Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Krusty on October 21, 2005, 11:18:28 AM
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Another one for the "Perks because they were rare, not because they dominate" list.
The Focke Wulf 187 Falke. For various reasons it never went into production (*cough*Hitler's a retard*cough*), the twin engine Zerstorer going to Messerschmitt (gee, what a surprise, eh?) for his bf110. However this plane in 1937 (first prototype) was faster than the 109B by 50-whopping mph! And that's in '37, folks! The 109 was thought fast, at that time! The V3 prototype took the final shape of tandem cockpit and 4x7mms and 2x20mms. The V6 reached 392mph on 2x DB600A engines, faster than any fighter in the world on Jan 1939.
It weighed twice the 109's weight but also had twice the range. Despite this superb performance, 3 were built, and were used in combat bt the Industrie-Schutzstaffel to defend the company works at Bremen. Somebody named Dipl-Ing Mehlhorn supposedly claimed several kills in one. In 1940-41 they were "loaned" to a unit in Norway, where they were much loved, but when the RLM heard about it they were furious (I mean, if they say the bf110 is the better plane, who are the front line pilots, that actually know the difference, to tell the RLM it's wrong??) and it was quickly recalled back to the factory.
It had a span of 50 feet, length of 36, and a height of 12 feet (all approx -- don't want to type in inches/fractions. The Max speed for the A-0 production version was 326mph, initial climb was 3500 fpm, and service ceiling was just under 33000 feet.
http://www.luftwaffepics.com/LCBW/FW187-A0-1s.jpg
Click the link for an image of the factory's 3 aircraft on the flight line.
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The Fw187 would have been so much better than the Bf110. It is a good thing for us they didn't develop them.
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And the production variants (the 320mph ones) were weighed down by the RLM insisting on a 2-man plane. The early versions were MUCH lighter, not needing that person, who served no role, really (no rear guns). So had it been developed by competent people the BOB would have ended with the extinction of the RAF (okay, okay, I'm exaggerating, but you know what I mean).
Maybe? Someday? Perked for rarity?
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Do u think Hilter had an affair with Messerschmitt.
Mess.Baby that FW-187 is better than my BF110, and 109. Baby u ganna choose my plane cuz if u dont, I'LL DUMP YOU!!!
Hitler.okay okay babe, i'll choose yours.
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Klum, that's just.. WRONG...
But in the Satan/Sadam Southpark kinda way...
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Yup, the rest of the world may be damn lucky the high command in germany were (most of the time atleast) retards. The Fw 187 would have been a far greater plane then the 110. It wouldn't have changed the outcome I am quite sure but it would have caused more trouble.
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Wilbus, the people inside the RAF were scared to death that they'd lose, and they almost did. Had the Fw187 been produced early, instead of the bf110, it would have been able to escort well into the UK without the need for short range 109s. It had the firepower, the range, the speed, and the climb and ceiling to put the hurr1 and spit1 on the chopping block. The BOB would have turned out totally different, and the rest of the war would not have taken place as it did, so if it had been produced I think it would have ended the war sooner, and Germany would have been taken over by Russians as Hitler wouldn't have been able to stop them (eventually) and we'd have a totally communist Europe today :P
Um... gee.. on second thought it's a real good thing this never got into production!
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Klum,
There were politics involved between the people at RLM, Messerschmitt, Focke Wulf and other places that made the decision one based not on performance, but just on favoritism. Hitler had nothing to do with it. Nazi Germany was pretty corrupt and the nature of Fascism is to blur the lines between businesses and government.
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My god.. I mean, if people actually got credit for doing things right, instead of just because they were "friends" -- think of the implications.. why that's a meritocracy! Only a step or two away from democracy itself!! GASP!!!
Can't have that in a government that relies solely on blind obediance and fear and secret police that assassinate people in the night...
Sorry, that wasn't meant to sound crass, I was going for "ironic" or "funny". I just have a wry sense of humor.
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Krusty,
Keep in mind that even had the RAF lost the BoB the UK was in no real danger of being invaded and conquered. The Germans had no realistic way of transporting an army across the channel while RN battleships and cruisers blew the out of their barges. The Luftwaffe could not have stopped that from happening, all they could have done is make the RN pay a price for destroying the invasion.
The Brits are a melodramatic people in many ways and they like to play up their "epic" struggles to be more so than they really were. I know it looked like the Germans had a chance to do so, but when you look at the logistics with full understanding of what resources the Germans had (something the Brits in 1940 lacked) it is clear that Sealion was a hopless boondoggle. They would have needed to build the transports and ships they really needed before they had a chance and I'd guess it would be in 1942, not 1940, that they'd have been able to do so.
Speaking of epic British fights, today is the 200th anniversary of the Battle of Trafalgar. Nelson.
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and Germany would have been taken over by Russians as Hitler wouldn't have been able to stop them (eventually) and we'd have a totally communist Europe today :P
That's exactly what I mean with "we were lucky". Personally I don't make any difference between communists and nazis. They are the same POS, which history (hidden or revealed history) clearly proves my point.
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The beginning of WW2 saw the downfall of the battleship. The first fights between the brits and the krauts showed that it really wasnt the super weapon everybody thought it was, because EVERYbody was afraid to lose it, and thus afraid to commit it to battle.
Regardless, if they lost air power, they'd lose the ability to defend their cities, they'd lose the ability to protect their ships from air attacks (the war in the pacific proved that even astonishing amounts of ack won't stop every aircraft from getting to the target).
I think that if the RAF has lost the battle of britain the uproar would have made the people demand that Churchill sue for peace. At the very worst, the Germans had paratroops in action before anybody else, and could have gotten a foothold (what with their thousands of Junkers 52s) on the island.
I think that UK would have been out of the fight had they lost the air war. But then that's just an opinion, not a fact :)
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Willy was a Nazi supporter he was in a clique, that the folks at FW and Hienkle could not quite get into due to their lack luster love for Nazism.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Krusty,
Keep in mind that even had the RAF lost the BoB the UK was in no real danger of being invaded and conquered. The Germans had no realistic way of transporting an army across the channel while RN battleships and cruisers blew the out of their barges. The Luftwaffe could not have stopped that from happening, all they could have done is make the RN pay a price for destroying the invasion.
ehh they can skip water crossing part by just transport them with Ju-52s + gliders attached to them, similar in D-day and LW can do this round the clock because RAF is totaly destroyed.
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Not to mention, with the air threat gone the U-boats would sit outside every port and pick off any ship nearing it. The greatest threat to uboats was long range patrol bombers, which were vulnerable even under normal circumstances. The British fleet would be locked up in other parts of the world, for fear that it would be lost (those Brits, you know... They didn't want to lose the long history they had with a large standing navy)
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And if the Prince of Wales and Repulse are any indication, they wouldn't have been hiding long...
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i dont meen to urinate in the tea, but if it never went into production, why put it in game? also, it has poor rear visability so you couldnt see people behind you.
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It did go into production... 3 production models were made. Those 3 fought against the allies, and were even loaned to a front line combat unit that no doubt used them in combat. There are also kill claims from the pilots of these planes.
So like I said only 3 of them, but they fought. Would be interesting (some day).
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Originally posted by Treize69
And if the Prince of Wales and Repulse are any indication, they wouldn't have been hiding long...
They aren't. The Japanese were vastly better trained for attacking ships than were the Germans, not to mention better equipped for it. Further the RAF would have provided some air cover with its remaining fighters. Yes, the RN would lose ships, but the Germans would lose their entire invasion force. Any paratroopers the Germans dropped would have caused problems and then been killed or captured when their supplies ran out.
These are not my opinions, they are the opinions of those far better and more knowlegable than I.
Think of how long the US and Commonwealth had to plan for Overlord. How many vessels they designed and built for the task. The intricate planning of suppy lines they did. The Germans had none of that. They had an ad hoc fleet of transport vessels and essentially no logistical planning. Sea Lion was impossible to win in 1940 for the Germans.
Battleships had lost their primacy certainly, but they had not become weak, harmless units. They were still the second most potent warships.
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Originally posted by Krusty
It did go into production... 3 production models were made. Those 3 fought against the allies, and were even loaned to a front line combat unit that no doubt used them in combat. So like I said only 3 of them, but they fought. Would be interesting (some day).
I like this, 3 fought against the allies, yet... were even loaned out to a front line combat unit that no doubt used them in combat
ROFL....
Give times, places, pilots, and above all a confirmation sheet signed that shows this.
Otherwise this goes on the:
ya hear about the spit that shot down a UFO story.
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Uh, no.. This is not just some "tall tale" about ufos. It's not even close. It comes from a book. You know, book? That think you never read? The thing the teachers are yelling at you to look into? That thing.
All *I* know is that they were loaned to a front line bf110 unit in Norway in 1940. They performed there much better than the bf110s, and the pilots (in this front line unit, who actually fly combat and whatnot) said that they preferred it much more than the bf110. Considering that the Germans flew prototypes into battle, I doubt the loan of these planes to a front line unit would have them fly it and NOT fly it in actual missions.
REGARDLESS, the kills that were claimed on this plane were not claimed while it was in Norway. They were claimed while it was flying protection over the factory itself. That is how the book read, to me.
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Fw187, in it original form single seat form was basically the the 1939 version of the 1945 DeHavilland Hornet. It was really dumb that this plane was not produced insead of the 110.
Here is the original idea for Fw187, a clean single seater 50mph faster than contemporary 109s and with a bubble canopy.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f9/Fw187-3.jpg)
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It's not really a bubble.. it has limited rear view like the A-0 had. It just "slid" backwards, like a Fw190 cockpit did (backwards and up, in this case).
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Looks like a mossie
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It kinda does... a low-wing mossie with metal instead of wood.
I wonder if that means it's stronger? Lighter? (It takes less metal to equal wood, strength for strength, right? I don't know)
Maybe able to withstand Gs better? Better dive due to metal frame?
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It's a lot smaler and lighter than a mossie. Like I said it was a 1939 german version of this 1945 british plane:
(http://1000aircraftphotos.com/APS/2915.jpg)
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Oh, you said HORNET.. sorry. heh..