab a 1903 and a Garand. You can justify the cost later.
Btw, the Garand is a decent competition gun too (just make sure you drive to Camp Perry and pick out your own gun). But it's not a bolt action gun.
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I know.. I know.. Laz, I just can justify the price for one in good condition. Sooner or later one will get in my hands at the right price... I hope.
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through the CMP you can get a garand for $450
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
through the CMP you can get a garand for $450
lazs
yup $450.00 for a CMP Garand
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I have just about all mentioned rifles above. One of my favorite to shoot and prob the most accurate of the group is the Czech 98/22 in 8mm Mauser. It is a heavy rifle and can be had for less than $200. Before the market ran dry I bought two gems for $70 each.
Another rifle that hasnt been mentioned is the Turkish M38 or the 03 Turk. It is a bit of a crap shoot with these but they can still be had in the cheap < $90 range. Ammo is cheap 8mm and are very fun. I have a few that will keep a nice 2" group at 100 yards. A few others that will keyhole at 25yards. Try not to buy a Turk blind. Get a good look at it.
Another that hasnt been mentioned and one that could interest you the most. The Swiss 1931 Scmidt Rubin K31 7.5 Swiss Caliber. Very accurate rifle! Easy on the shoulder. Ammo in the surplus variant hard to come by. But comercial is available and accurate.
K31 (http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Swiss_1931_Carbin_Scmidt_Rubin_K31_7_5Swiss_Cal_.html)
Some of the other guns mentioned on this thread are for sale at this site. I have done lots of buisness with them and one of the best in the buisness.
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Hang,
If you pick up a bolt action like a mauser, mosin, or enfeild. Look into casting your own lead bullits and working up low power loads. The barrel will last longer, less kick and you may be suprised at the accuracy out to 200 yds for things like silluette shooting.
But, it will require slugging the barrel and casting the chamber to get your throat size. I found those tasks to be a fun challenge. There are some very good articles on the Internet about casting your own lead bullits for Milsurp rifles.
You will find a good collection of articles here for the whole hobby of Milsurp rifles.
http://www.surplusrifle.com/CDROM/contents.asp
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Dont judge the SMLE by shooting the N0.5 Jungle Carbine! While the action is the same, the carbine kicks like a mule compared to the No1 MkIII. The rubber butt pad on the carbine is much smaller than the big brass butt plate on the full sized rifle. That and the difference in weight makes the recoil feel like a totally different gun.
Just last Saturday I sold my last SMLE. With that gun I had taken first place in the bolt-action division of a local shooting competition. Sold it for $90.00 with a 18 inch bayonet Smles in the grease (surplus) guns are going for $70.00 at the local gun shows right now.
At one point, I had 23 SMLEs including two of the .22 single shot training rifles. (Some time ago my new wife & child changed my gunroom into a craft room such is life.)
As mentioned, the No1 MkIII SMLE can be found in .308 as opposed to the normal .303. the only exterior difference is the shape of the magazine. The price is also a little higher.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Nice! Good find, great price!
Whats a 'Ishapore' Enfield?
"Ishapore" Enfileds were made in India.
All of the .308 SMLEs I have seen were Indian made rifles.
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Keep your eyes and ears open! A lot of old guns surface at estate auctions. Last summer at a farm auction there was a card table with some old guns on it. High bidder got first choice of anything on the table.
I was the high bidder at $265.00 and chose this!
(http://www.MyOnlineImages.com/Members/goalyeb/images/garrand.jpg)
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Originally posted by G0ALY
Keep your eyes and ears open! A lot of old guns surface at estate auctions. Last summer at a farm auction there was a card table with some old guns on it. High bidder got first choice of anything on the table.
I was the high bidder at $265.00 and chose this!
(http://www.MyOnlineImages.com/Members/goalyeb/images/garrand.jpg)
Excellent! Everyone who collects WWII rifles must invest in a Garrand.
I have four Enfields. My favorite is a 1941 No.4 Mk.I made by Savage under Lend Lease. It has just two rifling lands, but is the more accurate of the three shooters. I also have a No.I Mk.III* (omitted the magazine cut-off) dating to 1916. This rifle has a solid history being traced back to it being issued to the Australian 9th Light Horse. This rifle served in Palestine during the unit's engagement at Beersheba. It's in good condition, but its historical value means that it will never be fired again.
Also in my collection are several Mausers, including a really nice 1943 BRNO made 98k, with laminated stock.
Myy regards,
Widewing
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Ford, chevy or dodge?
I've seen this question asked alot before. usually the most accurate out the the box are the.
96 sweedish mauser in 6.5x55
swiss k31
finn m39
Alot of others are a crapshoot as mentioned before.
Any of these is usually capable of ~1" groups at 100 yards with good ammo and a capable shooter. If you can handload groups can sometimes be sub-MOA.
While the k31 is cheaper to buy than the finn MN. I reccomended the finn MN because the ammo is much cheaper. I have heard rumors that WOLF will be making 7.5 swiss ammo. So, that might make it a moot point.
Please dont judge the Finn Mosin Nagants on the russians. Its like comparing a chevy cavalier to a cadillac STS. I have both and they are worlds differnt in quality. While the basic design is the same the Finns made a number of improvments to the 1891/30 design.
If you can get your hands on some of the rifles mentioned. You may find one that just fits you perfectly.
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Originally posted by TPIguy
Ford, chevy or dodge?
I've seen this question asked alot before. usually the most accurate out the the box are the.
96 sweedish mauser in 6.5x55
swiss k31
finn m39
Alot of others are a crapshoot as mentioned before.
Any of these is usually capable of ~1" groups at 100 yards with good ammo and a capable shooter. If you can handload groups can sometimes be sub-MOA.
While the k31 is cheaper to buy than the finn MN. I reccomended the finn MN because the ammo is much cheaper. I have heard rumors that WOLF will be making 7.5 swiss ammo. So, that might make it a moot point.
Please dont judge the Finn Mosin Nagants on the russians. Its like comparing a chevy cavalier to a cadillac STS. I have both and they are worlds differnt in quality. While the basic design is the same the Finns made a number of improvments to the 1891/30 design.
If you can get your hands on some of the rifles mentioned. You may find one that just fits you perfectly.
oops I forgot the M93 spanish mauser 7x57mm those are real nice shooters IMO as well.
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Hey guys.. thanks for the education and tips. Seriously! It's all gooooood. ;)
I'm gonna ramp up the search for an M39... the cost of 7.62x54 ammo is the kicker, and from the descriptions of the finn build up on the commie nagant receiver it should certainly fit the accuracy profile. Goes on my winter gun show buy list mostly cause the damn things are still under 200 bucks.
Laz, got a friend that's already hooked up with the CMP.. gonna hook up with him when he comes down state later this month. Definitely gotta check with him onna decent field grade garrand. I'll get there, just can't let my alligator appetite overload my parakeet budget. :)
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Make sure you actually drive to camp perry to pick your gun. It's so much more fun and you can pick a very nice one.
You can find decent 7.62x54r ammo out there, though probably not in many gun shops. Just hit up some online place like the sportsmansguide.com .
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303 surplus ammo has about dried up. I have seen smellies converted to the 7.62x 54 r russian stuff and they were very accurate and.. the ammo is dirt cheap... being a rimmed cartrige like the 303 there are none of the problems the .308 guns have (mags)... A very slick conversion... if you own russian guns you then have a lot of guns in the same caliber that all shoot cheap ammo...
I don't know how you guys are getting these groups... I can't see that well at 100 yards... my front sight covers 4" of target... I do allmost as well with my 44 mag... I can shoot 3-4" groups with the open sight rifles and maybe 5-6" with the 44 mag revolvers.
I shoot the open sight rifles at 50 yards to test loads on the guns.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
303 surplus ammo has about dried up. I have seen smellies converted to the 7.62x 54 r russian stuff and they were very accurate and.. the ammo is dirt cheap... being a rimmed cartrige like the 303 there are none of the problems the .308 guns have (mags)... A very slick conversion... if you own russian guns you then have a lot of guns in the same caliber that all shoot cheap ammo...
That's a heluva idea... an Enfield re-chambered would be worthwhile with the cost of ammo being what it is.. assuming I don't get into reloading.
I don't know how you guys are getting these groups... I can't see that well at 100 yards... my front sight covers 4" of target... I do allmost as well with my 44 mag... I can shoot 3-4" groups with the open sight rifles and maybe 5-6" with the 44 mag revolvers.
I shoot the open sight rifles at 50 yards to test loads on the guns.
lazs
I know.. I was blind myself beyond 50 yards. Didn't even realize how bad my eyes had gotten till I made it to the range.. years ago I switched to really BIG planes so I could keep flying. ;) Found a great cure.. about a month back I went to the drug store and got a pair of 1.75 diopter reading glasses, full face style. (I already use 3.0's for reading)
Now when I look downrange I can actually see the bull in sharp clear relief. Wan't always that easy.. first time out with the Chinese SKS the damm rounds wern't even on the paper. I was hugely dissapointed. That's when I regrouped, got a nice Tech rear aperature sight (garand style) and the 1.5d glasses and went to try the Chinaman again. Whotta thrill. Took 15 rounds to zero the new sight and it's shooting about 2.5" groups at 50 yards.
When I moved to the 100 yard range I needed a pair of binoculars to spot effectively, but with the 1.5d glasses at least I could get a good hold on the target and I was able to keep the groups to about 4-5".. pretty good for a Chinese short barreled SKS shooting cheap russian ammo. When I tried the bigger Russian SKS (1953 Tula, a MUCH better weapon) the groups were at least an inch tighter.
On the 200 yard range I found that setup, breathing, hold and squeeze habits paid off.. I could kiss my old army range instructor; bastards prolly been dead for 30 years or more.. but the truth is unchanged by time. With a decent aperature sight I can still get 'em on the paper inside 5" groups with the Russian, about 8" (and more flyers) with the short barreled Chinaman. Yep the front sight post about covers the target completely, but you can do it if you are consistent in the setup and paitent. A clean trigger break and a quality weapon and ammo REALLY pays off outside of 100 yards. With the crap I've got, 5" is pretty good for a half blind old man at 200 yards.
Amazing how time flies.. the concentration is complete; yah really gotta get into the 'zone'.
I love it.. can't believe how much I missed it. Really glad to be gettin back into it. Thanks Laz. ;)
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Originally posted by Hangtime
I am gonna be hard pressed to decide for sure. Fired a Nagant last week.. was ok, decent group. Already have a couple of SKS's.. wasn't seriously considering another commie in the inventory.
I am still upset that I lost my a book from my Father's library called "Sportivnaya strel'ba" (Sports shooting), published in late-50s. :( Half of the book was dedicated to "tuning" a 1891/30 rifle.
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Originally posted by TPIguy
Finnish Mosin nagant
Much better quality than the russian versions. Better sights, more accurate. Much more compfortable stock (to me.)
Did Finland produce three-line rifles, ot it is just an "upgrade" of original Russian rifles made in Sestroretsk or Tula before 1918?
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Just about all the Finns kept was the receiver. New heavier barrels with improved rifleing, modified or new bolts, better sights, different design stocks. By all reports a supurb weapon in it's day... considered by many to be the finest version of the nagant design.
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Good site http://www.mosinnagant.net
FAQ: http://www.mosinnagant.net/finland/finnfaq.asp
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Several manufacturers for ammo in 7.62x54
http://www.outdoormarksman.com/index.php?cPath=65_63_48&osCsid=8d08c51f8d1f073b66e1e75a920e2d78
Stay away from the Wolf stuff. Its cheaper for a reason.
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Originally posted by mipoikel
Good site http://www.mosinnagant.net
FAQ: http://www.mosinnagant.net/finland/finnfaq.asp
Last time I checked that site several years ago there wasn't that much info.
Did the Finns capture all the Mosin Nagants they used in service either as issue rifles or to make use of the receivers?
No. While the Finns did take large numbers of Mosin Nagants in the Finnish Civil War of 1918 as well as the Winter War of 1939-1940, then Finns also purchased a great number of rifles abroad in the 1920's. Most of the Finnish stockpile of Mosin Nagants came from these outside purchases.
"Abroad" - this is interesting. Did they buy original Russian/Soviet rifles? Or maybe American "Hartford" version, that was famous for it's horrible quality? Americans got a huge stock of 1891/09 rifles after 1917, not only ones that were paid by Imperial government and never delivered, but also huge quantities "captured" by intervent forces in Archangelsk during Civil War.
By 1891/09 I mean a version that could use 1909 "light" (ogival) bullet cartridge, not only old 1891 hemispheric bullets.
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hang... I wear glasses to shoot my vision is 20/15 corrected... it was 20/15 uncorrected for most of my life. With open sigts tho... most of the target is obscured at 100 yards... especially an apeture with military post front... I shoot slightly better grops with a small bead front sight that equals about 2 moa.... I would say that most post front sights obscure 4" or so of a target. If you hold 6 oclock at the base of a small (4") bull you will do better.... but... it is difficult.
I never was a great rifle shot... 3" groups with open sights at 100 yards allways were about the best I could do.
lazs
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Anyone ever do business with these people?
http://www.mitchellsales.com/
They sell a WW2 era Mauser K98-M48 with a sling, bayonette, etc. and advertise in the American Rifleman. I have been looking to pick one at a gun show, but after this long I don't think that will happen. The rifles cost $299 and were made in Serbia in 1943. I plan to order one sometime before Christmas.
Regards,
Malta
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Anyone ever do business with these people? ... WW2 era Mauser K98-M48
They sell a Yugo mauser that never served in WW2 for a couple of hundered more than you can get elsewhere. They pretty them up real nice, which has value to some, but their ad copy suggest real k98 to many who don't know better. For example: "A genuine Mauser 98K, the Model M48 is the Strongest and Best of the original bolt-action Rifles. " No, it is a model 48. The K98 is similar, in the same family, but not the same by any means. The action size is even different.
The rifles cost $299 and were made in Serbia in 1943. I plan to order one sometime before Christmas.
The Yugoslav M48 Mauser rifle was manufactured from 1950-65 at the Zavodi Crvena Zastava (Red Banner Works. Zastava was known as "Preduzece 44"--meaning Enterprise 44, from 1945-52. In 1952 it was renamed Red Banner Works.) http://www.surplusrifle.com/yugom48/index.asp
Mitchells has received so much flack, that they have started adding some disclaimers on the site, presenting faults as "advantages" and hoping nobody reads the fine print too closely.
The historical "real" K98s they advertise are super expensive and restored (which is a direct contradiction). Restoration kills collector value, so you are paying twice as much for half as much. They never say "all martching" in their copy, so I might surmise that they are humped up russian captures, cleaned up "refinished" maybe restocked and restamped and hugely marked up to start at $2,500. You would be very lucky to get $700 in resale "restored" IF they were actually all matching and not faked. If faked, maybe $200 from somebody that liked a pretty rifle.
If you want a really nice M-48 at a good price try AIM: http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Yugoslavian_Model_48_8mm_Mauser_Rifle.html It might not be "quite" as pretty but it will be in very good or better condition. $119
A variety of sources sell straight russian capture K98k mismatched shooters for around $200. I paid $150 for mine in rough condition. It had a dark "pitted" looking bore, but after 100 rounds it cleaned up sharp and bright. I guess the pitting was just particle of super crud that just wouldn't brush out without some "help" :)
No real collector value with the RCs, since they are totally mismatched. The Russias took all the captured k98s, broke them down into parts, disposed of the damaged and reassembled the rest into random, non matching (serial number) guns for use in WW3. You can leave them in their nasty russian varnish finish "because that's part of their history too..." or strip the varnish and restore them to their precapture glory (mostly) without worry about "ruining" their value. They may be rough (some more than others), but they have actually been there, and can be pretty good shooters.
Try Empire Arms http://www.empirearms.com/. They have top end, well described hand selected RCs for about the same price (or less) as the very pretty but not historical M-48s at Mitchells.
Charon
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Hang, if you are looking for M39s try Wholesale Guns & Ammo. They have the largest selection (bought about all that are left, apparently 12,000) but can only sell the antique receiver guns for now since they got in some trouble recently with ATF and are working it out, apparently over some parts kit guns from years ago that were slighly not to Govt. requirements. http://www.gunsnammo.com/
I got mine there a while back, a nice 1942. Remember, in their ad a shiney bore is not necessiarily a sharp bore, but Sharp AND shiney (or mirror) is good. And, there is finish and "original" finish (some rearsenaled). Unissued are, I believe, guns made post war from non assembled parts. Some also have post war replacement stocks.
Charon
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Damn Charon.... well... thanks.
Regards,
Malta
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IMHO one of the best deals for shooters out there are the Yugo K98 reworks. Their history was scrubbed away and replaced with a yugo coat of arms. Most of these were captured following the war. They are a bit more expensive than the M48s but are worth the extra $30 or so. I purchased 3 of them about a year ago and the rifles appear to be almost new. These are original German made rifles and used during the war. They are refurbished to a much better quality than the russian captures. However the Russian captures mostly still retain the original markings. So if you want a shooter go for the Yugo K98. If you collect get the Russian, or a vet bring back.
A quick Link (http://www.samcoglobal.com/rifles.html) I found that has the Yugo captures, there are many others. I just dont have time to search anymore. Also some other nice rifles on this page.
Another good site for the Yugo M48s are here, Militaryshooters.com (http://www.dealerease.net/catalog/product.asp?pid=1005549&ret_id=140211) These have all the same cool stuff you get with the Mitchell Mausers, at a cheaper price. Still, hard to beat AIM for thier customer service and products.
Here is a Link for dealers (http://p102.ezboard.com/fparallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforumsfrm98.showMessage?topicID=2.topic) that sell relic firearms. Its an Ezboard so you may need to become a member to view it. Lots of great info on that site. Plus under the yugo section you can read about others who have purchased Mitchell mausers.
HTH :aok
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Here are a few pics of the 98k Yugo captures I recieved. This is just as I pulled them out of the shipping boxes. Sorry, not the greatest pics but you get the idea. I was very pleased at $112 each. CDNN has sold out of these long ago.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v113/kevykev/3side.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v113/kevykev/Yugo_stock.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v113/kevykev/3Stocks.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v113/kevykev/3Barrel.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v113/kevykev/Date.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v113/kevykev/TRZ.jpg)
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Originally posted by Charon
Hang, if you are looking for M39s try Wholesale Guns & Ammo. They have the largest selection (bought about all that are left, apparently 12,000) but can only sell the antique receiver guns for now since they got in some trouble recently with ATF and are working it out, apparently over some parts kit guns from years ago that were slighly not to Govt. requirements. http://www.gunsnammo.com/
I got mine there a while back, a nice 1942. Remember, in their ad a shiney bore is not necessiarily a sharp bore, but Sharp AND shiney (or mirror) is good. And, there is finish and "original" finish (some rearsenaled). Unissued are, I believe, guns made post war from non assembled parts. Some also have post war replacement stocks.
Charon
Holy Crap! These guys are in the same town as my range!!
Definitely gonna be giving them a call.... mebbe I can stop by to fondle before I buy. ;) THANKS, Charon!
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Originally posted by kevykev56
IMHO one of the best deals for shooters out there are the Yugo K98 reworks. Their history was scrubbed away and replaced with a yugo coat of arms. Most of these were captured following the war. They are a bit more expensive than the M48s but are worth the extra $30 or so. I purchased 3 of them about a year ago and the rifles appear to be almost new. These are original German made rifles and used during the war. They are refurbished to a much better quality than the russian captures. However the Russian captures mostly still retain the original markings. So if you want a shooter go for the Yugo K98. If you collect get the Russian, or a vet bring back.
A quick Link (http://www.samcoglobal.com/rifles.html) I found that has the Yugo captures, there are many others. I just dont have time to search anymore. Also some other nice rifles on this page.
Another good site for the Yugo M48s are here, Militaryshooters.com (http://www.dealerease.net/catalog/product.asp?pid=1005549&ret_id=140211) These have all the same cool stuff you get with the Mitchell Mausers, at a cheaper price. Still, hard to beat AIM for thier customer service and products.
Here is a Link for dealers (http://p102.ezboard.com/fparallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforumsfrm98.showMessage?topicID=2.topic) that sell relic firearms. Its an Ezboard so you may need to become a member to view it. Lots of great info on that site. Plus under the yugo section you can read about others who have purchased Mitchell mausers.
HTH :aok
Damn.. just spent the last hour rooting thru these sites...my word; those are some fine lookin pieces. Kev, really, this is above 'n beyond; I hugely appreciate the links. I had an Argentinian about 30 years ago.. used it to chop down trees in Maine. ;) Certianly nowhere near a nice as what you've got there... just a good stump thumper that would chuck a slug clean thru a 56 ford pickup. Don't ask. ;)
Again.. thanks for the research and the links.. great info!
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Any word on the accuracy of M38 Arisaka rifles? One of my exes fathers uses one for deer hunting and swears by it.
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Damn Charon.... well... thanks.
THANKS, Charon!
No problem. I am still VERY new to this myself. But you have to get up on the learning curve with these things pretty quickly before you start spending the cash, because it’s easy to make bad moves or at least not the best moves. I don't have an unlimited budget either, and would like to build up a nice shooter collection on the cheap with the most bang for the buck (pun intended), so I try to make every dollar count.
I wouldn’t even think of getting into matching German rifles or US Rifles (short of CMP) or “snipers” at this point since they cost Boo Coo $$$$ and there are a lot of fakers or “humpers” out there stamping up that $4,000 “all matching SS Sniper” on Gunsamerica or "Winchester M1 cartouced stock" on E-bay. Too much money and too much experience required to spot the fakes and if you do get an original real deal, probably too valuable to want to shoot all that much.
Here are some good sites with good forums, in order of my general perceived quality of information:
http://www.gunboards.com/ (heavy Finn Mosin Nagant focus, but very good coverage of everything else too)
http://p077.ezboard.com/bparallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums (probably need to register with Ezboard. Good coverage, don’t even think of discussion permanent sporterizing)
http://www.jouster.com/ (Excellent US rifle coverage boards, good everything else)
http://www.surplusrifle.com/ (Nice articles at main site, OK boards from a knowledge standpoint)
http://p223.ezboard.com/bcurioandrelicfirearmsforum (Good forums, not as active as some)
http://thefiringline.com/forums/index.php (Mainstream board, pleny of bubbas and "mall rangers" but pretty entertaining at time)
http://www.ar15.com/forums/ (not an Evil Black Rifle guy myself -- yet, BUT… the hometown forums give good coverage of pending state laws. Especially the case since “EBRs” are usually high on the target list.
The various boards are very informative about the hobby, but not quite as stimulating or diverse as the O'Club where general discussions are concerned - to put it mildly :) Actually, the researching and gun board surfing, buying and cleaning and occasional 2.5-hour round trip to shoot has eaten up a lot of my AH time this past year. I think I have found my Golf… Unfortunately, not a lot of friends in the area who I grew up with who have any background with firearms from military service or anything else.
Charon
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Nice rifles RHINO. The stocks look particularly nice.
Any word on the accuracy of M38 Arisaka rifles? One of my exes fathers uses one for deer hunting and swears by it.
I've read comments by a few people who are impressed. The Finnish M39s, Swede and Swiss rifles have generally good reputations out of the box. Most are comprably accurate if they are in good shape without obvious bedding issues and with good bores and the right ammo. In my case, more accurate than the shooter :)
Charon
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Originally posted by Charon
No problem. I am still VERY new to this myself. But you have to get up on the learning curve with these things pretty quickly before you start spending the cash, because it’s easy to make bad moves or at least not the best moves. I don't have an unlimited budget either, and would like to build up a nice shooter collection on the cheap with the most bang for the buck (pun intended), so I try to make every dollar count.
I wouldn’t even think of getting into matching German rifles or US Rifles (short of CMP) or “snipers” at this point since they cost Boo Coo $$$$ and there are a lot of fakers or “humpers” out there stamping up that $4,000 “all matching SS Sniper” on Gunsamerica or "Winchester M1 cartouced stock" on E-bay. Too much money and too much experience required to spot the fakes and if you do get an original real deal, probably too valuable to want to shoot all that much.
Here are some good sites with good forums, in order of my general perceived quality of information:
http://www.gunboards.com/ (heavy Finn Mosin Nagant focus, but very good coverage of everything else too)
http://p077.ezboard.com/bparallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums (probably need to register with Ezboard. Good coverage, don’t even think of discussion permanent sporterizing)
http://www.jouster.com/ (Excellent US rifle coverage boards, good everything else)
http://www.surplusrifle.com/ (Nice articles at main site, OK boards from a knowledge standpoint)
http://p223.ezboard.com/bcurioandrelicfirearmsforum (Good forums, not as active as some)
http://thefiringline.com/forums/index.php (Mainstream board, pleny of bubbas and "mall rangers" but pretty entertaining at time)
http://www.ar15.com/forums/ (not an Evil Black Rifle guy myself -- yet, BUT… the hometown forums give good coverage of pending state laws. Especially the case since “EBRs” are usually high on the target list.
The various boards are very informative about the hobby, but not quite as stimulating or diverse as the O'Club where general discussions are concerned - to put it mildly :) Actually, the researching and gun board surfing, buying and cleaning and occasional 2.5-hour round trip to shoot has eaten up a lot of my AH time this past year. I think I have found my Golf… Unfortunately, not a lot of friends in the area who I grew up with who have any background with firearms from military service or anything else.
Charon
I'm new to it also.. and learning more all the time. I have a voracious reading appetite, and while I can 'shoot' pretty well, I'm not gifted with anything more than paitence. I am fascinated by the relationship between the weapon and the shooter, and really appreciate the brilliance of thinking and clarity of design and execution these old military rifles represent.
Funny how our brains are running parallel tracks... I'd have had nothing more than a passing information point of interest in the german and russian rifle designs if the price relationship between them and comparative American weapons and ammo were not so incredibly vast.
For me the pressing limitation is economy (for now) and I'm looking for a 'long gun' shooter for the shooting aspect.. not the collecting aspect. I find the 'purists' that bemoan the 'bubbafication' of a military rifle kinda funny... one guy griping about a big old springfield on a montecarlo stock with a scope was driving a carved up Satellite Serbing. Wus ok to 'bubbafy' his classic mopar, but a travesty to improve the useability of an old military rifle that's more plentiful than volkswagons in mexico. ;)
I even have the same range problem you got... firing a rifle ANYWHERE on Long Island is expressly verboten.. have to drive about an hour to a public range that has a 250 yard target line. Pricey on gas, $10.00 4 hour range fee... makes it even more pressing to get the most 'bang for the buck' with an accurate shooter. I thought it was 'repressive' here.. Chicago's (and Illinois) legal persecution of shooters is legend. Takes a determined man to pursue the hobby there...
And again.. thanks for the links and research info.. damn that was finest kind!
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It's not that Sporting out a rifle ruins it's value. Or isn't that useful.
It's just that it's fuggin ugly.
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LOL.. nothin much uglier than a straight military stock that's split, dented and weak from split wrists and unserviceable bedding. Even a 1903A3 on a C stock looks and shoots a heluva lot better than a straight stock WWI version.
But that's just me.. the beauty is in the functionality. Not in worn out stocks and sights that limit practical use to 300 yards when the gun can drive tacks at 600 with a decent scope.
Collectors collect.. shooters shoot. Functional beauty for me follows form of use and realization of potential. Like Charon mentioned.. my ideal rife is one that shoots better than I can.
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hang.. I bought one of the mitchells mausers when they were $275 they have gone up. I was not disapointed. it was made in 1945 using german tooling. The gun apears to have never been fired and is mint. The accessories include tin oil and solvent bottles, cartrige boxes and a new bayonet and sheath and issue cleaning kit. and... a very good manual as well as certificate of authenticity.
In all respects the rifle is a 98k... parts are interchangeable but... It isn't gonna be like a late war slave made 98 that may blow up in your face.. They are excellent shooters that look brand new and I am sure that they will continue to appreciate in value but it is really neat to have a brand new 98.
I have other mausers that are from "good" to decent shape.. One guns shop sporter that probly sold for $25 in the sixties that has cut down and filled military stock and redfield peep sight.... stock stepped barrel and all... but a great shooter.
lazs
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Well, M48s and K98s do not have interchangable parts. They have entirely differnt actions - a shorter "intermediate" with the M48. And, the earliest production year of the yugo M1948 (1948 model year) rifle was 1950. I understand they have some production markings that can be confusing and suggest an earlier year.
Mitchells have nice clean polished m48s with a good presentation kit. But they are not WW2 production, not interchangable with K98ks and typically worth less once they leave the door, unless you find someone that likes a nice polished rifle. If you do, by all means sell it because you may have trouble finding the next one. They have no practical collectors value, though many purists would argue the same for the RC "parts guns." Though one recently sold for $500 which caused quite a stir at gunboards. M48s are great, practical shooters though, particularly at $119. My earlier link covered it, but here's some more:
NO RIFLE MARKED 'M-48' WAS EVER MADE DURING WWII. ‘48’ DENOTES YEAR OF ADOPTION (1948).
All Yugoslavian Mauser rifles bearing 'M-48' markings were made in Yugoslavia at the Preduzece 44 (Zastava) factory. While it is true an extremely small number of prototypes were made during the Second World War, none of these research prototypes were ever marked 'M-48'. So far as we are aware, there are no prototypes for sale anywhere in North America - or, for that matter, anywhere else in the world - and if there were one, the asking price would be understandably quite high as a prized collectors' item - and its markings definitely different from those of the M-48 series.
These rifles are readily available in as new, un-issued condition. It is conceivable that a very small number of M-48s are arsenal refinished and some are available used, however these would definitely stand out from the rest since they would all bear unique ‘arsenal refinished’ markings. We have sold both un-issued and used condition M-48s (offering each in accurately-graded condition).
The M-48 is very similar to the German Mauser K-98 save for the much finer craftsmanship and materials used in comparison with later-WWII German rifles. Practically all parts of the M-48 are crafted from milled as opposed to stamped steel. Typically the Mauser M-48 series rifles will be offered with a Yugo-made bayonet copied from the early pattern German K-98 wood-handled bayonet (a barrel support ring was added to the Yugo version).
COMPARISON OF FLOOR PLATES
Yugoslavian Model M-48A Mauser Rifle
This is the first major variant of the Yugoslavian M-48 Mauser pattern rifle. In order to reduce production costs without compromising quality, the Preduzece 44 (Zastava) factory introduced stamped barrel bands, trigger guards, and floor plates, the latter (along with the 'M-48A' receiver markings) being the main distinguishing feature between this rifle and the earlier M-48'
Yugoslavian Model M-48B Mauser Rifle
This is the second and last variant of the M-48 series, also produced by Zastava, made extensive use of stamped metal parts. All other specifications are identical to the others in the M-48 series or differ in such minute ways as to be deemed insignificant. Naturally the receiver markings are 'M-48B'.
Yugoslavian Model M-48BO Mauser Rifle
These rifles, of which only a few thousand were produced, are a very obscure and interesting anecdote of history. 'BO' stands for 'bez oznake’, which means 'without markings' as these rifles have NONE save for a serial number!
The M-48BO is a true early example of a 'sanitized' weapon: there are no markings present anywhere on the rifle except a couple serial numbers. They are not even marked 'M-48'! Our sources from within the (former) Yugoslavian military state the 'BO' rifles were intended for sale to Egypt, but even the paltry few thousand which were at that point ready for initial delivery to that country could not be shipped due to the onset of the Suez Crisis of 1956. No more were produced for reasons outlined in the following paragraph.
Following the Suez Crisis, most of the world's armies (including Egypt and Yugoslavia) phased out bolt action rifles in favour of self-loading (semi-auto) or fully automatic infantry service rifles. The M-48BO was thus relegated to the storehouse and left in packing crates until we discovered them in a forgotten corner of a warehouse a couple years ago.
This might be useful to establish a date from the serial #
The Yugoslavs produced about 52,000 M48s in 1950, about 92,000 in 1951....and about 94,000 in 1952. The changeover to the M48a occured in 1952...so no M48s were produced after 1952. If your serial number is lower than 52,000, whether it has a letter prefix or not....this would reinforce the idea that your rifle is from 1950. The walnut stock (especially given that it is original) almost certainly dates the rifle to 1950 - probably among the first few "runs" of 10,000. That is as close as anyone can get. http://www.gunboards.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=117524
I believe some people confuse the factory code, for example, Preduzece 44, with a production year. Similarly, the Yugos scrubbed and restamped their captured German K98ks as RHINO showed, but I'm not aware of Mitchells selling any.
BTW Lazs, what evidence do you have of the late war K98ks blowing up? I've seen this discussed a several times and it is usually easily dismissed as urban legend, other than some finishing and simplification issues.
Charon
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Collectors collect.. shooters shoot. Functional beauty for me follows form of use and realization of potential. Like Charon mentioned.. my ideal rife is one that shoots better than I can.
Ahh, But I like to combine the two. I never purchase a rifle that I dont intend on shooting. All of mine are collectable and are all shooters. I see no reason to own\collect a non-functional gun.
As for the M48, I picked up a non-fired M48BO "Without Markings". The gun is just same as brand new. It is one of my favorites. As far as quality tho, the German K98s just feel better IMHO. The actions are much smoother and an overall better quality weapon.
Now if you want old world quality out of a Yugo model go look at the M24/47's. still a short action mauser but action is as slick as the 98k. I have one of these that I call another one of my favorites to shoot. It has the best action out of all except the Czech 98/22s.
Lazs those parts are for the most part non interchangeable. The bolt/action is about 1/8" shorter. The only parts I can think of that will swap out would be the trigger and sight hood.
I understood the slave weapons to be of a very high quality. I know very late in the war some tried sabatoge on the weapons but most slaves were in fear of their lives if they made mistakes. I may be remembering that wrong tho, I havent done any reading on it in a while. If you have a link I would appreciate it...never to old to learn about history.
Hang, be careful with this C&R stuff. It can become quite addictive. Before you know it you will have an FFL and the UPS man will know you by first name. Really a cool feeling to see the BBT pull up an open another present. Makes me want to order one now. I sure could use one each of the AIM Shooter specials :cool:
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Here's an exhaustive discussion of Mitchells mausers. If it's your rifle and you like it... more power to you. $275 wouldn't get you near the quality today at Wally World.
http://www.gunboards.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=106432&SearchTerms=mitchells,mausers
But, if someone is interested in a "historical" or poternially collectable or cheaper shooter mauser -- there are plenty of altrnatives.
Charon
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I am not interested in the historical aspect or the rise in value. Fact is the 48's are probly more rare than the zillions of 98's tho.
the gun is nice to look at and to shoot. It seemed to be in unfired condition to me and has risen in value... the 98's I have owned have never gone up and are pretty beat.
I switched the ejector and bolt release and two piece bolt cover and spring with no problem to a broken 98. The mitchel gun outshoots 3 98's that friends have and looks like a brand new gun. You can buy all the accesories that come with the mitchel gun for around 50 bucks tho if you shop around.... a little more if you want the kind of quality that came with this gun...
All in all... I think it is a great value.
all the numbers match.. I can't help but think all the sour grapes from advertisers on the gun boards is just that. 20 years from now people will probly be looking for a good mitchells gun.
if you paid a gunsmith 200 bucks to restore your 200 buck 98 it wouldn't come out as nice.
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Hangtime, here in Miami there is an outfit called Samco Global Arms, Inc. They maintain a huge warehouse of mostly mausers or deriviants. currently they have some really nice persian mausers as well as yugo M24/47s. you may find stuff there in the 100.00 range. their phone number is 1-800-554-1618
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Hang, be careful with this C&R stuff. It can become quite addictive. Before you know it you will have an FFL and the UPS man will know you by first name. Really a cool feeling to see the BBT pull up an open another present. Makes me want to order one now. I sure could use one each of the AIM Shooter specials
Rhino.. yep, I'm 'hooked'. On the other hand, I'm already hooked on another addictive hobby that I turned into a business. I'm pretty sure I can keep this under control.. particularly since a C&R and FFL leaves me bent over and exposed to a no-knock visit at some point in the future.
Which is another reason I'm interested in the Finn M39.. the ones I'm looking at are beyond the prevue of any federal oversight. (pre 1898 receivers) Also.. I'm on a very tight budget; makes it damn near impossible to justify expenditures when my hobby marketing business is on it's butt.
Of course, if I got an FFL; I COULD turn this latest hobby into a profitable business, one that's getting stonger right now, actually sales go up as the economy winds down.. .... but then the Feds would be up my ass...
ARRRGH
Rhino, you RAT bastard..... damn you all to hell...
;)
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Originally posted by storch
Hangtime, here in Miami there is an outfit called Samco Global Arms, Inc. They maintain a huge warehouse of mostly mausers or deriviants. currently they have some really nice persian mausers as well as yugo M24/47s. you may find stuff there in the 100.00 range. their phone number is 1-800-554-1618
LOL.. I was up till 2:00am last night checking their (samco's) listings... cursed myself as an idot on the way to bed "dummy, you got NO spare cash to dump on this stuff right now.."
But, thanks for the tip! (does an addict thank the guy that ties him off?)
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8mm mauser ammo is the best deal in center fire full power battle rifle ammo right now... that part is very important.
I am pretty much forced to reload my ought six for the garand.
lazs
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Yup.. 8mm ammo can be had pretty cheap. So can 7.62 x 54.. they are both within a few cents of each other in the 800-1000 round quantities.
Know whatcha mean about the 30-06.. guy I talk to out at the range always brings his Mauser and his garand.. puts 20 thru the garand and a hundred thru the mauser.. same cost. ;)
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yep... can reload ought six for about 200-220 a thousand.. can get "slightly" corrosive korean ought six in 8 round clips for about $180 a thousand... that's fine so long as you spray down the bore with windex after a session and you do end up with a lot of 8 round clips out of the deal..
I wouldn't even bother to reload but I can make 165 grain loads that seem to shoot a lot better than the korean stuff... korean ain't too bad tho.
lazs
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Yup.. corrosive ammo's a problem. looked at a springfield that had a corroded bore.. guy swore he'd never fired any corrosive ammo. I figured that for at least half that rifles service life it fired nothing but corrosive ammo. And that's why I wanna look at whatever I intend to buy.. since most of the former military service weapons in existence were used with corrosive ammo during their service careers.
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As long as the rifle was properly cleaned after each firing there is no problems with corrosive ammo. My Turks which could arguably be the most abused of all the mausers all have mirror bores. Most have the pitting ring around the bolt face from the primers but nothing that is in any way a problem...all minor stuff.
Yes...Stay away from the FFL, I have 1 more year and I will not be renewing. It is hassle to log and keep track of each weapon, but nothing really that bad. I enjoy ordering the weapons and having them show up at the door a few days later. Oh and I get off work early so I dont miss the BBT on the arrival date. Most companies give you the tracking # so you know when to be home.
I have however spent alot of cash on this hobby. Each gun I have will Average about $150 and I have over 30 of them now. Not that big of a deal in cost when you consider a Garand can run you in the thousands. This way I get the cheap ones while they are still available and when my FFL runs out then I will just purchase at shows and throught an FFL. Less hassle that way and no uncles on my back.
The best thing about collecting these is they never go down in value!
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love old bolt action war rifles..i got a 30/40 krag...enjoy that gun alot..with stock sites i can hit a 500 yard target all day at the firing range..using 220 grain bullets<~~makes me mad that no one makes a 220 stock for a 30/40 anymore..i have to reload my own..because a 30/40 doesnt load right with 180..just not as smooth,,it was made for a 220 grain bullet..its so much smoother with the big round..mausers are a good round too..that 8mm is so damn cheap ..compared to my 30/40 which is almost 16bucks a box of 20..lol...if you get a chance check out mitchells mausers..i got to see one at the gun store the other day..way worth it!!..they are reworked and the prettiest mauser i have ever seen..lol well worth the 250 they want for them...they look way better than new:)
and as for sporterised..eeeeeeeeewwww..g ross..lol
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back in the 60's a lot of big gun shops "sporteriized" military bolt guns.. they cut down and drilled and filled the stocks and installed decent peeps sights by marvel or redfield or cheap scopes.... they made for very seviceable hunting rifles and often outshot the military example (some had bedded stocks)...
These guns would be in racks by the dozens and would go for the princely sum of upwards to 35-40 dollars.
they had a 55 gallon drum of ammo and a nail scoop looking thing to sell you ammo by the pound.... bout 15-20 bucks a thousand. If one of those old guns turns up... don't turn your nose up at it.. they are great shooters.
lazs
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If one of those old guns turns up... don't turn your nose up at it.. they are great shooters.
You betcha!! I shrug off the wailing of the purists. ;)
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Just got back in town.
I am not interested in the historical aspect or the rise in value. Fact is the 48's are probly more rare than the zillions of 98's tho.
the gun is nice to look at and to shoot. It seemed to be in unfired condition to me and has risen in value... the 98's I have owned have never gone up and are pretty beat...
all the numbers match.. I can't help but think all the sour grapes from advertisers on the gun boards is just that. 20 years from now people will probly be looking for a good mitchells gun.
There's no right or wrong answer at the basic level. Mitchells does provide a like new, polished, commercial quality mauser that will headspace and have an unissued bore. You couldn't find any modern commercial bolt action rifle at near that quality for anywhere near that price. Where people get steamed, is that a lot of novice buyers have been deceived into thinking that somehow they are a WW2 K98k in some form or another. If you read carefully or know the deal you don't get burned, but if you don't, there have been plenty of mistaken purchases by people who had an equal interest in history as well as finish and then realize that the history part wasn't what they though. Not illegal, just a bit of a cheezy way to sell a few more rifles.
As for value appreciation... History seems to be a strong driver and M-48s don't really have any. Particularly since most of the hot action is in ex Third Reich and US Weapons. M48s are somewhat rare, but not that rare and there are plenty of "very good +” examples on the market that people only paid $119 for and can be made excellent with 8 hours of elbow grease.
But then, unless you really collect the all matching, not rearsenaled, excellent condition, really rare US or German arms, or with provable historical provenance -- none will pay for retirement. I believe "pure" collectors don't even care about bore condition, since that isn't a value driver and many don't even shoot their collector firearms. And a lot of people "collect" in large numbers what are financially considered to be just "shooters."
I will say though, that $200 cleaned up RCs are getting $350 - $400 from one dealer at the Lakemoor gun show I hit on occasion, with what is probably 8 hours worth of work and $10 in stock bleach. One just sold on an auction site for $500 (which caused much shaking of heads as being ridiculous by the same people on those gunboards). They don't (for the most part) see either Mitchells or RCs as being in near the same league as an all matching, or mostly matching vet bring back in even fair condition.
if you paid a gunsmith 200 bucks to restore your 200 buck 98 it wouldn't come out as nice.
Different strokes for different folks. I wouldn’t pay $100 for that $400 “restored” rifle or a Mitchell's Mauser. Others would :)
I see history in the wear or tear and that is equally important to me as bore condition (as long as it is sound and functional) -- obviously YMMV.
My russian capture K98k was the lower of the two grades offered that was "almost" as nice for $150 and a good bore. I paid for a hand pick, not on appearence or code, but on a good solid see action war year. I was really going to clean up my 1942 Saur & Sohn (some people have achieved amazing results with just a good base stock, wood bleach and a coat of tongue oil afterward), but then you realize that the stain around the wrist came from German sweat and Russian soil, and fear and terror and victory and defeat. The quick march to the gates of Moscow and the brutal retreat back to the streets of Berlin. The banks of the Dnieper, Stalingrad, Kursk… So I stopped the scrubbing, did very light sanding just to cut down a few splinters in the lamination, coated it with some Walnut oil and wondered how I could have even considered cleaning it off in the first place (though I had no problem with that cold war russian shellac which makes me a "bubba" in the eyes of a purist shooter-collector).
Charon
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I enjoy my hobbies and pursue them to please myself. Not others.
As such, the naysayers don't annoy me at all.. we had one guy that butchered a really nice scale airplane then to add insult to injury to the 'purists' at the field... he flew it in a most unscale- like manner.
When he landed, I walked right up to the guy and said in a most loud & confrontational tone... "how dare you invest your money in that fine model and butcher it's appearance with that hokey covering scheme? And then fly it like that.. flinging it all over the sky! you should be drumed outta the club.. outta the hobby! How DARE you spend your money and and invest your time doing what makes YOU happy instead of all of us (thumb hooked over shoulder at the 'purists') here in the peanut gallery?"
The 'purists' shut the hell up, everybody else got a good laugh.
Screw 'em. Do what makes you happy and you don't ever have to justify a damn thing to anybody else.. unless you want to.
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charon... you are kidding yourself if you think a 150 buck 98k is as nice as the mitchel gun... Have you ever actually seen one?
A little elbow grease? you are kidding ritght? if you bought $50 worth of restorantion and cleaning products and worked like a dog for about 20 hours and didn't make any mistakes and the stock wasn't oil soaked and and and.... you may end up with a mauser that is about 75% as nice (as new) as the mitchells one. I know... I used to buy mausers by the dozen when they were like $20 in the sixties and every gun store had a few dozen to choose from.
a bright clean bore doesn't mean the barrel isn't shot out for instance..
as for historical? what is historical other than history... the 48's have a very interesting history and they won't be making any more of em.
If all you want is a fine example of a 98 and you can't afford many guns... the mitchell isn't for you but.... I have the add and literature for the thing... they are most certainly not trying to fool anyone.
lazs
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charon... you are kidding yourself if you think a 150 buck 98k is as nice as the mitchel gun... Have you ever actually seen one?
Yes, I have seen several at gunshows. No, I never said they were as nice. I did say that for people wanting a real, WW2 era German K98K you can get some pretty clean looking results with a nice RC to begin with -- if that's your thing. And RCs are a lot cheaper than the $500 - $4000+ all matching, German "vet bring back" 98ks that also don't look near as nice as a MM. People don't pay $4000 for "nice" they pay that for history and the German Third Reich fascination and an original sniper or SS marking. Nice can certainly add value here, but that usually doesn't even extend to the bore condition from what I can tell. Once they get one they usually put it in the safe.
Here’s is one where the finished pics are missing now, but you can see the before and after cleaning pics (he didn’t even have to bleach the wood). The tongue oil finish he used made it really sharp and sparked some interest in doing that myself. I decided against it.
http://pic14.picturetrail.com/VOL531/2765013/5562315/99731460.jpg
http://pic14.picturetrail.com/VOL531/2765013/5562315/99731467.jpg
http://www.gunboards.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=112537
Another refinished laminate stock half way down the page here under the K98 link (its the light blonde stock): http://64.82.96.51/
There’s another nicely refinished RC down the page here.
http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/showthread.php?t=257519&page=1&pp=30
as for historical? what is historical other than history... the 48's have a very interesting history and they won't be making any more of em.
If all you want is a fine example of a 98 and you can't afford many guns... the mitchell isn't for you but.... I have the add and literature for the thing... they are most certainly not trying to fool anyone.
I would buy a $500 - $700 all matching K98k, if I was comfortable enough it wasn’t a fake or got that “want to get rid of grandpa’s old war rifle” $200 deal. But, because of the significant profits that can be enjoyed with real WW2 German and US weapons, there are a lot of people “humping” these up now. As to MM sales practices… That is no secret at all. They have gotten better though in the past couple of years, in the face of a lot of heat, but here are a few comments (of many) on those practices:
“i would never do business with mitchell's. they may have nice rifles , but their advertising is blatantly misleading, bordering on fraud. there is not one dang thing that is wwII era about their mauser rifles- they were made in 1948 and later, seems to me WWII ended prior to that. i hate crooked, deceptive, lying Mother F______r's. sorry about my venting and language, but i absolutely hate what those crooks have been doing for a long time….”
“which ad, their website which theyve finally relented and changed. or in the gun magazines which in every one the first few words are WWII era mauser rifles. and they make sure to mention the crest on the rifle is dated 1943. plus lets just go into calling it a k98-m48 series rifle. it isnt a k98 so they should not imply that it is, its an m48 and most parts are not interchangeable. soryy to rant but their ad's have torqued me off for a long time, and the ad's are still current as of my new dillons blue press and my issue of GUNS magazine dated december 2004….”
“Those ads are terrible about the K98. They are Yugo m48's and at $299 are way overpriced. I bought my unissued M48 with everything Mitchells show in their ads for $165.
I see they no longer advertise the stocks as being teak. I have never seen teak used on a gun stock, especially a a "wartime" mauser...” http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-22483.html
Or,
Here’s a guy that couldn’t get a bid (with no reserve) on his pristine, unshot, Mitchell’s collector grade for $75 less than the current asking price: http://web2.atlanta.gbhinc.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=35868556
Or,
A variety of earlier claims debunked. They don’t mention Mitchell’s directly, but the ad copy they quote is the same as has been seen from Mitchell’s: http://www.marstar.ca/Yugo-BS.htm
Or,
Here’s a guy who has one, shoots a MM and likes it, but he knows the advertising deal. And some more comments:
Mitchells
Over-priced misleading advertising
They are not WWII K-98's, they were not used in WWII, they are post production rifles, but arguably are the last made and issued bolt action rifles used and commisioned in war.
However, I must say the rifle I got from them is in perfect condition and is a borderline tack driver (I say border line because I can't shoot well enough to confirm it)…
I think most people's problem with Mitchell's is their advertising. You have to read the ads carefully. Read what they actually say, rather than what you think they say. What you're getting are nearly new Mausers. A German World War-II era designed weapon, made on German equipment in Serbia.
Now for a nice, clean, nearly new Mauser with the accessories with it, is $299 too much? Only you can say.
If you want to be a collector as well as a shooter, these are worthless, they have no "history" behind them.
If you just want a shooter and don't care how nice it is or if you don't really want all of the accessories, then buy a cosmoline-loaded Russian capture or Yugo from the milsurp rack and use the $150 you save to buy about 5,000 rounds of ammo. Me? I'd prefer a cosmoline-soaked surplus rifle. But then, I collect as well as shoot, and I have a slight cosmoline Addiction… http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=148357
Or,
Here’s one guy that was confused by mitchell’s.
* The bluing is almost as it was in made in "43" (nope, not made in ’43).
* The teak is in factory new condition not a mark on it. (nope, no Teak used in spite of the ad copy)
* Plus it came with ALL original accessories that was issued at the time to German soldiers. (no German soldiers got “those” parts.)
He was set straight, and is not too upset:
I've since calmed down since my last post and realized that I did buy a good rifle in great working order. With yes a VG bore and I realize what I bought was not a WWII battlefield pickup. I just wanted to own a piece of history. I think the World War II generation was the last greatest generation. The people who fought and died to me are all heroes. I got a little crazy in my last post sorry about that.
But I WILL research a little better before I buy my next Mauser.
Here’s some 2003 ad copy:
Vintage original World War II-era German army rifles are available from Mitchell's Mausers at well below current market prices. At $295 these collector quality 98K series bolt-action Mausers are an outstanding value. Each rifle comes with an accessory package that includes leather sling and keepers, bayonet with scabbard and leather belt hanger, dual leather ammo pouch, cleaning rope, bore brush, brass oil can and muzzle protector. Comes with English language owner's manual. Contact Mitchell's Mausers, P.O. Box 9295, Fountain Valley, CA 92728-9295, telephone: [800] 274-3124, FAX: [714] 44-2226, Website: http://www.mitchellsales.com
There are dozens more. This is not some big secret, and the people speaking out against them are not all jealous owners of crappy, but real, K98ks. Nobody *****es about other sellers of Yugo M48s, that cost less in a similar (but not quite as polished) condition. In fact, they usually admit that MMs are very nice rifles for what they are, if that’s what you are really looking for, compared to what is commercially available at Wal Mart at a comparable price or if you don't want to do any refinishing. It’s the sales practices that set people off.
Charon
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So, I don't have any money right now. I'm just looking for a banger mauser.
Would I be better off going for one of the m48's? Or going for a real K98k?
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Depends on what you want. M-48s will, by and large, be in nicer shape to very nice "unissued" condition. Not an inferior mauser by any means in worksmanship, function, materials, quality etc. Companies like AIM surplus and even Mitchells, if that's your thing, can get you what you want. You can get a good shooter, in VGC for $119.
K98s will vary considerably in appearance and bore condition, but it's not hard to find a solid rifle for $200 (or even $150) or so. It is getting a bit harder, though, but companies like Empire Arms, Cole Dist. and Classic Arms etc. can do you right. No "real" collectors value compared to all matching examples, etc. but the real deal and those markings do carry some long term appeal in the market.
Charon
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charon... I think all the outrage is just..... shrill.
the 48's are 98 pattern guns made on 98 tooling... they are in great new condition... you show a bleached stock that probly the guy will have 20 hours in and... he probly will find that half the stocks he attempts to restore are unrestorable and oil soaked.... if his labor is only worth a few bucks an hour he will end up with a rifle that only cost a little more than a boxed mithchell with accessories.
you are simply quoting the opinions of individuals.... many of whom have ties to other dealers in the pumped up 98 selling racket.
the mitchells are the very last time you will see new mausers for sale and that is really about the size of it... they aren't from the years of the war. they don't have swastikas on em like a few I have (have owned) but.... they are a great looking and shooting rifle that is guarenteed as safe as any new rifle...
If you do buy any used mauser... you should have a gunsmith examine it for headspace and safety etc.. this can run $25-75. the Mitchell is allready inspected and is new.
lazs
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Lazs, I agree with about everything you said but the ad copy/complaint bit. BTW, I did spend $20 for a headspace gauge myself, though there are those who don’t worry about that.
he probly will find that half the stocks he attempts to restore are unrestorable and oil soaked.... if his labor is only worth a few bucks an hour he will end up with a rifle that only cost a little more than a boxed mithchell with accessories.
Maybe so. But then I don’t get the impression the guy is all that interested in owning a Yugo M-48 at the same price. And for others who also want a “real” K98k, Mitchell’s is not an option.
charon... I think all the outrage is just..... shrill.
The ad copy is pretty clear in its attempt to imply K98K - why, because people are interested more in K98ks than they are in Yugo M48s (and the FN M24s the M48 action is actually based on). Here’s the recent lead in ad for the M48s at Mitchell’s.
A “NEW” Mauser, and it’s over 50 years old! A genuine Mauser 98K (1), the Model M48 is the Strongest and Best of the original bolt-action Rifles. Made on German Tooling (2) set up in formerly occupied Serbia. Military-New condition with clean, Bright Bores, and Teakwood stocks, with an American Owner’s Manual covering history, operation, and safety. “Military-New” means it is ready for you; cleaned and tested to assure safety and your satisfaction. Maintained Combat-Ready (and it still is) for over 50 years, now it can be yours. Original Factory matching serial numbers on all rifle parts. Preserved by an accident of history (3), supply is limited. All original accessories as issued at the time and shown here are included. This Mauser is ideal for collecting, target shooting, hunting, or customizing.
1. No, it is considered an entirely different action. More accurate would be: “A genuine FN M24 action.” That is also more rational since it is virtually identical to the M24 made for/in Yugoslavia pre war (with interchangeable parts unlike the K98k) with the same dimensions, special features and improvements that were incorporated in the M48. A point that is only important for marketing, not quality or function. By putting 98K in there it implies a 98K knockoff - when it is a distinctly different M24 knockoff. But, K98k sells a lot better to the History Channel crowd. And not to be confused with the Czech VZ24 that is a K98k action.
2. Not necessarily. Apparently the machinery was all FN supplied in the 1920s, and most of that came from varied sources, such as WW I German reparations etc, but also from elsewhere (Belgium, Switzerland, USA, England etc) -- so yes, and no.
3. Removed from the recent copy was a previous statement: “… as they were intended to be issued in WWII.” In a future WW3 would be more appropriate, since production started in 1950 after approval in 1948. Again, this is not a new issue or a single mistake or a few disgruntled grouches.
To be fair, they have added this disclaimer below it:
Some people may be getting the mistaken impression that these rifles were manufactured by Germans during the occupation. That is not the case. These rifles were manufactured with German technology in Serbia after the people had driven the Germans out of Yugoslavia.
This is an important distinction, because that is one of the reasons why the Model 48 is recognized as a superior example of the K98 type military rifle. The factory in Serbia was not bombed, like the German factories during the war. The factory in Serbia had a good supply of raw materials. And the Model 48 was produced by free people, instead of forced labor. All of which resulted in a superior rifle in its own right, as well as an interesting piece of history.
And it’s not just bitter RC K98k owners or “competitors” (only one I listed would even remotely have a business bias) but people who have bought and buy M48s themselves. Here’s a nice M48 WG&A was selling for $150 that the new owner spent 2 hours cleaning up and adding a coat of tongue oil. http://www.warrifles.com/forums/printthread.php?t=13846&pp=20
Here are his views on Mitchell’s. They about sum up the views of many have expressed on the subject (who haven’t already dropped $300 on one :))
As I stated in my previous post, my M48 was a 100% unissued rifle... once I got all of the cosmoline off the stock and metal parts and applied a few fresh coats of tung oil (a couple of hours' work), the rifle looked like it was made yesterday. "Unissued" generally means "unissued." Everything looks brand new -- mirror bright bore, tight action, perfect headspace, yadda, yadda, yadda. I don't doubt that the Mitchell's rifles are any different than mine -- theirs were made in Yugoslavia... mine was made in Yugoslavia. As I said before, the part that gets me is the outrageous price. But some folks don't care how much they spend, and that's definitely their prerogative.
My dislike with Mitchell's is purely a matter of principle. They're selling the same milsurp rifles that are available everywhere else, except they're charging 2x-3x more since they cleaned them up. And they do tend to bend the facts in their advertising (i.e. a Yugo M48 is not a Mauser K98). But I'm sure the products are the same quality as what I have in my collection.
There's a reason why experienced collectors avoid Mitchell's... and it's not because experienced collectors aren't interested in mint condition (or awfully close to it) milsurps. Experienced collectors know what Mitchell's has, they know what other dealers have, and they know the market value of those items. Mitchell's doesn't fair very well with experienced collectors for that reason and for their questionable advertising.
But, again, America is still a (mostly) free country, so folks are free to buy their milsurps wherever they want. You'll get no argument out of me on that one. :)
And this guy in the same thread.
I agree with you Greg. I bought an M48 at a gun show that looks like it was made yesterday for $150.00. It's perfect in every way 100% rfinish not one stock ding, perfect bore and headspace. What I found more shocking was the price on their Lugers and P 38s. The Lugers have obviously been re-finished, thereby really ruining the value. I've been collecting P08s and P 38s for 40 years. I know what I'm talking about.
Mitchell’s is still a great deal at $300 compared to a Remchester, a better deal at $150 but no deal at all for anyone that wants an actual K98k. Intentional or not (and I believe it is clearly intentional) the MM ad copy does confuse people, including some in this thread. It was not made in 1943 or 1945, it is not an interchangable K98k action (M24) it was not a WW2 gun in any form, it may not even be fully produced (or even mostly produced) on German machining. Small points, unless those are important to the individual, and generally bad form ethically.
Charon
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This discussion has actually made me a bit more interested in picking up an unissued m48 and one of those Yugo refurb K98ks with the better stocks and/or metal. I can see how the collecting bug can get out of hand in a hurry.
Charon
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The bug can bite hard, be careful This was the less than the first year of my collecting and have doubled this in the second year. Only prob is you start running out of cheap ones to add to collection and the $$$ goes up.
Needless to say my collecting has decreased in recent months.
Notice the M48BO all matching 3rd from right. Not a MM but it "Was" unfired and much cheaper. Shoots nice also. The Yugo 24/47 4th from right is also a nice shooter, better than the M48. My favorite is 2nd from left Czech 98/22 a real tack driver! The two Yugo capture K98s are in the center right. They still have some waffenamps on them where they missed them durring the scrub.
1st on left is a Czech VZ24 that has blood pitting on Bayo and rifle. A very sobering scene when I pulled it out of the box. You know without a doubt it has seen action. History yes, but probably the ending of two lives recorded on this gun forever. I know I will never restore this one.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v113/kevykev/GunLineup004.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v113/kevykev/GunLineup005.jpg)
I need to get the guns out and take a new picture. I have posted this before so disregard if you have seen them.
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Nice collection! I kind of figured I would be happy with one good one each. But I can also see getting a WW1 lithgow SMLE to go with my WW1 BSA SMLE (Aussies had some great history), maybe a Savage No4, a WW1 G98 mauser... I still have to get a 91/30 and have yet to shoot half the ones I have. Not WW2, but a FAl would be really nice and even an AR-15 (both may be banned but grandfathered in IL one day). An M1A perhaps in a bit (long bit...) SKS (because they're cheap), Makarov (wanted for a while) 1911 (when I sell my PT92c). It would be nice to build up another carbine on my potbelly stock I have sitting around. Have to get another safe soon as well. Got a great deal on a Wally World Sentry for $150 at the very end of hunting season on closeout. So much for a "cheap" hobby :)
Charon
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Man... am I pumped.... just got back from the range.
Here's the Finn M-39 at 200 yards.. this is a 8 1/2 x 11 piece of paper with a pistol target on it.. I run 'em off the printer. The orange bull is 5".
(http://www.hangtimes.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/FinnGroup200y.jpg)
This has the standard Finn open iron sight.. flat line-up with the top of the front sight post flush with the body of the rear sight top frame line. The ammo is Wolf FMJ bi-metalic case, berdan primer 154g 7.62x54r.
To my eye at 200 yards that tiny lil orange dot is just a hint of color on a field of white. The front fight post is about twice as wide as the dot.
This damn 106 year old gun is a tack driver. I've never shot this well in my life before...
damn, i'm stoked!
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The only military surplus rifle I've ever owned was a carbine version of the M96 Swedish mauser in 6.5x55 caliber. It had perfect balance (for me) a decent trigger, and a butter smooth action. The barrel still had about 95% of its bluing and the bore was in good shape. Accuracy was decent, and would probably have improved with a little tweaking.
In a fit of madness, I sold it. I've been kicking myself about it ever since.
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I have a very minor battle rifle collection in my storage vault. Right now the 3 rifles I have from thew WW2 era are an Enfield Mk4 (IIRC), a M-1 Garand and a Carbine as well. The Enfiled was unfired in the cosmoline and was originally an Aussie stored rifle. I've never owned a German rifle but would like to have one or at least shoot one for a while. At this time it is a bit awkward in the RV lifestyle to carry around a significant number of firearms.
From the Nam era I have a SKS (much later production) and an AR15 National Match grade. Not historical but both are very similar to the "real deal". I bought them to enjoy and shoot, not to hang on a wall and just look at. While I understand the purist's position I don't necessarily share it and buy with that in mind. I want to shoot them not just say I have "history" in my collection.
Different strokes and all that. Buy what you want and enjoy it. It IS your money after all.
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Jezezuz.. a Smelly, a Garand and a .45 carbine PLUS an SKS AND an AR15 shooter.
You suck.
Damn, I'm jealous.
And I can' shoot fer **** today.. blew off 70 rounds with about a 10% on the 100 yard range. Couldn't even find the paper at 200.
My arm's sore.
AND my buddies ALL outshot me today with my own damn gun and ammo.
Did I mention 'you suck', Mav?
grrrrrrrrrr
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Hang,
Since I CAN hit my target with those weapons, you can say Sir when you say I suck!
:p :huh :lol
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Great Thread Guys,
Here's my two cents:
1) Totally agree with the comments on the M-39. A great improvement on the Nagant and a "blast" to shoot. Loved it the day I bought it and shoot it often.
2) Consider the P-17 Enfield when looking for US rifles to shoot. Ugly as sin (in my opinion) but accurate and interesting (the one I own has an orange band painted on the stock with "30-06" painted on it - to keep the British soldiers from mistaking it for a .303 P-14 Enfield). I has a Winchester barrell (I got lucky on this) and always raises questions and sparks conversations when I take it to the range.
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Originally posted by Maverick
Hang,
Since I CAN hit my target with those weapons, you can say Sir when you say I suck!
:p :huh :lol
Sir; You suck, SIR!
;)
I'm having problems with my eyes.. left my new glasses home yesterday and frankly, I was not handling the weapon correctly. It is aggravating using the open sight.. the damn thing shoots 5-6" high at 100 yards with this ammo. I do hugely prefer aperature sights over open sights.
I shall adapt and overcome. ;)
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Originally posted by Eden
Great Thread Guys,
Here's my two cents:
1) Totally agree with the comments on the M-39. A great improvement on the Nagant and a "blast" to shoot. Loved it the day I bought it and shoot it often.
2) Consider the P-17 Enfield when looking for US rifles to shoot. Ugly as sin (in my opinion) but accurate and interesting (the one I own has an orange band painted on the stock with "30-06" painted on it - to keep the British soldiers from mistaking it for a .303 P-14 Enfield). I has a Winchester barrell (I got lucky on this) and always raises questions and sparks conversations when I take it to the range.
Thanks Eden!
Tink my next purchase will be a spotting scope and possibly 5 of the M-38 carbines for my buddies.. seems I have a van-load of guys coming out to the range lately, and at about 75 bucks a piece this'll give 'em some 'competition' fun on the 100 yard range.
Gotta buddy with an enfield, gawdafulust ugly implement of destruction I've ever seen.. the MK1's and the P-17's are so damn ugly they're beautiful.
;)
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M-38 is a great idea. I have a couple of M-44s (same basic thing but with a bayonet). Had lots of fun with them at the range. Good to about 200yds (depending on target size). I've shot the heck out of one of them (over 1000rds through it so far - bore still looks good and my gunsmith buddy says it still looks solid).
That reminds me, this is the rifle involved in the story of when I shot surplus ammo and accidentally sent an API (armor piercing incidiary) round down range. Needless to say a fire ensued followed by several minutes of panic and chaos.
TIP: avoid mixed headstamps especially ones in a language you cannot read. Also, avoid ammo with strange colored tips.
:o