Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Midnight on April 07, 2001, 05:47:00 PM
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javascript:vod('/video/world/2001/04/06/intv.china.pilot.chin.html')
It is on the CNN.com website. An interview with the other Chinese pilot that was involved with the collision with our EP-3.
This guy going on saying that our EP-3 turned and caused the ramming. Placing full blame on the Americans. Who are they trying to kid?
HT, please send this pilot a free subsription to AH so I can shoot his bellybutton out of the sky. Obviously, he and his wingman have no idea how to fly.
There is another story that the wife of the downed pilot wrote a letter to the President calling him a coward for not appologizing and that it was all our (America's) fault.
Red Commies are just F*cked in the head. Same with frigging Iraqis.
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here is another classic example of typical Chinese "thinking"
According to China the american planer rammed the Wang Wei(lol)..
however ON THE SAME PAGE, that say that what Wang Wei DID was "a heroic act"
so he didnt do anything....but what he DID makes him a hero... WTG China!?
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Wang Wei....
Wrong Way????
get the picture?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Udie
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They really can't expect to get out of this with ABSOLUTELY no blame.. That's out of the question. That IS the Chinese way of thinking. If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound? If a Chinese plane crashes into a US plane and no one is there to see it, are the Chinese to blame? Suuure! They really are acting like stubborn little children and need to grow up. We will never know the true story for sure and they've got to realize that. Even if it WAS the Americans' fault, no one will know! If anything, the blame falls 50/50. Amen!
Oct!
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Wang Wei's Mother in her letter to Bush
"In this serious matter with irrefutable facts and the responsibility completely resting on the U.S. side, you are too cowardly to voice an apology and have been trying to shirk your responsibility repeatedly and defame my husband groundlessly. Can this be the human rights and humanism that you have been talking about every day?"
"I cannot figure out why they rammed my husband's plane."
Yea lady.. doesent make much sense does it???
[This message has been edited by TheWobble (edited 04-07-2001).]
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Geez.. communism should be banned as a threat for the human intelligence..
Already a child knows that a plane with 4 propellers and huge body won't be ramming any jet fighters, unless the fighter for some reason wants to make closer friendship.
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Hmmm...
At least Chineese don't bomb their own troops on training flights, and never miss their target to blow up a neutral country's embassy.
These Chineese pilots can be much better trained then the guys who mostly rely on numerical and technical superiority bombing villages and refugee caravans.
BTW, what do you think the mother of any US pilot who dies in a similiar situation will say? And we all know that "humanism" and "human rights" apply only when US government need it. Chineese, Slavs and some other nations definetly can't be compared to any proud American or any gangster who declares he fights "communism" or just agrees to take American money.
How about such an opinion? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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Originally posted by Boroda:
Hmmm...
At least Chineese don't bomb their own troops on training flights, and never miss their target to blow up a neutral country's embassy.
These Chineese pilots can be much better trained then the guys who mostly rely on numerical and technical superiority bombing villages and refugee caravans.
The question is, would chinese ever talk about it, if some casualties would of happend during armed exercise?
I think not..
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At least Chineese don't bomb their own troops on training flights, and never miss their target to blow up a neutral country's embassy.
Well seeing as how China is so honest and so open with things such as that im suprised they havent "had" any accidents..
Seeing as how China is a country that will imprision and or murder its own citizens if they voice any disapproval of "their" country its no big suprise that China's diddlyups are not often made known...
I doubt they have killed many civilians on accident..they usually do it on purpose.
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Originally posted by Boroda:
Hmmm...
At least Chineese don't bomb their own troops on training flights, and never miss their target to blow up a neutral country's embassy.
These Chineese pilots can be much better trained then the guys who mostly rely on numerical and technical superiority bombing villages and refugee caravans.
BTW, what do you think the mother of any US pilot who dies in a similiar situation will say? And we all know that "humanism" and "human rights" apply only when US government need it. Chineese, Slavs and some other nations definetly can't be compared to any proud American or any gangster who declares he fights "communism" or just agrees to take American money.
How about such an opinion? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Here's an idea Boroda, Go back to your 3rd world commie nation and wait in line for bread, while I'm eatin my 3rd steak of the week (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Udie
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Now im worried...... most of you guys are Texans.
Im going to go to my bomb shelter now...
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Boroda actually threw in a few good points there (to mull over), one fellow Allied nation to another here (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) am i enlightened, or a commie ?
PS. Nice shot on the Embassy... very little collateral...
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A few points to remember. I know it is so hard for you NOT to revert to streotypes and would like everyone from one country to be 'The Enemy', but:
1) This isn't 'Chinese thinking' - it's the brain-washing of a small 'communistic' elite.
2) A similar thing could be said for the Iraqi people.
Here's a scenario for you. A Chinese recon. plane is 12 miles from New York (within international airspace), there is a collision between a buzzing F-18 and said 'spy' plane (which was apparently flying straight and level). The US pilot is killed, while the Chinese plane makes an emergency landing.
Would the US people be criticizing the US pilot, which is the reasonable thing to do? I doubt it.
So please stop with the jingoistic posturing - this is a political incident, not a nationalisitc one. The Chinese are in the wrong, but you must remember the actual Chinese population have nothing to do with it. Those that have spoken out, have been 'encouraged' to do so, if you get my meaning.
Remember also that the Chinese regime has actually stopped demonstrators appearing outside the Chinese embassy, unlike with the 'unfortunate' (now that IS an understatement) cruise misslie/Chinese embassy thing, in which the opposite was the case. The regime was actually bus-ing them in for their 'two-minute hate' after that missile hit. They've been a little more restrained this time.
Udie - perhaps it hasn't made the news in whatever back-water you come from, but there was a revolution type thing in Russia about 10 years ago - it isn't communist anymore. Sorry for destroying those ever-so-comforting illusions. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
BTW, true 'Chinese' thinking gave us one of the most progressive and technologically advanced societies in the history of the planet. Before the popular revolution, they had a traceable history going back 4500 years. Which is a little bit longer than the 200+ years your nation has been around. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 04-08-2001).]
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What a bunch of drivel.
Dont get mad. They have only kidnapped 24 of you servicemen.
Dont respond to thier written and press atacks on your country and leadership and servicemen. They are like little children that are forced to do these things. You are free and can therefor forgive.
Are we going to let the chinese extend there national waters all the way to japan one collision and abduction at a time. We know they dont give a toejam for the life of the pilot involved or the airframe either. What a great trade 1 obselecent plane from thousands and 1 expendable pilot from thousands for being able to force your national waters another 100 miles out. Dont kid yourself. Thats what they are after. Some aggreement to keep US planes some crazy distance from their shores. An apology is not a harmless bread crumb. It is an admission of guilt. Which would be very handy in the UN.
Did I just read a russian posting a snipe at an american about friendly fire killings.. PLEASE
Friendly fire was the state policy of russian for years. Most every terrorist orginisation in the world for years was supported by the russians one way or the other.
Lets not get started on the record of the british. We will be here a long time.
Speak up Americans. Your leaders cannot right now. But you can. Let these idiots know that you take it very seriosly when someone rams your plane and takes your people captive.
(Canadian)
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Here's a scenario for you. A Chinese recon. plane is 12 miles from New York (within international airspace), there is a collision between a buzzing F-18 and said 'spy' plane (which was apparently flying straight and level). The US pilot is killed, while the Chinese plane makes an emergency landing.
Would the US people be criticizing the US pilot, which is the reasonable thing to do? I doubt it.
Well, how about an "apples to apples" comparison?
A Chinese intelligence gathering aircraft 60 miles from N.Y., involved in a collision with an F-18 pilot that has been captured on film so close that you can read the E-Mail address he's holding up in the cockpit and who's been so close several times that he has specifically been the subject of a high-level diplomatic exchange (demarche) between the two countries already?
Further, US has previously and currently stated that by International Law the responsibility for safe separation lies solely with the Intercepting Aircraft and that by International Law the slower, less maneuverable aircraft ALWAYS has the right of way.
I personally believe we would have already apologized and returned the aircraft and crew should the situation be reversed.
China gets a "free ride" in this simply because they have successfully created the image that because of their "different culture" they cannot be held to the same standards as the rest of the world. They have successfully made themselves a "special case" and their actions can only be judged by themselves.
Of course, it's also to their benefit that the other involved party was the US, IMO.
Everybody seems to like taking a cheap shot when the opportunity presents itself.
International Law is very clear in the Interceptor/separation and slower aircraft areas.
Where's the rest of the world? Why is there such a deafening silence?
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Britain already made formal request that China return the pilots. I know also that everyone here.... we talk about it in work.... is pretty po'd that they've kept the crew as they have.
Just have to stick my oar in though when i see some of the comments coming over the way they have been. Kinda reverse it, like Boroda, oh and you get mighty p'd (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Love It (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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No Toad, you don't get what I'm saying. This isn't Chinese culture at work here - because that would be democratic. No one is excusing the Chinese at all, certainly not because of a 'culture difference'.
It's a small minority who hold ultimate power - the people of China have no say in any policy, either domestic or foreign. The democratic party of China is incarcerated wholesale, dissidents are tortured and killed, and uprisings are put down brutally and without compassion.
This isn't a clash between Chinese culture and the US - it's a clash between a communistic clique and the US government. It's political rather than cultural.
You say they have made themselves a special case. I say that that is the way it is - they are an anti-democracy state with a severe sense of historical injustice. You can't change that, no matter how much you want to.
Pongo - who said anything about not being allowed to 'get mad'? I just don't see how a bunch of jingoistic crap is going to solve anything.
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 04-08-2001).]
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So your saying Russian is a free country ? And they never bomb civilians (borodo must be too young to remember that Super Power called Afganistan).
Chinese people can't be judged by the actions of their government , same for Russia or any other country .
this post is not ment to be a personal attack (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Depends on how liberally you apply jingoistic, Dowding. I don't think any (well, save a few frothing at the mouth (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) are even remotely considering any kind of military response.
On the other hand the loss of any or all of the following will indeed be a severe blow to the party in control, and imo at least some if not all needs to come about so they'll consider it as a potential downside next time:
Loss of free electronic trade with US.
Loss of all around trade with the US.
Failure in applicate to WTO.
Failure in bid to host olympics.
Increased US/Taiwan trade.
Incresed US/Taiwan military exchange.
Decreased US/China military exchange.
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Dowding,
To me this was the point of the first half or your post:
"Would the US people be criticizing the US pilot, which is the reasonable thing to do? I doubt it."
My response is primarily directed there. Your hypothesis wasn't an apples to apples comparison to begin with.
Beyond that, if a US fighter pilot had done what Wang Wei had previously done, he most likely wouldn't be flying intercepts anymore.
Once, if no one gets hurt, you get disciplined. The second time you get reassigned to a desk.
Secondly, when we DO make a mistake, at least we admit it. The Iran Air downing is an example.
So yes, I think we'd admit the mistake, return the plane and crew ASAP.
They've been allowed to make themselves a "special case" in the court of world opinion.
The world is going to pay someday for letting that slide.
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 04-08-2001).]
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If the world were a 3rd grade classroom, China would be the Rude little redhaed kid that puts his bugers everwhere and blames other kids when he pees on the coatrack (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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a point if I may,
question, What is 248 feet long, painted haze grey, and currently rusting at a pier in Wonson harbor?
We will eventually get the crew back, as soon as they get tired of the game, don't hold your breath about the plane.
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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Boroda who are you kidding (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
You guys are scared toejamless of the CHI-COMS and for good reason. There is no ocean between you and them (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Y
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Boroda,
Want to discus the Chinese Communists party feeling for their people. Think Tieneman Square. Think armed troops surrounding then shooting unarmed citizens. Think imprisoning people for asking or speaking out for a change in their government. BTW think trials closed to press and observers when said "enemies of the state" are "tried" and sentenced to prison or executed.
Now as to the bombing incident. Yep a Navy pilot did drop a bomb and killed some of the observers. It was a tragic mistake. The military recognizes there are always some casualties in training. They try to avoid it but it is the nature of the profession to be dangerous.
As to the embassy bombing. Yep it happened and we didn't blame the Chinese for causing it, like they are doing in this situation.
Now please get a life, "commissar".
Mav
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Just to show you im generally of the thought that China isnt that nice.
Think also the 'one child per family' policy, and the results of its stern upholding by the authorities.
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Woohoo - it's Monday and Easter is just a few days away (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (Hello everyone (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif))
You guys are scared toejamless of the CHI-COMS and for good reason. There is no ocean between you and them
For your information - they had a few "go"s in the past (not so distant) every time the result was "scratch a few thousand Chinese troops". They also "had a go" at Vietnam with no success.
borodo must be too young to remember that Super Power called Afganistan
Vietnam rings any bells? At least, SU didn't fake an attack on their own destroyer - faking an invitation from a "democratic government" was good enough... Same duration, same combat losses ratio, same result - hmmm... They still killing each other in droves over there.
As for Chinese mother writing a letter to the President - what a load of BS, of course she didn't write it. No more than the President writing his own speaches. The difference would be that it's up to him whether to deliver them - she didn't have much choice...
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as for that plane landing... by international law they could have shot it out of the sky and still be in clear.
It IS a MILITARY aircraft landing without premission at the military instalation...
We're lucky that those 24 are still alive.
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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
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Originally posted by fd ski:
as for that plane landing... by international law they could have shot it out of the sky and still be in clear.
It IS a MILITARY aircraft landing without premission at the military instalation...
We're lucky that those 24 are still alive.
Were they in contact with chinese air-controllers? American controllers and superiors? Were they brodcasting "Mayday"?
Doesn't any plane/ship broadcasting "Mayday" (M'aidez) is supposed to get permission to land according to some international law?
Did they definitely not have permission? Show me a crewmen saying so or even better, play a "Black Box" recording.
According to the press, our diplomats are not allowed to discuss those issues when they meet the prisoners. They want US to appologize without having any information other then provided by chinese. That seem suspicios to me.
Boroda,
If there was a reliable way to deliver ordnance on target, there would not be any need for traning. We killed our own people in training and combat when I was serving in Soviet Army - of course it was not published in newspapers, so I only know about cases I witnessed.
I know the same (friendly fire, not concealment) happens in Israeli army and in US army - you can read about it in our newspapers.
How sure can you be that it doesn't happen in Chinese army that you would put your name on it?
Dowding,
I am sure that if an american pilot screwd up, most americans would admit that possibility. We know our military arn't unfallible.
I am also sure we would have interviews with all involved people or at least recordings - crews, ground controllers, message logs, etc.
About a "revolution" in russia 10 years ago. The people who ruled before set it in motion (M. Gorbachev, B. Yeltshin - all communists, as well as V. Putin) and still rule there.
miko
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Toad, exactly how would you have stopped China 'sliding'? Military intervention during the Popular revolution? I can't see what you are proposing other than this. As for the US admitting mistakes - I don't buy that. The US acts like any other nation (including the UK), to tune of 'plausible deniability'. If you can deny it, do so.
The US were open about Iran air incident because they had absolutely no alternative - it was too open an act to deny.
As an example, I recently read 'Excursion to Hell' about the Falklands liberation. It is written by a Para who was right in the action. He details how US mercenaries fighting for the Argentinians were shot dead by British forces to spare the blushes of Reagan and the 'special relationship' enjoyed by Thatcher and Ronald at that time. To this day, the US denies that any US citizens were fighting for the 'Argies'. It does this because it can, since there is only eye-wtiness status from British soldiers to substantiate the claim. But it seems to me there is too many corrobarating accounts from different units (e.g the sworn rivals the Paras and the Marines, who would barely communicate with each other, nevermind fabricate an entire 'incident').
Fatty - the US needs those markets in China. Think of all the consumables US multi-nationals can sell them, from cars to refridgerators.
All those businessmen who lobbied hard to get the markets opened aren't going to be too pleased if they close.
Personally, I'm in two minds about this. On the one hand, a free market might lead to reform just for the sake of maximising investment. But on the other hand, the Chinese communist party should not be given any kind of respectibility/legitimacy through international acceptance (even though it is financially motivated).
Argent - China has severe over-population problems. It has absolutely no choice but to impose some sort of limit on child-birth.
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Originally posted by Dowding:
The US acts like any other nation (including the UK), to tune of 'plausible deniability'. If you can deny it, do so.
Americans are humans. Each one can screw up and try to hide it. As a society we have a free press and other means to insure the truth comes out. Do they always work? Does anything?
The US were open about Iran air incident because they had absolutely no alternative - it was too open an act to deny.
How was it more open?
Let chinese release the crew and the black box and we will admit anything there is to admit.
He details how US mercenaries fighting for the Argentinians were shot dead by British forces to spare the blushes of Reagan and the 'special relationship' enjoyed by Thatcher and Ronald at that time. To this day, the US denies that any US citizens were fighting for the 'Argies'.
I could not venture a reason Argentinians decided to use mercenaries despite having their own army they are very proud of. Just imagine - "General, your troops are going to screw up, so we will hire some outside help... How do you like that?". Of course I long forsworn trying to set limits to human stupidity.
So freaking what? There is a very large choice of foreign employments that a US citizen can undertake without jeopardizing his citizenship or involving his government in any way.
Why would Reagan care to deny anything or to blush? How would he know if any american mecenary was there? They do not file a plan whan they go aboard. They might well have used aliases there.
Does anyone in US blames your government every time a Brit is caught smuggling drugs into US? Why should we?
Even if there were mercenaries, why would anyone blame US government?
Did not Argentina blame US for providing Brits with intelligence during that operation?
Fatty - the US needs those markets in China. Think of all the consumables US multi-nationals can sell them, from cars to refridgerators.
That is not true. US has a huge trade imbalance in favor of China. They take away our jobs and sell us products, some manufactured by inmate labor.
miko
[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 04-09-2001).]
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Dowding,
Make excuses for the Chinese all you like. They may have a 5000 year traceable history but look where it has led them. At present they are probably the largest threat to world peace on the planet. The prevailing opinion seems to be that the rest of the nations have to humor them because they are some sort of "special case". You yourself have made this argument.
All I've said is that one day I think we'll all pay for taking that view.
I hope I'm wrong on that.
As for the rest of it, I think the US press does a pretty good job of airing issues. It may be that the government is more forthcoming because of our press but that's a collateral issue. One of the benefits of the First Amendment. Point is, the facts get out, more so perhaps than any other "major power" type country.
Don't expect a US-o-phobe like you to agree though.
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What about that time a Russian Spy plane made an emergency landing in Alaska cuz it was out of fuel. ( after spying on America no less ) We fueled them up, and sent them on their way.
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Nathan "NATEDOG" Mathieu
Art Director
HiTech Creations
-=HELLFIRE SQUAD=-
".... And on the eighth day, God created beer. "
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Negative FD, aircraft in distress is covered by int'l regs, Toad can quote you chapter and verse. Furthermore it seems the Chinese were recorded on radio saying the plane had permission to land.
Dowding, people in the US LOVE to criticize our military. It's practically a national sport. Anytime any of our aircraft or ships or personnel are involved in even the slightest incident, it is highly publicized here and nitpicked in grueling detail.
If your hypothetical incident took place, the media would be all over it, and the pilot would be in deep toejam for creating an international incident. Furthermore the USN and USAF have been escorting Soviet/Former Soviet ELINT and strategic bomb birds off our coastlines for about 40 years, it's just that we don't crash into them.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 04-09-2001).]
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Originally posted by Dowding:
He details how US mercenaries fighting for the Argentinians were shot dead by British forces to spare the blushes of Reagan and the 'special relationship' enjoyed by Thatcher and Ronald at that time.
I dont know Dowding old buddy, but I dont see how this even enters into the picture here. Were these guys US military personnel or were they hired mercenaries? If they were the latter, then I dont see how Reagan can be expected to know the whereabouts of some US citizens who happened to be employed by the Argentinians...just because they may have been there doesnt mean it was condoned by the US government.
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PS As long as China has nukes pointed at USA, and threatens Taiwan with a build up of seaborne/airborne invasion forces and missiles, USA will take all legal measures (flying/sailing in Int'l Waters) to monitor their activities. And if China wants to ram any more of our unarmed aircraft, they had better stock up on life preservers and shark repellent.
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PS Boroda is trolling you guys. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
And if he's not I'll bring up the 100,000 civilians wasted by Russian bandits in Chechnya. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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huh?, did dowding just say british troops exicuted pow's in violation of geneva accords??... sound like war crimes to me, sound like someone should tell the UN
attla da hun
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Wasn't the Chinese embassy bombing accident shortly after the stealth fighter shoot down?
I wonder if the Chinese would have any interest in a slightly wrecked F-117?
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And if he's not I'll bring up the 100,000 civilians wasted by Russian bandits in Chechnya.
Funked if you're trolling - it's a poor taste troll. If you are not - you have not a slightest idea what you're talking about - please don't.
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Natedog, when did it happen?
Maybe they fueled our plane and let it go simply because USA illegaly occupies Alaska for the last 40 years?
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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Boroda are you guys giving us back the Carelian isthmut and Petsamo?
(btw keep it; IMO we don't have enough money to build its whole infrastructure from scratch...)
[This message has been edited by Staga (edited 04-10-2001).]
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Just like we did in Finland in 1809-1918? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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Boroda - bolsheviks refused to pay tzar's loans, America refused to accept that Alaska was "leased" from Russia for 100 years. You can't have both. Either pay the dosh or stop making noises about Alaska...
As for Soviet plane landing and refuelling - I guess American PR people had more brains than hardline communists. It was a nice jesture, like saying "shit happens, have a nice day" and everyone involved felt better about themselves...
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Miko's right Dowding. Our total trade with China is 80 billion. No small amount, no doubt, and we'd rather have it than not, but we can most certinaly live without it (and spread what can be to Korea and Taiwan).
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Lynx, US have taken the gold that Tzar and then White Army payed them for the arms, didn't ship the prepaid goods and said that Russia have never paid in advance. More to say, at the same time people like Armand Hammer traded with bolsheviks. Now Russia pays all the Tsar's debts for arms supplies during WWI and even 100+ year old "Railway credits", while US, Japan and some European countries simply stealed Russian payments wthout completeng the contracts. This has nothing to do with occupation of Alaska.
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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Hey guys, don't shoot the messenger. The events in the Falklands I described are widely documented, as is the denial by the US government that US mercenaries were involved.
john9001 - actually, it wasn't just American mercenaries who were killed by British forces. There are accounts of Argentinian prisoners being thrown off cliffs. But the killing of prisoners who, minutes before, were manning a defensive position has happened in every war since the year dot. The beaches of Normandy are another example. Indefensible? Of course. Understandable? Of course.
The controversy doesn't centre around the fact that POWs were killed, it was that orders from high up in the command chain were given to single out American nationals. Of course, this is disputable and only personal accounts support it.
An official War Crimes investigation was opened over the action on Mount Longdon. AFAIK, no disciplinary action was taken and the claim that US mercenaries were present during the battle has never been proved.
The events are a relevant example of plausible deniability.
Fatty, Miko2d - wait a minute. Isn't the US trying to stave off a recession? I think the loss of 80 Billion Dollars of trade might have some effect and I'm sure Wall Street would not like to stand such a loss.
Funked - despite the (over-estimated) power of the media, I'm sure the US military could keep an incident like that quiet. If they really wanted to, it wouldn't take much effort.
Toad - despite how easy it might be for you to believe, the UK is not 'humouring' the Chinese. We have officially asked for China to return both the plane and the personnel. This is something I agree with.
Don't expect a US-o-phobe like you to agree though.
A US-o-phobe? Yeah right, Toad. How very lazy of you. Just because I don't happen to be American and I don't happen to share your opinion on a whole plane-load of issues, doesn't mean 'I hate America'. I'm fairly surprised you think this, you always seemed quite rational in previous discussions.
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 04-10-2001).]
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Dowdning, at least you are an ordinary "US-o-phobe" in their eyes, while I am an "imbecilic communist bastard" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
How funny to see people hanging labels on everyone who lives outside of their cage (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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<Edit> Delete all. I find myself drifting towards a "personal" viewpoint/argument, something I work very hard against on a BBS.
I apologize and will withdraw from this thread. <End-Edit>
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 04-10-2001).]
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Toad, if it is because of my last remark - I beg your pardon. I didn't mean you, and "cage" didn't mean US.
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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Yes Dowding, however it's a small price to pay, and in the eyes of most Americans (growing each day captives are held), it's simply not worth trading with a nation that will hold our people indefinately.
The cut to the economy isn't as large as many people (especially the Chinese) would like to think. The 80 billion is consumption, a mere 10-15 is exported, which is the portion we're looking at getting a hit from. The freed purchasing power will be transfered (with some pain, but not all that much) to US and allied based manufacturing.
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to the rescue !
(http://www.twc-tampa.com/mdisalle/jesse.jpg)
" a RELIGIOUS leader can do things a government can't.." jj himself
(who else would call him a religious leader but himself)
no worries now (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Eagler
(http://www.twc-tampa.com/mdisalle/yribbon.gif)
for the 24 held prisoner for 10 days now!
[This message has been edited by Eagler (edited 04-10-2001).]
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I see your point Fatty. I can't see what choice the US is going to have if this continues for another week.
The Chinese will have to back down, it's just a matter of the Chinese leadership finding a way to save 'face' internationally and to not damage their own position within the Party. I think all the propaganda is perhaps aimed to show the people that the leadership still hates America, therefore buying time to climb-down from the crisis.
The prisoners will be free within two weeks is my bet.
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Jessie Jackson....OH CHRIST!
Cant this bloated pile of toejam stay out of anything???
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Originally posted by Boroda:
Dowdning, at least you are an ordinary "US-o-phobe" in their eyes, while I am an "imbecilic communist bastard" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I have no information as to the status of your parents marriage at the time of your birth, or now for that matter. I cannot, therefor, agree with the last term of your self description. The other two terms do seem to be appropriate based on your posts to date.
Mav (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
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Dowding,
In the Falklands they had Gurkhas. You don't want to mess with Gurkhas. Make the Seals look like Nancy-Boys.
Dowding & Boroda,
Don't you guys know? The O-Club is actually funded by Free Republic (http://www.freerepublic.com). You'll never win, because they just keep shoveling more guys from there over here just to drown us out (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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leonid, Kompol
5 GvIAP VVS-KA (http://www.adamfive.com/guerrero)
"Our cause is just. The enemy will be crushed. Victory will be ours."
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Maverick, the above-mentioned description was used by one man you probably know in a private correspondence with me. As for my parents - it's not your business. I may look like an idiot (at least my own opinion doesn't count), but I am not a communist, at least I don't support people who call themself "communists".
What amazes me is that many people here are looking at Chineese, Russians and other former cold-war enemies as if they still live in the 1950s.
Is HUAC still working?
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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I don't think I'd want to mess with anyone from the British armed forces. They are bunch of nutters.
The reason why the SAS and SBS are so tough, is because our regular military goes through a training regime which is arguably the toughest in the world. This especially goes for the Marines and the Paras, from whom most of the SAS/SBS are drawn.
It's a shame we don't have the massive military funding the US has, otherwise we would have the best military in the world. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
The ironic thing about Toad calling me a US-o-phobe is:
1) I work for an American Multinational
2) I listen to American music
3) I wear American clothes
4) I watch American-made films
5) I watch American TV programs
6) I play an American game in which I belong to squad who are mainly Americans, and who are 100% top lads
Free Republic? I scanned through the topics there and there didn't seem to be much argument, just a stream of 'I agree and furthermore...' comments. A little sterile, if you ask me. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Would we be welcome there Leonid? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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The Navy incident here in PR is laughable ,at least to me ,there were plenty of accounts the people there yelled duck take cover and I guess he was the unlucky bastard which didn't react in itime and got the shrapnel up his arse. Quite funny how people make smething like that a rally point for some other things ,I think make them as hipocrites,quite disgusting IMO.
For the Chinese incident I belive it's not the people's will but just the Red Bastards that run the goverment. I as an American citizen even though by birth I am considered something else, believe this was not the US's fault in the mid air incident. Now, the thing I question is were they in international waters or within Chinese airspace, if so ,they had every reason to go up and intercept the plane just that it went a tad wrong.
Wobble don't say anything like that NAACP might go after you.
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Glasses---I may have 4 eyes ,but you only have one wing.
Besser tot als rot
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Dowding,
We have $60 billion a year deficit with China. It means that our people are buying $60 billions worth more from China then they buy from us. That means that money flows out of our country which means that jobs are lost in our country which means that our economy suffers and their benefits.
If we suddenly cuth the whole trade with China, considerable amount of that $60 billions would go to purchase goods produced by our economy - creating more jobs, helping beat the recession, etc.
The rest would go into economies of our friends - (including countries that allegedly shoot our citizens in violation of international laws, but have tact to hide it).
Boroda,
American government was never in a business of selling arms. If some US company broke a contract, the offended party can resort to courts to retrieve the money.
Also, if russians decided to pay money 80 years after they declined to do so, it does not mean everybody has to honor it. When they declined their obligations, they lost their rights.
I am sure that any agreement could be worked out despite of that.
The interest on those loans plus on the damages for the breach of contract would be astronomical.
Since US was not expected to hold Alaska intact after the original Lease expired in hope that USSR will someday recognise its obligations, everything in there is legally ours.
Can you afford to pay for the infrastructure built over the last 40 years and for relocating it's citizens? Few trillion ought to cover it.
Also, before calculating how much America stole form Russia for WWI armaments, would you like to calculate how much would the "Lend-Lease" of arms and supplies during WWII cost at market prices rather then $1? How much would it be to hire the ships and escorts required to bring the convoys to russia? Cost of lives and equipment lost doing that?
Also, what WWI were you talking about? The one where Russia betrayed her allies (who got involved because of alliance with her!). Made separate peace and paid Germany billions in gold and gave over Ukraine with it's resources - so that Germany could continue its fight against the former allies longer? How much money and lives did that betrayal cost US?
I see your memory is very selective. For a guy who does not support communists, you surely are thinking like one.
Lynx,
There is a huge difference between Vietnam and Afganistan.
1. There was invasion of North Vietnam into South Vietnam, not the other way around. Neither US nor South Vietnamese initiated the hostilities.
2. Every casualty of the Vietnam war was known immediately, as well as the total count. That was not the case with Afganistan.
miko
[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 04-11-2001).]
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Miko, if it's as simple as you say to create such immediate benefit to the US economy, then why wasn't it done before this crisis, why were China given most favoured trading partner status and why all the lobbying by American multinationals to open the Chinese market? It cannot be as simple as you make out. For one thing, certain sectors of the US economy would benefit, but others would be hit by an embargo - this might produce a disproportionate effect.
As for the alledged incident on Mount Longdon - the key word is alledged. It was never proved. Frankly, they were in dire straits to even be on the Flakland islands, no matter what their status. I think the current job title would be 'Defence Consultant'.
I personally reckon their were American defense advisors there, but what happened to them will probably never be known.
The US government has never sold arms? What about the CIA funded supply of Stinger missiles to the Mujhadeen (sp) in Afghanistan. The arms to Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war? The supply of 'advisors' to many gulf states? The supply of arms to Israel?
The US government granted export licenses for this equipment and in the case of the Stingers, actually funded the venture.
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 04-11-2001).]
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Originally posted by Dowding:
Miko, if it's as simple as you say to create such immediate benefit to the US economy, then why wasn't it done before this crisis, why were China given most favoured trading partner status and why all the lobbying by American multinationals to open the Chinese market? It cannot be as simple as you make out.
Because it is not that simple. There are trade agreements and organisations aimed towards opening of the trade.
It is not considered a good gesture to restrict someone's access to your markets without a good reason - like the country in question attacking planes in international space or at least pretending that the product is dangerous (like American meat - hehe...).
Yes, we are losing money/jobs to some countries because we adhere to agreements. A recession in US is not a good reason for us to renege on our international agreements and obligations.
Yes, there are those selling to China and they are interested in trade.
Yes, there are those buying from China at cheaper price because chinese can be paid less, jailed and make to work or not bother to spend money protecting people/environment. Those are also interested in more trade.
There also people who think that opening trade with China will spread democracy.
All those groups are lobbying for more trade with China.
Also chinese themselves with their contribution to our presidential campaigns.
The manufacturers who cannot compete with Chinese slave labor, workers who lose their jobs because of that and people who think that trade with Chinese communists is just helping the enemy - those lobby against trade with China.
For one thing, certain sectors of the US economy would benefit, but others would be hit by an embargo - this might produce a disproportionate effect.
You must be slow today... Of course some would benefit and some would be hit. We have $60 billions trade deficit. That means that some already benefit and some are already hit to the tune of $60 billions in favor of those being hit. What is there to speculate?
The only reason we could lose more then we would gain is if we were buying some strategic or high-tech stuff that we could not get any other way. That is definitely not the case.
We are biying consumer junk and they are buying industrial equipment, infrastructure, technology, etc.
Of course everyone could lose in the long run on the trade limitations - because of less competition and more expencive products. (US would lose less, of course because we have larger internal market and better technology.) But in case of financing a single hostile power through trade, not losing may cost more in the long run.
miko
[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 04-11-2001).]
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Originally posted by Boroda:
Maverick, the above-mentioned description was used by one man you probably know in a private correspondence with me. As for my parents - it's not your business. I may look like an idiot (at least my own opinion doesn't count), but I am not a communist, at least I don't support people who call themself "communists".
Methinks you doth protest too much.
Your posts read pretty much like the party spin.
Mav
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Dowding-
Won't place any kind of value on who was right or wrong in this incident- though my bias should be obvious. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I think I can tell you why I view you as largely anti-American. You are guaranteed to always take an anti-American stance in any argument or debate where the US is concerned. You may do this for the sake of argument, you may only be playing the devil's advocate, but it is consistant. I know when I read one of your comments it will include a slight of some form or another to my government.
Hey, you're entitled to your opinion, no problem here (and it doesn't matter if there was). OTOH it does seem to me that you lean pretty heavily one direction.
Boroda-
There are a few that are pretty upset over this deal, and you are hearing their emotions. Most of them who have called you names probably don't really mean it. I can't apologize for them, but I guess it is as understandable as you being upset that some of these guys have criticized something they haven't lived under as you have.
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Chinese dont blow up thei own troops on accident...no....no.......... ..they do it on purpose.
As for boroda what about what yall are doin the frickin chechynans the funniest part is how with a huge armuy and resources you cant beat them which you shouldnt ecven be tryin anyway
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I say we give china Jesse Jackson and bill clinton, and good friend Al Gore the potato(wait thats Bill) for the plane then well never have to deal with China again and they might even get rid of Jesse Jackson for us. He calls himself a reverend he produced a bastard for god sake(Probably an IMBECCILIC RUSSIAN one at that).