Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Big G on October 24, 2005, 12:06:26 PM
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Apologies in advance if this topic has been dealt with before:
I was watching a program on the History channel over the weekend about Japanese planes during the war, ( in between watching the 49rs go down AGAIN).
Up pops the Ki 84 and their report on it would leave me to think that there must be some mistake, Taking on Bombers at 30k, known as the FW190 of the pacific, Faster than anything else in the pacific, Only a zeke could outturn it.
It then went to describe the various armament on it, from the basic system that we have to 4 20 mm cannons, 30mm cannons etc.
It did go on to say that it was not the plane to be in in a steep dive.
Just thought it was all a bit strange really.
Cheers
Big G
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The plane we have now is the most used Ki84. The model with 30mm's in it only had 10 built / used I believe.
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With all generalised info like that you need to take it with a grain of salt. It was fast, yes, and it was probably Japans best WW2 fighter. There is still a lot of debate re its performance. Certainly it was a fast fighter at low alt, at least decent higher up, fast climb rate, and had a good armament and very good handling overall.
Its like the Mosquito, some shows say "it was the fastest prop a/c of..." well, sortof. Its too easy to over state things like that. The truth is usually somwhere in the middle of all the over-generalisations. TV shows are a big source of those kinds of claims.
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Different sources quote different figures.
I've read 388mph @ 21k & 392mph @ 20k for max speed - fast, but not fastest in Pacific.
However could outclimb & outmanoeuvre P51 & 47.
Plagued with reliability problems - poor quality materials & build, dodgy u/c & Ha-45 engine had production problems, high maintenance and increasingly poor engineering quality as war progressed and factories were bombed. Performance figures achieved by test planes were not always duplicated by producton models.
Apparently by June 1945 the lowering of manufacturing standards had reduced performance so severely that it was virtually useless above 30k ft.
It had better pilot armour than most Japanese fighters.
Regards :)
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Originally posted by Whisky58
Different sources quote different figures.
I've read 388mph @ 21k & 392mph @ 20k for max speed - fast, but not fastest in Pacific.
However could outclimb & outmanoeuvre P51 & 47.
Plagued with reliability problems - poor quality materials & build, dodgy u/c & Ha-45 engine had production problems, high maintenance and increasingly poor engineering quality as war progressed and factories were bombed. Performance figures achieved by test planes were not always duplicated by producton models.
Apparently by June 1945 the lowering of manufacturing standards had reduced performance so severely that it was virtually useless above 30k ft.
It had better pilot armour than most Japanese fighters.
Regards :)
Not to mention fuel. When tested in the US the fuel supplied was a very high grade. Sorry but the grade has slipped my mind over the years. And this led to a lot of misleadings about this plane. The C model had the 30mm, one of the most powerful of the war, limited production and usage should not be included. It was a great plane, and presented itself on the field very nicely, but like the N1K quality was its downfall. If you want to see a beast of a plane do some research on the KI-102 :P If we can't get the ME-410 that should be the next twin in AH.
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it could achieve 427 on 87 octane + water methanol. The US tests AG refers to used 100 octane and achieve roughly 427. But no-one has been able to find test data confirming this, just references to it.
Japanese fuel was terrible. It was made from pine nuts and other stuff. the 388 figure is the only figure backed up be real test data. There were quite a few Ki-84 threads right before and as it was released. Try a forum search if you are interested.
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As currently modeled in AH it is a beast of a fighter and I am quite happy with it. I didn't care for it at introduction, but it's flight model was revised and Widewing let me know about how much combat trim was neutering it. It would be nice to have more speed, but as it stands the Ki-84 is one of the premier fighters in AH.
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See, I never used CT during the first phase (when first released) and I liked that early version better. It was much more representative of the engine problems (max 200 boost, no WEP) and it made the plane less of a monster, and more balanced in gameplay (IMO).
To-may-to, toe-mah-to, though, eh?
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Oh, I knew about the CT issue before they redid the flight model, but there is no way the Ki-84 should have been slower than the N1K2-J. No other fighter in AH has engine problems modeled and it wasn't fair to the Ki-84 that it kind of did. Should P-40s quit just after take off whereas A6M2s just run and run? Wouldn't be very fun for the Americans in the early war.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Oh, I knew about the CT issue before they redid the flight model, but there is no way the Ki-84 should have been slower than the N1K2-J. No other fighter in AH has engine problems modeled and it wasn't fair to the Ki-84 that it kind of did. Should P-40s quit just after take off whereas A6M2s just run and run? Wouldn't be very fun for the Americans in the early war.
Yup I agree. Modelling realism should have it's limits & I don't want a warts and all approach. I suspect a lot of folk would get peed off pretty quick if AH introduced random guns jamming, u/c collapsing, tailplanes falling off Tiffies etc etc.
Regards :)
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What an awesome plane this must've been :)
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even so, I thought the pre-WEP version was much more balanced.. like a super zeke or a spitV -- with its limits but still superb. Now it seems like it has very little limits :)
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Except the Spit V was noticably better than the Ki-84 as originally modeled. It was almost as fast, climbed better, rolled better, turned better and had Hispanos.
Worse, the Ki-84 brought nothing resembling balance to late war pacific theater enviornments as it was noticably and dramatically inferior to the N1K2-J.
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The Ki-84 as currently modelled is probably the single best dogfighter in the game. It's only real shortcoming is the annoying control lockup at high speeds.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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I dont think engine unreliability should be modelled, unless its modelled for all, but on the other hand, the ac are supposed to mirror their performance in the war. Do we go with some NACA data, on say, a Yak-9U running on 150 octane? because the RAF used it later in the war? or do we go with its WW2 VVS performance.
I think the Ki-84 should be as good as it was, not what somebody managed to make it do in 1946 at Edwards AFB.
Same with all the other ac, Allied and Axis.
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Originally posted by Squire
I think the Ki-84 should be as good as it was, not what somebody managed to make it do in 1946 at Edwards AFB.
That is why it does 388mph at best altitude and not 427mph as in IL-2.
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
The Ki-84 as currently modelled is probably the single best dogfighter in the game. It's only real shortcoming is the annoying control lockup at high speeds.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Agreed.
- oldman
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The United States Air Force Museum has a research area. In 1991 and again in 1992 I visited this area, an appointment is necessary. They had data on a test of a KI-84 vs a P-51D Mustang done postwar. These included all the relevent comparison graphs and other associated test pilot notes/figures/data.
I do not think I have a copy of this anymore. As I cleaned up during a move of address, and was no longer playing flight sims. :rolleyes:
I will check when I get home.
If you have never been to the museum go. If you are interested in data and photographs of WWII aircraft, goto the research area. Its a fascinating place with tons of file cabinets and that is just the tip of the iceberg of their collection which they will research into for a fee.
(All data in the above post was current as of 1992, access to and quality of the aforementioned research area may have changed, the poster is not responsible for any changes or errors in the processes mentioned above)
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Yup, I was just commenting on all the other posts I have seen on it re the post war tests.
Its was very good fighter, even with Japanese gas.
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344mph at deck, and outturns Spits.
Beastly plane, no doubt.
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I have not read every post, so if somone has already posted this, then ignore.
We have Frank 1a 2 20mm 2 50cal
Frank 1b had 4 20mm
Frank 1c had 2 20mm & 2 30mm ( I think )
Thanks Bruv119 !
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This plane is a beast!!!! Not sure what I was doing wrong in it, but gave it a try again last night. Utterly amazing what you can do in it. Granted the dive speed sucks and controls lock up at a high speed but low and slow this thing is smooth. started out 11-3 in it until last night and went 41-8 in it last night. Most if not all in a huge furball. Took a beating and returned me to base multiple times. I found my new ride for the MA :P
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Yeah, I flown the KI84 for A long time, It's great when you find all the tricks that it can do. But it has A lot of down points too, its just up to the pilot to work around them.
P.S I also got A little help from Big Wil, still the best pilot that I know of that flys the KI841a.
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
The Ki-84 as currently modelled is probably the single best dogfighter in the game. It's only real shortcoming is the annoying control lockup at high speeds.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Bingo. Except I would revise that to say the key weakness of elevator control lock up begins even at medium speeds, like in a Split S. S
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< Love that plane !
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Did they redo the flight model of the Frank since it's introduction? Maybe I need to try it again...of course anything you have to get slow in to fight in the MA is a dead duck. The cherry pickin' horde monkeys will HO you into submission. :cry
Magoo