Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Chairboy on October 18, 2005, 12:29:16 PM
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Howdy!
As y'all might know, I've got two kids. The oldest, Marcus, is 3.5 and starting to ask questions about how things work, and the wife and I have been discussing a tricky situation: How to handle the 'R' word.
When it comes to religion, we're both very comfortable in our atheism. We have no doubts, the same way most of you do (though perhaps in different directions) on the existence of god.
We've both talked in general about how we planned to let our kids decide for themselves what religions to follow and to make their own informed choices, but as Marcus talks, we're realizing that the original "comprehensive history of religions, basic overviews of theologies, comparative studies" etc etc that we had planned for when the kids were 8-9 years old plan isn't going to be enough, because the kids are going to start asking questions way before they can understand those subjects.
My kids plays with other kids, and sooner or later some kid is going to mention god or jebus or allah or whatever and my son is going to ask me: Who is god?
If I answer "some people believe that there's" and then a definition of God, properly translated for him, he'll still come back and want to know IS there or ISN'T there one? He won't care about conflicting theories, the concept of correlation != causation, etc etc, he'll want to know what mommy and daddy think.
When we first discussed the subject years ago, we decided to 'let the kid choose', but we realize now that the foundation that house is built on is put down really early, in what the kids hear from their parents and what they learn when they're young.
One on hand, we could just say "No, there is no god", then that sorta stacks the deck in favor of atheism for when the kid is older and 'chooses'.
On the other hand.... why should the religious folks get a free pass on indoctrinating their kids and we have to sit back and be respectful? Do we shelve the whole 'let them choose' concept and teach them how we believe, and accept that we're basically making the choice for them the way 99% of religious parents already do every day?
I'd like to hear some thoughts on the subject. I'll have to make the decision with my wife in the end, but if there are any talking points that would help us make this decision, I'd love to hear 'em.
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As much as you think you will be tolerant of your child's choices, I can tell you that you really won't be. The grasp you hold over your child even by actions is amazing. So just keep that in mind.
The best thing you can do (I think) is to do anything the kid asks. If the kid asks what Church is, go to one with him. If the kid asks what the difference is, show him, not tell him.
Just know that you being there and being an atheist has more sway over his religious choices then anything else.
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why are you seeking validation on a bulletin board?
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Regardless of what you say or do, he really will form his own opinion. Your beliefs will always color that, but in what way is up to you.
My parents dragged me to church all the time as a kid, I never wanted to go. As a teenager I found ways to get out of going. As an adult I went even less, if at all. I'm not an Athiest, but I bounced around several different ways trying to figure out what I really believed. I was always sure whatever it turned out to be, it wouldnt be anything like what my parents dragged me to.
I may still not agree with every point of doctrine their church teaches, but my core values have come around to be pretty close to theirs. I came at it from a different direction, but I still arrived in almost the same place.
Parenting questions dont get any eaiser. Good luck.
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At this point, I think it's okay if they share your beliefs. When they get older, they'll be looking for ways to disagree with you anyway.
Don't hide your atheism. Your kids will think it's something they should hide.
...and don't be afraid to allow religion into the house. I'm an atheist. I've got a few bibles, some books on wicca, and even some satanist stuff around here somewhere.
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They can make their own decision when enough information is available.
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tell him your old name used to be jesus that way everything they hear about him he will think it is you and you will be teh man! And when he gets older you can tell him about athiesm. :aok
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If the kids have any brains it wont matter what you tell em......
But, when in doubt let them know all the choices, the pros and cons and let em know you will help em out whenever they need a tie breaker.
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Originally posted by megadud
tell him your old name used to be jesus that way everything they hear about him he will think it is you and you will be teh man! And when he gets older you can tell him about athiesm. :aok
lol, that would be pretty funny :D
when i was younger i walked up to some old guy on the street, and asked if he was jesus. he looked at me like i was some little stunninghunk, and told me to mind my manners :D i was like 3 yrs old :lol
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Yeah, pretty much what we'd discussed too. We definitely won't hide our atheism, and I guess we're not going to be any different from religious families that indoctrinate their kids when they're young, either.
Storch, shush. Your motives in that post are not pure.
I'll talk with wifey more about this when she gets back, I think we've got a plan.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
I got a 5 and a 3.5 year old. I was thinking of letting them grow and letting them chose. I found, that way too many people go out of their way to enforce their belifs on them (school, day care, relatives, friends etc).
So, if you don't tell your kids if there is a god, someone else will. Tell them what you think and as they get older and understand more, tell them that you don't know for sure, or that you do know for sure, or encurage them to search. Just don't let someone else do it for you.
Two things I have found.
1) The more you learn the less you believe
2) If you don't talk to your kids, some one else will. Religius people have no respect for anyones beliefs but theirs. And god told them to spread the word, so get ready for some tough times.
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Gotta remember that his brain is still developing, and abstractions are simply gibberish to him -- they'll be lilke a sunset to a blind man.
But, most kids his age get the idea of "maybe' and "soem people think this" and "we think that."
Seeing where you're coming from, consider being simple but honest. He'd probably be up to something like "some people believe that there is a god who made everything, and others dont think there is a god. Those people think things happen by themselves." If he asks what you believe, tell him.
And remember that kids this age have concrete ideas even when their questoins sound like they're abstract. So, when a 3 year old says "where did I come from" he ususally means what city, not what biologic process. Its OK to give partial answers that meet his cognitive needs now -- and for many kids, you can even say something like "that's a really good question, but its something that is easier to understand when you're a bigger kid" and they'll be cool with it, especially if you give them a technically correct, concrete answer that doesnt necessarily cover everything YOU understand. (For example, out stock answer when our toddlers asked where babies come from -- "when a mommy and a daddy love each other very much, sometimes god gives them a baby." It's not complete, its not even all that accurrate, but its a start and it gave them a concrete answer that satisfied them.)
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Dedalos/Simaril, excellent points, thanks!
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Religion, and God, are personal choices. And it's your job to educate your children on God. Unfort. because you are choosing to NOT provide your kids with a religious life, some one, some where down the line, is going to.
I hope it's not some speaking in tongues, snake dancin' cult one of their friends attends that they go to for the first time after a sleep over. Seen this very situation happen on a couple occasions. The parent didn't provide their kids with a formal religion to follow, so when the child DOES find one, they are hooked instantly. Just pray (errr... oh yeah. n/m on the pray bit)... just HOPE that when they have that experience, they are exposed to a decent type church.
Children need religion. Children need God. You, as an adult, made the decision that you don't. That's fine. You are an adult. But don't do such a horrible thing to your kids. Make sure that your children are informed, and if that means picking out, and attending a church of your choice for the next 10-15 years, well, you could do worse things on a Sunday, and one hour a week to help your children is hardly a huge sacrifice. You as the parent should be more than happy to make such a small sacrifice to help out your kids.
(my 2 cents)
(g/l w/ the snake cult bit in 10yrs)
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Originally posted by WMLute
Children need religion. Children need God.
I never believed in God or Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy. Infact the more my family tried to convince me the more I'd ask questions and not believe them. Children don't NEED[/B] religion. They need loving parents and a stable home and environment to grow. Whether that environment contains any religious teachings makes no difference. Forcing religion on children has become something so indoctrined in our society that it's equivalent to trying to keep Santa Claus out of your house. Too much media and corporate exposure that they would at least ask.
Kids will ask about religion because kids are curious. Kids CAN[/B] make their own choices even at a young age. They ask because they want to know, and they make decisions. I based mine on my own 2 year old logic, I can't speak for any other child what they base theirs on, but the parents are probably a large part of it. That may seem to be a hypocritical statement when paired with what I said in the other paragraph, but my mother and grandparents who raised me also taught me to make my own choices and think through everything I do. I decided that religion didn't fit into my logic matrix when I was younger.
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Originally posted by Munkii
I never believed in God or Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy.
(http://www.make-upworld.com/pix/costumes/large/1655-santa-claus-deluxe.jpg)
he's real dood! :eek:
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Originally posted by Munkii
I never believed in God or Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy. Infact the more my family tried to convince me the more I'd ask questions and not believe them. Children don't NEED religion. They need loving parents and a stable home and environment to grow. Whether that environment contains any religious teachings makes no difference. Forcing religion on children has become something so indoctrined in our society that it's equivalent to trying to keep Santa Claus out of your house. Too much media and corporate exposure that they would at least ask.
Kids will ask about religion because kids are curious. Kids CAN[/B] make their own choices even at a young age. They ask because they want to know, and they make decisions. I based mine on my own 2 year old logic, I can't speak for any other child what they base theirs on, but the parents are probably a large part of it. That may seem to be a hypocritical statement when paired with what I said in the other paragraph, but my mother and grandparents who raised me also taught me to make my own choices and think through everything I do. I decided that religion didn't fit into my logic matrix when I was younger. [/B]
Absolutely agree here. I got kicked out of Sunday School (well not kicked out, they asked my parents not to send me along anymore) because I simply asked to many of those difficult questions.
I was an avid reader as a child, and had read most of HG Wells, Jules Verne, a few Heinlein, and some other good sci fi authors by a fairly young age. About the same time I read the bible. Now my parents were christians, but not staunch christians. So I guess my biblical reading was a bit more abstract than the indoctrinational style the sunday school would've preferred.
My children will get a religious education, but it will be abstract enough that they can make their own decisions.
wmlute, a question, which sect of christianity do you recommend - and how do you know its the right one?
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I didnt get kicked out of sunday school for asking quesitons, I got kicked out for punching the kid across the room in the stomach and dropping him to the floor. That didnt go over well. I do believe in God, but I never did take well to the whole "turn the other cheek" thing. Anyway, that has nothing to do with the conversation. Sorry.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
My children will get a religious education, but it will be abstract enough that they can make their own decisions.
wmlute, a question, which sect of christianity do you recommend - and how do you know its the right one?
excellent question.
I don't advocate any certain denomination over another. It mostly boils down to finding one that you are comfortable with/in, and what "feels" right to you.
I feel that I didn't really explain myself enough in that last post.
As parents, we are here to teach, and guide our children. Not "force" our ideas/opinions upon them. I am a firm believer of leading by example. If I want my two sons to grow into honorable men, I have to show them what an honorable man acts like. It is not easy. I have to make numerous sacrifces, but hey, that's what a Dad does. It's no longer about what is best for me. I lost that option when I became a Dad. It's what's best for THEM. I try to keep that in the forefront of my decisions in life.
In my opinion, a Church is the best place to teach moral values that we have in our society. Thinking that, I felt that it was important to find a church that I was comfortable with, and was full of people I respected. I was lucky and found a Baptist church that was extrememly Biblically based, and practiced what they preach. I have posted here before that it is one of the only churches that you will find in this world, that offers 100% free medical, mental health, and dental services to anyone at all. They pay for a clinic that is staffed by volunteer doctors and nurses (and dentists) that will not accept money for their services. It's called Ministries of Jesus. Here's a quote from their webpage. The Ministries of Jesus is open to everyone seeking help...young, old, rich, poor, insured, uninsured, Christian, non-Christian. The ministry consists of volunteer practitioners dedicated to healing of the body, soul and spirit who donate their time and use their God-given talents to help those in need.
LINK (http://www.hhbc.com/Link.aspx?url=2259&ContentID=3965)
BUT my point is, I found a church that I could get behind, that wasn't just mouthing the words, but backed them up, and that is important to me. My boys are cub scouts (we've won their pine wood derby 3yrs running heh) and that is another place I feel that will instill positive moral values. Just like my church pick, I shopped around a couple scout groups before I found one that fit my needs.
Mostly, it is surrounding your children with positive role models, and morals.
If you can find a better place than a church, GREAT! I have never found anything that comes close, but again, what works for me, isn't going to work for everybody.
I was most encouraged by the original post. It showed me a parent who cares, and is wanting what is best for their child. I only hope they have the will, and intestinal fortitude to make what ever sacrifice they have to make to keep their two children walking down a morally righteous path, and can guide them so they can grow into wonderful adults.
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Chair, I'm going to recommend you try a different forum:
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/index.php
Look and post in the sub-forum called Secular Lifestyle. I've frequently seen other non-theist parents asking this same question in this sub-forum.
My $.02: When they ask about God(s), be factual about other's beliefs, ie "many people in America believe that there is a powerful person that created everything and can do anything and knows everything and who lives in a place called Heaven...etc (fill in whatever parts of the mythology you think is appropriate)." If your kids ask if it is true and you want them to be able to decide on their own when the time is right, tell them that you "don't know if it is true or not...God can't be seen or heard in the way you can see or hear Mommy or me. But many people think he must be real and they have faith that He is real even though they can't see or hear Him."
Good luck...
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why chairboy whatever do you mean?
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My kid was baptised, went to sunday school, received communion. Neither her mother or myself were in the slightest bit 'religious'. Didn't stop us from going to church while she was in her Sunday School years. Initially this was a source of great friction between the wife and I.. she wanted none of it. Being something of an opportunist, I wanted my kid to have every possible advantage of a balanced education and I felt that exposure to religion in the presence of her peers (and ours) was better than most other forms of exposure.
We were frank, but uncommital on religious or secular questions. Our answers sounded surprisingly like Simarils.. we let her make up her own mind. We encouraged her to ask questions, refused to ridicule the church or the programs (despite my personal distaste for the stuff). When she was 19 or so she said 'thanks' for making her do the Sunday School thing.. she at least understands what it's all about and can hold her own easily in a theological debate.
Shes also (currently) an agnostic, which annoys her mother no end. Of course her mother would call documented proof of the second coming Republican Propoganda orchestrated by Hollywood Sellouts.
My kid and I??? Well, we're awaiting proof still.
;)
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"When it comes to religion, we're both very comfortable in our atheism. We have no doubts, the same way most of you do (though perhaps in different directions) on the existence of god."
This is one thing I've never really understood. How can anyone have no doubts about this particular subject? No matter which side you choose to believe, you can't prove it and thus can't objectively be "sure". It's a leap of faith regardless.
As far as your kids go, teach them whatever your conscience is most at ease with. They're your kids. Odds are no matter what you teach then, they'll develop their own religious philosophy anyway.
J_A_B
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Click (http://www.liquidgeneration.com/thru/cThru.aspx?4k5zex8p9hpcaaxc,14)
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Originally posted by Larry
Click (http://www.liquidgeneration.com/thru/cThru.aspx?4k5zex8p9hpcaaxc,14)
:lol
PS Jesus was not white as portrayed in all euro arts, ect. I'll guess he looks like umm Middle Eastern guy (black hair with Arab features)
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Easy.
Honesty.
You may be an athiest, but you can't say empirically that there is no God. You have your suspicions, but you don't know.
"I don't know" says you.... "I really don't think so, but, I don't know. As far as I'm concerned, nobody does, one way or the other."
That's honest, right? And that's all you can possibly do.
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Question, Nash, do the christian parents here do the same thing?
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Doubt it.
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Then why does my 'religion' have to take one on the chin? That's one of the things I'm conflicted about.
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It doesn't, though.
Their kids end up with dogma, your kids up with reason and critical thinking.
If that reason leads them to religion - so be it.
Either way, they are miles ahead of the other kids.
I think the trick is in showing your own sense of critical thinking when talking about it with them. Not a sense of this is the way it is..... but.... it's a good question, worthy of thought .
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A thinking point....
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tell them this is it and that nothing really matters as in less than 80 years probably they will be in a hole in the ground with worms crawling out of their eyesocks so live life as you are dying, grab all the gusto you can as you only live once - right??
lol lol lol
the fact that you ask such a question on an internet bbs indicates to me that you have doubts yourself
I would inform them of the concept of a God or Universal Oneness and let them figure it out for themselves and that your belief is in the minority in this country if not the world
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Originally posted by WMLute
excellent question.
I don't advocate any certain denomination over another. It mostly boils down to finding one that you are comfortable with/in, and what "feels" right to you.
I feel that I didn't really explain myself enough in that last post.
As parents, we are here to teach, and guide our children. Not "force" our ideas/opinions upon them. I am a firm believer of leading by example. If I want my two sons to grow into honorable men, I have to show them what an honorable man acts like. It is not easy. I have to make numerous sacrifces, but hey, that's what a Dad does. It's no longer about what is best for me. I lost that option when I became a Dad. It's what's best for THEM. I try to keep that in the forefront of my decisions in life.
In my opinion, a Church is the best place to teach moral values that we have in our society. Thinking that, I felt that it was important to find a church that I was comfortable with, and was full of people I respected. I was lucky and found a Baptist church that was extrememly Biblically based, and practiced what they preach. I have posted here before that it is one of the only churches that you will find in this world, that offers 100% free medical, mental health, and dental services to anyone at all. They pay for a clinic that is staffed by volunteer doctors and nurses (and dentists) that will not accept money for their services. It's called Ministries of Jesus. Here's a quote from their webpage.
LINK (http://www.hhbc.com/Link.aspx?url=2259&ContentID=3965)
BUT my point is, I found a church that I could get behind, that wasn't just mouthing the words, but backed them up, and that is important to me. My boys are cub scouts (we've won their pine wood derby 3yrs running heh) and that is another place I feel that will instill positive moral values. Just like my church pick, I shopped around a couple scout groups before I found one that fit my needs.
Mostly, it is surrounding your children with positive role models, and morals.
If you can find a better place than a church, GREAT! I have never found anything that comes close, but again, what works for me, isn't going to work for everybody.
I was most encouraged by the original post. It showed me a parent who cares, and is wanting what is best for their child. I only hope they have the will, and intestinal fortitude to make what ever sacrifice they have to make to keep their two children walking down a morally righteous path, and can guide them so they can grow into wonderful adults.
Can you acknowledge that one does not need a believe in God to have morals? What is wrong with you that makes you unable to do the right thing without the fear of eternal damnation. If it is the fear of eternal damnation that keeps you straight then you are not what you would like to think you are afterall.
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Originally posted by Eagler
your belief is in the minority in this country if not the world
McDonalds is the most popular restaurant in the world. Sure doesn't mean that it's cuisine.
Helpful as always, Eagler.
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Originally posted by WMLute
In my opinion, a Church is the best place to teach moral values that we have in our society.
I would think the church is one of the worst examples of morale values in our society.
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Originally posted by Eagler
the fact that you ask such a question on an internet bbs indicates to me that you have doubts yourself
Why is the medium important?
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Originally posted by Sandman
Why is the medium important?
Well there are FDB's here for a start :)
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Well there are FBB's here for a start :)
It could be worse. :)
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Hey.
I resemble that remark.
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Originally posted by Nash
Easy.
Honesty.
You may be an athiest, but you can't say empirically that there is no God. You have your suspicions, but you don't know.
"I don't know" says you.... "I really don't think so, but, I don't know. As far as I'm concerned, nobody does, one way or the other."
That's honest, right? And that's all you can possibly do.
Nash I think you're describing Agnosticism, not Atheism.
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in a sense being an Atheist is a religion.. kinda ironic.
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Well that's true.
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Godless heathens like you shouldnt be allowed to raise children!
;)
Just kidding Chairboy, do what you and your wife feel is morally right and decent and your kids should be fine. But dont doubt for second that the kids will pick up on your beliefs early on and prolly go exactlty opposite at say 16 years old.
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Hi Chair,
By an odd providence, I'm late getting to this particular thread because I was writing an article on the Christian doctrine of children in the church.
As you are probably know by now, I was raised in a non-Christian family, and attended church very irregularly if at all. Neither of my parents believed the bible to be true, but would have affirmed the idea that there are "some good and possibly helpful things in there" mixed in amongst all the fairy-tales, and that it is important for people to "have morals." These two principles would probably have summed up the religious views of most of the people in the community in which I was raised, including the people who attended the mainline congregations and synagogues on a more regular basis. However, the careful observation that only children are really capable of, quickly persuaded me that regardless of what people said they believed about the importance of "having morals", it was actually the case that they believed that other people should have morals, while they themselves should be allowed to affirm that they had morals but generally do whatever seemed right to them at the time. So for instance, almost everyone would have affirmed that adultery was bad, but in actual practice the rule was that adultery was bad, unless that is they were allowed to participate.
In other words, while affirming various non-controversial, non-fundamentalist beliefs about God, Morals, and Religion the general rule was "everyone did what was right in his own eyes." This was true whether the person in question would have identified themselves as Catholic, a Methodist, a New-Ager, a Buddhist, a Jew, an agnostic and so on. They all generally conformed to the homogenous middle-class "do as I say, not as I do" morals of that particular part of American society, and their kids quickly caught on to how the game was played and outwardly conformed in the same ways themselves. The actual societal situation is described with uncanny accuracy by C.S. Lewis in his "Pilgrim's Regress" That is not to say that there weren't a few exceptions to the rule on both sides. For instance, I never bothered making much of an attempt at pretending to be good or moral, and just did whatever I wanted to from the word go. That approach has become quite a bit more popular since I was a kid, incidently, especially as the conforming influence of the mainline Christian denominations has continued to wane and the influence of post-modern thought and situational ethics has become more pervasive.
I raise this to set the stage for a few points. Unless they are provided with a viable, consistent, and robust alternative, your children will have a natural tendency to absorb the morals and religious thinking of the surrounding culture. Peer pressure tends to greatly assist in that process. So unless you raise them in a self-consciously counter-cultural manner, you can expect them to absorb the worldview of their peers. In other words, unless they are really immersed in a different point of view at home and are willing to take a lot of guff for being weird, their beliefs will look a lot like the belief system in place at the local middle and high-school, it may change in college as they are immersed in a new and particularly persuasive culture, but chances are there won't be a radical change.
Also, please don't think for a moment that your children are in much danger of becoming evangelical Christians in their youth if you aren't - even if you were to drop them off at the local Evangelical church every Sunday. Both experience, surveys, and even the bible indicate that children learn their religion at home, and the vast majority of children dumped at Sunday School by their non-attending parents go on to be non-religious, non-attenders themselves. They may learn some of the lingo, but very few are converted. Statistically speaking, more are converted as adults than by that approach. Even amongst those converted via involvement in most Christian youth groups (such as Young Life) usually via a response to an emotional appeal, less than 14% join churches in their adult life. More often than not, they were converted to the experience in the youth group not genuine Christianity.
Finally along those lines, what you tell them will be far less influential than what you "show them" as you live in front of them, so faking a faith that doesn't actually captivate your own heart is also usually a monumental failure - they naturally tend to grow up to be like who you are, not who you pretend to be.
All that to say that unless you yourselves are marvelously converted Chairboy (and I never give up hope ;) ), you can expect your children to grow up to be religiously a blend of you and the surrounding culture (although most parents are themselves more like the surrounding culture than they appreciate or would care to admit, if you doubt this ask yourself, are you radically different from the inhabitants of the surrounding homes or cubicles at work?). Guys like me (and the majority of the members of my congregation) who became evangelicals later in life are definitely not the norm.
Here endeth the sociological section. Now for a brief biblical explanation of why the above is the case for the benefit of anyone crazy enough to still be reading at this point. Genuine conversion to Christianity implies a real change of heart, called regeneration and is something that only the Holy Spirit can effect. It also doesn't happen without means, in other words, it ordinarily accompanies the preaching of the gospel. If the child in question isn't being exposed to the gospel (i.e. and by that the bible means the good news of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ, not morality tales) on a regular basis, you probably won't see a conversion take place. They remain in the state in which they entered into this world (Eph. 2:1-3) and adopt any multitude of other worldviews - but usually tend to remain in the one they grew up in. So the proverb "Train up a child in the way he should go, Even when he is old he will not depart from it." works in both directions.
- SEAGOON
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Now for a brief biblical explanation of why the above is the case for the benefit of anyone crazy enough to still be reading at this point.
You had me at hello.
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I`m always amused by those who state that they are staunch atheist, but seem to fear the words God and Jesus so much. Seems they are not so convinced of their own atheism. If your non-belief is so strong, then why the fear? :)
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"Nash I think you're describing Agnosticism, not Atheism."
Not exactly. A "true" agnostic isn't merely undecided. Rather, the agnostic believes that even if God does exist, God takes no active role in shaping our lives. That is why I try not to use the word agnostic to describe myself, although sometimes I do if I'm in a lazy mood. Unlike the agnostic, I'm perfectly willing to accept that traditional Catholics may in fact be correct. At least, that's what I've always been taught the word means. Others obviously use it as synonymous with "undecided" so I suppose either works.
Seagoon--
Since you're here, there's something I've always wondered about protestants: Why don't protestants believe in the Eucharist?
J_A_B
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Originally posted by Jackal1
I`m always amused by those who state that they are staunch atheist, but seem to fear the words God and Jesus so much. Seems they are not so convinced of their own atheism. If your non-belief is so strong, then why the fear? :)
I've never met a fellow athiest scared of those "words", perhaps you are confusing fear with annoyance at ankle biting christians?
The number of times I've stood in a field with some mate and said "if theres a god may he strike me down now" and its never worked is amazing. Pity my christian mates refuse to put money on it, funny their belief isn't strong enough :)
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Two thoughts:
Do athiests get to go to hell when they die? or do they go to the in-between room?
And....
Saw a T-shirt today that read:
"Heck is for people that dont believe in Gosh"
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"Do athiests get to go to hell when they die?"
As I was taught, not necessarily. Since God created us, He will judge each of us according to who we are. That's what this essentially non-practicing Catholic was taught, anyway. Take it for what it's worth.
J_A_B
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Probably get what they want most, to not exsist anymore.
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Originally posted by J_A_B
"Nash I think you're describing Agnosticism, not Atheism."
Not exactly. A "true" agnostic isn't merely undecided. Rather, the agnostic believes that even if God does exist, God takes no active role in shaping our lives. That is why I try not to use the word agnostic to describe myself, although sometimes I do if I'm in a lazy mood. Unlike the agnostic, I'm perfectly willing to accept that traditional Catholics may in fact be correct. At least, that's what I've always been taught the word means. Others obviously use it as synonymous with "undecided" so I suppose either works.
Seagoon--
Since you're here, there's something I've always wondered about protestants: Why don't protestants believe in the Eucharist?
J_A_B
Thanks, J_A_B. I guess Agnosticism has more than one definition- I had understood it to mean when a person believes they cannot know whether God exists, rather than just being skeptical that He does.
btw, I'm Protestant (Lutheran actually) and I'm sure Protestants believe in the Eucharist (Holy Communion), though there are several interpretations of what is actually taking place within the bread and wine during the act of remembrance. Is that what you are referring to?
Great post as always, Seagoon.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
McDonalds is the most popular restaurant in the world. Sure doesn't mean that it's cuisine.
Helpful as always, Eagler.
but there IS a Ronald McDonald :)
your welcome
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Hi JAB,
Originally posted by J_A_B
Seagoon--
Since you're here, there's something I've always wondered about protestants: Why don't protestants believe in the Eucharist?
J_A_B
I hope It'll be ok to go ahead and answer this here, seeing as I guess it applies to the uhhh.. "religion" part of the Kids, religion, and atheism thread.
Anyway, as Oboe has already pointed out, most Protestant do indeed "believe" in the Eucharist (a word which means "Thanksgiving" in Greek) and practice it on a fairly regular basis, although most Protestants refer to it as either communion or more commonly the "Lord's Supper" which is how Paul refers to it in 1 Cor. 11:20.
I sense what you are asking about however, is not simply the observation of the Lord's Supper as sacrament of the church, but rather "Why don't Protestants believe in Transubtantiation, i.e. that the bread and the wine literally become the flesh and blood of Christ at the supper?" The short answer to that is because most Protestants do not believe that the doctrine of Transubstantiation is taught in the bible, but is a later and warrantless tradition of the church.
Historically, the doctrine of Transubstantiation developed rather late, and first makes it appearance in the form that would be recognized today in Paschasius Radbertus in his 831 AD treatise Concerning the Sacrament of the Body and Blood of Christ, which when it appeared excited quite a bit of opposition and counter-treatises. Just to show how novel the view was, in 815 AD in his commentary on the book of Matthew, Claudius the Archbishop of Turin had written that the elements of bread and wine were only symbols of the flesh and blood of the Savior.
So to sum up, Protestants believe that the Lord's Supper was a sacrament (or "ordinance" if you're Baptist) given by Christ to the church to be regularly observed until his return, but do not believe the explanation (founded on Aristotelian philosophy) that the outward "accidents" of the bread and wine remain the same, while the "essence" literally changes to the actual body and blood of Christ. They believe that the words "this is My body" are obviously symbolic and no more meant to be take absolutely literally than "I am the true vine."
- SEAGOON
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People r stupid. they cant admit that there could be something smarter and better than them.(God) Contrary to popular belief Hitler was not a Christian. He was an atheist and saw christianity as being weak and a form of juadism. Now, do u wanna be like Hitler? Atheists don't isten to morales and are jerks. they often get involved with communism and faschism.
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by the way, i am a lutheran.
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When they start passing around the Koolaid, be sure to get two.
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I, for one, welcome the wise words of Sisco55, whos tremendous insight into all matters theological is well known. You're right, Sisco55, I HAVE been wrong all these years! I'm glad you posted here, I'll be heading down to the church to convert asap. Nobody ever put it so clearly before! Hallelujah!
...
Anyways, as the rest of you know, I'm not trying to start a 'my (non) religion is better than yours' fight, I'm just struggling with the best way to raise my kids in a theocratic world. Do I get the same free pass with indoctrinating them that religious families do? Or do I play dumb and tell them "I don't know if there's a god" even though that goes against my beliefs?
Seagoon has brought up some great points to ponder, as have many others.
This place is good to use as a sounding board. Despite heckling by storch, eagler, and silly people like Sisco55, I value your insight. In the end, the decision is that of my wife and myself, of course, and these posts do not constitute validation, but I'm too old to waste time arguing the point with the fanatics.
If y'all are interested, I'll update the thread as my wife and I hash this out. Might be interesting to see how us godless heathens act when we're not eating babies and starting communist takeovers. :p
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Originally posted by Vulcan
The number of times I've stood in a field with some mate and said "if theres a god may he strike me down now" and its never worked is amazing. Pity my christian mates refuse to put money on it, funny their belief isn't strong enough :)
Were you the professor on Gilligan`s Island?
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Originally posted by Sisco55
People r stupid. they cant admit that there could be something smarter and better than them.(God) Contrary to popular belief Hitler was not a Christian. He was an atheist and saw christianity as being weak and a form of juadism. Now, do u wanna be like Hitler? Atheists don't isten to morales and are jerks. they often get involved with communism and faschism.
And, clearly, a partionally functional idiot.
"Atheists don't isten to morales and are jerks. "
seriously bud, put down the coolaid. There is no way such a blanket statement can be true and it shows you to be the bigot that you are.
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of course when little green men comes to visit, you can always say god was a capitalist and franchised.
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Originally posted by Sisco55
People r stupid. they cant admit that there could be something smarter and better than them.(God) Contrary to popular belief Hitler was not a Christian. He was an atheist and saw christianity as being weak and a form of juadism. Now, do u wanna be like Hitler? Atheists don't isten to morales and are jerks. they often get involved with communism and faschism.
Yah know, there's a guy on the school board named Jesus Morales, I knda doubt he's an atheist, but he truly a dick.
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If you were Christian, you would undoubtedly raise your children to be Christian because you want them to be saved and go to heaven with you rather than be consigned to Hell. If you were a "good" Christian, you might also teach them to love everyone regardless of any differences between their beliefs. If you were a "bad" Christian, you might teach them to force their beliefs on as many people as possible and to hate, harass, and/or kill anyone who disagrees. If you were Catholic, you would teach them to worship a small statue of the Virgin Mary and submit to the sexual needs of the local priest.
Since you believe religions are false, why would you want your children to even consider believing in them? Teach them to believe as you do. How are you ever going to raise children if you are afraid of teaching them what you believe is right?
You can try to teach your children one of two ways to think:
1. Blindly believe in something because someone tells you to do so.
2. Make observations and make "rational decisions" based on those observations.
At a glance, #2 sounds very appealing. But how many 4 year olds can review philosophy and make decisions for themselves about how the world works and how they should behave?
Until children are old enough to think for themselves, they need a strong push to get going in the "right direction". If you present diverse beliefs as being equally viable and allow them to believe in anything they want, they just might end up fighting on the side of Osama Bin Laden in Afghanistan. All people have some kind of philosophy they believe in and live by, if you don't give your children one, someone else will. As a parent, you get the burden and luxury of choosing what the "right direction" will be with some outside pressure from the government, education system, and society in general provding some constraints. I hope you choose to teach your children what you believe is right and don't let other parents' decisions persuade you to do otherwise.
Having a young child ask you "Who is God?" is really no more difficult a question than "Why is the sky blue?" or "Where do babies come from?". You can try to give an adult answer and hope they somehow understand or you can give a stupid answer that will shut them up until they are old enough to find out for themselves--your call.
I would hope that even though you don't believe in religion, you would at least teach your children some of the concepts and history. Most of the major religions provide a great foundation on how people should live and treat each other. You don't have to believe in God to know the 10 Commandments and understand that they are a pretty good set of rules to live by. Perhaps you should treat Biblical stories like Fairy Tales and Greek mythology to simultaneously entertain and educate your children.
Maybe one day your atheist child who has learned to read will ask a very interesting question: "If there is a constitutional requirement for the separation of church and state such that prayers cannot be said aloud in school and even the Ten Commandments cannot be displayed on a courthouse wall, then why is it that every session of Congress begins with a prayer and all of our money is labled 'In God we trust'?"
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Very very interesting points, streakeagle. I will share your post with my wife.
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Originally posted by Sisco55
by the way, i am a lutheran.
You're bald and hate superman?
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I distinctly remember my 1st true moment of athiesm. I was in 5th grade and a group of the mormon kids were hassling me about not believing in heaven/hell. "If you don't believe you will go to hell" they said. "If I don't believe in hell why would I care?" I remember replying. Followed quickly by the realization that I could have no respect for a "god" that would condemn non-believers to hell when there was no reasonable evidence to support his/her/it's existance in the first place.
I remember feeling sorry for them.
My parents were athiests, but they never pushed it. They allow us to choose our own faith. My sister is christian, my brother and I decidedly not.
g00b
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Hi again Chair,
Originally posted by Chairboy
Do I get the same free pass with indoctrinating them that religious families do? Or do I play dumb and tell them "I don't know if there's a god" even though that goes against my beliefs?
Actually philosophically, you raise an interesting point here. Is there, or should there be, a one to one correlation between Christians teaching their children that there is a God, and those who profess atheism teaching their children there isn't a God?
Well first why do Christians teach their children there is a God? Some would say this is all a matter of presenting what they "feel to be the case" as a fact. There is of course a kernel of truth to that. The Bible teaches that all men inherently know that there is a God both through his works in creation and via an inner conviction, but that many choose to suppress what they know: "...what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead..." So to a certain extent when one teaches one's children that there is a God, and that he is the Creator, one is simply laying before them what theologians call the teaching of "natural revelation."
Of course not even Christians would say that one can move from the data in natural revelation to the Christian faith, or any of the more complex doctrines taught in the bible, or even that which is necessary to be known in order to saved. Nature teaches us almost nothing of theology. For that, some other form of revelation from God is necessary, which only makes sense. If we are to have any knowledge of God or His will, he must reveal it to us. As Geerhardus Vos explains:
"From the definition of Theology as the science concerning God follows the necessity of its being based on revelation. In scientifically dealing with impersonal objects we ourselves take the first step; they are passive, we are active; we handle them, examine them, experiment with them. But in regard to a spiritual, personal being this is different. Only in so far as such a being chooses to open up itself can we come to know it. All spiritual life is by its very nature a hidden life, a life shut up in itself. Such a life we can know only through revelation. If this be true as between man and man, how much more must it be so as between God and man. The principle involved has been strikingly formulated by Paul: “For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.” [1 Cor. 2:11]. The inward hidden content of God’s mind can become the possession of man only through a voluntary disclosure on God’s part. God must come to us before we can go to Him. But God is not a personal spiritual being in general. He is a Being infinitely exalted above our highest conception. Suppose it were possible for one human spirit to penetrate directly into another human spirit: it would still be impossible for the spirit of man to penetrate into the Spirit of God. This emphasizes the necessity of God's opening up to us the mystery of His nature before we can acquire any knowledge concerning Him. Indeed, we can go one step farther still. In all-scientific study we exist alongside of the objects which we investigate, But in Theology the relation is reversed. Originally God alone existed. He was known to Himself alone, and had first to call into being a creature before any extraneous knowledge with regard to Him became possible. Creation therefore was the first step in the production of extra-divine knowledge." [Geerhardus Vos, Biblical Theology, p.3-4]
Of course, while the atheist might be willing to accept the logic in the above statement - that if God exists he must reveal himself to us - they would posit that the existance of some revelation doesn't naturally prove that there is a God. Merely that if God existed, He would have to reveal Himself.
Christians of course, believe that both natural and special (i.e. the Bible) revelation are in fact God's manner of revealing himself to us (obviously atheists dispute the source of the revelation and always will) and so in teaching their children about God, Christians teach them from His revelation.
But what of the atheist and his children? Should he teach them, "there is no God!" and on what basis can he do so? He has no inspired revelation that is conclusive on the subject, and in order for him to conclusively know that there is no God in all the universe, he would need to be God himself. The most he can truthfully posit is, " I don't believe there is a God " and then lay out the factors that have inclined him to that decision.
So should there be absolutely parity between the two positions? I don't personally think there can be.
Of course regardless of what he does or doesn't teach his children regarding God, his practice will indicate what he actually believes to them. This works the other way as well, a parent may profess to believe in God to their children, and then disclose by their actions that they are in fact practical atheists.
So Chair, you may not sit your children down tell them there is no God and then read at length from Bertrand Russel, but you will end up inevitably "teaching them" what you believe. So whether or not you get a pass, you'll show them what's in your heart, they're around you 24 by 7 and in constant "record" mode. A good rule of thumb is that you can con co-workers, neighbors, and even girl-friends, but kids? Nah... They know us better than we know ourselves.
- SEAGOON
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Proving a negative.... is a tricky thing indeed.
Question: Wouldn't it be reasonable (this is just conversation, not actually trying to change people) to, in that same vein, expect Christians to instead teach their kids that they think there is a god instead of that there is a god?
Cogent points, Seagoon. We may not agree on some pretty big issues, but it seems we can may agree that the scope of the problem is ginormous, no matter which side you're on.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Proving a negative.... is a tricky thing indeed.
Question: Wouldn't it be reasonable (this is just conversation, not actually trying to change people) to, in that same vein, expect Christians to instead teach their kids that they think there is a god instead of that there is a god?
I wish I could devote more time to this question, its a good one, but I have to get ready for a (no joke) Christian child-rearing class.
Anyway, the short answer is no for a number of reasons. First because the Bible teaches that while Christians may struggle with doubts on occasion, the grounds of their faith and assurance are more solid than the mountains. One of my favorite verses along those lines and one which I always close all public readings of scripture with is "The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever."
Secondly, I know from the position of the atheist, Christianity is just a sentimental crutch designed to help people get through a life that is in fact nasty, brutish, and short and as such the idea of certainity seems absurd to them. But the aim of Christianity isn't actually to be something people merely add to their lives, it is meant to be the foundation for one's existence, both in this life and the next, and has as its aim reconciliation with God (first) and Man (as a by-product) from a position of complete alienation. In simple terms, Christianity teaches men not only how to be saved, but how to live, and then enables them to act on what they now know and believe.
This new relationship with God is created via union with Christ which comes through faith, and a faith that is not merely along the lines of a subjective "Gee, I sure wish that..." but rather the firm belief in the objective fact that Jesus is the Messiah and that God raised Him from the Dead. This faith is thus made up of 3 critical components: knowledge, assent, and trust and trust is of course the very opposite of doubt. So practically speaking, "a doubting faith" or an "uncertain faith" is an oxymoron.
Anyway for more on what I mean above by faith, click on this link (http://www.providencepca.com/essays/savingfaith.html)
Anywho, interesting conversation Chair, thanks for your patience....
- SEAGOON