Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Chairboy on October 20, 2005, 11:51:54 AM
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Not much, but I was quoted in the paper and didn't even realize it until someone told me. The name of the article included the words 'aerial combat', I'm sure there's a good joke there somewhere....
Sadly, the story did not include the words "unknown driver", "succesfully evaded police", or "time machine".
Here's the first half of the article:
http://www.registerguard.com/news/2005/10/19/a1.airport.1019.p1.php?section=cityregion
It's about the skydiver outfits at the airport I fly out of. Some of them dive into the pattern at 3,000+fpm, cut off other planes landing, and so on. On the ground, the jump masters don't wrangle the jumpers the way they should, which leads to my quote below.
The paper doesn't publish the whole thing to the web, but in the latter part, I'm quoted:
Pilot Ben Hallert reported that he was on final approach to land on July 31 when a group of people began walking from the drop zone across the runway.
"I decided to do an emergency go-around to avoid hitting them," he wrote. "If I had a horn on the plane, I would have been honking it, because this could have been really bad."
These guys have every right to use the airport, but they gotta fly safe. Remember that video I posted a couple months ago about the plane taxiing past really fast? Skydiver drop plane.
I R teh famous now.
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Time to get those 8x10 glossies and a personal assistant. :aok
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A horn?
LOL!
If there wuz ever a good use for a 16oz tall neck empty Bud bottle.....
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Here's the skydiver taxiing, btw, if you missed the last post:
http://hallert.net/misc/n9085g-fast-taxi.avi
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Don't forget about us when you leave for Hollywood.
I can tell my kid: "Daddy used to offend that guy on telly and he cried like a little baby"
:p
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ha ha ha
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wouldnt that kind of press lead to some sort of FAA investigation?
let's hope so for the safety of all the pilots in the area
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a pilot guilty of fast taxiing should have his bellybutton kicked by his fellow pilots.
I wouldn't wish an FAA investigation on anything short of a complete moron.. and in that case thye FAA, finding a kindred spirt, would probably let the dipwick walk.
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Skydivers are mad, walking across and active runway it typical of them. I would have delayed my go around:O just a little bit to send them a message and then claim I never saw them. ;)
Years ago as a teenager, I was visiting a gliding club. It was based on a military airfield but the public could just walk in and watch. (Imagine that now days :huh )
A guy was ahead of me and crossing the runway. He saw the glider tug approach, so he stopped to watch, right in the middle of the runway. :eek: The tug went around. I met the pilot years later. He told me they were always doing that. Even better some would actually walk up the middle of the runway!
One thing, do the skydivers parachute onto the field? With aircraft engines running? That kind of thing has led to nasty incidents. One where a girl descended into a the rotor blades of a helicopter. Did a lot of damage to the rotor blades I hear.:O
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The drop zone is immediately next to the runway, and they actually flare their chutes over the runway, that's how close.
We're not complaining because we think they should be elsewhere, it's just the crazy disregard for other pilots and safety that are getting to us.
Traffic Pattern Altitude is 1400 at the airport. The reporting point for the pattern (for entering on the 45) is half a mile out. I regularilly hear the skydiver planes reporting in at 5,000 at the reporting point (when they bother to use it). These planes get down before their jumpers do sometimes.
On the other hand, there's one guy that flys a Caravan at the field who's great. He has the biggest, fastest plane, but that doesn't stop him from flying a good pattern at TPA, being part of the queue, etc. If one of those pilots can do a good job, there's no reason the rest can't either.
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Chairboys just jealous cause he doesn't have the hard brass ones to skydive. Anyone can learn to fly, only a handful have the nads to skydive.
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My friend and I flew down to Flagler Bch. in Fla to eat at a diner located on the airport property. It is also a local skydiving hub.
The aircraft that the skydivers were using was this huge twin turbo-prop (don't remember the type). The goal was fast up and fast down.
They loaded about twenty skydivers and made their drop at 10000 and another drop at 12500. The twin went into a tight spin above the airport...didn't enter into the traffic pattern, he recovered at about 1000 feet agl and was coming straight in on final. Oh yeah...this is an uncontrolled airstrip. Well, there happen to be a Cessna that had just turned final right infront of the turbo-prop. On unicom the turbo-prop told the Cessna to go around. The Cessna pilot proceded to land, forcing the twin to go around. The A-hole in the twin buzzed the Cessna at about 25 feet. He then proceded to fly a normal pattern, then land.
The Cessna pilot had called the local FAA inspector "Fred the Fed" who is located at St. Augustine airport. After about twenty five minutes of watching the two pilots argue, the police and Fred the Fed showed up.
I don't know what resolution was reached, we left and flew back to Craig Field in Jax.
I was left witht the opinion that not only are skydivers crazy, the pilots who fly them are also.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
The drop zone is immediately next to the runway, and they actually flare their chutes over the runway, that's how close.
We're not complaining because we think they should be elsewhere, it's just the crazy disregard for other pilots and safety that are getting to us.
On the other hand While Im no pilot. wouldnt it be the ATC's responcability to clear the pilots for landing.
I would think they would want ot make sure the runway is clear for landing from anything including people next to to the runway that might put lives at risk.
Or is there some greed at work here to rush to get the plane down to save fuel and get the next group up?
Not meaning to sound offencive but it just seems to me that before a pilot is allowed to land the runway should be absolutely clear of any potential hazards especially people
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Most fields don't have ATC. You get radios (which others may or may not bother using) and the good ol' Mk.1 eyeball.
Some skydiving ops are good & safe, some aren't. It's all about getting that plane back on the ground to save gas & get another load up in the air.
Chairboy's not joking when he said sometimes the plane beats the divers back to the ground.
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Dredlock, this is an uncontrolled field, like, as indy007 said, over 95% are. We have rules and patterns to follow so that it isn' chaos, and the Skydivers are the guys who aren't following those rules.
Hence the complaint.
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my father was described as "the mysterious stranger" by the local news a while ago. was kinda funny.
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Originally posted by indy007
Chairboy's not joking when he said sometimes the plane beats the divers back to the ground.
I used to fly jumpers and would regularly beat the less experienced jumpers to the ground. The guys who were very experienced and just in it for free fall would open chutes later (not so much to be dangerous mind you) and book it to the ground.
After a few days doing this I discovered a few things...
Nosediving isn't the best option.
Steep spirals aren't that great either.
my best option with the equipment I had (old straight tail fastback C-182) was a spin from 10,000 (12,500 on occasion) about a mile from the airport opposite the jumpers.
When they invested in a 206 with speed brakes life got easier because with flaps and the brakes popped...it dropped like a rock. That was fun...I only jumped twice but I always wore a chute.
Interestingly enough...anybody see something on the discovery channel (one of them) about a skydiver getting stuck to the main gear of a 206 and the pilot landed with him in tow? Great TV the discovery channels are starting to have.
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I saw a jump pilot roll a 206 several times on the way down. Another jump pilot told me how 'floaters' used to irritate him by hanging on just too long and made rude gestures to him. His solution was a bootfull of rudder which always flung the miscreant out into space. :eek:
I made one jump as part of the army reserve. The intention was to make five jumps and qualify for para wings. You could do it in a civilian aircraft at the time. But headquarters took fright at the thought of a bunch of part timers running around sporting para wings. They immediately changed the rules and said it had to be military aircraft only. Ironic considering the only aircraft they had for para training was a Reims Rocket which was smaller than the 206 we were using. Ah well!
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My safety 'training' if you will included keep your @#%^ing eyes on the jumpers as they exit. If you got a drogue chute caught on the horizontal stab you have about a second to get all the right rudder you've got and then some in or the stab's ripping off when the weight of the jumper takes out the slack.
The thought of being left with an airplane sans horizontal stab wasn't good and I insisted I do a couple jumps (for emergency purposes) and wear a chute on every flight.
I must say...jumping out of an airplane goes against every instinct natural to the preservation of life but it sure is fun. Mine were all AFF or Assisted Free Fall jumps so I was on my own to tumble wildly out of control for the first 10 seconds or so of the first one until I became very stable on my back and was guided right side up by the two instructors. The second one I faired much better and wasn't too out of control and eventually found time to smile :)
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I guess there wre two sides to every story.
We share our runway with both gliders and normal planes )mostly pop planes but now and then a jet graces us with its presence).
There are hard rules about when and how to cross the runway at every DZ here. At our DZ you're not allowed to cross the runway if you're below 500 meters - roughly 1500 feet. Do it, and the first time you may goet off with a warning. Second time, you get grounded. The glider have a tow cable and if a skydiver gets clipped in that, it's bad news. If we' find ourselves too low to cross the runway, we land on the "motor plane" side of the runway.
We get crap for that now and then, from the pilots over there.
We get crap for opening on the motorplane side of the runway. Some of them seem unable to grasp the concept of free fall drift. Strong uppers will mean we get dropped far up wind.
Everything is done to ensure separation between skydivers and planes. However, lots of things can happen. A bad spot may put you far from your desired target. A wacky opening (say, line twists under a high performance canopy) is gonna eat away your altitude.
Our pilots clear our airspace. They're in command of the plane, they decide when it's time to open the door, or whether to go around for another round. Skydivers clear it as well, doing a visual scan as they spot. Spotting is not an exact sicence, with different wind layers doing different things.
There's been a number of casualties from mid air impacts between skydivers and planes, including jump planes. No one is interested in that. Pilots want to fly safely, and skydivers want to skydive safely. It serves no purpose to create an "us vs. them" athosphere, although it'd be naeive to think animosity between the groups do not exist. After all, both groups in a way endanger the other.
Skydivers will sometimes swoop hangars and whatnot. And steal golf carts and start big bonfires. Sometimes student skydivers will go into brainlock or underestimate winds, landing near or sometimes on the runway. Sometimes experienced skydivers end up landing close to or on the runway.
And sometimes a pilot will find himself in "skydiver airspace", speeding through directly under skydivers under canopy. We have some control but we cannot climb our canopies (except for a few seconds after which our canopies will dive sharply).
There are stories in both communities about how thos f*ed up "meatbomb" almost crashed into a plane that was landing, or how this ***** for brains Maverick Wannabe nearly flew into an entire load of skydivers.
The sky is the playground for both groups and I doubt either group is gonna stop.
Oh btw Golfer - di you ever had the fun of having a 4 way freefly group doing a head down exit from a 206? :D. Out pilot dinnae like us hanging around trying to get into position, so he did the very nice "kick right rudder, look at nuts fall off" thingy :aok
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Just so you realize Santa, my close encounter was not an errant skydiver being gusted across my airspace, a victim to the fierce moods of an uncaring weather god.
It was a group of skydivers, including the jumpmaster, walking across the runway while I was on short final.
Also, the video I posted of the jump plane taxiing by at 30mph, it was not the result of a fluke tail gust, a stuck throttle, or camera zoom focus trickery.
So... I'm pretty sure there's only one side to this story, in the sense of the phrase you're using.
Best regards.
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And oh yeah, stay outta our airspace. And our planes. They got priority.
They're, like, jump planes and stuff. :D
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Originally posted by StSanta
and skydivers want to skydive safely.
This from a group of people who think its cool to jump out of a perfectly good airplane.
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BTW, I sent a copy of this to my primary flight instructor, who now flies biz jets. He told me that when he saw the email subject that one of his former students "was in the paper", his heart sped up and I had his immediate attention.
He was happy to read that it was not an "incident". I should have started the email talking about how darn hard it is to keep track of exactly where that darn DC ADIZ starts....
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Oh btw Golfer - di you ever had the fun of having a 4 way freefly group doing a head down exit from a 206? . Out pilot dinnae like us hanging around trying to get into position, so he did the very nice "kick right rudder, look at nuts fall off" thingy
Never a head down exit with 4...but I've had 3 dangling out there at once and it makes you want to beat them off with a stick. They did a normal exit with one guy way way outboard, one on the step and the third on the halfway out the door. Crazy jumpers :furious
Also, the video I posted of the jump plane taxiing by at 30mph, it was not the result of a fluke tail gust, a stuck throttle, or camera zoom focus trickery.
Chair there are a few things that you'll learn the next few years. The first is not everybody adheres to student pilot standards of excellence and thoroughness. In fact I don't remember the last time I laid plotter to sexual chart and figured out my course. Nor do I use the -D-> key on those same flights when I haven't figured out my course line on a sexual chart. That is NOT a dig.
In a perfect world everybody would get a wx briefing, never fly with an inop piece of equipment and never get off their altitude more than an inch. As it happens...they don't. One of the first things I learned when doing a multi rating was about comfort level. There are things that some are comfortable with and some are not. In my case...just handling an airplane with two engines seemed intimidating the first time the checklist read "repeat steps 1-5 for right engine." I taxied slow, took my time and was very cautious with the power. Something that reassured me soon after takeoff were the words "You will not exceed my comfort level in this airplane" from my instructor. He'd flown this airplane for hundreds of hours, knew it inside and out and every idiosyncrasy of the airplane.
A few hundred hours in the PA-23 Aztec/Apache models alone I know what he meant. I tell my students the same thing and it's amusing to look at the left seat and see myself a couple years ago with the same look on their face.
The long awaited point of this is what exceeds your comfort level is well within tolerances for someone else who's been there and done that hundreds of times before. I haven't seen the video of the fast taxi...but I'm sure I've taxied as fast.
I've made whole flights without using a checklist.
I said the nav light burned out in flight.
I left the master switch on overnight.
I've flown an airplane 150 miles home without brakes on a cold dark night.
I've dumped strained fuel on the ramp.
I've tied down my buddy's tail without him knowing it.
My buddy tied down my tail without me knowing it.
I've been intercepted by an F-16...three times (hmm?)
I've survived 2 ramp checks.
I've buzzed the tower, the field and a friend's house (which happened to be on an airport)
I've never felt out of control in an airplane.
I started writing at 3am...it's almost 3:30est and I'm sleepy. The looooong awaited point is that as you gain experience, your comfort level will expand. Things you'd think as high risk today you'll look back and shake your head at years from now. I looked in my first logbook not long ago and I made a remark about the 'low' 5 miles of visibility and haze on a short x/c I'd flown as a new private pilot. An ILS to minimums makes that look like a sunny day. I won't deny that there are some loony skydiving ops out there...but rest assured the pilots know what they're doing.
Again...none of this is a dig. I do not condone or encourage any acts described. I'm not suggesting you try anything you don't feel comfortable with because that's what it's all about. Back in my line service days I turned down a flight to pick up parts at a nearby airport because the wx was around 5 miles visibility. I accepted one a year later that was 300ft and 3/4 mile visibility. A lot changed between those days and you'll be surprised at how much you learn flying regularly.
I also apologise for any spelling mistakes I don't know about and any 'wrong tone' of anything here but I'm fighting to stay awake. Good luck, good night and happy flying :)
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It's funny, because you're describing the main factors that kill pilots as described in the book 'The Killing Zone', a book about risk factors for pilots. It describes how complacency increases as you fly, and eventually, you get bitten in the ass. One of the things it describes is how self-reinforcing a gradual laxxing of attention is. You skip sumping the fuel one day because you left the tester behind or are in a hurry, and the flight goes without a hitch. Within a few flights, fuel sumping is optional in your mind, and eventually, you just start skipping it. Everything is fine until that one day when there actually IS water in it because someone left a fuel cap open (that's a specific example I encountered once) overnight, and you lose your engine on takeoff.
I don't presume to judge, of course, but I cannot help but notice that your preceding post is almost word for word describing a series of factors and decisions that, in countless NTSB and NASA (if they're lucky) reports, preceeded an 'incident'.
I have made a conscious decision that my personal 'comfort level' will be different. It may mean that I'm more of a 'fuddy duddy' in the air, with all my checklists and personal minimums, but I've got two kids and I'm gonna watch them grow up, not be a blip in the news.
I will presume that your post is a 'test', because I know that you're an experienced aviator who I don't think would fall into such a trap.
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Coulda just buzzed them..
Knocked one of them with your gear..
say you didn't see them till it was too late.
:huh
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Never a head down exit with 4...but I've had 3 dangling out there at once and it makes you want to beat them off with a stick. They did a normal exit with one guy way way outboard, one on the step and the third on the halfway out the door. Crazy jumpers
I hear our pilot puts our C-182 into a slight dive and uses full rudder deflection when we're more than 3 people outside the plane. I'm kind of amazed the aircraft keeps flying with such an uneven load, and so much drag on the right hand side of the plane.
He does grumble a bit when we launch 4-ways though :D
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Also, the video I posted of the jump plane taxiing by at 30mph, it was not the result of a fluke tail gust, a stuck throttle, or camera zoom focus trickery.
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Is this a huge problem? We have a long paved runway, with our hangar at one end. I don't know the speed we taxi at, but at times (depending on pilot), it's near 30mph on the runway. Some other PPL pilots also taxi at such speeds. Not sure what the max taxi limit is on the runway is.
Normal PPL pilots don't have to worry much about "turnaround time". For a big skydiving operation using twin turbine airplanes, turnaround time is pretty important. It's a job for the pilots and livelihood for everyone employed at the DZ (instructors, packers, DZ owner, ST&A, tandem masters).
In car traffic, it's customary to let the "professionals" have as easy a time as possible as they're doing their job and depend on it. Not sure what the custom is amongst pilots.
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Originally posted by Hawklore
Coulda just buzzed them..
Knocked one of them with your gear..
say you didn't see them till it was too late.
:huh
Generally pissing off people who belong to a fringe sport that require some risk management techniques, a certain amount of self assertion and have a high portion of young males does seem a bit like a bad idea.
I wouldn't mess with a bunch of climbers just because they annoyed me for instance. Your mileage may vary. :D
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Originally posted by Chairboy
The drop zone is immediately next to the runway, and they actually flare their chutes over the runway, that's how close.
We're not complaining because we think they should be elsewhere, it's just the crazy disregard for other pilots and safety that are getting to us.
You sure they flare above the runway? Unless you're swooping, flaring above the runway will most likely put you *on* the runway.
Jumpers generally try to stay away from pavement. For one, there's funky turbulence. For another, it can hurt to land there. And if you fall, your gear can get all messed up.
I know it can be hard to judge distance when watching canopies. You sure they flare (intentionally) on the runway? If so, they're irresponsible and dangerous and should be grounded. But knowing jumpers, I doubt anyone intentionally aim for something that'd hurt to butt-slide on.
What's the name of the DZ btw?
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This is all at 77S, and the drop zone is about 20 ft from the runway. I've centered this image on it, it's the light colored grass rectangle immediately to the right of the runway, and prevailing winds being what they are, they do flare just over the edge of the runway, but again, that's not what we're complaining about.
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Creswell,+OR&ll=43.933359,-123.007232&spn=0.004052,0.010213&t=k&hl=en
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K it's pretty tight if they land in the rectangle. Kind of strange when they have a huge open space to land in. Do they have to cross the runway to get back at the packing area?
Looks like lots of possible "out landing" places too.
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Yes, they have to cross the runway, like I've mentioned before in the thread. In fact, the problem that I wrote about that got me quoted in the paper was that a group of just-landed jumpers walked across the runway I was on as I was on short final.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
It's funny, because you're describing the main factors that kill pilots as described in the book 'The Killing Zone', a book about risk factors for pilots.
I will presume that your post is a 'test', because I know that you're an experienced aviator who I don't think would fall into such a trap.
What I said:
I've taxied as fast.
I've made whole flights without using a checklist.
I said the nav light burned out in flight.
I left the master switch on overnight.
I've flown an airplane 150 miles home without brakes on a cold dark night.
I've dumped strained fuel on the ramp.
I've tied down my buddy's tail without him knowing it.
My buddy tied down my tail without me knowing it.
I've been intercepted by an F-16...three times (hmm?)
I've survived 2 ramp checks.
I've buzzed the tower, the field and a friend's house (which happened to be on an airport)
I've never felt out of control in an airplane.
Not a test. Confessing a few sins because others can learn. Also, accidents happen. I've seen a guy put a wingtip of a 172 into a hangar and he didn't need my help feeling bad about it. It can happen to me.
If you haven't done any of the above, you're a saint and should be recognized as such. I threw in the ramp check comment because being relaxed doesn't mean not being safe or thorough.
Also...if you think I don't sump my fuel you clearly have never flown a PA-23 Jalopie. That sucker has some kind of magnet that attracts fuel into the tanks...even when it doesn't rain if you can figure that one out? :confused: