Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Hap on October 25, 2005, 11:25:34 AM
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I'm not familiar with the variants. My question is what might be their flying characteristics compared to the planes we know.
hap
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G-14: much faster, 30mm (maybe 20mm option?) + gondolas
Spit16: Much slower, turns on a freakin' dime, climbs like a monster at all alts, has instant kill 1-ping nook-like hispanos and 2x50cal.
G-14: better at alt. Will dominate if 10k + (or thereabouts)
Spit16: better all other areas except speed below 10k-ish (or so).
Rough generalization, but you get the picture.
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Spitfire LF.Mk XVIe (a Spitfire LF.Mk IX with an American built Merlin instead of a British built Merlin):
Sea level speed: 336mph (Spitfire F.Mk IX does 321mph)
~20,000ft speed: 405mph (Spitfire F.Mk IX does 408mph at 26,000ft)
Initial climb: ~4,400fpm (Spitfire F.Mk IX does about 3,900fpm)
Better roll rate and turns slightly worse than non-clipped Spitfires.
Bf109G-14 (a Bf109G-6 with MW-50):
Sea level speed: ~350mph (semi-educated guess)
~22,000ft speed: ~415mph
Higher initial climb than the Bf109G-6, but I don't know how much.
Handling should be very similar to the Bf109G-6, but with better visibility out of the cockpit.
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Originally posted by Krusty
G-14: much faster, 30mm (maybe 20mm option?) + gondolas
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you mean in the game? because the "default" gun in the G14 should be the MG151/20, don't tell me that they made the same mistake as Oleg :huh
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Originally posted by Meyer
you mean in the game? because the "default" gun in the G14 should be the MG151/20, don't tell me that they made the same mistake as Oleg :huh
It'll default to 20mm the first time you select the Bf109G-14 in the hangar I bet, thereafter it'll default to whatever armament you selected for it the last time you flew it.
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Wait wait. I thought the G10 we had right now is actually a G14. They just named it wrong.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Wait wait. I thought the G10 we had right now is actually a G14. They just named it wrong.
No, the G-10 we have right now is a K-4, but with a 20mm nose gun option.
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The G-14 will perform just like the G-6 except for wep, that's it. The G-14 should come with 2cm as were the by far majority of G-14s.
G-14: better at alt. Will dominate if 10k + (or thereabouts)
Spit16: better all other areas except speed below 10k-ish (or so).
You don't have a clue as to what you are talking about. WEP on the G-14 will be MW-50 (water-methanol). It cools the charge allowing for higher boost below FTH. If anything the G-14 will match up much better at lower altitudes(-10k). The "LF" doesn't mean low altitude per say. It would be best described as optimized for medium altitude (12 - 20k or there abouts).
FYI, the G-14 / LF.XVI is an incorrect comparison. The G-14 and Spitfire LF.IX / XVI aren't necessarily contemporaries. Spitfires were fighting 190s for the most part. The 190 is what helped push Spitfire development. Spitfire Vc with 16lbs boost (later LF.V etc..), Spitfire F.IX (was discovered that at typical combat altitudes it was at a disadvantage). The Spitfire LF.IX addressed that, they even clipped to wings to help it roll better against 190s.
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What Karnak said about the 20mm. Same kind of options as the current G6 and current G10.
The K4 won't have a 20mm hub cannon option though.
Spitfires were fighting 190s for the most part.
I'm quite sure spits fought pretty much any enemy they could find, not just 190's.
If you mean clipped wing spits only, I'd still say they fought pretty much everything although the clipped wing was there to improve the roll rate.
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The only 2 Geshwaders in France, Belgium were JG2 and JG26, both were 190 Geschwaders. (well 1 gruppe of each remained in 109s).
Thus my statement:
Spitfires were fighting 190s for the most part.
Is accurate.
The increase boost on the Spit V to 16 lbs was directly related to the 190. So was the introduction of the Spit IX, so was the LF and CW versions.
In BoB the main RAF fighter was the Hurricane. Same with Kanalkampf. For Rodeos and Circus' the 190 was being deployed.
In NA early on the main RAF fighters were P-40 variants. As more Spit 5s were sent to NA the LW sent 190s. See JG2 in NA
No one said the Spitfires never fought 109s but their main opponent was the 190.
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Bruno is correct in that the Fw190 was the fighter that was pushing the Spitfire's development, not the Bf109. The introduction of the Fw190 is what made a huge impact on RAF Fighter Command. The Bf109 was a known quantity and something the RAF fighter pilots felt confident in engaging in combat. The Fw190 was a whole new ballgame.
Still, it is fair to compare any fighter to any fighter if you feel like it.
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Originally posted by Krusty
G-14: much faster, 30mm (maybe 20mm option?) + gondolas
Spit16: Much slower, turns on a freakin' dime, climbs like a monster at all alts, has instant kill 1-ping nook-like hispanos and 2x50cal.
Excuse me ?
To much LW reading damaged your brain ?
If the hispano is a kill 1-ping nook-like what is the 30mm ?
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Originally posted by straffo
Excuse me ?
To much LW reading damaged your brain ?
If the hispano is a kill 1-ping nook-like what is the 30mm ?
I about died last night in a 262 snuck up (ok doing 600+) on a spit and unloaded 15 rounds at him, saw 2-3 hit sprites and was like woohoo!!! Then god awful noises and my plane is on fire (spit didn't die). I atrribute this to lag, but I get easier kills using the hizookas then the mg151's or mk's.
And Straffo it is hard to compare a cannon that shoots like a "freakin lazer beam" and one that gets lobbed out like some hot potato.
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Disagree AHgod he didn't even mention trajectory, he spoke about "1-ping nook"
Not that I'm unaware of the special trajectory of the german 30 mm :D
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Still, it is fair to compare any fighter to any fighter if you feel like it.
What I meant by 'incorrect comparison' was in the more stricter historical sense. With this in mind the question would be best phrased 'How's the LF.XVI match-up against the A-5 or even A-8?'
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Originally posted by straffo
Disagree AHgod he didn't even mention trajectory, he spoke about "1-ping nook"
Not that I'm unaware of the special trajectory of the german 30 mm :D
Yup, you're right on that one my bad lol. But I swear the hizookas are freakin lazer beams. I have noticed the 30mm taking 2 hits to kill a fighter though. Hizookas, if I ever got a 1 hit wonder ping it was a freak of nature and would be impossible to re-create, well at least until the next time I upped a sissyfire :P
But seriouslyl, I haven't seen one of those 1 hit wonders in a long time.
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Originally posted by Hap
I'm not familiar with the variants. My question is what might be their flying characteristics compared to the planes we know.
Here's a graph I made up for another thread, that should answer the question of comparative speeds of the new Spitfire XVI and Bf 109G-14.
(The LIGHT GREEN line would be representative of a Spitfire LF.XVI, and the RED for the G-14)
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b311/qwejibo/spit_g14as_k4-level.gif)
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Originally posted by Bruno
The only 2 Geshwaders in France, Belgium were JG2 and JG26, both were 190 Geschwaders. (well 1 gruppe of each remained in 109s).
Thus my statement:
Is accurate.
The increase boost on the Spit V to 16 lbs was directly related to the 190. So was the introduction of the Spit IX, so was the LF and CW versions.
In BoB the main RAF fighter was the Hurricane. Same with Kanalkampf. For Rodeos and Circus' the 190 was being deployed.
In NA early on the main RAF fighters were P-40 variants. As more Spit 5s were sent to NA the LW sent 190s. See JG2 in NA
No one said the Spitfires never fought 109s but their main opponent was the 190.
That whole statement depends entirely on WHEN.
Yes the Brittish "rushed" the higher boost V and the new IX to counter 190's and they clipped the wings for improved roll rate.
Pretty much all versions after those were just normal development versions like any other plane from any other country.
190's didn't exist during BoB, not sure why you included that in the same sentence.
Your statement is true between 1941-43 untill the Germans finally moved more squadrons back to the west.
Not trying to piss you off but I just don't agree with your statement that the spits fought the 190's most of the time.
It doesn't specify when.
It is right to say though that the development of the Spits, atleast during 1941/42 was directly aimed at countering the 190.
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Yes the Brittish "rushed" the higher boost V and the new IX to counter 190's and they clipped the wings for improved roll rate.
They did more then that. The built LF.Vc (even clipped wings), LF.IXs and many other in response to the 190.
190's didn't exist during BoB, not sure why you included that in the same sentence.
Because 109s did... During BoB / Blitz and Kanalkampf the most numerous RAF fighter was the Hurricane. After that the most numerous LW fighter in range of Spitfires were 190s and remained so until after D-Day. This goes to my point that the Spitfires main adversary was the 190.
Your statement is true between 1941-43 untill the Germans finally moved more squadrons back to the west.
Not trying to piss you off but I just don't agree with your statement that the spits fought the 190's most of the time.
My statement is true whatever the date. The only 2 Geschwaders in NWE were JG 26 and JG2 until mid 44 (after D-day). They flew 190s (1 gruppe of each stayed in 109s), Spitfires fire didn't have range to reach Germany. There was only 1 Geschwader flying defense of the reich until mid '43. Other squadrons we moved to RVT help battle the Ami bombers not Spitfires.
Spits fought 190s most of the time.
It is right to say though that the development of the Spits, atleast during 1941/42 was directly aimed at countering the 190.
It is right to say that for any date. LF.IXs didn't enter squadron service until '43.
The largest RAF / Spitfire air battle was over Dieppi. 190s of JG26 and JG2 kicked Spitfire arse:
Focke-Wulf 190s Over Dieppe (http://fw190.hobbyvista.com/dieppe.htm)
You won't piss me off by disagreeing, especially because I am right. I hold no animosity for those who are 'wrong'...:p
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If you look into confirmed kills of the RAF on a long period after the introduction of the 190 it's mostly 190's. So Bruno has a good point here.
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The Hurricane may have been the most numerous for a time after the BoB, but the Spitfire had replaced it as the main RAF fighter relatively quickly following the BoB. You have to look at use in addition to numbers to see what is considered the main, frontline units. Even in the BoB the Spitfire was very significant, just considerably less so than the Hurricane. It is not right to dismiss it as a footnote to the BoB like the Defiant or Whirlwind.
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It is not right to dismiss it as a footnote to the BoB like the Defiant or Whirlwind.
Please quote where anyone said that...
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You didn't and I didn't mean the phrase in that way. I thought about clarifying, but the phone rang and I am at work. I was adding that for people who might be less familiar with the subject matter as there are some who read the boards.
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Rgr you're probarly right.
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Originally posted by Karnak
You didn't and I didn't mean the phrase in that way. I thought about clarifying, but the phone rang and I am at work. I was adding that for people who might be less familiar with the subject matter as there are some who read the boards.
NP..
I had hoped I wasn't giving the impression that the Spitfire was equa, in terms of contributing to the RAF victory in BoB, to the 'Defiant or Whirlwind'. I just wasn't sure after reading your reply...
FYI..
Did you see the picture I posted of a clipped-wing Seafire on the XVI thread in the Gen Discussion section?
Rgr you're probarly right.
Wil,
The only reason I am sure of what I posted is because I have researched this stuff for things in AH like events, CT, scenarios and currently for ToD.
I also do quite a bit for campaigns and coops for Il2/FB/AEP/PF.
fyi to all...
One thing about the G-14 (non AS) was that it saw more use in the east where as the G-6/AS and G-14/AS were needed more in the west. If you look at Justin's chart the G-14/AS, due to its supercharger, isn't quite as fast as the G-14 at lower altitude. However, it has a higher FTH where it faired better against the higher altitude Ami-fighters.
Since within the AH main every plane is a possible match-up, as Karnak said its fair compare any aircraft to each other (202 vs 262 if you want). Keeping history in mind I just wanted to point out that the Spit vs 190 and G-14 / Yak / La / P-39 etc... would be appropriate.
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A note on Justin's chart.
The Spit IX LF JL 165 is AFAIK the slowest one with those boost settings on the lists of spitfireperformance.com
Have a look ;)
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The Spits main adversary was the Fw190 in NW Europe, up untill D-Day, after that it met many 109s and other combat types, as the 2TAF went to France, and the LW reinforced the West Front.
In the MED, mainly Bf109s and other combat types, Malta 1942 being the most famous campaign.
As for the BoB, the Spit was the "junior partner", perhaps thats a better way of describing it? It was important, because it made up 40 percent of the RAF force, if for nothing else. I think it made a larger contribution to the RAF than the Bf 110 did for the LW anyways (in 1940), but yes, the Hurricane was the most important RAF fighter into early 1941. After October 1940, the RAF could re equip Sqns, not just replace combat losses. Thats when the real conversion started in earnest, and the Hurricane IIs were relegated to more fighter-bomber duties.
If your talking 44-45, the Spit is the standard, with the Mustang and Tempest being the junior partners, and the Typhoon filling a seperate fighter-bomber role , but with some help from other types and Mosquito filling in niche roles such as Night Intruder, and other assorted roles.
Im going to add something here, because I think its relevent if your talking about "main types" ect, and has a bearing on many posts I have seen over the years regarding the RAF in late 1943-45.
The RCAFs 126 Wing, was formed in July 1943 with 3 Sqns of Spits. Thats the same time as many USAAF FGs were forming in Britain. If you look at its combat record, of the 15 8th AF FGs that fought in ETO 43-45 (3 Sqns each), 126 Wing is ranked as #6, if it was a USAAF unit. Scoring higher than 10 of the 15, with 361 kills (it lost 131 Spits and 98 pilots to all causes). It destroyed many other targets such as locomotives, transport, troop positions ect...
So thats an interesting bit of info when you see posts trying to diminsh the RAF/RCAFs role when comparing it to the 8th AF and the P-51 which has had more TV shows, books and movies about it.
Im not in any way diminishing what the 8th AF did, at all, but it annoys me when some are somewhat dismissive about 2TAF when they know almost knothing about it. Not in this thread, just a general comment.
Not a troll, but its just something that us modest Canadians have to say once in awhile. :D
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Originally posted by Squire
The RCAFs 126 Wing, was formed in July 1943 with 3 Sqns of Spits. Thats the same time as many USAAF FGs were forming in Britain. If you look at its combat record, of the 15 8th AF FGs that fought in ETO 43-45 (3 Sqns each), 126 Wing is ranked as #6, if it was a USAAF unit. Scoring higher than 10 of the 15, with 361 kills (it lost 131 Spits and 98 pilots to all causes). It destroyed many other targets such as locomotives, transport, troop positions ect...
Yes, you see that a lot. I have seen numerous claims on this board that the P-47 is what destroyed the Luftwaffe and then the P-51 came to get the glory.
It is much more complicated than that. The P-47 was very important to breaking the Luftwaffe, but it did not do it alone and it was not the only important fighter involved in breaking the Luftwaffe. Further it is an endless debate as to how broken the Luftwaffe ever was.
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Well, because we now have the IXe/XVIe and it was the RAF/RCAFs main ride, I felt it was a timely reminder to counter all the "the Spit didnt do much after BoB" stuff you see from those with 1000 books on the B-17.