Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Bruno on October 19, 2005, 05:45:29 AM
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Some of the Spits folks have claimed that the Spit F.IX was just 'a '42 plane', this is true if you only consider production but from what I can gather in was in service into '43. It may have ahd the smallest production of the IXs but that's not what I am asking.
Does anyone have a list of Spitfire squadrons broken down by variant and date?
In '43 how many Spit F.IX squadrons were there? How many Spit V squadrons were there in '43 (by sub-type if possible)?
How many other Spit LF.IX squadrons were there in '43 etc...
Please don't turn this thread into an argument. If you have relevant data please post it.
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Originally posted by Bruno
Some of the Spits folks have claimed that the Spit F.IX was just 'a '42 plane', this is true if you only consider production but from what I can gather in was in service into '43. It may have ahd the smallest production of the IXs but that's not what I am asking.
Does anyone have a list of Spitfire squadrons broken down by variant and date?
In '43 how many Spit F.IX squadrons were there? How many Spit V squadrons were there in '43 (by sub-type if possible)?
How many other Spit LF.IX squadrons were there in '43 etc...
Please don't turn this thread into an argument. If you have relevant data please post it.
quit waving red flags before bulls then. :aok
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From what information I have, the MkIX was still very rare in 1943, and IXLF beings even rarer.
Qoute from Alan Deere, Biggin Hill, Wing Commander Flying
Unlike the Spitfire IXA, with which all other Spitfire IX wings in the Group were equipped, the IXB's supercharger came in at a lower altitude and the aircraft attained its best performance at 21,000 ft,
According to that qoute, there were only in pennypocket numbers, maybe 2-3 Squadrons equipping with it in 1943, the '1942' Merlin 61 version being the dominant type of MkIXs.
Mike Williams claims this to be dated March 1943, but wheter the qoute is true or 'doctored' I don't know, what I know that Alfred Price also qoutes Deere, but that qoute is different than Mike's version of it.
As for the July 1943 strenght of Fighter command, Spitfire strenght was dominated by MKVs, about 4 times as numerous as MkIX (all engine versions). Note that the MkVI is just a MkV with the same engine, and some provisions for high altitude work.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/715_1126999612_raf-fc-1943jun.jpg)
In short the MkIX did not became the 'main battle line' until 1944, by D-Day there were some 34 or so Squadrons operating on MkIXs, and a few still on SpitVs and some even on Hurris.
During 1943 it was the MkV that held the battle line, facing Bf 109G2, G-4 and G-6, and FW 190 A4 and A-5.
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From what information I have, the MkIX was still very rare in 1943, and IXLF beings even rarer.
Since I started looking myself that the conclusion I am coming to. I have gathered some sporadic information as it relates to how many of which type/variant of Spitfires were in squadron service in '43. The by far majority being Spit Vs and what variant of IX there was in service the majority seems to have been with a Merlin 61.
It appears that if AH is really getting rid of a 16lb Spit Vc in favor of the 12lb Vb AH's then the '43 Spitfire for AH will be the Spit F.IX with Merlin 61 @ 15lbs max boost. I guess the Seafire Mk III could be a 'rough' stand in for a Vc.
If AH is modeling a LF.XVI then there's no need for a LF.VIII because in actuality these will be '44 aircraft (or very late '43 in limited numbers) even at 18lbs max boost.
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Bear in mind that the majority of Spitfire F IXs had the Merlin 63, not Merlin 61.
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http://www.rafcommands.currantbun.com/Fighter/indexF.html
This is a not bad site, as with all sites its accuracy is not 100 percent, but you can get some info from it and x-ref with books.
Cant be just a 42 plane because the LF IX was introduced in the Spring of 43, so thats a no brainer.
Here is what I have in broad strokes for #s:
End of 1942 there were 10 Sqns of Spit IXs in Britain (all F.IXs).
By the summer of 1943, there were @ 20 Spitfire IX squadrons in Fighter Command. Easily 400 fighters, and more than the entire JG strength in France, I might add. They also bore the brunt of offensive ops over France. Spit Vs were also heavily used, but were playing a more supporting role by this time.
By 1944 D-Day there were 56 Squadrons of IXs in Britain (34 in ADBG and 22 in 2nd TAF).
None of the above includes IXs in the MED and ITALY.
I will leave it at that and wont hijack the thread, in any case, thats not a bad link above. OOB info is always tough to find :)
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Thanks Squire, good enough...
EDIT:
great link as well...
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Kurfurst -
quote:
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Unlike the Spitfire IXA, with which all other Spitfire IX wings in the Group were equipped, the IXB's supercharger came in at a lower altitude and the aircraft attained its best performance at 21,000 ft,
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Would seem to backup another bit of info I found about pilots referring to Merlin 61/63 IX as IXA, and Merlin 66 IX as IXB.
Further complicating the Spit IXC debate.
As for numbers - unsure, but in service dates are easy
1942 F IX (initailly Mk V airframe with Merlin 61)
1943 LF IX
1943 LF VIII
1944 LF XVI
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Keep in mind that Kurfurst also ignores where squadrons were stationed and what they were used for. Instead he prefers to see all Spit types evenly distributed and the commanders ignorant to any advantages using the Spitfire Mk IXs in harder fought areas or missions might be. When he does that he can make the Spitfire Mk IX/VIII/XVI look irrelevant well into 1944. This is a complete twisting of the data of course, but it suits his purposes and methods.
The Spitfire F.Mk IX was a mid 1942-through 1943 Spitfire. The Spitfire LF.Mk IX was an early 1943 through the end of the war Spitfire.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Keep in mind that Kurfurst also ignores where squadrons were stationed and what they were used for. Instead he prefers to see all Spit types evenly distributed and the commanders ignorant to any advantages using the Spitfire Mk IXs in harder fought areas or missions might be. When he does that he can make the Spitfire Mk IX/VIII/XVI look irrelevant well into 1944. This is a complete twisting of the data of course, but it suits his purposes and methods.The Spitfire F.Mk IX was a mid 1942-through 1943 Spitfire. The Spitfire LF.Mk IX was an early 1943 through the end of the war Spitfire.
Yeah-yeah, thank you for your opinion, you really added a lot.
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Originally posted by Nashwan
Bear in mind that the majority of Spitfire F IXs had the Merlin 63, not Merlin 61.
How many were produced of each type, or are you taking a guess ?
The Merlin 63 entered production only in the first half of 1943. It's very doubtful it would all the sudden replace all Merlin 61 powered MkIXs, especially considering how few MkIXs the RAF had on hand, it would have been a luxury to just throw out the Merlin 61 ones for one with new engine that offered - well, marginally higher output. It would make a lot more sense that they kept using the Merlin 61 ones along with the newer engined ones.
We know that there where 10 Sqns in the RAF in late 1942, naturally all had Merlin 61s. In mid 1943, there were 10 Sqns in England, and 1-2 in the med with MkIXs. It would make sense that most of them were Merlin 61 versions.
How many MkIXs were produced in 1943? Looking at the MkXIV production - a few dozen produced each month at best -, and the fact that it took a year to raise 10 new Squadrons w MkIX compared to the end of 1942, it seems that MkIX production didn't gear up until the end of 1943. Was there a shortage of two-staged engines?
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Seperate the two issues. Are we talking purely historical or in terms of what works best for AH including both the MA and Scenarios.
The primary Spit IX variant is the LFIX. I suppose you could add that and completely skip the Clipped LFXVIe and the LFVIII.
But for the Spit fans that would be a huge disservice. In terms of scenario use, the LFVIII is the primary Spit ride for the MTO, CBI and Pacific. Throw in the skinning possibilites being far greater for the VIII then any other variant.
If you go with just a standard wing LFIX, then which armament do you choose? Universal or E wing? Or do we go back to the hodgepodge of one version with two armament options?
The clipped Spit was a reality and adding a clipped LFXVIe adds the clipped and E wing variant while allowing for a standard FIX with the Universal wing. Again the squadrons that operated them were different, skinning options and scenario use options are increased.
Ultimately the 41 Spit Vb becomes a better option then a later Vc for a number of reasons. Again in scenario use it fits for both the ETO and MTO. It's lesser performance more then likely is actually similar to the tropicalized Vc used in the Pac and MTO since the performance penalty from that huge Vokes filter really had an impact on the Vc. Since there is no Vokes on the AH V model, the earlier performance Vb would be a reasonable compromise.
As near as I can tell, the line up that Pyro and company have come up with is the best compromise to cover the majority of Spit variants and time frames, in particular if they do complete an LFVIII.
As for how many and when in service, we'll clearly argue about it til the end of time. I at one time posted a list of all the squadrons that operated Spit IX/XVIs and when they got them, but clearly that didn't sink in :)
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Yeah, that was a really good list Guppy, but unfortunately it doesnt tell if its F, LF, or HF mark...
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Seperate the two issues. Are we talking purely historical or in terms of what works best for AH including both the MA and Scenarios
Well both...
I don't care anything about the main. Specific plane type there has little impact on overall game play. The main won't get any better then it is now. For events, ToD and scenarios the plane set matters much more.
I was looking for Spitfire information for inclusion into the 8th AF theater. I have plenty of mission descriptions but the reference to plane type is generic. I was looking specifically for squadron service dates / squadrons assignments for each type we expect to have in AH for the first ToD. (Vb, F.IX Merlin 61, LF.XVIe, and possibly an VIII)
The LFVIII is the primary Spit ride for the MTO, CBI and Pacific. Throw in the skinning possibilites being far greater for the VIII then any other variant.
How many VIII with a Merlin 63?
In how many squadrons were they fully deployed (I have information on productions dates and rough dates of service entry but very little of full deployment and specific squadrons).
The clipped Spit was a reality and adding a clipped LFXVIe adds the clipped and E wing variant while allowing for a standard FIX with the Universal wing. Again the squadrons that operated them were different, skinning options and scenario use options are increased.
As it seems the XVIe CW seems to be a given. There is still some question as to a LF.VIII be adding to AH. IMHO using the LF.XVI (CW or not) is a better 'stand-in' for the LF.XI, range being the main consideration. If Spits are included in the 8th AF ToD range will matter.
Ultimately the 41 Spit Vb becomes a better option then a later Vc for a number of reasons. Again in scenario use it fits for both the ETO and MTO. It's lesser performance more then likely is actually similar to the tropicalized Vc used in the Pac and MTO since the performance penalty from that huge Vokes filter really had an impact on the Vc. Since there is no Vokes on the AH V model, the earlier performance Vb would be a reasonable compromise.
I won't argue with that. However, if you spent any time watching folks react to choices like the above you will find that 90% of the time they choose up rather then down (Typhoon standing in for a Beaufighter anyone?). Especially considering the Vb has only 60 rpg.
As for how many and when in service, we'll clearly argue about it til the end of time. I at one time posted a list of all the squadrons that operated Spit IX/XVIs and when they got them, but clearly that didn't sink in
I missed that post, I will do a search...
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I remember that thread Guppy, but im damned if I can find it.
Like lightbulbs and batteries, there are always a dozen around when you dont need one.
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The bulk of Mk VIIIs were powered by Merlin 66s. I don't know the precise number though. The Merlin 63s were rare and I don't see the need to add that version.
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Originally posted by Kurfürst
Yeah, that was a really good list Guppy, but unfortunately it doesnt tell if its F, LF, or HF mark...
And we're trying to figure out this why? (edit: Oops, saw your reply after I posted this one Bruno. I get the point you were after) The favorite of the RAF Spit IX drivers was, in their words, the Spitfire IXB, which officially was known as the Spitfire LFIX with the Merlin 66.
Clearly the first Spit IXs into service were IXAs as the RAF pilots referred to them. Better known as Spitfire FIX.
Just found a list in Spit the Hist of the RAF squadrons that operated the FIX including the time frame. List as follows:
Squadron
1 April-November 44
6 December 45-December 46
19 August 43-January 44
28 August-September 45
32 August 44-March 47
33 December 43-October 44
43 January 44-May 47
56 May-July 44
64 July 42-July 44
65 September 42-October 42. August-December 43
66 May 43-April 45, September 46-September 47
72 February 43-December 46
73 1944-47
74 1942-45
This clearly doesnt list Auxillary Squadrons, Commonwealth squadrons or folks like the Poles, Czechs, Free French etc.
Bottom line still is that production numbers clearly show far more LFIX built then FIX and HFIX, with not many HFIX built since the airwar had move downwards. Considering they were using pressurized Spit VII in regular fighter camo with regular wings in 44, this would make sense.
So in the end, it still makes sense to have an FIX for 42-43. A LFVIII for 43-44 and a clipped LFXVIE for 44-45. Just a bit of Spitfire heaven for the Spit fans.
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So in the end, it still makes sense to have an FIX for 42-43. A LFVIII for 43-44 and a clipped LFXVIE for 44-45. Just a bit of Spitfire heaven for the Spit fans.
I was hoping to narrow it down a bit more, by month and by squadron...
I am mostly interested in '43 WETO...
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The list of Spit IX/XVI squadrons and dates of service
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/810_1129753603_more-spits.jpg)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/810_1129753309_ixsquadrons.jpg)
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According to the RAF own website
RE:Mk VIII , all but 1 of the Far East sqns operated Mk VIII's..
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: WETO Typhoon, Mossie VI, Boston III, Lancaster? info will be needed too at some point for TOD. I think there is often entirely too much emphasis/debate on Spits, they were not the only combat a/c the RAF deployed 43-44...
Just a friendly heads up.
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Originally posted by Squire
: WETO Typhoon, Mossie VI, Boston III, Lancaster? info will be needed too at some point for TOD. I think there is often entirely too much emphasis/debate on Spits, they were not the only combat a/c the RAF deployed 43-44...
Just a friendly heads up.
Yup,
Was just the Spits were up for remodel.
We were hoping for a range to cover 40 thru 44/45 (as per 109/190s) but alas it's looking doubtful.
Yes the MkXVI was 1944 plane, but its being brought in at 1943 performance levels (LF IX).
Yet again we will be missing free spits for 1944/45 (with matching performance levels).
Already bent over, just waiting for the inevitable shaft yet again.
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Originally posted by Squire
: WETO Typhoon, Mossie VI, Boston III, Lancaster? info will be needed too at some point for TOD. I think there is often entirely too much emphasis/debate on Spits, they were not the only combat a/c the RAF deployed 43-44...
Just a friendly heads up.
I have plenty of information on those aircraft. This thread is emphasing Spitfires because I am having trouble tracking them down by variant / date / squadron.
Keep on crying Kev (right on que)...
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Hi Bruno,
Maybe this link will help you:
http://www.rafcommands.currantbun.com/Fighter/indexF.html
We once had a very good thread on this forum trying to establish service introduction dates for all types in WW2. Of course, we never managed to get a complete list :-)
In that thread, I suggested using the date of the first combat mission flown in squadron strength as basis for comparison, which seems to have been accepted by most posters at that time.
I believe in the case of the Spitfires, the time difference between service introduction, going operational on the type, and the squadron flying a combat mission typically was quite short, so Dan's table and the link above will probably answer your questions with sufficient accuracy anyway :-)
Still, I'd like to point out that with some types, the time interval was noticable, so it's a good idea to stay aware of the difference between service and combat introduction.
Here's the old thread:
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26235
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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From the other thread Hohun linked to:
Hi,
here's some Spitfire data:
Spitfire I: 9/1939 (well, in service even earlier)
Spitfire II: 6/1940
Spitfire V: 4/1941
Spitfire IX: 7/1942
Spitfire LF IX: 3/1943 (with 611 Squadron)
Spitfire HF IX: 4/1943 (with 74 Squadron)
Spitfire XIV: 3/1944 (first mission)
Main source: Chaz Bowyer, "Supermarine Spitfire". The LF/HF IX and XIV are from BBS posts which I didn't file away properly :-( Perhaps someone else can confirm these dates?
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
Hohun thanks for the reply. Squire supplied me with your first link above. Also, here's a link to a 'cut-n-paste' of Aircraft service introduction dates that was compiled on Butch's AAW2 forum:
Aircraft Service Introduction Dates (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=137572)
Here's a link to the original thread on Butch's forums (requires registration)
WW2 Fighter entry into service by date. (http://www.allaboutwarfare.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=85)
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Christopher Shore's "Aces High" goes quite well into detail with squadrons and aircraft types. However, it takes quite some compilations to sort all out. I started it with Excel, but never find the time to continue...
Typical, - but anyway, that is a good source.
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Intro dates are of course neccesary, as long as we all remember that all combat a/c were introduced into service gradually, with a few exceptions.
Those dates look correct for 1st "squadron sized" units from what I have. Within a month anyways, without getting into fruitless quibbling.
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The dates I am really interested in is 'squadron deployment' or 'full squadron service'. The problem with production dates and/or delivery dates is you can sometimes find gaps of 'some months' between those dates and 'squadron service' and/or first combat/losses.
The problem with just first combat/loss dates are you may have 1 or 2 squadrons with a particular aircraft who are flying 'combat missions' but for whatever reason they have not made contact.
Speaking of Claims / Combat u. Losses I was finally able to log onto Tony Wood's site:
Combat Claims u. Casualties (http://bb.1asphost.com/lesbutler/tony/tonywood.htm)
In particular I was able to give a quick scan of:
RAF & US Fighter Commands - with annotated text. Issue I 1943 (PDF) (http://bb.1asphost.com/lesbutler/tony/allied_1943_issue_I.pdf)
From looking at losses and Ramrod descriptions I see lots of F.IXs, LF.Vbs and LF.Vcs and very few other Spitfire types:
(all the below date from late '43)
RAF 10 & 11 Group: Ramrod 404
Heavy-Bomber Support
09.45 Z: Spitfires & Typhoons
R.A.F. Support in conjunction with Heavy-Bomber Attacks. 12 Typhoon FB.Ib bombers of 183 Squadron took-off from Predannack at 10.00 hrs., to attack the airfields at Brest/Guipavas and Morlaix, but both attacks were rendered abortive owing to unfavourable weather conditions. Uneventful fighter-sweeps over Brittany by 71 Spitfires Vb, Vc and VII of 310, 312, 313, 616, 340 and 341 Squadrons and 15 Typhoons of 193 and 266 Squadrons were also carried out. Withdrawal-support was provided by 24 Spitfires IX* of 131 and 165 Squadrons, and 14 Typhoons of 257 and 266 Squadrons which swept the Brest-Morlaix-St. Brieuc areas. One Typhoon Ib and pilot of 257 Squadron are missing.
Withdrawal-Support: Culmhead
RAF 10 Gp. 165 Sqn. 12 Spitfire LF.Vc 14.10-16.15 Ramrod 404 4 - 0 - 0 E/A No casualty WD-S: St. Brieuc-Paimpol
* type not specified
and
RAF 10 Group Instep-Patrols
RAF 10 Gp. 341 Sqn. 8 Spitfire L.F.Vb 14.18-16.00 Instep 0 - 1 - 2 FW 190 No casualty N.W. Ushant
and
Withdrawal-Support 2nd ATF:
RAF 83 Gp. 403 Sqn. 12 Spitfire F.IX 13.05-15.07 Ramrod 396 2 - 0 - 0 Me 109G No casualty H-BS Ludwigshafen
Now I know none of the above is not proof of anything except that there were F.IXs, LF.Vs etc... were still in service. It will be this weekend before I can got through the list in depth. I know I am most likely being anal about this type of thing but it keeps me busy...:p
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As for the XVIe (sixteen)/IXe, assuming we get it? I do beleive thats June 1944. I will have to dbl check.
"The dates I am really interested in is 'squadron deployment' or 'full squadron service"
-Yup, those are the ones that matter.
...again, in regards to the Mk.Vs. , L.F. Vs are not Vs. They are a +18 lb boost Merlin 50M, before anybody gets too excited. You will never see them in AH because they are too damn scary. They would be the best below 10k dogfighter in the game if they ever modelled them. Ahh well, I can dream I guess :)
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A clipped-winged LF.Vc would have been one plane I asked for, that is if I flew Spitifres...
The XVIe could stand in for an LF.XI, I don't think anyone would object to much, provided it doesn't have the uber 'bubble canopy'...
;)
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Spit V's stayed in service until 1944 AFAIK. Well, they survived quite long didn't they ;)
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Its a real can of worms trying to nail down subtypes, many refs will simply say "IXs" or "Vs" and not say if they were LF Vs or F IXs or LF IXs. It can be a real pain, and it leads to erroneous info.
I only have to point to the B C E wing threads to show how jumbled it can get...then the F and LF stuff on top of that. Freaking alphabet soup. As it is you have to start tracking down serial #s sometimes to figure it out.
If I was in charge in 1942 it would have been like this:
Spit V-5
Spit V-10
Spit IX-5
Spit IX-15
Like that. Done. Violaters would have been shot as examples.
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Originally posted by Bruno
A clipped-winged LF.Vc would have been one plane I asked for, that is if I flew Spitifres...
The XVIe could stand in for an LF.XI, I don't think anyone would object to much, provided it doesn't have the uber 'bubble canopy'...
;)
Like to see the XVI with the bubble canopy.
Apparently it made little difference to performance.
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Bubble canopies are for P-51s :)
I think I will like it no matter what in any case. Should be a sweet ride.