Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: garrido on July 11, 2001, 05:42:00 AM
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Hello SWulfe:
Originally posted by SWulfe:
I read that part about the so-called 109 pilots flying in the beta test.
You still have yet to tell me the names of these so-called 109 pilots. You know, so I can maybe look them up and find out who they are. I'm sure if they flew, there must be records for them.
Anyways, 109 doesn't stall huh? I'm sure it's because of those leading edge slats.. pssst: any plane with wings will stall!
Your opinion of the flight model and the beta testers, still matters nothing to me. It's all subjective. What matters to me is how each plane flies comparitively to one another. If they don't match performance in relation to one another, then it's really a moot point and I wouldn't buy that game.
Tell me this: Can your 109G2 turn inside of an LaGG-3?
-SW
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I have say you, xxx, 109 E/F turned on the inside of a LAGG3, I could to say that G2 and possibly G6 also. Russian pilots recognized their low possibilities of survival in LAGG 3, because it was a slow, heavy and less maneuverable than 109. They named it guaranteed flying varnished tumb. If you want, I´ll put it in Russian, with the original words of which for they meant abbreviations LAGG. On the other side I have not flown IL2, but I say you that a game where the 109 doens´t have Slats (109´s main characteristic) is not for my the one who better can represent to him.
Salute
SUPONGO
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Incorrect, G2 and G6 had to use their climb rate and initial corner turn to get inside of the LaGG-3. The LaGG-3 was a very good turner, like the La5. The Germans had to use spiral climbs or keep the fight in their hands to win.
This is why I made the comment, Helmut Lipfert's diary highlights these points.
-SW
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Originally posted by SWulfe:
The LaGG-3 was a very good turner, like the La5.
I wish someone solves this thing for once at all. One day we hear that the La5 and La7 are awful turners and that they suck, the next day we hear that they are very good turners. methinks that those planes turn great or awful depending on the situation the poster is :D.
Supongo, no pierdas el tiempo con este cafre. Si algo he aprendido es que es mas duro de molleja que Fraga con un yelmo adamianto ;). Y es mas bobo que el Iñigo de gran hermano. Y pa mi q se entenderia mu bien con Boris izaguirre jjejejejejejeje :)
lo dicho chacho no pierdas el tiempo con este inepto porq no vas a sacar nada en claro. Y al menos a ti aun no te ha llamado nada gordo (cosa rara en el ;))
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Hey look it's the local twit RAM back for more!
I've always said the La5 was a good turner. Certainly better than those sissy gay LuftWiener planes.
Go back to WWIIOl's easy mode FM RAM, we know you just love it there since it's so easy to fly LuftWeenie planes for once!
-SW
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Grow up SW.
LaGG-3:
Refined LaGG-1, with palliative introduced to cure the worst faults of the LaGG-1. The LaGG-3 had outer wings with slats and balanced tail elevators, was lighter, and later also had a more powerful engine. It still was disliked intensely by its pilots. Production problems continued, some factories delivering unairworthy aircraft. Series production aircraft were up to 40km/h slower than those tested by the (table presents the mass production model data).
All fighters by S.A.Lavochkin were 250-300kg heavier than Yakovlev's, due to wooden construction and generally worser 'weight culture'. But they were way more sturdy and reliable. Fuel tanks were self-sealing, equipped with inert gas (exhaust) pumping system.
http://hep2.physics.arizona.edu/~savin/ram/lagg-3.html (http://hep2.physics.arizona.edu/~savin/ram/lagg-3.html)
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He can take drive by pot shots at me, and I have to grow up Staga?
The irony in it all.
-SW
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Originally posted by SWulfe:
He can take drive by pot shots at me, and I have to grow up Staga?
The irony in it all.
-SW
Actually SW, growing up can mean that you don't always have to respond to the drive by pot shots.
To the original point of the post.....I'll judge Il-2's FM when its FINALLY released and I can fly it, and not on some idiot trolls. And after this long in development, it had better be the next best thing since indoor plumbing.
Cobra
[ 07-11-2001: Message edited by: Cobra ]
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Cobra, I'm not judging it as final... I was inquiring as to it's current state (in the other thread) and whether or not it was a final flight model.
It's been apparent to me that everything is up in the air, FM wise, through people's posts that I've heard.
I was just trying to see how accurate this FM is, because I hear this is going to "kick everything's ass"... unfortunately so far I've heard zilch on how the FM is performing. Except from Jihad, and he says he doesn't like it as much as AH.
<shrug>
-SW
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Originally posted by SWulfe:
I was just trying to see how accurate this FM is, <shrug>
-SW
Yeah,we waiting for your Results,the whole World waiting for it Master...
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Aren't you 13 years old Possi?
-SW
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Originally posted by SWulfe:
Aren't you 13 years old Possi?
-SW
A 13 years old Boys,know more than you :)
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YOu know what.. nevermind. Possi telling me IL2 is the most accurate FM pretty much explains it all.
-SW
[ 07-11-2001: Message edited by: SWulfe ]
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I am not 13 years old and i am a Flight engineer.
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You implied a 13 year old knows more than me, you don't know anything about what I know.
You can't even explain to me why IL2's 109 and 190 are so much more accurate, other than because your grandpa says so.
I've heard this song and dance before, and FS:SDOE came out.
-SW
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Originally posted by SWulfe:
YOu know what.. nevermind. Possi telling me IL2 is the most accurate FM pretty much explains it all.
-SW
[ 07-11-2001: Message edited by: SWulfe ]
Sorry my Englisch is not the Best to tell you all and i am under NDA.Believe me the FM is better than AH&WB,September you can try it in a Demo :)
This what you see in your Hollywoodmovis over the WW2 is most Time not correct.
But we lost the War and we kill Million of Jews,so we Germans must be quiet...
You see this Germanmovie "Stalingrad" from 1997?
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YOu assume, that by nature because I'm an American that I am some how biased.
This is typical from people that believe Americans are dumb and do not tolerate other races/countries.
Let me put it this way: I'm 3rd Generation American, before that my relatives came over on a boat... from Germany.
I don't care about what you think about the FM, because the next guy could think differently. I want to hear about performance tests.
The simple fact of the matter is the design of the planes is quite obvious as the war progresses German aircraft became less and less competitive because they were designed to destroy bombers.
109E/F were the pinnacle of the series for dogfighting. The G series and later were built for intercepting bombers at high altitude or escorting 190s so the 190s could intercept the bombers.
Early 190A series were *good* planes, but were not competitive turn fighters compared to the Spitfire or it's American counterparts. A8 and later models were designed to be heavily armored and armed, thus more weight for a small wing area design. This leads to poorer turning performance and thus less competitve. The 190D9 was very competitive at high altitude, where it's engine produced more power than the planes it was designed to destroy.
You can't tell me why you believe the 190 and 109 are the best modelled because of your NDA?
I find that hard to believe.
-SW
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No he probably thinks your biased, ignorant and intolerant because you act that way.
Possi
the people here who care about Il2 know how to get information about it without you insulting the modeling of the game we chose to play.
Respect you NDA and shut the F()ck up.
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Originally posted by SWulfe:
YOu assume, that by nature because I'm an American that I am some how biased.
This is typical from people that believe Americans are dumb and do not tolerate other races/countries.
Let me put it this way: I'm 3rd Generation American, before that my relatives came over on a boat... from Germany.
I don't care about what you think about the FM, because the next guy could think differently. I want to hear about performance tests.
The simple fact of the matter is the design of the planes is quite obvious as the war progresses German aircraft became less and less competitive because they were designed to destroy bombers.
109E/F were the pinnacle of the series for dogfighting. The G series and later were built for intercepting bombers at high altitude or escorting 190s so the 190s could intercept the bombers.
Early 190A series were *good* planes, but were not competitive turn fighters compared to the Spitfire or it's American counterparts. A8 and later models were designed to be heavily armored and armed, thus more weight for a small wing area design. This leads to poorer turning performance and thus less competitve. The 190D9 was very competitive at high altitude, where it's engine produced more power than the planes it was designed to destroy.
You can't tell me why you believe the 190 and 109 are the best modelled because of your NDA?
I find that hard to believe.
-SW
The Fw190A-8 is heavily than the A-4 but the different is not sooo big,the have Dogfight with that Plane too!
The 109G2/6/6AS/10 is a good Dogfighter too,when there attack Bomber´s the have Gondels with 30mm under the Wings.
Some Germans Pilots have only Kills in Dogfight with the Bf109G!
The FW190-D is a better Dogfighter than a Bf109-G10 :)but nobody know this :(
I am in the Association Germans Pilots and i talk to many Pilots from WW2 :)
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Originally posted by Pongo:
No he probably thinks your biased, ignorant and intolerant because you act that way.
Possi
the people here who care about Il2 know how to get information about it without you insulting the modeling of the game we chose to play.
Respect you NDA and shut the F()ck up.
hehe he is 13 years old :D
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Originally posted by Pongo:
No he probably thinks your biased, ignorant and intolerant because you act that way.
Biased..explain.
Ignorant, of what? Explain.
Intolerant of who? Explain.
-SW
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Originally posted by Possi:
I am in the Association Germans Pilots and i talk to many Pilots from WW2 :)
This is a common misconception. If you live, you are obviously going to have better experiences in these aircraft. Either because you are more experienced or because you got lucky that the other guy screwed up.
If you ask an American or British pilot they would tell you otherwise. Same for Japanese pilots about American planes (the ones that lived) and vice versa with Americans about Japanese planes. Americans believed the Japanese planes were amazing and very good. Japanese pilots believed the American planes were amazing and very good. It's all subjective.
I look at the plane's performance, pilot's anecdotes can be warped by their experiences or their opinions.. or just 50 years of not flying them.
Much like how I believe Confirmed Kill v.91 was a whole lot more fun than AH or how the people playing the game were a whole lot better in regards to personality. It's all perception.
I look at numbers, data and test reports (plane vs plane) before I make assumptions on what a plane can or can not do.
-SW
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Por favor, que alguien traduzca, lo pondre en ingles tambien, pero es posible que el traductor no lo haga exacto. GRACIAS.
Amigo Swulfe:
Creo que usted se confunde, el 109 fue diseñado como avion de ataque y superioridad aerea, no como interceptador de bombarderos.
El concepto de combate aereo basado en el TnB fue usado durante la Batalla de Francia y la de Inglaterra por los Britanicos y Franceses, no por los Alemanes, estos usaban lo que luego se conocera por BnZ, demostrando los propios Britanicos y Norteamericanos que ese era el futuro del avion de caza. Le pongo un ejemplo muy sencillo:
1941: Ataque japones a pearl Harbour, los P40 (y posteriormente en el resto de batallas los F4F) no pueden con la maniobrabilidad del A6M2 y siguientes modelos, pero alguien recuerda a los tigres voladores y la tecnica que usaron para vencer al Zeke o al Ki43 (BnZ) y la aplican, poco a poco los norteamericanos en sus P40 y F4F van cosechando victorias contra el A6M2, los Britanicos por su parte hacen lo mismo y dejan de tener esas perdidas desastrosas con sus Spitfires, perdidas producidas por un mal uso de sus aviones (TnB).
Eceptuando al F6F (diseñado exclusivamente para combatir al Zeke) todos los modelos Norteamericanos se basan en la norma BnZ (independientemente de la mision asignada) como el P51 (escolta de largo alcance) P47 (Escolta, posteriormente JABO) P38 (preimer vencedor real del Zeke), los Britanicos hacen lo mismo con su Spitfire (a pesar de su aumento de peso, carga alar y potencia del motor este avion era muy maniobrable con respecto a sus contemporaneos, pero mucho menos que aquellos Spit MK I/II/V que se enfrentaron al Zeke, predomina el BnZ aunque con un buen compromiso hacia el TnB) Tempest.
Ciertamente los P51, P47 o P38 tenian una buena maniobrabilidad, pero no mejor que sus contemporaneos Alemanes, era parecida.
La guerra llevo a los participantes del TnB al BnZ, y en eso, el FW190 a lo largo de sus versiones destaca como un gran avion, el hecho de que atacasen a bombarderos se debe a su bajo rendimiento por encima de los 20Km por debajo era un avion excelente, comparable a cualquier otro y en el caso del D9 superior a muchos (incluyendo Spitfire).
Con respecto al 109 tanto los Britanicos como los Norteamericanos le consideraron el mejor avion por encima de los 20K, pero no era un BnZ puro debido a su control a altas velocidades, pero su aceleracion (no representada en AH), su rapido picado, su velocidad en horizontal, velocidad en subida, su alta tolerancia por parte del piloto a las G's negativas o positivas debido a la posicion e inclinacion del asiento del piloto (no representado en AH), su grandisimo control a bajas velocidades gracias a los Slats (no representado en AH) junto a la ya indicada aceleracion), la facilidad para subir o bajar el morro rapidamente con menos perdida de E de la representada en AH le hicieron ser el mayor y mejor exponente del E-F, Martin Caidin (despues de hablar con muchos pilotos Norteamericanos y alemanes) dice: dos pilotos de identca maestria habrian comprodo que sus respectivos aparatos (P51D VS 109G) estaban perfectamente equiprados, y piense que no hablan del modelo K, presente en la guerra en mayor numero que el P51H (diseñado para el pacifico y que en un nº de 555 unidades no entro en combate).
Como ve, ni el 109 ni el 190 eran tan malos como la propaganda nos quiso hacer ver, pero lo cierto es que las aureolas miticas del Spitfire o del P51 impiden, a mi forma de ver, un aparato aleman en condiciones simuladas lo mas parecido a la realidad. Ya es bastante dificil derribar a un 109 o 190 como para que les pongan toda su capacidad real de combate.
Pienso que si en AH vuela el Me 262 alguien pedira el F-86 para contrarestarlo (el P80 no esntro en combate, solo 2 unidades fueron mandadas a italia como evaluacion).
Un saludo
Supongo
Swulfe Friend: I believe that you one is confused, the 109 were designed as airplane of attack and aerial superiority, not like interceptor of bombers. The aerial concept battle based on the TnB was used during Battle of France and the one of England by the British and French's, by the Germans, these the British and Nortamericans did not use soon what know by BnZ, demonstrating themselves own who that was the future of the fighter. I put a very simple example to him:
1941: Attack japones to pearl Harbour, P40 (and later in the rest of battles the F4F) cannot with the maneuverability of the A6M2 and following models, but somebody remembers the flying tigers and the tecnica that used to win to the Zeke or the Ki43 (BnZ) and applies it, little by little the North Americans in their P40 and F4F are harvesting victories against the A6M2, the Britanicos on the other hand do the same and let badly have those lost disastrous ones with their Spitfires, lost produced by a use of their airplanes (TnB). Exception to the F6F (designed exclusively to fight to the Zeke) all the North American models allotted mission) as P51 (escort of long reach) P47 (Escort, later JABO) P38 (to preimer winning real of the Zeke), the British does the same with their Spitfire (in spite of its increase of weight, wing loading and power of the east motor airplane was very maneuverable with respect to other Allied and german planes, but much less than those Spit MK I/II/V which they faced the Zeke, predominates the BnZ although with a good commitment towards the TnB) Tempest.
Certainly P51, P47 or P38 have good maneuverability, but not better that their other German planes, were seemed. The war I take to the participants of the TnB to the BnZ, and in that, the FW190 throughout their versions emphasizes like a great airplane, the fact that they attacked bombers must to his under yield over 20Km underneath was an excellent, comparable airplane to any other and in the case of D9 superior to many (including Spitfire). With respect to the 109 as much the British as the North Americans considered the best airplane him over the 20K, but it was not a pure BnZ due to his control at high speeds, but their acceleration (not represented in AH), his fast mincemeat, his speed in horizontal, speed in ascent, his high tolerance on the part of the pilot to the G's negative or positive due to the position and inclination of the pilot's seat (not represented in AH), his grand control at low speeds thanks to the Slats (not represented in AH) next to or indicated acceleration), the facility to raise or to lower the nose quickly they made be the greater one and better explaining of the E-F, Martin Caidin (despues to speak with many North American pilots and German) it says: two pilots of identca maestria habrian comprodo that their respective apparatuses (P51D VERSUS 109G) perfectly were compared, and thinks that they do not speak of model K, present in the war in greater I number that the P51H (designed for the pacifico and that in nº of 555 units I do not enter combat).
As it sees, neither the 109 nor the 190 were as bad as the "marketing" wanted to make see to us, but the certain thing is that the miticas aureoles of the Spitfire or P51 prevent, to my form to see, an apparatus German in simulated conditions but the similar thing to the reality. Or it is enough 190 dificult to demolish to 109 or like so that they put all his real capacity to them battle. I think that if about 262 AH flies Me somebody like F-86 to combat it (P80 I do not enter in combat, single 2 units was not sent to Italy like evaluation).
Sorry for the long post and my bad english.
A greeting
SUPONGO
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I understand what you are saying Supongo. I hope this comes through a translator understandably.
Initially German aircraft held a very strong edge over Allied aircraft. I'd say until about 1942, in regards to dogfighting. In 1943, they were still very competitive. Into late 1943, however, and onward from there the planes declined in the pure dogfighting department. More armor was added to the 190 series, with more armaments and hard points (more weight) to add even more weapons. The 109 was designed to become faster, while losing it's pure turning ability it still maintained initial turning advantages much like the 190. At optimal speeds (250+MPH), the 109, 190, P51, P47, P38, Spit, etc were pretty much on par with their strenghts and weaknesses. All of them, except the Spit, were just about equal in the turning department. Until you factor in the commonly forgotten combat flaps factor, which the P51 had. This enabled it to cut inside of a 109/190 for a few seconds and hold an advantage to shoot a 109/190 down. The drawback, was the drag that the flaps produced. This slowed down the P51 considerably which meant that pilots had to use it only to gain gun solutions.
I am not, however, saying that the American planes have distinct advantages over German aircraft.
I am arguing that the Russian aircraft, namely LaGG-3 and later Lavochkin La series aircraft, were excellent turners and would dominate over the German aircraft in the turning department. In the climb department, the 109 still held all of the cards.
This is all that I am trying to say, not that all Allied fighters would dominate over German ones no matter what. This is simply not true.
-SW
[ 07-11-2001: Message edited by: SWulfe ]
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Swulfe Friend: with respect to the series Yak 3/9 and the 5/7 I am in agreement with you, were but maneuverable to low/average level (below 12k/15k), have a German norm that it indicated " not to fight with these models below the 15K ", I have to suppose that in H2H, but with respect to the LAGG3 I am in discord, the LAGG3 was but heavy, less powerful and but slow that any 109 or 190, tomorrow if you me allow pondre aqui it the reference of a Russian Ace on the LAGG3.
A greeting
SUPONGO
Amigo Swulfe:
con respecto a las series Yak 3/9 y las La 5/7 estoy de acuerdo con usted, eran mas maniobrables a baja/media cota (por debajo de 12k/15k), habia una normativa alemana que indicaba "no combatir con estos modelos por debajo de los 15K", he de suponer que en H2H, pero con respecto al LAGG3 estoy en desacuerdo, el LAGG3 era mas pesado, menos potente y mas lento que cualquier 109 o 190, mañana si usted me lo permite pondre aqui las referencia de un As ruso sobre el LAGG3.
Un saludo
SUPONGO
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Sounds good Supongo. I was under the impression that the LaGG-3 turned inside the 109G2, from Helmut Lipfert's diary, and they were to strictly engage only above 3,000meters (I believe that's ~12,000ft?) and to not engage in a turning fight with them.
S! Supongo.
-SW
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I've read some diaries/memoirs from Finnish pilots and LaGG-3 really wasn't a threat to G-2 and even B-239's could fight against them. Heck some pilot said even La-5 wasn't a too tough to fight against; Just drag him to spiral climb.
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That's not what I was referring to though Staga, I was referring to sustained turn rate and the LaGG-3/La series ability to turn inside of the 109. Of course it all depends on who you go up against and who's flying.
Pilot's anecdotes can range from "impossible to fight" to "easy to shoot down", but it all depends on the situation and experience.
-SW
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Not a bad discussion for the most part .
SeaWulfe I have a question for you.
In one statement you say.
I look at the plane's performance, pilot's anecdotes can be warped by their experiences or their opinions.. or just 50 years of not flying them.
and on another you state Sounds good Supongo. I was under the impression that the LaGG-3 turned inside the 109G2, from Helmut Lipfert's diary,
Why would Lipfert's diary be more factual then any other pilots diary , memoirs ect?
Also can you give me the particulars on this book so I can order it.
Thanks, looking forward to learning more.(like using the UBB quote code properly Doh!)
[ 07-11-2001: Message edited by: Baddawg ]
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Oh no, I worded that wrong. Sorry about that. I was under the impression from Lipfert that it was better to not turn with LaGGs. This spawned me to research it, and judging from tests, it appears to me the LaGG-3 has a better(tighter) sustained turn radius compared to the 109G2.
This site has the book listed for 29.95$, not sure if you can find it better anywhere else. But here's the direct link to the book listing on their page: http://historicaviation.com/historicaviation/product_info.po?ID=1846&product=books&category=ww (http://historicaviation.com/historicaviation/product_info.po?ID=1846&product=books&category=ww)
Very good book!
-SW
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Originally posted by SWulfe:
Biased..explain.
Ignorant, of what? Explain.
Intolerant of who? Explain.
-SW
Oh sorry your right.
It "feels" like you are.
But I have no hard evidence to support the contention.
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Nevermind.
-SW
[ 07-11-2001: Message edited by: SWulfe ]
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Supo no te pongas con mierdas este es otro de los amerhibridos que todo lo que es USA es la gran jodienda y todo lo que no, es una mierda. Por eso se tardaron tanto tiempo en derrotar a los alemanes, pq nada de ellos funcionaba, claro. Como me prenden estos pendejazos. :mad:
[ 07-11-2001: Message edited by: Glasses ]
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S!
About LaGG3.FAF fought them with B239(Brewster) and tactic was to make them turn.Brewster could easily outmaneuver LaGG3 and make it stall to the ground.Same applied with Mig3 at low altitudes.
With 109G-2/6 the Russian fighters were manageable.Slogan was:Bring'em up and then kill.As they were optimized to low alts,109 had an edge above 3000m and even higher up the margin was wider.The Yak3 and Yak9(also La5FN and La7) fighters were considered more dangerous,since they could climb and turn very well even above 3000m.
And those who are testing IL-2 beta really can't say this or that about the FM,since it ain't ready yet(and under NDA).Comparing Beta to a finished product is utter BS IMO.We all want the best FM and every sim claims to have the "ultra realistic FM that makes U crap Your pants",but at the end it is just an "image" of what the developer thinks is realistic...Let's wait and see what IL-2 brings and not compare to AH,since they are 2 VERY different flight sims.
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Friend SWulfe:
as he says himself in Spain " the fiancé is debt ".
this is the commentary of a great Russian pilot on the Lagg3:
HUS N. Skoromojov:
" Although the Lagg3 tapeworm an armament similar to the one of the BF109, was but slow, but heavy and MUCH less manageable "
the Russian pilots spoke of the Lagg3 (in Russian):
" Lakirovani Garantirovanni Grob "
" ataud (tumb) varnished guaranteed "
a greeting
SUPONGO
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Supongo,
No traduje lo anterior porque SW dice que, más o menos, lo entiende. Si quieres traducción de esto, postea en Español.
Por cierto, pocas veces he encontrado una traducción tan divertida (y correcta en sí misma) al dicho de "lo prometido es deuda" (supongo que es esto) como la que (más o menos) te dió la máquina: "La prometida es una deuda" :D
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TRANSLATION:
Supongo,
I didn't translate your previous posts because SW says he pretty much understands. If you want translation of this one, post it in Spanish.
Btw, I have seen very few translations as funny (and true itself) as the one the machine gives to the adagio: "what is promised, is owed" -> "The fiancé is debt" :D[note:](dunno if this exists in English, it is the literal translation from Spanish original)[/note]
/TRANSLATION
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Sorry if I made some mistake.
Cheers,
Pepe
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Gracias PEPE
:D
SUPONGO
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Pepe, thank you. Supongo's translations, while harsh and out of order, mixed in with some Spanish words that the internet failed to translate, I know enough Spanish (my friend speaks Spanish fluently, so I know broken spanish and the order words are spoken in Spanish versus English) to be able to understand Supongo's post. The last one I wasn't so sure about, but I understand it now.
Thanks for the information and quotes Supongo.
S! Guys.
-SW
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Glasses, you obviously did not understand what I was typing. You think I am somehow biased towards the USA's ultimate uber Allied aircraft?
You are sadly mistaken. You think I fly the 190A5, C205, La5FN and 109F4 because I think they suck? No, I think they are excellent aircraft in the right hands.
People accuse me of ignorance, is it me that is ignorant or is that many do not try to understand/comprehend what I am getting across?
Do not add your drivel to a thread that doesn't need anymore. I explained to Supongo quite clearly that American aircraft and German aircraft were almost equal. It came down to the pilot's ability to determine the victor.
EDIT: And because we(the USA) thinks the rest of the world is excrement, we defeated the Germans... what the hell are you talking about? They were Nazis, they might as well have been demons led by Satan himself. If they were allowed to dominate the world, do you REALLY think you would be alive right now?
-SW
[ 07-12-2001: Message edited by: SWulfe ]
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Wulfe Sorry but I did think his arguments were valid even if they were in broken English. That's how many times arguments here get discredited. Sad but true.
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Who's arguments Glasses?
Supongo? If Supongo, I agree. He has very good information and a lot of knowledge. I will read what he types anytime and will try my best to either come to understand what he's typing (in terms of right or wrong) or to respect his opinion/viewpoint even if mine is vastly different.
This might of just been a miscommunication due to a language barrier Glasses.
Please reply.
-SW
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I know you're a dirty old ignorant American SWulfe.
Us Europeans are much more spohisticated and several of us has mind reading beam-eyes that can from a single post find out everything about a person from just one post :).
Heh.