Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: GtoRA2 on October 21, 2005, 12:05:17 AM
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So I have wondered about this for some time, did Spears shoot the German POWs?
What does everyone think?
I am reading the book and watching the DVDs again:cool:
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I donno if spears did it, maybe we can do a scientific recreation tommorow with some german looking shilouettes...
:lol
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No idea....
But after seein' the guy in that last scene, I aint exactly gonna ask him - know what I mean?
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you dont screw with spears. and no smoking around him imo.
in truth, i do not think he did it. i think they made quite an obvious hint that it was a story to make him seem 'the baddest arsed mean bastard around' for moral purposes. he never denies it but never admits it either.
he reminds me of clint eastwood in the good the bad and the ugly.
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Speirs is probably my favorite character in Band of Brothers... and one of the reasons is because we don't know for sure. :)
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I never thought he actually did it. I thought it was just an example of how rumors of war get started and are perpeptuated. I think Spears is the kind of guy that simply has too much class to kill people clearly out of the fight.
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If you think our side didn't shoot POW's on occasion or for 'expeidence' yer living in a fantasy world. My father and Grandfather both told me of shooting surrendered germans that had wooden bullets in their possession. They were both Navy, on the same LST. The shooting occured on the beach at Normandy. The prisioners were being searched before loading 'em on to the ship for transport back to England. They witnessed what was in essence summary executions.. GI's hit with those wooden bullets (training rounds) were maimed cruelly, died in writhing agony.
War is war.. it ain't a popularity contest on either side.
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I talked to soldiers who were in the pacific who said they shot jap prisoners.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
I talked to soldiers who were in the pacific who said they shot jap prisoners.
lazs
I heard that the Japanese shot one or two of ours as well. Apparently they could be somewhat unpleasant when it came to the treatment of prisoners.
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^^ that's something of an understatement. ;)
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SkyWolf, read "Flyboys" sometime. (Your sarcasm is just sinking in now... good read, anyway.)
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I Think when they take the artillery guns a couple days after the landing. IIRC He is the guy giving the cigarettes to some germans. In fact the guy from Oregon talked to one of the doomed men. The poor guy had lived in oregon with his parents and then they went back to serve the fatherland.
The you hear a bunch of shots and the guy is dead.
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Re: shooting prisoners.....
One time a friend of my father's got to talking on a fishing trip after they had been drinking.
Said he was given charge of about 10 prisoners, and told to escort them back to area where prisoners were being collected a few miles behind the lines.
Said the officer said something to the effect of " take these pows to the collection area and be back in 10 minutes."
Said the officer was very clear on the be back in 10 minutes part, so he marched them a couple hundered yards back of the lines and hosed them with a "burp" gun.
IIRC, this was during Korea, but could be mistaken.
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Originally posted by Dux
SkyWolf, read "Flyboys" sometime. (Your sarcasm is just sinking in now... good read, anyway.)
Our guys may have shot some prisoners on occasion, but I doubt they ever chopped them up into "kimo" and ate them!:confused:
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I believe that Speirs set it up so that they would think he did it.
I.E. He gave them ciggarettes and then hosed the ground right infront of them.
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Article from American History Magazine
Dick Winters' Reflections on His Band of Brothers, D-Day and Leadership
Another character who features prominently in the story of Easy Company is Captain Ron Speirs, who took over Easy Company outside of Bastogne when Lieutenant Norman Dike froze in the field during an assault and Winters turned to Speirs and commanded him to "take the company in!" Two of the stories that have circulated about Speirs were that he shot some German prisoners in Normandy and, later, one of his own sergeants.
Speirs was very effective. He got the job done. But if you were around and talked to the men who worked under him, he was never liked.
Now, he could turn around and walk away and talk to someone at my level and be a completely different guy. He could take orders. He was very likable.
The stories about him are true. When I first heard, I was speechless. What he did was unbelievable, inexcusable. If you talk to somebody in today's Army, they would say, well, how come he wasn't court-martialed? Well, you needed every man you had. Those guys that goofed up, didn't measure up, you couldn't just get rid of them. You needed the body, because if you lose that body, then somebody else has to shoulder twice the burden. You needed every body you could get. At Foy, he was the first officer I saw when I turned around. It could have been anybody, but it was Speirs. I didn't ask, "OK, would you mind taking over?" No, I just turned around, saw him and said take over. It was just a roll of the dice that he was standing there when I needed someone.
Through the course of his campaigns with Easy Company, Winters developed a great affection for his men and his men for him. He led them and, despite his affection, commanded them.
You maintain close relationships with your men, but not friendship. You have mutual respect for one another, but yet you have to hold yourself aloof, to a degree. If you are too friendly, it works in a negative way when you need to discipline your men. You can have your men's respect and friendship, but there is a point where you have to rise above this relationship and make sure they are following the orders that are in effect for everybody. In leading groups effectively, you have to rise above camaraderie. You have to be fair to everyone. Everyone must know that they are treated equally.
Winters acknowledges different styles of leadership and cites the ability of men to lead through fear, such as Speirs and E Company's first commander, Herbert Sobel. He asserts, however, that the most effective leader will have quiet self-confidence and self-assurance that ultimately commands the respect of the men.
In Sobel's case it was in training, and in Speirs' case it was in combat. It is impossible to imagine what would have been the result if we had been led into battle by Sobel. He had driven the men to the point of mutiny, and, more important, he had lost their respect. If he had been in command, more men would have died in battle. Speirs had the men's respect. He had my respect. We both knew he would get the job done.
If you can, find that peace within yourself, that peace and quiet and confidence that you can pass on to others, so that they know that you are honest and you are fair and will help them, no matter what, when the chips are down. I was never one for officers' parties. And in my diary I would keep asking myself why am I sitting here when the others are out at parties. I am at the Barnes home studying my manuals. I'm reading and educating myself. Getting ready. But before the evening is over, I will pick up and read a novel before I go to sleep. Now, a good guy would have been out at all those parties. The pressure of being a good fellow oftentimes brings people to what? You can be a good fellow, get along with everyone and not be a good leader. Sure, I was a good fellow during the day. I joked and palled-around with the other officers, but then in the evening I would go home and I could be myself.
I was fortunate enough to fall in with the Barnes family. They were wonderful people. For the nine months prior to the invasion, I was there and studied, developing my own personality, my own personal perspective on command. Most of the other officers never had that. It was a chance for self-analysis. If you listen and pay attention, you will find that your own self-consciousness will tell you if you are getting off track. Nobody will have to tell you that what you are doing is incorrect or ineffective. If you take advantage of opportunities for self-reflection, and honestly look at yourself, you will be able to be a better leader.
At age 86 Dick Winters lives in Hershey with his wife of 56 years, Ethel. He receives hundreds of letters a month, many of which come addressed simply to "Major Richard Winters, Hershey, Pa.," and he attempts to respond to each one, with Ethel's help.
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Thank God Easy Company didn't hold the prisoners in Cuba or subject them to frat hazing rituals and nude photgraphy with ugly women. Now that would have been a terrible atrocity! TORCHAR!!! FDR = HITLAR!!!
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Prisoners were always been killed whatever the army. Stephen Ambrose mentioned it several times in his books. Many books on war mention the practice. I remember one scene in band of brothers were a private was detailed to take back some prisoners. Winters emptied his rifle and left him one round. 'Now' he said 'If you shoot any of the prisoners the others will kill you'.
It happened in every army and every war. In the Irish civil war, Irish army soldiers took some rebel prisoners, tied them to a landmine and detonated it. In late WW2, one bad habit the Germans had nearly always got them killed. They would put up token resistance when the Allies approached sometimes killing a man or two. Then promptly attempt to surrender when a full scale assault was about to start. That didn't always work. Seeing one of your comrades die that late in the war always made people mad.
Old soldier always say they saw it happen or heard of it. But of course they were never involved. ???
Spears probably did shoot prisoners. Like many before and after him. I daresay its happens even today.
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That Winters is one heck of a fella! So, did Winters say that Spears was guilty of murdering POWs? He seemed to suggest that in the copy/paste but was not specific.
And Yes, in a battle, a place where men are actively seeking each other out, to kill each other, POW status is damned risky...
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Where do you keep all the POWs that you catch? The Pacific was a good example of this. They couldn't keep them all, so they hosed them. It happened.
Oh and i'm undecided if Spears did it, great series though. Which is better, book or mini series?
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dont get caught, safe the last bullet for yourself! ;)
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Originally posted by Yeager
That Winters is one heck of a fella! So, did Winters say that Spears was guilty of murdering POWs? He seemed to suggest that in the copy/paste but was not specific.
And Yes, in a battle, a place where men are actively seeking each other out, to kill each other, POW status is damned risky...
"The stories about him are true. When I first heard, I was speechless. What he did was unbelievable, inexcusable. If you talk to somebody in today's Army, they would say, well, how come he wasn't court-martialed?" [/b]
I guess no matter what, folks will just believe what they want to believe. It's certain Winters didn't see him shoot the POW's or his own sergeant, but there's no doubt Winters is saying the stories are true.
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When I watched Band of Brothers and Saving Private Ryan, I was really moved by the incidences where prisoners were shot. I understand the loss of control during and immediately after extreme stress.
But I wonder what I would have done should I have seen such behavior...or even had I been in command of troops behaving that way.
In Ryan, you could see the disgust and dissapointment displayed in Tom Hank's character...but the fictional character did nothing.
What would you do in that situation? I understand "needing the body", but do you just chalk it up to "war is hell" and accept it?
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War is hell, kid.
Sorry to sound condecending, but thats a simple fact. It happens. It ain't pretty. It's part of the landscape, part of the expediency of battle and survival.
It's the real deal.
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Originally posted by nirvana
Oh and i'm undecided if Spears did it, great series though. Which is better, book or mini series?
Both are great.
In the book I dont remember them mentioning Spears doing any killing of POWs
I do however seem to remember a story of Grneir while running to deliver a message shoointg a German with a 45 in mid stride trying to surrender.
But we all know Garneir had his reasons.
The story of the one bullet to escort the POWs is also in the book.
On a personal note I've hear several WWII Vets over the years also tell me about being ordered to deliver POWs to the rear and to be back in 10 min.
And what that order really ment
Seems to be a running theme and not at all an unusual story
I may be wrong but I seem to remember hearing that the orders given to the first two waves in the Normandy lands were "No prisoners"
Would make sence. What were they supposed to do with them. And they didnt exactly have the manpower to spare to guard them.
They had other places to go and things to do
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I read a book a long time back, made a big impact in that I'd never seen the 'big picture' so well distilled into the 'little picture' that a squad or platoon sees as their war.
It's fiction, but rings so true to some of my experiences that it was downright scary.
Try Nelson DeMille's 'Word of Honor'.
Maybe it'll help someone else understand how 'war crimes' happen.
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If he didn't shoot the prisoners, what were the Thompson shots? Spears carried a Thompson. Circumstancal evidence suggests he did it.
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Originally posted by rpm
If he didn't shoot the prisoners, what were the Thompson shots? Spears carried a Thompson. Circumstancal evidence suggests he did it.
If you remember correctly The never showed he killed prisoners untill later when (cant remember his name) was telling the story in the foxhole.
But remember. He Never actually saw it. He only heard the gunfire
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Hi Guys,
Apparently Speir's stepson wrote that when he expressed concern regarding the "allegations" in Ambrose's book & the series, Speir's replied "I’m 81 years old, what can they do to me now?”
All in all, given the character of the man, the uniformity of the reports, the fact that he did in fact shoot one of his own non-coms (confirmed), and the willingness of all who fought with him to believe he was capable of doing it. I'd tend to believe the report that he shot the prisoners. From what I've read by Dick Winters to date, he was neither gullible or credulous in the least. He was sure he did it.
Some other anecdotal evidence: (BTW I am not surprised in the least that there were no "witnesses" who wanted to testify during the investigation, the practice of "ratting someone out" in the military used to be absolutely taboo regardless of what you thought of them)
This one was posted on the "Wild Bill Guarnere Forum" (WildBillGuarnere.com)
Apr 7 2003
By cd5150
I asked Malarkey about what he knew regarding Speirs and all of the stories. Hopefully this subject hasn't been overly dealt with, but for all of our new folks I thought I would pass on to them an excerpt from my most recent letter from Don:
"In the HBO series he is pictured in an incident shooting down prisoners, one of whom I had talked to. I do not know if that occured. When we attacked Carentan and were on the outskirts of the city after crossing the Douve River estuary we heard a lot of fire behind us in "D" company's ranks which included Ron Speirs. When we yelled back through the ranks the response was that Speirs had gunned down 8 prisoners after giving them a cigarette. This was investigated by Division with none of the witnesses verifying it.
Several days after the capture of Carentan the Battallion moved out of the city to expand the front. About a mile and a half we ran into a Panzer task force coming in to retake the city. A defensive front was established with "E" company in the middle, "D" company on the left, and "F" company on the right. During the early stage of the encounter Speirs ordered a squad leader to attack across an open field toward farm buildings about 200 yards away. The Sgt. made some response that Speirs interpreted as disobeying a direct order. Speirs pulled his Tommy gun up and shot him. This was investigated by Division and members of the squad verified the Sgt. had refused a direct order."
- SEAGOON
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I think he did. In the movie.
IRL, I dont know.
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Our kids and their heros.
Like I said, people will believe what they want to believe.
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If I saw an officer shoot an enlisted man in the heat of battle, I would consider that officer equivalent to the enemy and shoot him myself.
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It's funny to think about it, that people may think less of the man if he did it.
I don't know, but I lean towards yes he did it. It does not change anything. From what they say he was one hell of a combat leader. That he killed some germans in cold blood does not bother me. It's war.
Feeling that he is less of a man in my opinion if he did it is hypocrasy. We fire bombed cities filled with women and children. Those bomber pilots were doing what they had to do to win. As was spears, if he did what he may have well have done.
We now try very hard to make war in a new kind and gentle way. It may very well cost us victory.
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Originally posted by Yeager
If I saw an officer shoot an enlisted man in the heat of battle, I would consider that officer equivalent to the enemy and shoot him myself.
Kinda easy to say that, in your nice comfy safe house. What you don't know and what you will probably never know is either war or what it does to the men that have to fight it.
Peace.. has a price.
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I was a soldier in battle in a previous life. I have killed and been killed with utmost savagry.....I know the face of war.... I know the smell of burnt flesh, the feeling of hell rapidly rushing towards me, these things I know.....
In my dreams I have saved and been saved, felt the heroes gratitude and the cowards disgrace. I know the feeling of rushing forward towards the enemy, under heavy and accurate fire....I know the feeling of running in absolute terror away from my enemy with weapons thrown clear for a miniscule advantage in speed.....
I am a student of war. I study it and imagine it for reasons that are simply beyond me.
And Yes, if I ever saw one of my officers kill another one of my men while under fire, in a cowards fetal position, or repulsed in horror by a suicidal order then that soldier, that officer would aquire the value of the enemy in my sights and be eliminated.
There are simply some actions that are beyond the realm......
If I understand correctly Hangtime, you are a survivor of war. I admire you if it is so and yet I would also be saddened by your experience in war, for I know in my dreams that in the way war makes the human spirit more intense, the way war makes the life experience far more profound, war equally degrades the soul and deeply wounds the center of love in our hearts.
God bless you and protect you.
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Yer damaged goods, Yeag.
...and the blessings of an abstract diety and the intangible protections proferred are of little use to myself or the millions of others the wars of my time have touched.
but thanks for your kind thoughts.
And Yes, if I ever saw one of my officers kill another one of my men while under fire, in a cowards fetal position, or repulsed in horror by a suicidal order then that soldier, that officer would aquire the value of the enemy in my sights and be eliminated.
and tell me what would you do if you walked a trail for 11 months.. took dirt piles, bled for 'em; watched bagged buddies go home the hard way, the walked off the pile to go do it again, all for some thankless unfathomable reason .... so, what would you do if some lil dipstick butter bar gave a move out order and 15 minutes up the trail caught a bullet of the wrong caliber?
You don't know till you get there. No one does.
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Its cool, hang....I was just working on my compositional writing techniques.
Im a reluctant athiest, I just like the way saying "god bless you" feels.....
When I talk about the situation spears appears to have been involved in I do realize quite cleary I am operating on self conjecture....that is to say: Who the hell knows what I would do under such circumstances! hehe
Tell old yeager some war stories....gimme the goods bro!
Where did you serve in nam? unit? actions?
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I would say the Butler did it, and not spears.. He didn't have a candlestick..
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Ok, Ill start.....
When I first hired in at my company there were lots and lots of people to learn to know......
There were three that stick with me all these years later.....all of these fellas were of shorter than normal stature and chronically quiet, mostly. Very Decent blokes overall.
When the first guy retired I learned that he was a "glider boy" and had flown in to France in the darkness of June6, O'Dark Thirty! He was gone before I could talk to him.
The 2nd fella always made jokes about his swedish ancestry and his professed love of alchol and fish. Turns out he was a marine at Inchon and had traveled north of the 38th to some resovoir...chosin. After he retired someone showed me an old photocopy of the guy when he was "on duty".
He had a M1 Garand in one hand, a pinapple grenade in the other. On the ground in front of him was a opening to an abandoned bunker with a defleshed skull laying there (obvioulsy a china man or a NK swabee!).
I could tell the man standing there was Arnie minus 30 years. Man....I wished I would have known.....
The 3rd guy was famous for his sneezes. The guy would sneeze on the other side of the building and the floor under you would shake. Turns out this guy was just a kid, walking along some dirst trail in Nam when an AK47 loaded his abdomen with lead. Last I heard he was fighting lung cancer but that was years ago......
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Originally posted by Yeager
Tell old yeager some war stories....gimme the goods bro!
Where did you serve in nam? unit? actions?
I don't have 'war stories'. I was in Service & Evac down in the delta. That wuz 9th Inf, assigined to a Maint Bn (709th). We had more than a passing aquaitence with the graves registration dudes. I recovered equipment that broke, smoked or got poked. Brought it back, scraped 'em out and delivered it to Ben Luc for refit or scrap. Our semi permanant dirt was a ****-hole called Dong Tam. Did a couple of months at Tan An Air Field with the 99th Combat Support Bn doing rig work for heli plucks. Our happy lil highly versitile group dragged and bagged everything from loaches to PBR's.
So, sorry. No real war stories. Saw way too much of the aftermath to enjoy 'war stories' per se. Best I can do for yah is "Once in a while we'd get shot at. For the most part, they missed." So sorry to dissapoint...
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Hang. if you were on the ground, then you were there. Period! Thank You!
I remember as a kid watching the flat rail cars loaded with howtizers and tanks headed for the port of tacoma from Ft Lewis.....en'route to Nam. We tried to throw rocks that far...to see if we could hear the "clank" off the armor....
So many more stories......
I remember the night my dad came home from a month long TOD after bringing back a C141 full of caskets loaded with guys not much older than my older brother at the time, and my mom and dad crying on the back porch....those kids were barely older than Ken........I have memories......I was nearly there....I guess...
I think, if I could say anything it would be that I occupied that space in between VietNam and the 1st Gulf war......where almost three entire generations of americans were able to pass through to adulthood, where youngsters werent required to sacrifice ...........I am greatful, I guess....
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Originally posted by Yeager
If I saw an officer shoot an enlisted man in the heat of battle, I would consider that officer equivalent to the enemy and shoot him myself.
you wouldn't have done well in the WWII Russian army of enthusiasts...