Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Nash on October 19, 2005, 10:32:16 PM
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Former State Department Chief of Staff Lawrence Wilkerson gives a
talk. (http://www.newamerica.net/images/Event_520_2.wmv)
For people interested in the Constitution, like Toad, or those interested in the ways the Government relates with the military, like Wolfala, or just folks like me who are interested in how things work.... this talk won't dissapoint.
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is this the entire transcript? Don't have time to listen to it now; very busy this week.
http://news.ft.com/cms/s/c925a686-40f4-11da-b3f9-00000e2511c8.html
If this is the entire speech, I'll print and read tomorrow.
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I just don't have time to listen to the intro guy natter on and on.
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How the hell would you find something like this? :D
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Originally posted by Toad
is this the entire transcript? Don't have time to listen to it now; very busy this week.
http://news.ft.com/cms/s/c925a686-40f4-11da-b3f9-00000e2511c8.html
If this is the entire speech, I'll print and read tomorrow.
It's not the entire speech.
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Originally posted by Toad
I just don't have time to listen to the intro guy natter on and on.
lol...
Whatever. You're a busy guy.
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I read way faster than people talk. Way faster.
And the tiny little men talking in the box from far, far away in another place and time don't mesmerize me.
So, if there's a transcript....yeah, I'd prefer that. Funny Financial Times didn't print the entire thing.
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Transcript is out.
http://www.newamerica.net/Download_Docs/pdfs/Doc_File_2644_1.pdf
I'll read it tomorrow; I figured it'd come out in the short term.
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You should really watch the guy.
When it comes to politicos, he's refreshingly real.
Way too nerdy to get elected for anything though.
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Some are strong on auditory but I'm not one of them. I like to read stuff like this and re-read as I'm reading sometimes.
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Would you quit making excuses for not watching it? I mean fine, okay, really... I don't give a damn.
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I doubt I'll ever watch it. I don't watch CSPAN either.
While I think I'm going to enjoy reading it and it will interest me, the idea of watching the speech interests me not at all.
But since this isn't your view, your "way", I'm somehow "wrong" or "less" or "making excuses" right?
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Nope - you're just lazy.
Vocal, but lazy.
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You two are almost as fun as lazs2 and Beet1e.
:aok
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Let me get this strait. I just wanna be sure I'm reading this correctly. Nash is calling Toad lazy for reading the transcript of the speech, rather than watching the video? Do I have that correct? Really? Nash, go take a walk or something.
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Well yeah... it seems weird, but true.
I've skimmed pretty much everything assigned to me. That's just easy.
Coles Notes was my biatch. But you miss something with just a transcript... It's hollow.
Pretty tough to skim a vid though.
Besides.... the telling thing is... If I was, like Toad pretends to be, concerned about his country, he wouldn't need any encouragement to watch it. The fact that he's scrambling for a cheat sheet when, afterall, it'd just be an hour out of his time, says something to me.
I watch stuff like this as if it were the premiere episode of Seinfeld or something. Yeah, I really am that nuts.
So when someone says they want a crib and then goes on to try to explain stuff to me? Screw that.
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Toad should be able to choose his weapon when challenged.
Its the "manly" thing to do......
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I think they're putting something whacky in the water up there in igloo country. Lay off the tap water, budday!
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Nah... trust me bud, if you wanna say something, then say it. Damn the torpedoes. If what you said is crazy, well, okay, work on it or something. We're all going to die, and it's really the only way to live.
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Nash and Toad.. you sound like an old married couple.
Toad will soon buy a red sports car and Nash is getting a lover...
Maybe Seagoon should give you some advice on how to work on your relationship.
:p
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Toad will soon buy a red sports car and Nash is getting a lover...
The first time skimming through this I read it as suchL
Toad will soon buy a red sports car and Nash is getting a beaver...
Cultural word association I guess...:confused:
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Nash, when you want to read a book, do you get it on CD or just go ahead and read the book?
What all this should "say" to you is that you think your way is the only way.
Now THAT says something.
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Getting back to the article - that was one of the least favorite reads ever, but I found myself agreeing with all the guy's points. Its just that he as he spoke, he rambled and digressed at the transcript reflected that. I would really like to read position paper of his though, rather than a 30 page transcript. (I quit at the question and answer portion).
You can lose too much meaning in transcripts. For example, is "uh-uh" and affirmation or negation?
My summary of his points:
- far too much power concentrated at the top in this adminstration, important decisions being made in a shroud of secrecy. Worst administration since FDR in that regard. A powerful cabal exists between a forceful VP and Sec Def, and they basically ran over the disinterested Pres and his blindly devoted NSA, Rice. (If this guy wasn't already retired, he'd be out of work faster than Bunny Greenhouse was demoted.)
- the military is being broken by multiple tours and extensions made necessary by being stuck in Iraq.
- the government cannot react to crisis effecieintly because of too many competing, non-communicating departments and agencies.
I think he's right on target, but I doubt many people are really listening or understanding.
That's my take. Anybody else read it?
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Shame on you for not watching the video!
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I think it's a fair comment that you lose context and nuance by reading it only. I almost fell asleep watching it, so I couldn't imagine reading it in one sitting. I'm getting a little sleepy just thinking about it.
It wasn't in written form to start with, Toad, so the book analogy doesn't fit very well. He was speaking extemporaneously and not reading a prepared speech.
You could always right click on the link and save it in about 2 minutes. You could watch it at your leisure, skip over the rambling intro (like I did), or watch it a little at a time while checking on the BBQ... I couldn't watch it all the way through either.
He isn't a crackpot. oboe's summary covers it.
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well... if he is saying that the government is too big and too powerful and has too much control then I would agree with him..
If he thinks it should be bigger and more powerful but with his people running it instead of the evil booosh...
then, I don't agree with him.
simple huh?
lazs
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Originally posted by oboe
- far too much power concentrated at the top in this adminstration, important decisions being made in a shroud of secrecy. Worst administration since FDR in that regard.
Ummm and whats entirely bad about making important decisions secretly?
Seems FDR managed to win a world war that way.
OR should we have just said "Ok you Nazi Bazdads! We will be hitting the beaches of Normandy on June 5th or 6th Weather permitting to come and kick your arses"
Sorry, even if it is that way I just dont see the FDR connection
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In a semi defence of Nash. if you had played the video instead of reading it. You could have listened to it while reading something else thereby accomplishing two tasks at the same time.
Me, Im too lazy to read or watch it.
I'll just wait for the cliff notes here ;)
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Yes, I don't mean to attack Nash - I thank him for posting it, and intend to watch the video, time permitting.
I don't know much about his allegations of the FDR secrecy (unless it was referring to the development of the atomic bomb, in which case secrecy seems justified). But I think there's more to it than that - just not sure what it is.
Here's what he has to say about why its bad practice to make important decisions in secret:
Now let me tell you why I say that. Decisions that send men and women to die, decisions that have the potential to send men and women to die, decisions that confront situations like natural disasters and cause needless death or cause people to suffer misery that they shouldn’t have to suffer. Domestic and international decisions should not be made in a secret way. That’s a very, very provocative statement, I think. All my life I’ve been taught to guard the nation’s secrets. All my life I have followed the rules. I’ve gone through my special background investigations and all the other things that you need to do, and I understand that the nation’s secrets need guarding, but fundamental decisions about foreign policy should not be made in secret.
Let me tell you the practical reason – and here I’m jumping over really into both realms, the practical reasons why that’s true. You have probably all read books on leadership: “The Seven Habits of Successful People,” or whatever. If you as a member of the bureaucracy do not participate in a decision, you are not going to carry that decision out with the alacrity, the efficiency and the effectiveness you would if you have participated. When you cut the bureaucracy out of your decisions and then foist your
decisions, more or less out of the blue, on that bureaucracy, you can’t expect that bureaucracy to carry your decision out very well. And furthermore, if you’re not prepared to stop the feuding elements in that bureaucracy as they carry out your decision, you’re courting disaster.
And I would say that we have courted disaster in Iraq, in North Korea, in Iran.
Generally with regard to domestic crises like Katrina, Rita – and I could go on back – we haven’t done very well on anything like that in a long time. And if something comes along that is truly serious, truly serious, something like a nuclear weapon going off in a major American city, or something like a major pandemic, you are going to see the ineptitude of this government in a way that will take you back to the Declaration of Independence.
I think his ideas have merit, but like you, I'd prefer a Cliff's notes version. He just seems to ramble - I'd rather see this argument laid out in concise form with examples and references.
Remember last year when we didn't have enough flu vaccine? Someone was asleep at the switch, or some policy or decision along the way has made us too dependent on a few, foreign suppliers - and we just got lucky. Did we learn a lesson? I wouldn't bet on it.
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Originally posted by Nash
Nah... trust me bud, if you wanna say something, then say it. Damn the torpedoes.
I thought I was saying. I think you're being nutty. You get more out of watching the video, while Toad gets more out of reading the transcript...what's the diff?
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I read the transcript instead of watching the video because I'm on dial-up and was too lazy to wait for it to downloand. Sorry Nash, will you forgive me? :(
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There's another reference I don't get -- how could the Declaration of Independence demonstrate governmental ineptitude?
Am I thinking too hard about the example? The only government that could be implicated by the DoI is the British monarchy; a comparison to which to make some point about our own current government seems completely inappropriate.
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What MSN's Slate has to say about Wilkerson's speech (perhaps as close as we'll get to Cliffs Notes):
http://slate.msn.com/id/2128535/?nav=fix (http://slate.msn.com/id/2128535/?nav=fix)
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Originally posted by Sandman
You two are almost as fun as lazs2 and Beet1e.
:aok
I was thinking Archie and Meathead.
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And I'm with Archie on this one. Reading beats the crap out of sitting there like a zombie watching TV.
But I can't be arsed to read or listen to this one. :aok