Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Suave on October 26, 2005, 07:08:15 AM
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Damn Isreal! Why can't they at least try to meet these guys half way?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051026/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iran_israel
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I guess this is how, if you were President of Iran, you would ask Israel to take out your secret nuclear weapons research sites and production facilities.
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Haveing recently done work for both an Isreali Jew. And a Palastinian who immigrated to this country years ago I have come to several conclusions.
1- Its a bad idea (although quite amusing for a while)to get into a conversation with either side on the issue.
2- Both sides equally HATE each other
3- There will never be Peace in the middle east as both sides only want to deal with absolutes.
Each side thinks their side is absolutely right and the other is absolutely wrong. There is no room in either mindset for compromise. Therfore there will never be peace
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Why is ANYONE surprised by this? Maybe I should rephrase the question.
Why would ANYONE with common sense and a knowledge of history be surprised by the statements of the Iranians and their hardline cohorts?
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what a great world it would be if our jews were like those jews.
sadly.... we got the money changers instead.
lazs
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Originally posted by Suave
Damn Isreal! Why can't they at least try to meet these guys half way?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051026/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iran_israel
This inuendo coming from Iran could signal that they have or are near having the Big "N" and intend to use it... He may soon regret running his big iranian mouth...
TJ
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Originally posted by lazs2
what a great world it would be if our jews were like those jews.
sadly.... we got the money changers instead.
lazs
o, snap!
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Hang.. I was serious. I really admire those guys... there are jews here that I admire too... JFTPF are such a group.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
what a great world it would be if our jews were like those jews.
sadly.... we got the money changers instead.
lazs
lazs........Generalizations are for the ignorant.
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This is why establishing a large U.S. base in the middle east known as "Iraq" by this administration was a brilliant strategy. Think of Iraq as a neighborhood watch program.
You can bet that we'll have US bases there for a long time to come. If we don't, all Americans will be living a 3rd world life, as we depend on the free flow of oil from the Mid East as much as any given nation.
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Originally posted by T0J0
This inuendo coming from Iran could signal that they have or are near having the Big "N" and intend to use it... He may soon regret running his big iranian mouth...
TJ
Good..let em fight it out..world would be better off with both sides gone I think. Not that I don't like Jews, but I think the world in general has grown really tired of the silliness of both sides. So let Iran get nukes and make the first move..the middle east will self destruct and we can come in after and get the OIL:D
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Bombing at Israeli Market Kills Four (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051026/ts_nm/mideast_dc)
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Originally posted by ASTAC
Good..let em fight it out..world would be better off with both sides gone I think. Not that I don't like Jews, but I think the world in general has grown really tired of the silliness of both sides. So let Iran get nukes and make the first move..the middle east will self destruct and we can come in after and get the OIL:D
Israel is not to blame for most of the "silliness" IMNSHO. For the most part they'd be fine if left alone.
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what a great world it would be if our jews were like those jews.
sadly.... we got the money changers instead.
lazs
I was thinking the exact same thing.
Iran saying this is kind of like playing Rochambeau. Except the Israelis get to sit in a tank while the Iranians try to take a swing at them.
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I blame Boosh.
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Originally posted by SkyWolf
Israel is not to blame for most of the "silliness" IMNSHO. For the most part they'd be fine if left alone.
In an area contested so much over history, you can't just take it away from one people and expect them to be quiet about it.
Remember Israel hadn't existed for a long time prior to 1948, and wasn't in Jewish hands...The UN sorta just said here take this land...sorta a bad deal for those already living there.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not siding with the Palestinians/arabs...just looking from another point of view. Obviously at one point in history the arabs forced most of the Jews out.
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Hello Astac,
Originally posted by ASTAC
Good..let em fight it out..world would be better off with both sides gone I think. Not that I don't like Jews, but I think the world in general has grown really tired of the silliness of both sides. So let Iran get nukes and make the first move..the middle east will self destruct and we can come in after and get the OIL:D
Silliness of both sides? Here's the situation - First the overview, in Islamic law and theology, which are essentially coexstensive, once a nation becomes Islamic, it becomes part of the Dar-El-Islam and may never again return to it's prior status as part of the Dar-El-Harb. Additionally neither this state, nor its Muslim inhabitants may legally be ruled by Non-Muslims. It is a religious duty therefore of all Muslims living in such a state to overthrow the infidel (Kufr) government and replace it with a Muslim government which rules according to Sharia, or as Muhammad succinctly put it: "Allah will not allow the Disbelievers to have a way (an authority) over the Believers " [TMQ 4:141]
Or as the English language version of a helpful Sunni book published by hizb-ut-tahrir puts it:
Re-establishing the Islamic State, therefore, is a duty upon all the Muslims because this has been confirmed by the Sunnah and the general consensus of the Sahabah. Because the Muslims have submitted to the influence of Kufr over their land and the rules of Kufr are implemented on them, their homeland, which in the past had been an Islamic homeland, has become a Kufr homeland; in other words their citizenship has become non-Islamic even though their land is Islamic. It is obligatory upon them to live in an Islamic homeland and to have an Islamic citizenship, yet they cannot achieve this unless they establish an Islamic State. Thus the Muslims would remain sinful until they began to work towards re-establishing the Islamic State so that they could give their bay’ah to a Khaleefah who would implement Islam and carry its Message to the world.
Therefore, because Palestine became Muslim when the Seljuk Turks defeated the Byzantines in 1071 (Palestine was nominally Christian before it was Muslim) it is now forever part of the Dar-El-Islam and can never legally be ruled by Kufr such as Jews. Therefore, there are ultimately no "half-measures" possible here. The only long term solution that will satisfy the Palestinians and the Islamic world in general is the elimination of the Kufr state, Israel and the re-establishment of an Islamic state in the region. The existence of Israel is simply unnacceptable.
That's crazy you say? Well friends, that really is the Arabic worldview. They happen to think your worldview based on politics and materialism is equally crazy.
- SEAGOON
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Remember Israel hadn't existed for a long time prior to 1948, and wasn't in Jewish hands...The UN sorta just said here take this land...sorta a bad deal for those already living there.
It wasn't palestinian lands, if that's what you're getting at.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
It wasn't palestinian lands, if that's what you're getting at.
No..but it wasn't jewish either.
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"""Allah will not allow the Disbelievers to have a way (an authority) over the Believers " [TMQ 4:141]""
then why do muslims live in the US to be under control of the evil infidles?
a muslim friend of mine said to me once, and i quote"oh john, i'm not that kind of muslim, i eat pork and drink beer just like you".
i guess there are muslims and then there are "muslims" just like there are christians and there are "christians"
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There are wierd passages in the Bible also. But those with common sense just discredit them to begin with.
However, a lot of people in the middle east don't know any better. They are raised from the beginning to believe word for word. It's not their fault though.
Astac, it really was Jewish Land. It always had been. Jews had lived there long before Islam even existed.
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(http://www.protestwarrior.com/nimages/signs/large/pw_sign_22.gif)
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Astac, it really was Jewish Land. It always had been. Jews had lived there long before Islam even existed.
Jews had ceased to be a majority many centuries earlier.
The problem is, though, that many Arabs live there as well. For most of those Arabs, they live there under Israeli military occupation, subject to Israeli military law, and subject to discrimination policies far more severe than apartheid.
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Bull****.
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Hi John,
Originally posted by john9001
"""Allah will not allow the Disbelievers to have a way (an authority) over the Believers " [TMQ 4:141]""
then why do muslims live in the US to be under control of the evil infidles?
a muslim friend of mine said to me once, and i quote"oh john, i'm not that kind of muslim, i eat pork and drink beer just like you".
i guess there are muslims and then there are "muslims" just like there are christians and there are "christians"
John it is certainly true that there are people like your friend, Muslims who come to the USA and assimilate into American society and gradually lose their religious identity. However, your friend is certainly not the norm worldwide.
Even here in the USA, if you inquired at the majority of Masjids (Mosques), "Is a man who claims to be a Muslim but eats pork and drinks beer (and probably fails to pray 3 times a day), really a Muslim?" The answer you would get is an emphatic "NO! Such a man is an apostate." because no legitimate interpretation of the Quran and Hadiths can allow for this behavior, and in Islam, a man's faithfulness is defined by the extent of his "surrender" to the teachings of the Prophet. How fully are you observing the Pillars of Islam? Certainly such behavior, if pursued openly, would be considered scandalous in nations like Iran.
But to a certain extent, the above is a digression. While there are some Muslims who are absorbed into the surrounding Kufr culture, the actual progress of Islam throughout the world, especially in Africa and Europe is exactly the reverse, the culture that Muslims enter into is what is to be assimilated. One sees this in the Islamcization of Northern Nigeria, and the ongoing attempts to implement Shariah law in Muslim communities in places like Holland, France, and even Canada. The general rule is to implement Shariah in the Muslim community, stating it will only be for Muslims, and then as the Muslim population increases, insisting that everyone observe it (Women must wear Hajibs, no blasphemous speech) etc. until you create a situation were a Dutch filmaker can be killed by an ordinary Morrocan immigrant for making a film about the suppression of women in Islamic society or lawmakers have to live under 24hr protection merely for making comments critical of the ongoing Islamicization process. On the other hand, in areas where Islam has been in control, the fight is to reestablish Shariah, and it is even more urgent, hence the willingness of young Muslims to martyr themselves in the hopes of removing the Kufr presence.
Israel is, as Gunslingers map ironically points out, an eyesore to all faithful Muslims, a place were the Kufr rule right in the midst of the Dar-El-Islam. It is if anything worse than the presence of Infidel soldiers on the sacred Arabian peninsula.
Until we start actually beginning to accept their worldview and way of thinking, rather than pretending or wishing they think the way we do, we will never be able to acurrately assess or respond to Islam. The fact that their largest international organizations are all explicitly religious and assert the fundamentals of Islam as part of their charters should have been at least a clue. For instance, the following is from the CHARTER of the largest of them, the Organization of Islamic States or OIC which has 55 member states and works directly with the UN:
to coordinate efforts for the safeguarding of the Holy Places and support of the struggle of the people of Palestine, to help them regain their rights and liberate their land;
There simply is no direct Western parallel, and that is one of the reasons we don't understand them...
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by Suave
"Isreal must be wiped off the map"
Damn Isreal! Why can't they at least try to meet these guys half way?
Exactly where is the middle ground here in the iranian position for Isreal to meet? Where is the half way point in "wiping this blot from the arab world"??
I am confused here.:huh
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Gunslinger, whilst your map tells one part of the story, it doesn't tell another part:
(http://www.arena.org.nz/palteror.GIF)
That could also be subtitled End the occupation of Muslim lands.
It's the daily story for millions of Palestinians, having to negotiate an Israeli roadblock. Because whilst only a tiny proportion of "muslim lands" are occupied by Israel, millions of Palestinians live their lives under a harsh Israeli military occupation.
Don't they matter? Do they deserve to live in misery so the settlers can live in subsidised luxury? Does the kid in the photo deserve to be frightened by the soldier, as he clearly is?
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Originally posted by Nashwan
Jews had ceased to be a majority many centuries earlier.
I'm unsure of the relevance of this statement. Any minority should be discounted?
The problem is, though, that many Arabs live there as well. For most of those Arabs, they live there under Israeli military occupation, subject to Israeli military law, and subject to discrimination policies far more severe than apartheid.
So they live in Israel and have to obey Israeli law? Imagine that. Maybe they should go to an Arab Country and work there...although I'm told the job market for suicide bombers in other Arab Countries isn't exploding like it is in Israel.
Maybe Israel should just boot them all out, lock the door, put up a few more barriers, and then every few years kick the crap out of any Arab State that attacks or threatens to attack them....starting with Iran. My money's on the Israelis.
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Originally posted by Nashwan
Gunslinger, whilst your map tells one part of the story, it doesn't tell another part:
(http://www.arena.org.nz/palteror.GIF)
That could also be subtitled End the occupation of Muslim lands.
It's the daily story for millions of Palestinians, having to negotiate an Israeli roadblock. Because whilst only a tiny proportion of "muslim lands" are occupied by Israel, millions of Palestinians live their lives under a harsh Israeli military occupation.
Don't they matter? Do they deserve to live in misery so the settlers can live in subsidised luxury? Does the kid in the photo deserve to be frightened by the soldier, as he clearly is?
Maybe if his Poppa and his friends stop wearing Semtex vests, he wouldnt have to be scared so much? Then there would also be less roadblocks.
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Bull****
The Jews were expelled by the Romans, for a rebellion against Roman military rule. From the Israeli government's ministry of foreign affairs:
"By the end of the 4th century, following Emperor Constantine's adoption of Christianity (313) and the founding of the Byzantine Empire, the Land of Israel had become a predominantly Christian country. Churches were built on Christian holy sites in Jerusalem, Bethlehem and Galilee, and monasteries were established in many parts of the country.
Jews were deprived of their former relative autonomy, as well as of their right to hold public positions, and were forbidden to enter Jerusalem except on one day of the year (Tisha b'Av - ninth of Av) to mourn the destruction of the Temple.
The Persian invasion of 614 was aided by the Jews, who were inspired by messianic hopes of deliverance. In gratitude for their help, they were granted the administration of Jerusalem, an interlude which lasted about three years. Subsequently, the Byzantine army regained the city (629) and again expelled its Jewish inhabitants."
"The Arab conquest of the Land came four years after the death of the prophet Muhammad (632) and lasted more than four centuries, with caliphs ruling first from Damascus, then from Baghdad and Egypt.
At the outset, Jewish settlement in Jerusalem resumed, and the Jewish community was granted the customary status of protected non-Muslims, which safeguarded their lives, property and freedom of worship in return for payment of special poll and land taxes.
However, subsequent restrictions against non-Muslims (717) affected the Jews' public conduct as well as their religious observances and legal status. The imposition of heavy taxes on agricultural land compelled many to move from rural areas to towns, where their circumstances hardly improved, while increasing social and economic discrimination forced others to leave the country.
By the end of the 11th century, the Jewish community in the Land had diminished considerably and had lost some of its organizational and religious cohesiveness."
The area didn't have a Jewish majority again until some time after the 1948 war.
The first modern census was undertaken by the british in 1922, which found:
The census results were:--
Moslems ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 590,890
Jews ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 83,794
Christians ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 73,024
Druzes ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 7,028
Samaritans ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 163
Bahais ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 265
Metawallis ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 156
Hindoos ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 1,454
Sikhs ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 408
_______
Total ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 757,182
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Originally posted by Nashwan
Gunslinger, whilst your map tells one part of the story, it doesn't tell another part:
(http://www.arena.org.nz/palteror.GIF)
Don't they matter? Do they deserve to live in misery so the settlers can live in subsidised luxury? Does the kid in the photo deserve to be frightened by the soldier, as he clearly is?
In this photo the soldier does not appear to be actually pointing the weapon at the child? There is no telling what is actually going on in the photo and nothing to verify it's authenticity.
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Originally posted by Nashwan
Gunslinger, whilst your map tells one part of the story, it doesn't tell another part:
It doesn't show that most of those countries have an irrational hatred for Isreal. It also doesn't convey that most of those countries are oppressive throwbacks to the 12th century.
The soldier has his gun more pointed towards those bags. I wonder if it's at all possible that sometimes Palestinians carry bombs around.
Israel has one tenth of one percent of the land in the MIddle East, and the Arabs want to wipe them out. Israel is doing what it needs to do to survive, and I think it's great.
Israel is a modern, civilized country who produces great scientists, philosophers, inventers, high tech industry and inventions, Nobel award winners and more. I have all the admiration and respect for that country that I have for my own. I can't even begin to say any of that about any of those other countries.
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Jews had ceased to be a majority many centuries earlier.
I'm unsure of the relevance of this statement. Any minority should be discounted?
No, not at all. Simply correcting a factualy incorrect statement, and one which implies the area "should" be Jewish because it's always been Jewish owned.
So they live in Israel and have to obey Israeli law?
No, they don't live in Israel. If they did, they'd be entitled to citizenship.
They live in the West Bank, which even Israel does not claim is part of Israel. Israel claims it's "disputed", which Israel uses as an excuse to control and exploit the land, without having to give rights to the Palestinians who live on it.
Maybe they should go to an Arab Country and work there
Or maybe they should be allowed to live in their homes with the same rights as if they'd been born as Jews, and not Arabs?
Maybe Israel should just boot them all out, lock the door, put up a few more barriers,
Yes, because ethnic cleansing is always good. Of course, we went to war with Serbia when they tried it, but we can't be expected to apply the same standards everywhere.
and then every few years kick the crap out of any Arab State that attacks or threatens to attack them....starting with Iran. My money's on the Israelis.
My money's on Iran aquiring nuclear weapons in the next few years, and then both sides better start taking peace more seriously, if they know what's good for them.
Maybe if his Poppa and his friends stop wearing Semtex vests, he wouldnt have to be scared so much? Then there would also be less roadblocks.
The roadblocks preceeded the semtex vests. From today's Ha'aretz (Ha'aretz is one of Israel's leading newspapers):
"The Israeli policy of preventing freedom of movement for all the Palestinians and granting it, as a privilege, to a few began in 1991 (long before the suicide terror attacks). Israel has always known how to present this policy as a security "response." However, this policy combines well with the Israeli plan to dismember the Palestinian territory that international resolutions have intended for a Palestinian state, i.e., the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, on the borders of June 4, 1967. The Israeli plan as it has been implemented since 1994 is effectively to cut off Gaza from the West Bank and allow the Palestinians in the West Bank to live in between the expanding Jewish settlement blocs, in a few enclaves, between which the transportation connection is subject to Israel's mercies."
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Nashwan,
I was tempted to post some graphic pictures of children, infants, and school teachers killed in a recent bus bombing in Israel, but what - aside from further inflaming the debate - would that solve?
Instead, I'd ask you to give me a few answers to relevant questions.
What solution, other than the "liberation of Palestine," the end of Kufr rule, and the implementation of an explicitly Islamic government, would Muslims be happy with regarding Israel? What solution "in-between" is there?
Israelis control the movements of and aggressively police the Palestinians, but they have never simply attempted to massacre them. What, on the other hand, do you think would happen to Jews in the event of an Islamic takeover? Would they be safe to remain in the "New Palestinian State"?
Given that Israel grants Muslims living under Israeli government full religious freedom, but that none of the Arab nations in the 10/40 window allow non-Muslims to freely practice or promote their religion, do you believe that Jews would be accorded the same full freedom of religion in this new state - especially when such freedom goes directly against Shariah law?
What benefit would the international community gain from the destruction of Israel? Will the ongoing assimilation of Europe end? Will Arabs suddenly love the West? Will terrorism, aimed at removing the Kufr presence in the middle east decrease or expand? Will our ability to combat it be heightened or decreased by the elimination of the Mossad and the IDF? Will terrorist groups allied with the Muslim Brotherhood like Hamas and Islamic Jihad disband? Will Muslims respect a force they defeated in a war of attrition?
Do you really believe that the best solution to "Bad" is "Worse"?
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
(http://www.protestwarrior.com/nimages/signs/large/pw_sign_22.gif)
:rofl
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Originally posted by SkyWolf
In this photo the soldier does not appear to be actually pointing the weapon at the child? There is no telling what is actually going on in the photo and nothing to verify it's authenticity.
Quit with your crazy thinking. You're not supposed to pay that much attention, so you feel the outrage the photo editor wants you to feel. The edited-out guy lying on the ground with a bulky coat, wires hanging out, and a gun in his belt is irrelevant. There's a kid, and he's by a mean Jew with a gun! Teh horrar!
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In this photo the soldier does not appear to be actually pointing the weapon at the child? There is no telling what is actually going on in the photo and nothing to verify it's authenticity.
I don't think the soldier is pointing the gun at the child. That's not the point of the photo. The photo is merely an illustration of the occupation. I could have chosen a more graphic one, like a dead child, but it's not appropriate.
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Nice website where you got that picture Nashwan.
http://www.arena.org.nz/
Very similar to our Anarchists websites I've seen. :rolleyes:
Nashwan, serious question, do you think photos like this that portray a soldier pointing a rifle at a child (which he is not, he's checking his rifle) tend to sway young minds into a fury and such photos have serious political motives behind them in order to persuade younger people to act?
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nashwan... what polices worse than apartheid are these poor arabs living under?
I think you are full of it.
sky... generalize? sure.... I'm generalizing.... I generalize that most gang members here are scum and that most jews here are worthless socialists compared to those jews...
My "ignorance" won't get me into too many mistakes on either generalization tho.... they are pretty accurate generalizations... good enough.
lazs
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Originally posted by Nashwan
They live in the West Bank, which even Israel does not claim is part of Israel. Israel claims it's "disputed", which Israel uses as an excuse to control and exploit the land, without having to give rights to the Palestinians who live on it.
My apologies. I meant travel to and work in Israel.
Or maybe they should be allowed to live in their homes with the same rights as if they'd been born as Jews, and not Arabs?
Maybe in a perfect world where no one wore bombs.
Yes, because ethnic cleansing is always good. Of course, we went to war with Serbia when they tried it, but we can't be expected to apply the same standards everywhere.
I never said anything about ethnic cleansing. That was a ridiculously pompous statement. I was actually considering some of your other arguments until you pulled that little jewel out of your keester. Belch on... oh he of little credibility. Wasn't Nashwan a race horse? I now know which end you are.
My money's on Iran aquiring nuclear weapons in the next few years, and then both sides better start taking peace more seriously, if they know what's good for them.
My Money is on the Israelis removing Iran's ability to that within the next few months. And I'm right behind them. I don't know why we didn't Pave Iran back in the 70's.
"The Israeli policy Israel's mercies."
Sounds like an Editorial or an opinion piece? I've only read the online version a few times and saw nothing like that. I stopped reading it after I discovered they have a tendancy to play fast and loose with the facts...especially between the English and Hebrew versions. It's not "the" Leading Hebrew Publication.
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Originally posted by Nashwan
It's the daily story for millions of Palestinians, having to negotiate an Israeli roadblock. Because whilst only a tiny proportion of "muslim lands" are occupied by Israel, millions of Palestinians live their lives under a harsh Israeli military occupation.
maybe that is because they are to busy trying to kill the jews thanto create a country for themselves where they could work and be productive Palestines instead of having to go into Israel for jobs as the biggest "Pal industry" is bombing making...
if the mexicans became suicide bombers, the US would be pointing guns at every strawberry picker too, and if they didn't, there would be an uproar as to why not
some more of your pals at "work" nashwan:
Suicide bomber kills 5 in Israel (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051026/ts_nm/mideast_dc)
looks like this one got his five a day limit .. why don't you give him a big high five!
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Originally posted by Nashwan
I don't think the soldier is pointing the gun at the child. That's not the point of the photo. The photo is merely an illustration of the occupation. I could have chosen a more graphic one, like a dead child, but it's not appropriate.
That's nice. Your photo shows nothing about occupation. It is only meant to incite and that's why it's posted on a sweetheart-bag site like Arena. God you are a pompous, holier than thou, windbag. I have to stop now. You have beaten me with your asinine responses.
You have convinced me however.... we should just pave that festering cesspool known as the Middle East, put up a big gas station, and let the Israeli's run the pump.
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I vote we give iraq to the isralelies... Let some civilized people run it for a while.
lazs
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Originally posted by Nashwan
Gunslinger, whilst your map tells one part of the story, it doesn't tell another part:
That could also be subtitled End the occupation of Muslim lands.
It's the daily story for millions of Palestinians, having to negotiate an Israeli roadblock. Because whilst only a tiny proportion of "muslim lands" are occupied by Israel, millions of Palestinians live their lives under a harsh Israeli military occupation.
Don't they matter? Do they deserve to live in misery so the settlers can live in subsidised luxury? Does the kid in the photo deserve to be frightened by the soldier, as he clearly is?
Nashwan while your photo doesn't show anything at all about the situation. I'll feel sorry for the palestinians the day they stop advocating the murdering and killing of innocents.
If my neighbor had a dog that kept attacking my kids and he refused to do anything about you'd bet I'd march my happy bellybutton on his property and shoot it myself.
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I was tempted to post some graphic pictures of children, infants, and school teachers killed in a recent bus bombing in Israel, but what - aside from further inflaming the debate - would that solve?
Nothing, that's why I didn't post a graphic picture. Whilst doing a quick Goole image search to find that one, I found another showing a 16 year old Palestinian boy, shot dead by the IDF, with an IDF soldier standing over the body, pointing and laughing. But why inflame the debate?
We could still go down that route if you want. God knows there's enough material out there for both of us. I'm sure Skuzzy would lock it pretty quickly, but I'm also sure I'd be pretty sick after only a couple of posts.
What solution, other than the "liberation of Palestine," the end of Kufr rule, and the implementation of an explicitly Islamic government, would Muslims be happy with regarding Israel? What solution "in-between" is there?
An end to the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, Palestinian sovereignty over East Jerusalem.
Something like, say, The Geneva Accord (unnofical treaty negotiated between Yossi Beilin and Yasser Rabbo)
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=351461
Or the Saudi peace plan:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1844214.stm
Or the roadmap:
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2003/20062.htm
Or what about the plan Amos Malka, then head of Israeli military intelligence, advised Ehud Barak that Arafat would accept at Camp David:
"We assumed that it is possible to reach an agreement with Arafat under the following conditions: a Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital and sovereignty on the Temple Mount; 97 percent of the West Bank plus exchanges of territory in the ratio of 1:1 with respect to the remaining territory; some kind of formula that includes the acknowledgement of Israel's responsibility for the refugee problem and a willingness to accept 20,000-30,000 refugees. All along the way ... it was MI's assessment that he had to get some kind of statement that would not depict him as having relinquished this, but would be prepared for a very limited implementation.""
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=%20437895&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y
Israelis control the movements of and aggressively police the Palestinians, but they have never simply attempted to massacre them. What, on the other hand, do you think would happen to Jews in the event of an Islamic takeover? Would they be safe to remain in the "New Palestinian State"?
I wouldn't think so now. The last 60 years have created a great deal of bitterness amongst the Palestinians.
But then again, the suggestion that Rabin might evacuate the Jewish settlement of Hebron saw Baruch Goldstein shoot dead 29 Arabs, and the recent evacuation of the Gaza settlements saw 2 Jewish terrorists kill 7 Palestinians. And being British in Palestine in the 40s wasn't exactly safe, because Jewish terrorists didn't like the immigration policy.
Given that Israel grants Muslims living under Israeli government full religious freedom, but that none of the Arab nations in the 10/40 window allow non-Muslims to freely practice or promote their religion, do you believe that Jews would be accorded the same full freedom of religion in this new state - especially when such freedom goes directly against Shariah law?
Prior to the establishment of the state of Israel, hundreds of thousands of Jews did live the Arab countries, and seem to have been able to practice their religion.
What benefit would the international community gain from the destruction of Israel?
A reduction in terrorism, I'd have thought. I don't know anyone in the international community who's advocating that, though. Or on this board, either.
Will the ongoing assimilation of Europe end?
You mean will European governments stop importing Muslims to make up for their low birth rates? No. Their welfare states will collapse without immigration, because their tax policies work against having children.
Will terrorism, aimed at removing the Kufr presence in the middle east decrease or expand?
Decrease. Events in Israel/Palestine are a very good recruiting tool.
Will our ability to combat it be heightened or decreased by the elimination of the Mossad and the IDF?
Little change. Mossad and the IDF work very much for Israel. Their intelligence on Iraq, for example, didn't prove very accurate.
Western governments are more focused on Al Qaeda, and they have no practical presence in Israel/Palestine.
Will terrorist groups allied with the Muslim Brotherhood like Hamas and Islamic Jihad disband?
I should think Hamas would be preoccupied with the internal power struggle amongst the Palestinians.
But their support base, the poor of Gaza who want to fight back against the Israelis, aren't going to be very enthused to go to other parts of the world to start a new fight.
Will Muslims respect a force they defeated in a war of attrition?
Yes and no. Hamas have certainly gained hugely from having driven Israel out of Gaza. But Hezbollah have respected Israeli military might since they drove them out of Lebanon.
Do you really believe that the best solution to "Bad" is "Worse"?
No. I believe the best solution to "bad" is "better". Unlike many, I don't think we should stick with "bad" until we can get "best".
Pulling out of the West Bank would make the situation better. Not perfect, but much better than now. Just as pulling out of Lebanon made the situation much better.
Just to comment on one of your earlier points:
Therefore, because Palestine became Muslim when the Seljuk Turks defeated the Byzantines in 1071 (Palestine was nominally Christian before it was Muslim) it is now forever part of the Dar-El-Islam and can never legally be ruled by Kufr such as Jews. Therefore, there are ultimately no "half-measures" possible here. The only long term solution that will satisfy the Palestinians and the Islamic world in general is the elimination of the Kufr state, Israel and the re-establishment of an Islamic state in the region. The existence of Israel is simply unnacceptable.
That's crazy you say? Well friends, that really is the Arabic worldview. They happen to think your worldview based on politics and materialism is equally crazy.
Spain? Became Muslim under the Moors. So there can be no peace until Spain is again a Muslim country? Forgive me, but I don't see Spanish Christianity being a major problem amongst the Arabs? Or is that why Morocco keeps asking for Ceuta and Mellila? Are they just the first step to demanding Madrid?
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The Jews were expelled by the Romans, for a rebellion against Roman military rule. From the Israeli government's ministry of foreign affairs:
"By the end of the 4th century, following Emperor Constantine's adoption of Christianity (313) and the founding of the Byzantine Empire, the Land of Israel had become a predominantly Christian country. Churches were built on Christian holy sites in Jerusalem, Bethlehem and Galilee, and monasteries were established in many parts of the country.
Jews were deprived of their former relative autonomy, as well as of their right to hold public positions, and were forbidden to enter Jerusalem except on one day of the year (Tisha b'Av - ninth of Av) to mourn the destruction of the Temple.
The Persian invasion of 614 was aided by the Jews, who were inspired by messianic hopes of deliverance. In gratitude for their help, they were granted the administration of Jerusalem, an interlude which lasted about three years. Subsequently, the Byzantine army regained the city (629) and again expelled its Jewish inhabitants."
"The Arab conquest of the Land came four years after the death of the prophet Muhammad (632) and lasted more than four centuries, with caliphs ruling first from Damascus, then from Baghdad and Egypt.
At the outset, Jewish settlement in Jerusalem resumed, and the Jewish community was granted the customary status of protected non-Muslims, which safeguarded their lives, property and freedom of worship in return for payment of special poll and land taxes.
However, subsequent restrictions against non-Muslims (717) affected the Jews' public conduct as well as their religious observances and legal status. The imposition of heavy taxes on agricultural land compelled many to move from rural areas to towns, where their circumstances hardly improved, while increasing social and economic discrimination forced others to leave the country.
By the end of the 11th century, the Jewish community in the Land had diminished considerably and had lost some of its organizational and religious cohesiveness."
The area didn't have a Jewish majority again until some time after the 1948 war.
The first modern census was undertaken by the british in 1922, which found:
The census results were:--
Moslems ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 590,890
Jews ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 83,794
Christians ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 73,024
Druzes ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 7,028
Samaritans ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 163
Bahais ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 265
Metawallis ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 156
Hindoos ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 1,454
Sikhs ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 408
_______
Total ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 757,182
Nashwan, I have nothing to say to this then BULL****. NOthing but complete BULL****.
The jews were never expelled from Jerusalem. NEVER. They might not have always had control, but they were ALWAYS THERE.
Want to know the biggest piece of bull of everything you said? The breakdown of the population. #1 clue that you were lying out of your ass.
I'd love to break your statements down word by word as to how you're wrong, but I actually have to do stuff. Plus you wouldn't listen to a word I'd say anyway.
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Originally posted by Nashwan
Spain? Became Muslim under the Moors. So there can be no peace until Spain is again a Muslim country? Forgive me, but I don't see Spanish Christianity being a major problem amongst the Arabs? Or is that why Morocco keeps asking for Ceuta and Mellila? Are they just the first step to demanding Madrid?
how many muslim and jewish holey sites are in the country of spain? How many crusades were sent to spain to reclaim these sites?
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Nashwan, I have nothing to say to this then BULL****. NOthing but complete BULL****.
The jews were never expelled from Jerusalem. NEVER. They might not have always had control, but they were ALWAYS THERE.
Want to know the biggest piece of bull of everything you said? The breakdown of the population. #1 clue that you were lying out of your ass.
I'd love to break your statements down word by word as to how you're wrong, but I actually have to do stuff. Plus you wouldn't listen to a word I'd say anyway.
What do you have that discounts the census results?
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Nashwan, serious question, do you think photos like this that portray a soldier pointing a rifle at a child (which he is not, he's checking his rifle) tend to sway young minds into a fury
No. I think people who want to be swayed into a fury will be, no matter what picture you show them. People who don't will require much more than a simple picture like that.
nashwan... what polices worse than apartheid are these poor arabs living under?
Closures, for one. Roads reserved for Jews only, for another. Curfews, for a third. Different systems of courts, for a fourth. And Lazs, they're not even allowed to own guns! The horror!
sky... generalize? sure.... I'm generalizing.... I generalize that most gang members here are scum and that most jews here are worthless socialists compared to those jews...
Isn't that sort of the opposite of the old prejudice against Jews? That the Ashkenazi weren't too bad, but the oriental Jews were monsters?
My apologies. I meant travel to and work in Israel.
Most Palestinians have problems trying to travel to and work in the next town.
Maybe in a perfect world where no one wore bombs.
Oh, collective punishment, you mean? Perhaps you could drive the blacks out of America, because they deal drugs?
I never said anything about ethnic cleansing. That was a ridiculously pompous statement.
Huh? You said:
Maybe Israel should just boot them all out, lock the door, put up a few more barriers,
Ethnic cleansing The systematic elimination of an ethnic group or groups from a region or society, as by deportation, forced emigration, or genocide.
Sounds like an Editorial or an opinion piece?
Editorial. Based on James Wolfensohn's letter of a few days ago (Wolfensohn is the US peace envoy, appointed by Bush)
maybe that is because they are to busy trying to kill the jews thanto create a country for themselves where they could work and be productive Palestines instead of having to go into Israel for jobs as the biggest "Pal industry" is bombing making...
What, you mean like run the greenhouses in Gaza, export the produce for cash? Read Wolfehsohn's report. Israel is restricting all movement of goods into or out of Palestinian areas, is dragging it's feet on looking at easing the restrictions, and doing so deliberately.
if the mexicans became suicide bombers, the US would be pointing guns at every strawberry picker too, and if they didn't, there would be an uproar as to why not
Invade Mexico, put it under military occupation, restrict movement, establish settlements. See if the Mexicans remain friendly.
looks like this one got his five a day limit .. why don't you give him a big high five!
Because I don't like terrorism. I don't like oppresion either, so I won't be high-fiving either side.
If my neighbor had a dog that kept attacking my kids and he refused to do anything about you'd bet I'd march my happy bellybutton on his property and shoot it myself.
And this analogy applies to Palestinians how? Do you think the child in the picture is a rabid dog? Do you think the Palestinians are a single entity with a single aim and all responsible for the same actions?
By the same token, are all Jews responsible for the actions of some Jews? Do the Jews killed in the terrorist attack today deserve to die because of the actions of other Jews?
Myself, I think people are individuals, and punishing all for the actions of some is wrong. The Geneva convention says the same.
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Nashwan, I have nothing to say to this then BULL****. NOthing but complete BULL****.
The jews were never expelled from Jerusalem. NEVER. They might not have always had control, but they were ALWAYS THERE.
A small minority were. If you don't believe me, how about the Israeli goverment?
"Without the unifying framework of a state and the Temple, the small remaining Jewish community gradually recovered, reinforced from time to time by returning exiles."
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/History/History+of+Israel/HISTORY-%20The%20Second%20Temple
"By the end of the 4th century, following Emperor Constantine's adoption of Christianity (313) and the founding of the Byzantine Empire, the Land of Israel had become a predominantly Christian country. Churches were built on Christian holy sites in Jerusalem, Bethlehem and Galilee, and monasteries were established in many parts of the country.
Jews were deprived of their former relative autonomy, as well as of their right to hold public positions, and were forbidden to enter Jerusalem except on one day of the year (Tisha b'Av - ninth of Av) to mourn the destruction of the Temple."
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Facts+About+Israel/History/HISTORY-+Foreign+Domination.htm
"Consequently, the situation of the country's Jews slowly improved, and their numbers increased substantially. By mid-century, overcrowded conditions within the walled city of Jerusalem motivated the Jews to build the first neighborhood outside the walls (1860) and, in the next quarter century, to add seven more, forming the nucleus of the New City. By 1870, Jerusalem had an overall Jewish majority. "
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Facts+About+Israel/History/HISTORY-+Foreign+Domination.htm
Either the Israeli government is lying, or you're wrong.
Want to know the biggest piece of bull of everything you said? The breakdown of the population. #1 clue that you were lying out of your ass.
I'm sorry, but those are the figures obtained by the British census of 1922. See the Mandate report to the League of Nations:
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/a682cabf739febaa052565e8006d907c?OpenDocument
Maybe the British were lying in 1922? Or maybe you're wrong about this, as well.
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Originally posted by Nashwan
And this analogy applies to Palestinians how? Do you think the child in the picture is a rabid dog? Do you think the Palestinians are a single entity with a single aim and all responsible for the same actions?
By the same token, are all Jews responsible for the actions of some Jews? Do the Jews killed in the terrorist attack today deserve to die because of the actions of other Jews?
Myself, I think people are individuals, and punishing all for the actions of some is wrong. The Geneva convention says the same.
It's more applicable than your spain alalogy. And yes the kid could be the dog in the scenerio. Children have been suicide bombers before. I stand by my statement and it goes with your Mexico analogy as well.
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(http://www.arena.org.nz/palteror.GIF)
Ellian Gonzalez?
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Jordan could easily be called Palestine based on population
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Originally posted by Krusher
Jordan could easily be called Palistine based on population
Heck you could call southern california and texas, Mexico if you base it on population.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Heck you could call southern california and texas, Mexico if you base it on population.
how long before you think that happens?
They already have plans
Reconquista (http://www.barnesreview.org/The__Reconquista_-Mexico_s_Dre/the__reconquista_-mexico_s_dre.html)
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Originally posted by Krusher
how long before you think that happens?
They already have plans
Reconquista (http://www.barnesreview.org/The__Reconquista_-Mexico_s_Dre/the__reconquista_-mexico_s_dre.html)
Yeah, isn't that how the Germans tried to lure Mexico into fighting us in WW1?
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Nashwan,
I was tempted to post some graphic pictures of children, infants, and school teachers killed in a recent bus bombing in Israel, but what - aside from further inflaming the debate - would that solve?
- SEAGOON
Yeah and I'd answer by posting pictures of Arabs pulling dead childrens from the ruins of the buildings which israeli missiles blew up.
Are you thinking there's good and bad side in there?
News flash; both sides are killing innocent civilians and you're living in denial if you think Israel is somehow on the "Good side".
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...u can be sure that these would violate iranian airspace
(http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/israel/images/f-16i-pic01-s.jpg)
(http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/israel/images/f-16i-12-s.jpg)
(http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/israel/images/f-16i-pic03-s.jpg)
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Astac, it really was Jewish Land. It always had been. Jews had lived there long before Islam even existed.
Who lived before the jews and were merciless massacred by a thing called "יהוה" ?
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Hello Nashwan,
Let me specifically deal with two areas, one were you are historically correct, and one were you aren't. I'm going to have to break them into two replies, because space constraints make it impossible not to...
First you are correct to assert that the Jews were either exterminated or removed from Jerusalem after the first Jewish rebellion collapsed in 70AD. William Hendriksen gives this quick summary of the events:
"The siege began in April of the year a.d. 70, while Jerusalem was still filled with Passover pilgrims. For the terror that ensued one should read Josephus, Jewish War, especially Books IV to VII. After a siege of about five months the Romans finally overwhelmed the entire city. According to Josephus the total number of prisoners taken throughout the entire war was 97,000, while 1,100,000 perished during the siege (Jewish War VI.420). Even though these figures may be exaggerated, the number must have been enormous.
The war was inexcusably cruel. Not only was the temple given up to the flames but the entire city—except three towers and a portion of the western wall—was razed. By the thousands aged men, women, regardless of their physical condition, and even little children were murdered. Some of the prisoners were subsequently thrown to the wild beasts, others were sold into slavery “into all the nations,” while a select number of the strongest and best-looking captives figured in the triumphal procession which Rome gave to the conquerors, and which Josephus describes in such elaborate detail, as if the terrible slaughter were really something to be proud of.
For many, many years no Jew was allowed to reside in or even to visit Jerusalem, which was made a pagan city."
---------------
- SEAGOON
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Hello again Nashwan,
When you stated this,
Originally posted by Nashwan
Spain? Became Muslim under the Moors. So there can be no peace until Spain is again a Muslim country? Forgive me, but I don't see Spanish Christianity being a major problem amongst the Arabs? Or is that why Morocco keeps asking for Ceuta and Mellila? Are they just the first step to demanding Madrid?
Then you obviously haven't been reading Islamic Websites, or many of the Islamic works written since the end of the colonial era and the beginning of what Muslim scholars regard as the present "revival" of Islam. Yes, they plan on reabsorbing Andalusia, this is a long term goal, but one which Muslims have been dreaming of since 1492.
The following article, for instance, was published in the Toronto Star a little while ago (I'll have to split it into 2 parts):
Andalusia's connection
One year after the Madrid bombings, calls for made-in-Spain imams grow stronger in a region that still reflects on its past Muslim glories
SANDRO CONTENTA
EUROPEAN BUREAU
At the Jamal Islamiya mosque in this seaside town, a Muslim lament of historic proportions is proclaimed in large letters on a framed poster: "In 1492, we lost everything."
For the mosque's leader, and much of the Muslim world, the year marks the traumatic conclusion of Islam's golden age, a time remembered like a collective wound.
It's a period when the last piece of Muslim-held territory in Spain fell to Catholic monarchs, ending almost 800 years of Moorish rule on the Iberian peninsula.
Centuries when poetry, science and architecture flourished under Islamic caliphs expired with bonfires of Arabic manuscripts, mass expulsion and extermination in the Inquisition.
To the east, the Muslim empire of the Ottomans would reign for another four centuries. But many would trace its long decline to the fall of Al Andalus, the Moorish name for Andalusia.
The result is a yearning that today makes Spain, more than any other European country, a battleground in the name of Islam.
"They stole 500 years of history from us," says Omar Checa Garcia, who heads the Jamal Islamiya mosque and cultural centre. "We want it back, but we don't want revenge."
Others are not so accommodating. Osama bin Laden uses what he calls the "tragedy of Al Andalus" as a rallying cry for his deadly brand of Islamic jihad against "the crusaders and Jews."
After the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks on the United States, bin Laden's chief lieutenant, Ayman al Zawahiri, drew a parallel between the loss of the Iberian peninsula and the struggle of Palestinians.
"We will not accept that the tragedy of Al Andalus be repeated in Palestine," he said.
The taped sermons of some militant Islamic clerics admonish followers with the legend of "The Moor's Sigh."
Having surrendered Granada to King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella, the Catholic monarchs of Castile and Aragon, a tearful Sultan Boabdil was scolded by his mother: "You weep like a woman for what you could not hold as a man."
On March 11, 2004, a cell of mainly Moroccan extremists, calling themselves "the brigade situated in Al Andalus," detonated 10 bombs that killed 191 people on Madrid commuter trains.
Many Spaniards blamed their conservative government's support of the Iraq war for making them targets.
Three days after the bombings, they swept the Socialist party to power and it moved quickly to withdraw Spanish troops from Iraq.
But jihad fuelled by the lost glory of Al Andalus suggests that won't be enough to take Spain off the target list.
In a communiqué claiming responsibility for the March 11 bombings, the cell invoked the name of the Moorish warrior who conquered the Iberian peninsula in 711.
"We will continue our jihad until martyrdom in the land of Tarik Ben Ziyad," it said.
Says Gustavo Aristiquie, an opposition MP and terrorism expert: "Spain is considered an apostate country that must be reconquered for Islam. It's a sacred duty, and that's why the jihadis are attacking."
The bombings also focused attention on Spain's estimated 1 million Muslims, most of them North African immigrants.
Illegal immigration is rapidly increasing their numbers, making integration one of Prime Minister José Luis Rodriguez Zapatero's biggest challenges.
Warnings that mosques are increasingly falling under the control of radical clerics are coming from anti-terrorism experts and representatives of Spanish converts to Islam, a community estimated at 20,000.
They also warn of tensions between the growing number of immigrants adhering to fundamentalist brands of Islam and right-wing groups rooted in the alliance of fascism and the Catholic Church during Franco's dictatorship, which ended in 1975.
Spanish converts are lobbying the government for funds to train homegrown imams, arguing that defusing social tensions requires clerics who preach an Islam in harmony with European values, which they insist reflects the true spirit of Al Andalus.
"If we don't do this, it's war," says Abdelkarim Carrasco, head of the Federation of Spanish Islamic Entities, one of two Islamic umbrella groups that negotiates with the government.
Carrasco, 56, is a real estate agent in Granada, where members of the March 11 cell spent time in safe houses before the attacks.
Framed by the snow-capped peaks of the Sierra Nevada in southern Spain, Granada was the peninsula's last Moorish kingdom to fall.
Its symbolic significance is heightened by the Alhambra palace, home and seat of government of the Nasrid rulers. The only Muslim palace to survive from the Middle Ages, it stands above the city on the Assabica hills, revered by Muslims and celebrated by tourists.
"I tell my Christian friends, `You are eating from the stones left by the Moors,'" says Carrasco, referring to Granada's booming tourist industry.
On a hilltop directly across from the Alhambra, the first Granada mosque to be built in 500 years opened its doors in 2003. Before construction, the choice of the highly symbolic site met with two decades of resistance from local authorities, not least because it is squeezed between a Catholic church and a nun's convent.
"The church hierarchy is very hostile to Islam," says Abdulhasib Castineira, director of the Great Mosque, which was built largely with funds from Morocco, Malaysia and the United Arab Emirates.
===============
End of Part 1
- SEAGOON
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Part 2 -
"I think they feel threatened, actually, because if you come to this mosque on a Friday, it's packed. The church next door is only opened for weddings."
Down the hill, hidden among the steep alleyways of the ancient Moorish quarter of Albaicin, is the Al Taqwa mosque, which is also fronted by a Spanish convert but financed by the United Arab Emirates.
"My responsibility here is to make sure that Andalusia returns to being an Islamic country," says Zakaria Maza, whose mosque has two clerics from Mauritania as imams.
Maza recently spearheaded a drive to allow Muslims to pray in part of the former mosque in Cordoba, north of Granada.
Cordoba was the seat of power when the caliphate of the Umayyad clan was at its height, commanding what was then considered Al Andalus — the whole of the Iberian peninsula except for Galicia. (Today, Andalusia refers to the southern-most of Spain's 17 autonomous regions.)
As the political and religious authority, the Cordoba caliphate rivalled other Islamic dynasties based in Damascus and Baghdad. But internal feuds saw it disintegrate into competing Islamic kingdoms in 1031.
By then, the Umayyads had built a masterpiece of Islamic art, the vast Cordoba mosque. But Catholics conquered the city in 1236, built a cathedral in the middle of the mosque and barred Muslims.
Maza, a 54-year-old native of Cordoba, points in disgust to a notice on tickets handed to tourists who visit it: "Keep in mind that you are visiting a Catholic temple."
"This is terrible," he says. "We ask that everything goes back to how it should be."
Maza argues that allowing Muslims to share the former mosque would be a "sign of tolerance to the world." But he leaves the door open to eventually taking over the whole site.
The request to share the cathedral had the backing of the government MP for the area, Juan Luis Rascon, who also sits on the parliamentary inquiry into the March 11 attacks. But the Vatican dismissed the idea, urging Muslims to "accept history."
Still, Maza says victory is only a matter of time.
"Islam's time has come again, whether people like it or not. We can predict that Andalusia will once again be Muslim."
Most Muslim immigrants in the region end up working at vegetable farms around centres like Almeria, with its white stucco buildings set between desert hills and the sea east of Granada.
Five years ago, after a Moroccan murdered a Spaniard, race riots broke out in a neighbouring town and the shacks of migrant workers were burned. Area residents regard the incident as a cautionary tale, but it hasn't stopped the migratory pull of the local economy.
In Almeria's port district, the peaceful reconquest of this originally Moorish city seems well under way. The neighbourhood teems with North Africans sipping mint tea in coffee shops and streaming into the Al Muhsinin mosque.
The mosque's Palestinian cleric, Abdallah Mhanna, says at least 80,000 Muslims live in the area, some 30,000 of them illegally. Many complain of being exploited with low wages and poor housing.
Mhanna, 41, arrived six years ago from Gaza and says he was immediately struck by Andalusia's Islamic past.
"I can see the soul of Islam here," says Mhanna, who studied at Islamic University in Gaza, where the militant Hamas group wields much influence.
"We are not looking to Andalusia as our land, no. This is the land of Spanish people. But it is part of our Islamic civilization."
Andalusia is the "land of daawa" — a place where Islam is to be spread by the word and not by the sword, he says.
He flatly rejects the methods of the March 11 bombers — "killing civilians is terrorism" — but embraces the hard-line ideology of the Muslim Brotherhood, which rejects secular tendencies in Islamic states.
Formed in Egypt in 1928, the brotherhood is the mother of several Islamic radical groups, including Hamas. But it also has branches that reject violent activity, and those are the ones Mhanna says he supports.
At Jamal Islamiya, Almeria's only other mosque, Garcia isn't reassured.
Having adopted Islam 20 years ago, he says many of the 7,000 Spanish converts in the Almeria area are, like him, leftists who rediscovered their true Andalusian roots.
"The real identity of Andalusia was crushed by Spain and the Catholic Church, which forced our grandparents to become Catholics," he says.
Garcia is an Andalusian nationalist. He sees the brand of Islam brought by most North African immigrants as "reactionary" and foreign.
He several times blocked bids by North African Muslims to take over his mosque, including one group that camped inside for three days before he threw them out.
Last fall, five of the nine people arrested in connection with a plot to blow up the High Court in Madrid lived in the Almeria area, including the imam of a mosque in a nearby town.
"This generation of immigrants is lost. It's under the influence of these reactionary mosques," Garcia says.
He insists social harmony depends on government backing to train Spanish imams for a homegrown Islam that embraces a multicultural and multi-faith society where women are equal, religion is a private matter and laws are secular.
Otherwise, Garcia warns, "there could be a disaster. March 11 could happen again
-----------------------------
- SEAGOON
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nash have you seen yoav shamir's documentary "checkpoints"?
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Originally posted by SkyWolf
So they live in Israel and have to obey Israeli law? Imagine that.
The occupied territories are not Isreal
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Someone explain to me who the modern Plaistinians are? Sadat was an Egyptian. His home land being Egypt, how was he leading anyone back to his Palistinian homeland? I also thought ethnically by birth origin the founders of the current group of Palistinians were from all over the Muslim world. Kinda like Sadat being from Egypt.
So how come before this modern round of Palistine homeland stuff got started in the 20th century didn't any of the Muslim countries take in these Muslims?
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They are all Arabs Bustr, Palestine is just a region. The Palestinians are obviously those people who live in the area or are descendants of those who were forced out by Israel. Jordan took in a lot of Palestinians until they became a threat. They were forced out in the during the infamous 'Black September' purge by King Hussein. But all are Arabs and share the grievances against Israel. The Iranians of course are not Arab but share a religion.
The comments by the Iranian president must be taken in the context of all the usual BS that comes out of the mouths of anti Israeli groups everywhere. It's all talk. Despite numerous wars and the combined efforts of all those Arab and Muslim countries. Israel is still there. Not least because the Arabs and it seems the Persians are big talkers and poor fighters. That map while amusing serves to make the point. Israel is tiny. The Arab world is huge. But Israel is seen as the great oppressor of all Arabs!!!! Tiny little Israel.
Iran will do nothing. The president is full of hot air. A nuclear attack on Israel would kill more Palestinians than anything else.
The article on Andalusia is interesting and serves only to illustrate how delusional some Muslims are about their place in the world. I hope someone pointed out to the guy that the only reason it was a Muslim area in the first place was because it was conquered from the Spanish who eventually took it back. They need to be careful, although the Spanish are a very tolerant people. Far too many of the Muslims are illegal immigrants. It's only a short boat ride home to Africa should the Spanish get tough.
There was some chance that Islam would grow to be a real force in Europe and elsewhere until the extremists began their antics. Now Muslims are looked on with suspicion everywhere, rightly or wrongly. Essentially Islam will be tolerated rather than welcomed from now on. Suicide bombers do nothing for Islam or their cause. The sooner they realise that the better for us all.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
(http://www.protestwarrior.com/nimages/signs/large/pw_sign_22.gif)
:O :cry :rofl
im sorry but cant resist
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Originally posted by cpxxx
They are all Arabs Bustr, Palestine is just a region. The Palestinians are obviously those people who live in the area or are descendants of those who were forced out by Israel. Jordan took in a lot of Palestinians until they became a threat. They were forced out in the during the infamous 'Black September' purge by King Hussein. But all are Arabs and share the grievances against Israel. The Iranians of course are not Arab but share a religion.
The comments by the Iranian president must be taken in the context of all the usual BS that comes out of the mouths of anti Israeli groups everywhere. It's all talk. Despite numerous wars and the combined efforts of all those Arab and Muslim countries. Israel is still there. Not least because the Arabs and it seems the Persians are big talkers and poor fighters. That map while amusing serves to make the point. Israel is tiny. The Arab world is huge. But Israel is seen as the great oppressor of all Arabs!!!! Tiny little Israel.
Iran will do nothing. The president is full of hot air. A nuclear attack on Israel would kill more Palestinians than anything else.
The article on Andalusia is interesting and serves only to illustrate how delusional some Muslims are about their place in the world. I hope someone pointed out to the guy that the only reason it was a Muslim area in the first place was because it was conquered from the Spanish who eventually took it back. They need to be careful, although the Spanish are a very tolerant people. Far too many of the Muslims are illegal immigrants. It's only a short boat ride home to Africa should the Spanish get tough.
There was some chance that Islam would grow to be a real force in Europe and elsewhere until the extremists began their antics. Now Muslims are looked on with suspicion everywhere, rightly or wrongly. Essentially Islam will be tolerated rather than welcomed from now on. Suicide bombers do nothing for Islam or their cause. The sooner they realise that the better for us all.
Excellent post!
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Originally posted by Krusher
Jordan could easily be called Palestine based on population
Palestine is a geographic region, most of which lies within the nation fo Jordan. So yes, many Jordanians can call themselves palestinian, just as Isrealis can. It's a geographic region, not a nationality or ethnicity. The PLA "Palestinians" are really Egyptians, Syrians and Jordanians.
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You guys know that the UN did not create Israel, right?
Israel proclaimed intself a state in the hours before the British mandate for managment of the area was about to expire. The US, then Russia almost immediatly recognized Israel as a state.
The area by that time had seen an influx of Jews who had fled Nazi Germany and other areas of Europe. At the time Israel proclaimed itself a state, it was a majority population of Jews.....around 600,000 if I recall. And I am just going by memory, so I may be off a little on that.
The League of nations had set out a goal of creating a Jewish state and an Arab state out of the region. Later, The UN proposal was rejected by both parties.
Then, 6 Arab nations attacked Israel and as a result, Israel captured additional land, which caused a lot of Muslims to flee the area.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
The occupied territories are not Isreal
Yes... as I said above in a previous post.... They only work in Israel. Laws still apply.
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Originally posted by cpxxx
T The Iranians of course are not Arab but share a religion.
Pardon my ignorance. What are Iranians if not Arabs?
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Originally posted by SkyWolf
Pardon my ignorance. What are Iranians if not Arabs?
persians.....they also speak farsi not arabic.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
I'll feel sorry for the palestinians the day they stop advocating the murdering and killing of innocents.
Bingo. As soon as a charismatic one picks up a book and reads a thing or two about Ghandi or MLKjr., voila, Western Opinion will swing the other way.
It's not as though the Palestinians don't have a great argument. It's just their method of arguing will get them absolutely nowhere (except, perhaps, a grave).
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A MAJOR zionist movement started in 1898, or 1902 (I can't remember which). Jews started to realize they were being persecuted in Europe and a lot of them started moving into Israel. Though there were still quite a lot still in Israel.
The holocaust was just the final kick that gave Israel a huge majority.
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I thought Zionism was more a kind of nationalism more than a way to prevent pogroms ,don't forget in the anti-Israel crowd some orthodox jews.
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Didn't the jews use terrorism to get there own state?
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Didn't the jews use terrorism to get there own state?
no.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Didn't the jews use terrorism to get there own state?
Yes
http://thewebfairy.com/nerdcities/Palestine/jewish-terrorism.htm
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Jordan could easily be called Palestine based on population
Yes, it could. Does it solve any problems?
If Jordan is renamed Palestine, what happens to the millions of Palestinians living under Israeli military occupation? Do they become happy to live under occupation because they know somewhere else there is a country called Palestine?
They can't move there, because they can't afford to leave their current homes and land, and Jordan doesn't have enough water or arable land for them (Jordan is mostly desert)
If Canada was renamed the United States, would Americans happily leave and give the current US to the Mexicans?
The Palestinians aren't causing trouble because there is no state called Palestine. Those Palestinians who remained in Israel, and who now have Israeli citizeship, are not involved in terrorism. That's because they have equal rights with Israeli Jews and do not have to live under military occupation. If it was all about a name, they'd be fighting too.
Then you obviously haven't been reading Islamic Websites, or many of the Islamic works written since the end of the colonial era and the beginning of what Muslim scholars regard as the present "revival" of Islam. Yes, they plan on reabsorbing Andalusia, this is a long term goal, but one which Muslims have been dreaming of since 1492.
Seagoon, do you think all Muslims dream of this? Most?
Do Christians dream of of the end times, and want them to come now? All Christians? Most Christians?
Do you really believe it's one of the driving ambitions of the man in the street in Egypt to make Spain a Muslim country?
Can you name any Muslim governments that are working towards that end?
Are individual Muslims nuts? Of course. Just are there are Christians who are nuts. Are there individual Muslims working towards turning Spain into a Muslim country? Of course. Just as there are still Christian missionaries out there trying to civilize Africa, and trying to spread Christianity further.
What about Jews? Do you think Jews dream of extending the boundaries of Israel to the Euphrates? Some Jews? All Jews? Just the nutters?
nash have you seen yoav shamir's documentary "checkpoints"?
I don't know. Probably not, but possibly yes. Is it any good?
Someone explain to me who the modern Plaistinians are? Sadat was an Egyptian
I know he was. He was president of Egypt. What has that got to do with the Palestinians?
If you mean Arafat, his parents were both Palestinian. There is doubt about whether he was born in Cario or Jerusalem, and supporting documentation for both.
If it matters so much where Arafat was born, though, what about Israeli leaders?
Who are the modern Jews? David Ben Gurion was born in Poland. Moshe Sharett was born in the Ukraine. Levi Eshkol was born in the Ukraine. Golda Meir was born in the Ukraine. It's not until 1974 and the election of Yizhak Rabin that Israel had a PM who was born in Israel. And after Rabin came Menachem Begin (born in the Ukraine), Yitzhak Shamir (born in Poland) and Shimon Peres (born in Poland). So are the modern Jews half Polish and half Ukranian?
If Jews retain their identity (and ownership of Israel) after 1500 years away, why does a Palestinian lose his after a few years?
The whole argument is ridiculous.
Jews are people who identify themselves, and who are regarded by the world, as Jewish. Palestinians are people who identify themselves, and who are regarded by the world, as Palestinian.
I also thought ethnically by birth origin the founders of the current group of Palistinians were from all over the Muslim world.
No, ethnicaly by birth they are mostly the descendants of Arabs who lived in Palestine for the past few centuries.
So how come before this modern round of Palistine homeland stuff got started in the 20th century didn't any of the Muslim countries take in these Muslims?
Because before the creation of Israel, there was no need to "take them in", they were living in Palestine.
They are all Arabs Bustr, Palestine is just a region. The Palestinians are obviously those people who live in the area or are descendants of those who were forced out by Israel. Jordan took in a lot of Palestinians until they became a threat. They were forced out in the during the infamous 'Black September' purge by King Hussein.
Just a minor correction to that. The armed Palestinian groups were forced out in "Black September", Jordan is still home to a great many Palestinians, in fact about 60% of the population of Jordan is Palestinian.
The area by that time had seen an influx of Jews who had fled Nazi Germany and other areas of Europe. At the time Israel proclaimed itself a state, it was a majority population of Jews.....around 600,000 if I recall. And I am just going by memory, so I may be off a little on that.
That's a bit off.
The UN partition plan for what is now Israel, the West Bank and Gaza was drawn up in 1947. It proposed 3 areas, a Jewish state, a Palestinian state, and an international area around Jerusalem.
The populations of the 3 areas as proposed were:
Jewish state 498,000 Jews, 325,000 Arabs
Palestinian state 807,000 Arabs, 10,000 Jews
International area 105,000 Arabs 100,000 Jews
The population of what was then Palestine and is now Israel, the West Bank and Gaza was about 65% Arab.
Then, 6 Arab nations attacked Israel and as a result, Israel captured additional land, which caused a lot of Muslims to flee the area.
No. The Jewish forces set about capturing land before the establishment of the state, and before foreign Arab armies intervened. Look up, for example Plan Dalet, or Operation Nachshon. Or the capture of Jaffa (supposed to be in the Palestinian state)
Note, that's not to say this was Jewish aggression, either. Both sides were manoeuvering to secure what they could. But the idea that the Jewish forces sat there until attacked, and then happened to find itself with some extra land, is just as false as claiming Jews attacked peaceful Arabs and stole their land. Both sides realized that war was coming, and both sides wanted to come out if with as much as possible.
Yes... as I said above in a previous post.... They only work in Israel. Laws still apply.
No, only a tiny number work in Israel. The vast majority of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza are either unemployed or work in the West Bank and Gaza.
Didn't the jews use terrorism to get there own state?
Yes. They used terrorism against Arabs, and against the British. They blew up the British embassy in Rome, they sent letter bombs in Britain, they murdered British soldiers and policemen, they murdered British politicians, they murdered the UN peace envoy (Count Folke Bernadotte)
From the British submission the the UN commission on Palestine in 1947:
"The right of any community to use force as a means of gaining its political ends is not admitted in the British Commonwealth. Since the beginning of 1945 the Jews have implicitly claimed this right and have supported by an organized campaign of lawlessness, murder and sabotage their contention that, whatever other interests might be concerned, nothing should be allowed to stand in the way of a Jewish State and free Jewish immigration into Palestine. It is true that large numbers of Jews do not today attempt to defend the crimes that have been committed in the name of these political aspirations. They recognize the damage caused to their good name by these methods in the court of world opinion. Nevertheless, the Jewish community of Palestine still publicly refuses its help to the Administration in suppressing terrorism, on the ground that the Administration's policy is opposed to Jewish interests. The converse of this attitude is clear, and its result, however much the Jewish leaders themselves may not wish it, has been to give active encouragement to the dissidents and freer scope to their activities"
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Originally posted by Nashwan
Those Palestinians who remained in Israel, and who now have Israeli citizeship, are not involved in terrorism. That's because they have equal rights with Israeli Jews and do not have to live under military occupation.
Well imagine that, and they're even free to practice whatever religion they want. You mean all that's required of them is to accept the idea of coexisting with Isreal?
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Just to mention:
Hard to know what is going on in this particular photo. To me the olive-drab bag next to the boy's leg looks exactly like the IDF kit bag every IDF soldier gets on enlistment. Still have mine. Same color, same square shape, same zipper on top down the middle and same black straps on both sides. Wouldn't think Palestinians are copying IDF luggage styles. But it's hard to know. This might be a checkpoint, or, who knows, maybe these are concerned relatives of a Bedouin IDF soldier going to duty. The vest the soldier is wearing reminds me of the vest the Bedouin trackers wore when I did reserves (different from what I got). Thankfully the soldier's finger is clearly off the trigger. And the butt is up in the air off the soldier's shoulder. Not the best way to fire. The weapon doesn't appear to be aimed at the couple or the child, and it's hard to tell if it is aimed at the woman in the scarf. Don't see the dust cover or bold assist on the rifle, so maybe the soldier really is a lefty. The angle of the soldier's head seems to indicate to me he is not looking at the woman in the scarf.
(http://www.arena.org.nz/palteror.GIF)
Best Regards,
Cement
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Originally posted by Excel1
Yes
http://thewebfairy.com/nerdcities/Palestine/jewish-terrorism.htm
Well....THAT has to be the most reliable, unbiased, and respected "news" source ever cited (well...short of the Stormfront anyway).
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you pretend it didn't happened ?
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Didn't the jews use terrorism to get there own state?
No, that kind of terrorism is called freedom fighting...freedom fighters we don't like are called terrorists...
Tronsky
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Well imagine that, and they're even free to practice whatever religion they want. You mean all that's required of them is to accept the idea of coexisting with Isreal?
No. Citizenship isn't on offer to the vast majority of Palestinians.
There are, broadly, 3 different sets of territory in question. There's Israel proper. That's the area that was controlled by Israel from the 1949 ceasefire to 1967. Most of the world recognises that as Israel, including Israel itself.
There's the West Bank. That's the area that was occupied by Jordan prior to 1967, then occupied by Israel. No country recognises the West Bank as part of Israel. Not even Israel itself. Israel claims the West Bank is "disputed". The West Bank is under Israeli military occupation.
There's the Gaza strip. Gaza was occupied by Egypt until 1967, then by Israel. Israel withdrew from Gaza a few weeks ago, but continues to control all passages into and out of Gaza.
There are approx 6 million people in Israel proper. About 5 million are Jews, 1 million are Arabs. The 1 million Arabs have practically the same rights as the Jews, and are full citizens of Israel (although there is widespread discrimination)
The 1 million Israeli Arabs are not, by and large, ivolved in terrorism, although there have been isolated cases of them aiding Palestinian terrorists. (there have even been a tiny number of Jews aiding Palestinian terrorists)
There are about 1.4 million Palestinians living in the Gaza strip. They are not citizens of Israel. In fact, because there is no Palestinian state, they are not citizens of anywhere. They were until recently subject to Israeli military law, their status is unclear at the moment. Until recently there were about 7,000 Jewish settlers in Gaza, they were evacuated a couple of months ago.
There are just over 2 million Palestinians living in the West Bank. They are not citizens of Israel, or anywhere else. They are subject to Israeli military law.
There are also about 200,000 Israeli Jewish settlers living in the West Bank. Israel has appropriated about 40 - 50% of the West Bank for development of the Jewish population.
When you add up the populations, you see that there are just over 5 million Jews in the territories controlled by Israel, and about 4.5 million Arabs. That's why Israel has not annexed Gaza and the West Bank. If it did, it would have to offer citizenship to the Arabs, and that would mean Israel would very shortly have an Arab majority. The Israeli constitution defines Israel as a Jewish state, and that is a central plank of the state. Denying the Jewish character of the state is grounds for barring a candidate for standing or election.
Israel cannot give the Palestinians citizenship. Unfourtunately, by occupying their lands, they prevent the Palestinians achieving citizenship in their own state as well, which leaves the Palestinians in a limbo.
The Palestinians who achieved citizenship in Israel, live in peace. The Palestinians who have been subjected to 38 years of military occupation do not. Draw your own conclusions.
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Funny how they're not citizen's of Egypt or Jordan anymore.
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Originally posted by Suave
Funny how they're not citizen's of Egypt or Jordan anymore.
were they ?
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What most fail to realize is that this is NOT a disput about religion. Anyone who mixes religion into it have some other interest or is a nutcase. The average Iranian wouldn't give a ***** about Palestin, but it's a good distruction goverments like to use.
There are people here locked in a struggle. Why they are here or how they got here is irrelevant, history - facts or fiction is irrelevant, non of them can leave, they have to sort it out one way or another.
Human rights are a noble idea. Unfortunatly it does not survive contant with reality. When it comes down to "it's us or them" the answer is always US! When your life is under real threat, when the life of your family is under threat, you'd cheat, steal and kill to protect it.
Terrorism is not directed against my country, it is not directed against my goverment it is directed against me. They blew up busses I ride and restaurants I eat in. The Palestinians have turned the conflict personal and I care little for their human rights if this is what's needed to protect mine. If they insits on a "my life against theirs" situation, the answer is clear.
Now, after this is said comes logic. I care little for the palestinians but I do care about them. Some sort of an arrangement will have to be reached. Squeezing the palestinians under IDF thumb for Israel's security is not a good long time solution. But first, the Palestinians need to convice the Israelies they will not start exploding again before Israel will be ready to take risks. No one will agree to gamble with his dearests life, and this is why the Israeli public is apathic to the suffering of the palestinians. It is not smart but no one is willing to die for a "lets do this and see what happens" moves. They have to be convince it will work.
Religion has nothing to do with it. They can have every stinking holy stone in this cursed land for all I care. I also dont care if they a muslims jews pagans or satan worshipers.
And for those above who are willing to put money on Israel disabling Iran's nuclear program - save your money.
Bozon
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Sorry I left out Syria in my most recent reply, but I mentioned it earlier.
There's probably a funny story about why such a civilized country such as Syria doesn't want it's people anymore.
When Isreal pushed back the borders of Syria, Egypt and Jordan. The citizens of those countries chose not to withdraw with the borders of their respective countries. And some of them that did were exiled back into the DMZ that Isreal created for herself to help defend herself against her not so neighborly neighbors.
But it's all history anyway, and hanging on to the past isn't going to solve anything. As Dr Phil might say to the neighbors of Isreal, "hows that working out for ya?" If everybody behaved that way, everybody would still be fighing everybody else.
Nothing will make suicide bombing of civilians and saying "Isreal should be wiped off the map" excusable. And it's repulsive to my sense of logic to see, hear and read people trying to rationalize this type of murder and blood lust.
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Originally posted by Suave
. The citizens of those countries chose not to withdraw with the borders of their respective countries.
Can you get in your mind that the native didn't knew the concept of nation or country ?
When your familly as lived on a land during century do you really need and ID card or a paper prooving your property to think it's you land ?
That's a westerner concept.
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Originally posted by straffo
Can you get in your mind that the native didn't knew the concept of nation or country ?
When your familly as lived on a land during century do you really need and ID card or a paper prooving your property to think it's you land ?
That's a westerner concept.
And that's how you're rationalizing it? I guess you're right, it must be the westerner in me that won't let me see the legitimacy of calling people infidels and heathens and blowing them up. Most Isrealis are native born Isrealis now. That's how old the animosities are that their neighbors are using to rationalize murder and ambitions of ethnic cleansing. Or would you prefer that I call them "Jews" ? Because that's really what it's about. Good old dixie ethnic hatred. Isreal's neighbors have treated eachother more barbaricly than Isreal has ever treated any one of them, yet it's the "zionists" that must be wiped from the map. How many Iranians have died because of Isreal? How many Iranians have died because of Iraq?
Don't worry your moral support for your friends over their won't go unrewarded. They'll be cheering in the street when you make the news after having been decapitated or blown up on your way home from work.
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nashwan... the jews are not treating the palestinians all that horribly from what I can see...
I support their restrictions on the palestinians. It is arabs that are causing the problems in their country... to restrict the actions of arabs in their country is logical...
we are not talking about peaceful protests here... we are talking about the difference between daily bombings of groups of men women and children and some semblance of a normal life.
As for gun control? the jews allow their people the most lattitude of any country in owning firearms... I would support their restrictions on arabs tho if the arabs had some sort of arrest record.
What is the chance of a white or jewish person sneaking into the country to cause a suicide bombing in their country? zero? so why not target the groups that are really causing the problem. Why not stop arabs and check em out? Here we do pointless searches of 76 year old white women to prevent bombings of aircaft while allowing the arab in front of her to get on the plane unmolested.... sorry... the jews make more sense.
They don't need to waste resources checking jews or canadians for that matter.. but... all the mad bombers look just like the man in that family picture you so lovingly posted.
lazs
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Originally posted by Krusher
(http://www.arena.org.nz/palteror.GIF)
Ellian Gonzalez?
LOL The INS, I just got it, that's fluff'n funny.
Yeah I'm slow.
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Originally posted by Suave
And that's how you're rationalizing it?
You want to discuss but not in a rational way ?
If so it's not a discussion.
I guess you're right, it must be the westerner in me that won't let me see the legitimacy of calling people infidels and heathens and blowing them up. [/B]
Following your reasoning I guess we were wrong blowing the german during WWII
Most Isrealis are native born Isrealis now. [/B]
Ok I see your reasoning : the more their is Isrealis the more it legitimate is their presence ?
hummmm
Don't worry your moral support for your friends over their won't go unrewarded. They'll be cheering in the street when you make the news after having been decapitated or blown up on your way home from work. [/B]
They are not my friends.
They don't have my support.
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Originally posted by Suave
LOL The INS, I just got it, that's fluff'n funny.
Yeah I'm slow.
(http://www.albertlowe.com/images/elian.jpg)
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Originally posted by Nashwan
Yes, it could. Does it solve any problems?
/B]
It ends the homeland issue.
Not that it matters but the Dead King of Jordan managed to kill thousands of Pals, I doubt the Jordanians want them either.
Jordan news (http://feeds.jordannews.net/?rid=5427bf5f944c8904&cat=a9fba0694eef4824&f=1)
1970: Arab leaders sign Jordan peace deal
King Hussein of Jordan and the leader of the Palestine Liberation Organisation,Yasser Arafat, have agreed a ceasefire after 10 days of bitter civil war in Jordan.
The agreement, signed at an emergency summit in Egypt's capital, Cairo, calls for an immediate ceasefire and withdrawal of all forces from every city in Jordan.
President Nasser accused the royal army of breaking previous ceasefires and of carrying out a plan to annihilate all Palestinian resistance. He described recent attacks on refugee camps in Jordan as a "horrible massacre, contrary to all Arab and human values".
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What makes it especially funny are the similarities in how people tried to use these two photos disingenuously.
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Originally posted by straffo
Following your reasoning I guess we were wrong blowing the german during WWII
.
I'm willing to look past your weird homoeroticism here and give a serious answer. Neither you or I were in WWII. Neither you, I or the Isrealis should be expected to be accountable for things that happened before we were born.
That's as idiotic as an american indian expecting to get land from me because I'm white. Or a mexican expecting that I should give them my land because I'm an american living in Texas.
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It was my intend
Didn't you wanted a good old flame war ?
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Oh yeah, forgot to say this:
Everyone in the region hates the Palestinians. All the arabs around the area just ****in hate them.
BUT everyone there hates the jews even more. So while the Jews are in Israel, all the arab countries around there won't be massacring the palestinians.
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Hello Nashwan,
Finally have a moment to get to some of your other points in your reply to me...
Originally posted by Nashwan
An end to the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, Palestinian sovereignty over East Jerusalem.
Something like, say, The Geneva Accord (unnofical treaty negotiated between Yossi Beilin and Yasser Rabbo)
Or the Saudi peace plan:
Or the roadmap:
Or what about the plan Amos Malka, then head of Israeli military intelligence, advised Ehud Barak that Arafat would accept at Camp David:
Each one of these agreements would ultimately fail because they have no support amongst the bulk of the Palestinian people, regardless of what is negotiated by the leaders of Palestine. And all of the various armed Palestinian groups carrying out the actual attacks within Israel are dedicated not merely to errecting a Palestinian state alongside of Israel, but ultimately to eliminating Israel entirely. Palestine to them extends from Jordan to the Med, and the struggle cannot end until that particular vision is achieved. So ceding various bits and pieces of Israel to the Palestinian authority is not going to stop the violence, quite the opposite in fact.
For instance, Hamas states at the very beginning of their Charter:
" Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors. "
And incidentally, anyone who doesn't believe this is ultimately a religious, rather than political, struggle needs to read the charters of groups like Hamas, especially regarding their ties to the Worldwide Muslim brotherhood and the "universality" of their objectives.
Hamas Charter (http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html)
Now one can negotiate till doomsday, but nothing will deter groups like this from pursuing their final solution to the problem of Israel other than perhaps conversion.
I wouldn't think so now. The last 60 years have created a great deal of bitterness amongst the Palestinians.
Lest we forget, the declaration of Israeli statehood in 1948 led to the almost immediate invasion of all her Arab neighbors, and of course the Palestinians living in the territory chose to either assist those Arab armies or become refugees, the differences between these two sides have been irreconcilable from the very beginning. How does one negotiate a settlement with a group that says essentially, the only solution to the problem is that you cease to exist forever? This is also the reason why we won't be able to negotiate a "peaceful settlement" in the war on terror, which is a fact most Westerners have yet to grasp.
Prior to the establishment of the state of Israel, hundreds of thousands of Jews did live the Arab countries, and seem to have been able to practice their religion.
Hardly, they lived in a state of Dhimmitude (third class citizens, required to pay an additional tax, banned from most government jobs, highly restricted in their ability to own property, etc.), they were forbidden to build new synagogues, and were under the constant threat of expulsion from those countries or worse. As a result of the Muslim revival starting in the late 40s those conditions have progressively worsened. Several states have waged aggressive pogroms, seized synagogues and turned them into Mosques, and tightened restrictions overall and the Jewish populations have dropped precipitously as a result. For instance in Egypt the overall population dropped from 60,000 in the 40s to just 8,000 in 1957 following the election of Nasser, and the massive arrests and confiscations he brought about.
Being a Jew in Muslim countries is about as much fun as being a Christian in Pakistan.
Anyway, two final points:
Israel will never hand over Jerusalem, this is their capitol regardless of the fact that we all pretend its Tel Aviv, and has too much historical significance for Jews to give up. The city of David is a non-negotiable, as is the Temple mount. The Palestinians, on the other hand, will never be happy with just East Jerusalem and they insist on gaining control over the temple mount because of the Dome of Rock. This issue is simply irreconcilable.
As to the idea that terrorism would be reduced if:
A) The Palestinians gained sovereign control over part of Israel: this has historically been shown to be bunk. Every handover has been preceeded and followed by a wave of new attacks. For groups like Islamic Jihad, Fatah, and Hamas these handovers are merely steps towards final victory and make it progressively easier for them to import weapons, build bombs and so on.
The increase in the use of IDF helicopter and jet attacks in the areas under Palestinian control and the inevitable collateral damage that occurs shows another downside of these handovers. It used to be if you wanted to grab the head of Hamas or a bomb making cell in the occupied territories, the IDF could send in a few squads of soldiers. Now since they are under the control of the Palestinians, missles and bombs become the only option. Please note also that when an Israeli bomb kills children, this is collateral damage from another objective, however when Hamas explodes a bomb on a bus filled with civillians (using ball-bearings coated in rat poison to prevent clotting and cause the wounded to bleed out I might add) their objective was to kill those kids - so lets stop comparing police actions to terrorist attacks can we?
B) The Palestinians gained Sovereign Control over all of Israel: Aside from what this would mean to the Jews living there ("Greetings Jews, remember when we said 'Never Again'? Well 'never' turned out to be a shorter period of time than we expected...") Hamas and Islamic Jihad aren't in business simply to remove Israel, just as the Jihadis wouldn't end the Jihad if we left Iraq, they have a greater ideological quest that extends throughout every continent. So the idea that Palestinians would stop the process of Jihad if we gave them a small part of the greater objective is no more logical than saying if we'd just given Hitler a little more Lebensraum he would have abandoned the rest of the Mein Kampf manifesto. Jordanian, Saudi, and Syrian Jihadis all have a sovereign homeland, and yet you'll find them in Chechnya, Kosovo, Macedonia, Afghanistan, the Phillipines, London, and all over the globe divising new ways to blow the infidels up. Hamas merely has the advantage of being able to do it in their own back yard.
Also, from speaking with members of the US military, really the only intelligence group that has been successful in actually infiltrating the terror groups is the Israeli Mossad. They tell me that most of our "on the ground" intel in areas outside of Iraq and Afghanistan has an Israeli connection - especially in countries were our own Intel networks are virtually non-existant, like Iran.
Take out the Mossad, and a lot of those plans and cells that get busted every month are going to playing out in a city near you.
- SEAGOON
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Seagoon;
is your church officially supporting apartheid or is your blind support to the state of Israel your personal opinion?
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If any american... correction.. AMERICAN takes the time to check the following for himself/herself they will come to the same conclusion I did with regards to suitability for continued support for the Israli government.
Question #1: What is the total dollar annual amount for official US Government aid to the government of Israel?
Question #2 What is the total dollar annual amount of un-official US Aid to Israel? (JDL, etc)
Question #3: What is Israel's policy (and track record) regarding sale of US developed and provided Military Equipment to China and North Korea?
Question #4: Are you familiar with the USS Liberty Incident?
Question #5: What is Israel's policy regarding extradition to the US of Criminals wanted in the US for violent crimes committed on US soil?
Question #6: What is Israel's policy and position on espionage committed by offical agencies of the Israli government against American owned buisness and military installations here on US soil?
Considering that Israel is not by ANY strectch of the imagination a 3rd world country, impoverished or starving, how do you square the answers of question #1 and # 2 against the amount of aid provided to bona-fide third world countries with populations facing stavation or eradication by either disease or 'ethnic cleansing'?
#'s 3-4-5-6 should clear up any question of their 'ally' status, at least as far as THEY are concerned in relations with US.
Wake up America. Yer being duped. They play us for chumps.. we just send more money. Time to cut the purse strings.
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What I love about this thread is everyone comes down on or defends Israel because there the "love to hate" country. Iran just gets a shrug that says "what do you expect from Iran"
The only one that every defended Iran was Lada and I think he's gone now or has a shades account. Even he sounded like Baghdad bob when talking about Iran.
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Originally posted by Staga
Seagoon;
is your church officially supporting apartheid or is your blind support to the state of Israel your personal opinion?
Actually, Seagoon seems to have hit it right on the head. Simple facts and statements of truth.
I'm unsure why you consider that "blind" support of the State of Israel.
There will never be a solution to the problem.... best we might hope for is an uneasy truce. And "apartheid" allows the Israeli's to stop at least some of the bombing.
Just because Seagoon happens to know what's what doesn't constitute "blind" support.
You seem to be a bit blinded yourself my friend.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Wake up America. Yer being duped. They play us for chumps.. we just send more money. Time to cut the purse strings.
Is there any chance that it's strategically a sound decision to send support?
One thing I like about you Hang is that you are always right. It's the rest of the planet that's wrong.
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Hello Staga,
Originally posted by Staga
Seagoon;
is your church officially supporting apartheid or is your blind support to the state of Israel your personal opinion?
No, our church and our denomination do not take stands on matters of politics. The opinions I express here on matters outside of religion, are merely my opinions - I do not intend to imply that there is any hint of official sanction to these opinions.
And as far as "blind support" for Israel goes, you've missed my point entirely. I do not support everything the Israeli government or individual Israelis do by any stretch of the imagination. Neither am I a Dispensationalist Christian, who believes Israel must be supported as a religious duty. However, my personal assessment of the situation based on what little I know of world history and in particular the history of Islam through to the present day, as well as my unavoidable contact with the guys actually fighting America's "war on terror" leads me to certain conclusions.
Israel acts as a check on terrorism, if only because they catch a lot of the hatred that would be directed at the West, and in particular Europe and the United States. Sadly, a bomb that goes off in Jerusalem is a bomb that isn't going off in England, the USA, or Baghdad. They are also one of the only countries in the world with the Chutzpah to be willing to simply remove the ability of their Arab neighbors to create Nukes.
I am also under no illusions that a Palestinian state would be a better friend to me or mine than Israel, and having grown up in the crucible of Jihad, such a Palestinian state would almost certainly continue to export, encourage, and nurture it. Even if the state did not do so, groups within the country are not going to stop. Even the Palestinian version of Sesame Street encourages the growth of the Martyr brigades.
I view Israel from the perspective of one who sees us as confronting a resurrgent Islam as the greatest threat to the west since the fall of Communism.
Now I realize that despite the fact that the Jihadist keep telling you via websites, and books, and CDs, and pamphlets, and sermons delivered by Imams, that they will not stop the struggle until the great Satan is defeated and the world is "at Peace" via having one Caliph, one Religion, and one Shariah law, you believe that "if we just give them this concession, and that concession, and withdraw here, and withdraw there, they'll stop the worldwide Jihad and become secular humanists just like us." But I happen to believe that they are serious, and I believe they are sincere when they say they will not stop. Their track record confirms this. They've been at this since 611 AD, and they aren't going to be weened off it by giving them what they want. Historically, only defeating and then forcibly sitting on them "calms" them down for a while, but that methodology is obviously out of favor in the West.
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by SkyWolf
Is there any chance that it's strategically a sound decision to send support?
One thing I like about you Hang is that you are always right. It's the rest of the planet that's wrong.
Sky; my opinions are mine.. and they are merely opinions. BUT, you can usually rest assured that if my opinions run counter to the PC knee jerk tendy yuppie puppie talking head spew most folks puff in their pipes these days that somebody will take the easy way out and take a swipe at the author instead of the data.
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Hmmm ... we need badly a rule #17 to limit the size of a post.
Sorry ,Seagon but it's late (00:30) I'll sleep instead of reading your posts
I'm sure it's interresting but keep in mind that some of your readers (and contradictors ;)) have to translate.
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Originally posted by Seagoon
I view Israel from the perspective of one who sees us as confronting a resurrgent Islam as the greatest threat to the west since the fall of Communism.
Sorry Seagoon, but you should change the word "west" maybe to something like "usa" ?
There are other "west nations" who dont see the religion Islam as a threat,
like you do.
Have you asked yourself why all this hate exist at all?
would it exist without any politics?
would it??
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Originally posted by Nashwan
When you add up the populations, you see that there are just over 5 million Jews in the territories controlled by Israel, and about 4.5 million Arabs. That's why Israel has not annexed Gaza and the West Bank. If it did, it would have to offer citizenship to the Arabs, and that would mean Israel would very shortly have an Arab majority. The Israeli constitution defines Israel as a Jewish state, and that is a central plank of the state. Denying the Jewish character of the state is grounds for barring a candidate for standing or election.
the essence of quagmire. palestine is a contemporary warsaw ghetto.
oh yeah, hang nailed it as well.
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if it weren't for Israel, Iraq would have had nukes and Desert Storm would have turned out much differently
Israel is our guard dog in that cesspool region of the world
It is the only country in that arse backwrds part of the planet that does not want to see the US "wiped off the map"
Now they will take care of Iran. Whatever we pay them, it ain't enough
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Originally posted by Gh0stFT
Sorry Seagoon, but you should change the word "west" maybe to something like "usa" ?
There are other "west nations" who dont see the religion Islam as a threat,
like you do.
Have you asked yourself why all this hate exist at all?
would it exist without any politics?
would it??
Politics aside....I was under the impression that if you aren't a follower of Islam then you are an infidel?
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well gee hang... so ya think the isralei jews are no better than ours? Darn... I was hopeing that they were a different breed. And ya say that we get nothing from them at all? no advantage to having their nation exist? Are we really that gullible? I honestly don't know... I thought that they were an friend in a place of few friends.... I know the muslims aren't gonna love us no matter how many jews we sacrafice to em tho.
I can't help it... I really admire the jews over there... they do great things and are rugged individuals... maybe that is why the socialists hate em... it's why they hate us..
I don't know... I just think that there is a really big anti semetic european contingent on these boards.. Apartheid? well.. I guess maybe somewhat... some even compare it to mean ol south africa... now that south african apartheid is abolished to please the euros.... it is a paradise on earth for the blacks there and.... brits and euros are flocking there to bask in the rightious fairness of it all... I am sure that giving israel to the palestinians will make it the exact same sort of paradise.
I also love this newfound euro "we are not afraid of the muslims" attitude....as they shut their borders and blame their increases in crime and poverty on muslims..
pathetic.
lazs
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Laz, I'm not advocating any anti-semetic policy.. I'm advocating dealing with Israel the way we deal with any other country that steals our technology, puts our servicemen in graves, protects and shields criminals from our courts and takes our money and arms then sells the arms abroad to nations we won't sell arms to directly.
Israel is MORE than capable of dealing with ANY regional military threat. Is there ANY doubt that if Syria or Iran get's jiggy with Israel they can't kick their ass? They are not a third world nation, their economy is as healthy as a horse. We do not need to throw billions into their pockets every year any longer.
Not another dime to Israel untill they extradite criminals wanted to stand trial here. Not another dime until they recall and come clean on their espionage program against US intrests. Not another dime untill they cease selling arms to nations on our 'proscibed' list. Not another dime untill they pay the license fees for technology stolen from US firms. Not another dime untill they issue a complete accounting and apology for the USS Liberty and pay reparations to the families of the deceased.
It's past time to end the free ride.
Military support, mutual treaties covering national integrity and security? I'm all for it. Letting them get away with spying here, harboring criminals, stealing our technology and selling the arms we give them as part of aid packages abroad to other nations.. nope. They're screwin' us.. time we called 'em on it and closed down the all you can steal buffet.
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So I guess this means we'll be going to war with Iran next?
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(http://drdigits.home.comcast.net/BaghdadBob.JPG)
These are outrageous lies. Iran is a peacefull place, I golf there twice a month. I was just telling Osam errr osaba how much I enjoy the kabob when I'm here. Yes we have our differences with Israel but we don't want it "wiped off the map" no we would just like the entire country to move about 50 to say 70 miles to the west. That's all. Big mis-understanding.
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Ahmadinejad comments were made during a meeting with protesting students at Iran's Interior Ministry.
He quoted a remark from Ayatollah Khomeini, founder of Iran's Islamic revolution, that Israel "must be wiped out from the map of the world."
The president then said: "And God willing, with the force of God behind it, we shall soon experience a world without the United States and Zionism," according to a quote published by Iran's state news outlet, the Islamic Republic News Agency.
Source: http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/10/27/ahmadinejad.reaction/index.html
This is gonna get good.
Karaya
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
The president then said: "And God willing, with the force of God behind it, we shall soon experience a world without the United States and Zionism," according to a quote published by Iran's state news outlet, the Islamic Republic News Agency.
Source: http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/10/27/ahmadinejad.reaction/index.html
This is gonna get good.
Karaya [/B]
Well, then either they got spaceships and a nice spot picked out on Mars or we're the ones expected to take the road trip....
I wonder how many times Bush and Rummy have explored this option? "Don, wouldn't the mideast be a heluva lot better off without all those damn mullahs runnin around on the ground....heneheheh"
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:rofl :rofl :aok
You crack me up bud. So true.
Karaya
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Originally posted by SkyWolf
Well....THAT has to be the most reliable, unbiased, and respected "news" source ever cited (well...short of the Stormfront anyway).
If any of the incidents of Jewish terrorism listed on that page I linked too are bogus.. point them out.
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Each one of these agreements would ultimately fail because they have no support amongst the bulk of the Palestinian people, regardless of what is negotiated by the leaders of Palestine.
Says who?
There was overwhelming Palestinian support for the Oslo process in it's early years when it actually looked to be going somewhere.
Even now, opinion polls amongst the Palestinians show support for a two state solution at 50%, a bi-national state (power sharing) at nearly 30%, with less than 20% of Palestinians supporting a single Palestinian or Islamic state in the area.
And all of the various armed Palestinian groups carrying out the actual attacks within Israel are dedicated not merely to errecting a Palestinian state alongside of Israel, but ultimately to eliminating Israel entirely.
No, they're not. The largest single group, Fatah, is dedicated to a to state solution. It's mainly the Islamic groups that are committed to overthrowing Israel, and even then there is some flexibility in their opposition.
And incidentally, anyone who doesn't believe this is ultimately a religious, rather than political, struggle needs to read the charters of groups like Hamas, especially regarding their ties to the Worldwide Muslim brotherhood and the "universality" of their objectives.
And Hamas has about 20% support amongst the Palestinians in national issues. They do better in local elections, due to the corruption in the PA and HAmas's charity work, but in national elections and opinion polls, Hamas are a minority party. Support for Islamic parties amongst the Palestinians, even now after years of war, is still at less than 30%
Lest we forget, the declaration of Israeli statehood in 1948 led to the almost immediate invasion of all her Arab neighbors,
And the declaration of Israeli statehood was preceeded by a military campaign to sieze as much of Palestine as possible.
If the Muslims came and started to conquer Canada, would you call for the US to intervene?
Hardly, they lived in a state of Dhimmitude (third class citizens, required to pay an additional tax, banned from most government jobs, highly restricted in their ability to own property, etc.) they were forbidden to build new synagogues, and were under the constant threat of expulsion from those countries or worse.
At least one fact should be easy to check, the synagogue building:
A positive development was the announcement that a Cairo synagogue built in 1934, which had been closed because so few Jews remain in Egypt, would be reopened in July 2005.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/egjews.html
Nearby the community center is Roben Ben Sadoun Synagogue. Built in the 1920's, it is decorated with exquisite plaster carving reminiscent of the decoration of traditional mosques and medersas. It is large by the standards of Morocco, where every rich Jewish family desired its own synagogue.
http://rickgold.home.mindspring.com/page17.html
Judging from the current state of the building it was probably erected sometime in the second half of the 19th century replacing earlier structures. The synagogue is mentioned in the early 16th century when it was destroyed during a Spanish military expedition to Djerba and reconstructed later in the same century. Like some other synagogues in Djerba, the El Ghriba is located in the proximity of an ancient Jewish cemetery. The El Ghriba has an inner courtyard surrounded by covered loggias build on arches and columns. The adjacent buildings served as accommodation for the pilgrims, the earlier one was erected at the end of the 19th century and it was followed by a second structure built in the early 1950's.
http://www.bh.org.il/Communities/Synagogue/Djerba.asp
For instance in Egypt the overall population dropped from 60,000 in the 40s to just 8,000 in 1957 following the election of Nasser, and the massive arrests and confiscations he brought about.
Do you think that might have anything to do with the fact that Israel tried to sieze Sinai a couple of times, and organised terrorist attacks against British and US targets in Egypt, and tried to blame them on the Egyptians?
Or on the fact that Israel was a growing economy that was happy to welcome Jews, and that by emigrating they'd have a much higher standard of living?
Israel will never hand over Jerusalem, this is their capitol regardless of the fact that we all pretend its Tel Aviv, and has too much historical significance for Jews to give up.
Well, we shall see. I note that even Alan Derschowitz, who's support for Israel is so strong he advocated torture just because Israel does it, has now come out in favour of the division of Jerusalem.
When it comes down to it, and Israel is faced with peace and half of Jerusalem, or isolation, intifada III and all of Jerusalem, I think they will choose the right option.
The Palestinians, on the other hand, will never be happy with just East Jerusalem and they insist on gaining control over the temple mount because of the Dome of Rock. This issue is simply irreconcilable.
Hardly. Barak in his final days came close to accepting a compromise on this. Malka's advice above was that the issue was reconcilable.
The Palestinians gained sovereign control over part of Israel: this has historically been shown to be bunk. Every handover has been preceeded and followed by a wave of new attacks.
Like the withdrawal from southern Lebanon?
For groups like Islamic Jihad, Fatah, and Hamas these handovers are merely steps towards final victory and make it progressively easier for them to import weapons, build bombs and so on.
Of course. Just like Hezbollah.
But the truth is, once Israel withdraws, the local people have more to lose from restarting the war. The occupied have nothing to lose.
Hezbollah still hates Israel. But it knows any attacks on Israel will be met with massive response, and so it behaves. Just as North Korea hates the south and the US, but doesn't attack them.
It's called deterrence.
The increase in the use of IDF helicopter and jet attacks in the areas under Palestinian control and the inevitable collateral damage that occurs shows another downside of these handovers. It used to be if you wanted to grab the head of Hamas or a bomb making cell in the occupied territories, the IDF could send in a few squads of soldiers.
Or drop a bomb on an apartment block, or leave a booby trap outside a refugee camp. If you think Isreli air strikes and shelling are new, you haven't been paying attention these last few years.
Now since they are under the control of the Palestinians, missles and bombs become the only option. Please note also that when an Israeli bomb kills children, this is collateral damage from another objective, however when Hamas explodes a bomb on a bus filled with civillians (using ball-bearings coated in rat poison to prevent clotting and cause the wounded to bleed out I might add) their objective was to kill those kids - so lets stop comparing police actions to terrorist attacks can we?
I never have. But I reconise that war kills civilians. And anybody who embarks on it wilfully, for example someone who decides to build a settlement on occupied territory, and station his army there to protect it, is choosing a path he knows will result in civilian deaths.
Seagoon;
is your church officially supporting apartheid or is your blind support to the state of Israel your personal opinion?
There is a growing movement amongst US protestant church groups to divesment from Israel. The main Presbyterian church in the US, for example, has begun an active campaign of divestment, and is targetting certain companies in the US.
There will never be a solution to the problem.... best we might hope for is an uneasy truce. And "apartheid" allows the Israeli's to stop at least some of the bombing.
The problem is, the apartheid is being practiced not in Israel, but in the occupied territories. It's not designed to protect people in Israel, it's designed to protect and ease the lives of Israeli settlers, who are in the occupied territories illegally.
So the roads are closed to Palestinians in the West Bank to protect the settlers, their fields are off limits to them because the settlers have built an outpost nearby, their market is closed in Hebron to allow the Jewish settlement to expand, their water is cut off because the settlers need it for their fruit trees.
It's nothing to do with security, it's to do with enforcing supremacy.
As the Haaretz settlement correspondent put it:
"We are not talking of colonialism. The morality of "settlement" after 1967, is equivalent to the morality of settling the land after 1948. Morally, historically and religiously, the right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel, takes precedence over the right of other peoples here. The internal dispute within Israel is over what is possible within the framework of the security and international reality that the country faces."
That sort of mindset is the underlying reason for the apartheid in the West Bank.
Israel acts as a check on terrorism, if only because they catch a lot of the hatred that would be directed at the West, and in particular Europe and the United States.
Israel generates a lot of the hatred that is directed against the west. Every time they kill a Palestinian, demolish their homes etc, it generates more hatred against Israel, and against the west that supports Israel.
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Sadly, a bomb that goes off in Jerusalem is a bomb that isn't going off in England, the USA, or Baghdad.
That is utter rubbish.
The idea that the terrorists of the West Bank, who live under Israeli occupation and truly hate it, would suddenly transfer that hatred, with an equal level of motivation, to Britain or the US is absurd.
By the same token, every bomber in Iraq would otherwise be exploding in London or New York now. How amazingly prescient of Bush and Blair to know just when this massive wave of suicide bombing was about to start, and invade Iraq in the week preceeding it.
They are also one of the only countries in the world with the Chutzpah to be willing to simply remove the ability of their Arab neighbors to create Nukes.
The other of course being Iran, who joined in the Israeli operations against the Iraqi nuclear programme.
Now I realize that despite the fact that the Jihadist keep telling you via websites, and books, and CDs, and pamphlets, and sermons delivered by Imams, that they will not stop the struggle until the great Satan is defeated and the world is "at Peace" via having one Caliph, one Religion, and one Shariah law, you believe that "if we just give them this concession, and that concession, and withdraw here, and withdraw there, they'll stop the worldwide Jihad and become secular humanists just like us."
Seagoon, I think your total committment to religion has blinded you to the fact that not everyone else is the same. Certainly many others in the world share your committment, such as the Jihadis you mention. But most people just want to get on with their lives, and make things better. Most people, when offered an end to war on good terms, leap at it. Most people are more concerned with earth than heaven.
well gee hang... so ya think the isralei jews are no better than ours? Darn... I was hopeing that they were a different breed.
I don't know... I just think that there is a really big anti semetic european contingent on these boards.
Those statements were made by the same person.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Not another dime to Israel untill they extradite criminals wanted to stand trial here. Not another dime until they recall and come clean on their espionage program against US intrests. Not another dime untill they cease selling arms to nations on our 'proscibed' list. Not another dime untill they pay the license fees for technology stolen from US firms. Not another dime untill they issue a complete accounting and apology for the USS Liberty and pay reparations to the families of the deceased.
Funny :)
Americans like you think you own Israel just because you throw a few bucks at it. Israel will be far better off if this support would be significantly cut off, as I explained in several past posts. Then we see amreicans saying "let Israel deal with the Iranians" as if Israel would love to do america's dirty work.
The US goverment is pouring money into it's own military and other industries, just indirectly so the american public would not object. If anyone is stealing technology from someone it is the US from Israel, not the other way around. The "aid"-"money" is the bane of Israel's technology industry. It is holding it back from competing with US industries. In almost any major project related to defence, the US is quick to chip in with finance "support" so later it can veto it's sales, have rights to the technology and develop their own product. Another method is the requirement that the product will be produced in the US - giving jobs to americans and unemployment in Israel, plus these trained workers will carry on their knoledge to american industry.
Radars and sensors, night vision and especially un-maned planes are technologies constantly ripped of from Israel by the US by the above mentioned method. Israel cannot mass sell its products making it more expensive the the american competition. The US goverment defines everything as "arms" from software to radars. I'm sure that if an high efficiency irrigation system would be developed in the US, Israel would be restricted in selling their own as well because it is used to grow tomatos for hostile nations.
and don't fool yourself that the US is not spying on Israel. US Intel ships (as your favorite USS Liberty) and planes are common here and I'm sure that some of the regular U2 missions from Cyprus to check the "cease fire agreements" between Israel and it's neighbours are used for other purposes as well. I happen to be familiar with several other "leaks" or military info to the amricans before operations.
and finally, part of the legal problem of extraditing criminals to the US is due to your death penalty. Oh you barbarians! :)
btw, Israel is strongly against any oficial military pact with the US. It is much more likely that the US drags Israel into war than the opposite.
I hope that paints the picture in slightly different colors.
Bozon
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Originally posted by bozon
Funny :)
Americans like you think you own Israel just because you throw a few bucks at it. Israel will be far better off if this support would be significantly cut off, as I explained in several past posts. Then we see amreicans saying "let Israel deal with the Iranians" as if Israel would love to do america's dirty work.
Funny, the way I read it is hangtimes saying Israel can do what it likes, but if it wants the $$$ it needs to get into line.
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Originally posted by bozon
Bozon
You missed the boat Captain Stuebbing.
Karaya
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Originally posted by bozon
Funny :)
Americans like you think you own Israel just because you throw a few bucks at it. Israel will be far better off if this support would be significantly cut off, as I explained in several past posts. Then we see amreicans saying "let Israel deal with the Iranians" as if Israel would love to do america's dirty work.
I hope that paints the picture in slightly different colors.
Bozon
Of course you'll see the situtaion through Israeli Colored Glasses.
Lemme put it to the citizens of Israel a different way...
"You mooching thankless little salamanders have been caught stealing, spying, lying and harboring criminals.. time for you to get the hell outta my wallet. This is the thanks we get for standing by you, nurturing you, giving you the tools and education to compete in the world... you rob us blind, defy our wishes, attack us behind our backs. Fine. No more free ride. You pay your own way. If you get in a bind and need help, let us know, but your welcome here has been long worn out."
Bozon, like the above aggreived parent, we do not wish you ill, and look upon you with pride in some of your accomplishments... however we are not charmed by the return on the investment and feel you have gone way past just taking advantage of us.. you are abusing and disrespecting us.
Your Nation is more than capable of making it's own way in your part of the world, and we'd just as soon stop seeing our money and efforts used against our intrests.
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Masherbrum, that was not a whine that was truth. If you didn't get it, I'm begging the US to start cutting back on the aid and stop the bear hugging. It's like a crack addict begging the dealer to stop giving him free crack so he can try to rehab. So don't think I'm ungrateful whiner.
Hangtime, the intention of the US is not to harm Israel but to support US interests. Always has been. In other words, US gov sees foreign aid as an american interest. The wellfare of the US is the 1st priority of every US goverment - the trouble is that it sometimes screws other countries. Most of the world perceives that as american arrogance and that's the reason the US scores so high on popularity poles.
The fact that the aid continues means that the US gov still thinks it gains something out of it - that is the US gains, not Israel. Israeli interest is to gradually not accept it.
Bozon
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Originally posted by Hangtime
I wonder how many times Bush and Rummy have explored this option? "Don, wouldn't the mideast be a heluva lot better off without all those damn mullahs runnin around on the ground....heneheheh"
I've always wondered why we didn't take care of them after the hostage situation.
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Originally posted by Excel1
If any of the incidents of Jewish terrorism listed on that page I linked too are bogus.. point them out.
It's the spin. Not exactly unbiased reporting.
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It occurs to me that the situation cannot be solved on this board for the same reasons it can't be solved in the Middle East. Alll sides are firmly entrenched and unable/unwilling to compromise in any significant way. Go figure. I wonder if this thread will go on for decades.
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Originally posted by bozon
Masherbrum, that was not a whine that was truth. If you didn't get it, I'm begging the US to start cutting back on the aid and stop the bear hugging. It's like a crack addict begging the dealer to stop giving him free crack so he can try to rehab. So don't think I'm ungrateful whiner.
Hangtime, the intention of the US is not to harm Israel but to support US interests. Always has been. In other words, US gov sees foreign aid as an american interest. The wellfare of the US is the 1st priority of every US goverment - the trouble is that it sometimes screws other countries. Most of the world perceives that as american arrogance and that's the reason the US scores so high on popularity poles.
The fact that the aid continues means that the US gov still thinks it gains something out of it - that is the US gains, not Israel. Israeli interest is to gradually not accept it.
Bozon
"gradually"?? How about goin cold turkey?
"US scores low on popularity polls?" Regardless of our continued support and aid for you guys we can ALWAYS rest assured that Israel will score lower than us on those same polls.
Lastly, mutual aid and support is supposed to benifit both sides. Interesting how you see it differently.
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Originally posted by SkyWolf
I've always wondered why we didn't take care of them after the hostage situation.
Yah. Me too. I was very much in favor of turning Tehran into a glass lined crater with a plaque to the 52 American Martyrs to Freedom installed in the center of it.
Thanks to the 'kindler, gentler' approach we took, millions have perished in the region since.
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hang..I see your point. since we are giving them so much we really should demand more of em... I am not sure that they could hold the region without our help tho. I am with you on demanding the things you spoke of or cutting off funds.. I don't understand why we don't if we indeed hold all the cards.
nashwan... two statements about jews (well three) that I made you seem to find contracictory whereas I do not.
yourop eans (and some wanna be peans) have a very large anti semite contingent represented by many on these boards.
This is true and obvious...
next, that I admire the individualist and ruggedness and get it done attitude of the israel jew... his toughness...
This is obvious and true..
next... I do not like the way American jews are...
This would seem to put me in the same category as the youropeans and wanna be peans.
I don't think so... I think that it is obvious that I admire jews like JPFO (jews for the preservation of firearms ownership) a very constitutional and tough group...but... stats show that jews, allmost more than any other group in the U.S. vote socialist liberal... they have all the worst attributes of liberals here.... I don't believe that we are even talking about the same people... much like Americans that threw out the brits. I think that Israelis would be embarrassed by the majority of American jews.... I know I am.
lazs
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I don't understand why we don't if we indeed hold all the cards.
Laz, the Jewish community in this country holds an immense amount of media and political clout. Those same guys you and I are disgusted with here hold the checkbooks that underwrite the political landscape here. If a politician started talking cutting funding or getting tough with israel he'd be signing his own death warrant in politics.
To get this dealt with will take a grass roots movement.. the people need to speak out. Not surpisingly, there will be no media outcry on the subject.. guess who's holding the controlling interests in the media.
In our country there is supposed to be a seperation between church and state.. in israel there a IS a national religion. And dedicated folks of that religious persuasion in this country are rather rabid in their pursuit of continued open arm support from our pockets to israels pockets.
Bad deal for the citizens here.. they stay in the catbird seat, pulling the wool over our eyes while they rob us blind behind our backs.
Again.. I'm not anti-semetic. But I guarantee you I'll be labeled as one for this post because thats how the jewish community deals with anyone that speaks out against the underhanded and highly questionable aid relationship between the US and Israel.
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Originally posted by bozon
Masherbrum, that was not a whine that was truth. If you didn't get it, I'm begging the US to start cutting back on the aid and stop the bear hugging. It's like a crack addict begging the dealer to stop giving him free crack so he can try to rehab. So don't think I'm ungrateful whiner.
Hangtime, the intention of the US is not to harm Israel but to support US interests. Always has been. In other words, US gov sees foreign aid as an american interest. The wellfare of the US is the 1st priority of every US goverment - the trouble is that it sometimes screws other countries. Most of the world perceives that as american arrogance and that's the reason the US scores so high on popularity poles.
The fact that the aid continues means that the US gov still thinks it gains something out of it - that is the US gains, not Israel. Israeli interest is to gradually not accept it.
Bozon
Iran has done something that the rest of the world will not forget. Remember this.
Karaya
PS - I can read, do read and did read. Your post was basically Hitler saying "We're winning this war" (after D-Day). Tell that crap to yourself.
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For those of you who think Iran's statements were just for effect, the President of Iran backed it up again.
http://apnews.excite.com/article/20051028/D8DH7BI82.html
Iran's ultraconservative president - spurning international outrage over his remarks about Israel - joined more than a million demonstrators who flooded the streets of the capital and other major cities Friday to back his call for the destruction of the Jewish state.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad stood fast behind his assertion that Israel should be wiped off the map and repeated the call during the nationwide protests Friday, the Muslim day of prayer.
... 200,000 Iranians who massed in Tehran to unleashed virulent condemnation against Israel, the United States and the West in general, accusing them of oppressing Palestinians and Iran.
Some demonstrators chanted "Israel is approaching its death" and wore white shrouds in a symbolic gesture expressing readiness to die for their cause.
A resolution was read at the end of the rallies backing "the position declared by the president that the Zionist regime must be wiped out."
Iranian Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki defended his president's comments, saying they represented Iran's long-held policy of not recognizing Israel.
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Ok hang... I will take your word for it. I still think that they are worth supporting and that they would go under without our backing.
Of all the nations in the area... they are the only one that I admire.
and, like seagoon... I can't help but feel that they are taking the heat. I can't help but feel that they are the lightning rod. If they were gone I feel that the muslims who believe in a one world/muslim world view would concentrate all their efforts on us.
I also don't see how a politician explaining that he wanted to sanction israel if they didn't turn over prisoners or whatever wouldn't be greeted with... "that sounds fair" by the American people.
canada does the same... they don't extridite the worst sociopaths ever known to mankind and we don't do anything to them. If it were up to me... I would send soldiers to take prisoners from em. If canadians died protecting that scum.... so be it. Same for israel.
lazs
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I absolutely support the right of Israel to exist and would in no way object to any and all means of US support including direct armed military support on their behalf, at the drop of a hat.
However.. bear in mind that Israel has Nukes. Tactical and Strategic. If it looks to them like they are going down they will not wait for us to bail 'em out, they WILL use 'em.
And I will not shed a single tear for whoever was dumb enough to get then to push the button.
Meanwhile, that little nation of stalwart zionists has a superb military force, a crack airforce and the smarts to keep it the very best in the region.
Even without our 'aid'.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
What I love about this thread is everyone comes down on or defends Israel because there the "love to hate" country. Iran just gets a shrug that says "what do you expect from Iran"
The only one that every defended Iran was Lada and I think he's gone now or has a shades account. Even he sounded like Baghdad bob when talking about Iran.
LOL i were just reading news today and i were telling myself....
" hey dude you didnt check AH board for quite a long time, lets see reactions around the world"...
so im here ...
What i found funny is fact, our lovely western media just took personal view of some
journalist and forward it as optinion of pres. of IRI.
Im also quite surprise that even with sutch strong press coverage many people here stood calm.
But here is result of my small research. Im lazy to google again for links, coz it took me some 3-4 hours to find.
Whats has happan is, that president at some "World without Zionism" conference quoted mr. Komeini (damm im not sure about spelling of his name, guys who kicked corrupted shaah and his mickey mouse friends fom iran at 79) .. this Imam Komeini said "Saddam Hussein and his communist regime will be destroyed and Israel as well"... Or he said something very close to this meaning. And what happen at the conference is, that current president said.: **founder of IRI said, that "Saddam Hussein and his communist regime will be destroyed and Israel as well".Saddam is gone now, so Israel would be gone as well. ** Later on in his speach, he compliment palestine people.
So basicaly for those who wanted him to say... "delete palestine from the map" he said it
Those who wanted to hear " we are developing WMD and we are going to nuke hell out of you" he said it.
And those who wanted point finger at him/his country and say " look he support terrorist" also did it.
But true is, that non of sources of those who made allegation is available. At least not with words, whitch has been put into his mouth in western media.
Btw Gunslider.. im not here to defend Iran , im here to blame stupid lames, who read 1 news paper every day for 30 years and they belice to have an excelent overview.
And one more interesting point about this event. From the bigging it seems to be a huge mistage by president of IRI. Or at least it was present in this way in many western media. But latest disclaimers from an Iranian ambasadors around the world seems to be very well prepared and they bring constructive critic of Israel. That might be a reason, why you will never read on front page and you will keep reading "Iran to wipe off Israel" for next 2 weeks.
:noid
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Hardly, they lived in a state of Dhimmitude (third class citizens, required to pay an additional tax, banned from most government jobs, highly restricted in their ability to own property, etc.), they were forbidden to build new synagogues, and were under the constant threat of expulsion from those countries or worse. As a result of the Muslim revival starting in the late 40s those conditions have progressively worsened. Several states have waged aggressive pogroms, seized synagogues and turned them into Mosques, and tightened restrictions overall and the Jewish populations have dropped precipitously as a result. For instance in Egypt the overall population dropped from 60,000 in the 40s to just 8,000 in 1957 following the election of Nasser, and the massive arrests and confiscations he brought about.
Being a Jew in Muslim countries is about as much fun as being a Christian in Pakistan.
Well may i ask ... how many times have you been in pakistan and how many Jews did you visit in muslim country ?
It might be usefull if you name all those evil countries, who siezed synagogs.
Let me tell you little secret about 40`s.... even here in central/eastern europe population of jews droped... a littla bit.... umm no we werent muslims at that time.
And one more hint about Egypt... If you consider Egepts's confiscations so BAAAAd thing.. do you even know what we has done to half germen who used to live here after 1945 ?..
ohh damm .. so many questions... :rolleyes:
( btw i recall one case where synagog has been demolished and hospital has been build on its place.... it has been done few decades ago... do you know country/town ? :) )
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Originally posted by Hangtime
I absolutely support the right of Israel to exist and would in no way object to any and all means of US support including direct armed military support on their behalf, at the drop of a hat.
However.. bear in mind that Israel has Nukes. Tactical and Strategic. If it looks to them like they are going down they will not wait for us to bail 'em out, they WILL use 'em.
Absolutly agree...
actualy ... why nobody reported those religion fanatics to UN security council for sanctions?
:O
Anyway hows nuclear deal with India ?
Did congress already change law, so US can export military arsenal and some nuclear know-how to India ?
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Originally posted by lada
LOL i were just reading news today and i were telling myself....
" hey dude you didnt check AH board for quite a long time, lets see reactions around the world"...
so im here ...
What i found funny is fact, our lovely western media just took personal view of some
journalist and forward it as optinion of pres. of IRI.
Im also quite surprise that even with sutch strong press coverage many people here stood calm.
But here is result of my small research. Im lazy to google again for links, coz it took me some 3-4 hours to find.
Whats has happan is, that president at some "World without Zionism" conference quoted mr. Komeini (damm im not sure about spelling of his name, guys who kicked corrupted shaah and his mickey mouse friends fom iran at 79) .. this Imam Komeini said "Saddam Hussein and his communist regime will be destroyed and Israel as well"... Or he said something very close to this meaning. And what happen at the conference is, that current president said.: **founder of IRI said, that "Saddam Hussein and his communist regime will be destroyed and Israel as well".Saddam is gone now, so Israel would be gone as well. ** Later on in his speach, he compliment palestine people.
So basicaly for those who wanted him to say... "delete palestine from the map" he said it
Those who wanted to hear " we are developing WMD and we are going to nuke hell out of you" he said it.
And those who wanted point finger at him/his country and say " look he support terrorist" also did it.
But true is, that non of sources of those who made allegation is available. At least not with words, whitch has been put into his mouth in western media.
Btw Gunslider.. im not here to defend Iran , im here to blame stupid lames, who read 1 news paper every day for 30 years and they belice to have an excelent overview.
And one more interesting point about this event. From the bigging it seems to be a huge mistage by president of IRI. Or at least it was present in this way in many western media. But latest disclaimers from an Iranian ambasadors around the world seems to be very well prepared and they bring constructive critic of Israel. That might be a reason, why you will never read on front page and you will keep reading "Iran to wipe off Israel" for next 2 weeks.
:noid
So I guess this is must more western lies then?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad (search) stood fast behind his assertion that Israel should be wiped off the map and repeated the call during the nationwide protests Friday, the Muslim day of prayer.
Iranians Rally Against Israel, U.S. (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,173784,00.html)
Edit and before you bring up the news source:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9823624/
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/10/28/iran.reaction/index.html
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/IRAN_ISRAEL?SITE=NJMOR&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/524D8D2D-1EED-4F0D-9A03-511EFAB49166.htm
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(http://www.palmpaints.com/soldier.jpg)
I can photoshop Saddam dancing with Shirley Temple and
Stepin Fetchit.
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Dont worry, Gina Davis will kikk some persian butt
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Originally posted by SkyWolf
It's the spin. Not exactly unbiased reporting.
It's a list of historic events supported with dates, locations, perpetrators and victims. If it was an opinion piece subject to bias I would not have posted it, for the simple reason that in the Israeli/Palestinian issue I don't support one side or the other.
But as for the over all tone of that website ie spin, I think you do have a point.
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again Iran is ignored and israel is talked about. I love this quote: (note: before you ask me for the source this is from Al Jazera english version)
At the same time, however, Iran's embassy in Moscow has sought to smooth the effects of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's comments, saying the president did not mean to speak in such "sharp terms".
The statement was the first official Iranian reaction since the president's speech on Wednesday to a meeting of consevative Islamic students.
"Mr Ahmadinejad did not have any intention to speak up in such sharp terms and enter into a conflict"
"It's absolutely clear that, in his remarks, Mr Ahmadinejad, president of the Islamic Republic of Iran, underlined the key position of Iran, based on the necessity to hold free elections on the occupied territories."
can you say back pedeling? Lada, comments?
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Originally posted by Seagoon
I view Israel from the perspective of one who sees us as confronting a resurrgent Islam as the greatest threat to the west since the fall of Communism.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry Seagoon, but you should change the word "west" maybe to something like "usa" ?
There are other "west nations" who dont see the religion Islam as a threat,
like you do.
Have you asked yourself why all this hate exist at all?
would it exist without any politics?
would it??
Whether you do, or do not think that Islam is a threat to the western world is irrelevant to whether or not it IS a threat to the western world.
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I think it will boil down to a war between christianity and islam. This war has been going on and off for a thousand years now. The BIG difference is the recently aquired ability to split atoms. I would much pefer that militant islam be incinerated by such methods BEFORE militant islam aquires the same capability as the west (aka Christianity). Its like a ball game. Someone will win and someone will lose. It all depends on what team your on.
face it. this aint the cold war with the soviet union. This war it will be hot and you will either burn or get burned, which would you prefer?
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Whether you do, or do not think that Islam is a threat to the western world is irrelevant to whether or not it IS a threat to the western world.
WHAT threat??? you talk about something dumb politicians have said,
what have this to do with the whole Islam?
How many muslims live inside the usa? If the Islam is a threat to you,
you should start to do something against it, no? please explain.
Have fun.
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Maybe they should build concentration camps and put them in; obviously they're a threat to citizens and the country.
hmmm where have I heard that before?
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
So I guess this is must more western lies then?
No thats just another personal view of some journalist, who explain to you, what he has concluded from his speach.
Actualy NBC`s link, whitch you posted seems to support my version.
Note that non of main stram media posted original quotation.
Its very likely that first media reported BS ( and in this case i think it was BBC) and all other copied their version as cool sensation.
About so called "anti israel demonstration" ... This event have 2 names in media.
One of them is "To show pro-Palestinian support" , second name is "anti israel demonstration". First name they use in IRI and second name is used only by foreigner media.
And yes there is a little more of freedom of speach in Iran that you have in your or my country probably. Well i think i can still shout Dead to USA on the street, but im not sure about Israel.
Staga: We have 21st. be more creative.... if you will rename them to "re-education" camps and broadcast some nice pictures about, i guess that many taxpayers will not mind to fund them :D
Im just wondering that nobody comment on my reply to Hangtime.
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Originally posted by lada
Well i think i can still shout Dead to USA on the street, but im not sure about Israel.
You can shout Dead to USA on the street in Israel as well. :)
You can actually shout anything you like, the police here just won't bother with it even if it was not allowed...
Bozon
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Originally posted by bozon
You can shout Dead to USA on the street in Israel as well. :)
You can actually shout anything you like, the police here just won't bother with it even if it was not allowed...
Bozon
LOL muhehee .. i see that police have some similarities all around world :D
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Well... short of africans (and they are no threat to us)... every trouble spot in the world seems to have one thing in common.... muslims..
maybe they are the "bad muslims" and maybe by far they are the minority but... for such a few... they seem to really stir up a lot of trouble round the world..
the russians have their problems with em.... boznia is no paradise with em... even england is having it's problems when they let em in.
China is huge and powerful but they have no religion or doctrine that says only the chineese have a right to survive... they only threaten the isles at wall mart.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
China is huge and powerful but they have no religion or doctrine that says only the chineese have a right to survive... they only threaten the isles at wall mart.
lazs
because Chinese gave autonomy to muslims, while russia is trying to keep them as part of russia by force.
However i have question for you. Did you ever ask, why this problems didnt came out before Slovenia declared independence ? ( i mean problems around former yugoslavia )
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Originally posted by lada
No thats just another personal view of some journalist, who explain to you, what he has concluded from his speach.
Actualy NBC`s link, whitch you posted seems to support my version.
Note that non of main stram media posted original quotation.
Its very likely that first media reported BS ( and in this case i think it was BBC) and all other copied their version as cool sensation.
About so called "anti israel demonstration" ... This event have 2 names in media.
One of them is "To show pro-Palestinian support" , second name is "anti israel demonstration". First name they use in IRI and second name is used only by foreigner media.
And yes there is a little more of freedom of speach in Iran that you have in your or my country probably. Well i think i can still shout Dead to USA on the street, but im not sure about Israel.
Staga: We have 21st. be more creative.... if you will rename them to "re-education" camps and broadcast some nice pictures about, i guess that many taxpayers will not mind to fund them :D
Im just wondering that nobody comment on my reply to Hangtime.
so it's your contention that the ENTIRE WORLD PRESS corps got it wrong......the only view I think I didn't post was the BBC and I'm pretty sure they arent "opinionizing" his speech either.
Dang lada you'd give baghdad bob a run for his money.....you should look into a new career.
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Since those agencies buy news from each other and all of them posted same formulation, but non of them posted original quotation, i would say, that someone generated BS and rest of them copied it. Some of them were reffering to the same, non-existing source.
Btw BBC were refering to non-existing source as well.
Or at least i didnt find anything like that at the place, where they found it.
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Originally posted by lada
Since those agencies buy news from each other and all of them posted same formulation, but non of them posted original quotation, i would say, that someone generated BS and rest of them copied it. Some of them were reffering to the same, non-existing source.
Btw BBC were refering to non-existing source as well.
Or at least i didnt find anything like that at the place, where they found it.
so you are saying planet earth's press corps (to include Al Jazera) got it wrong.....even the second day when Iran's president defended his alegedly misquoted remarks by planet earth's press? Woa you really got baghdad bob beat :O
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Originally posted by lada
(http://drdigits.home.comcast.net/BaghdadBob.JPG)
These are outrageous lies. The entire planets news services are spreading more lies again Yes iran may it's differences with Israel but doesn't want it "wiped off the map" no we would just like the entire country to move about 50 to say 70 miles to the west. That's all. Big mis-understanding.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
so you are saying planet earth's press corps (to include Al Jazera) got it wrong.....even the second day when Iran's president defended his alegedly misquoted remarks by planet earth's press? Woa you really got baghdad bob beat :O
Ok ... post me those quotes.... please.
Those who everybody explaining and nobody post them.
I will appriciate if material, whitch you will post as his quote will start with capital latter and will be ended by a dot. Rather that 4 words from the middle of something.
Happy googling. I manage to find in just at 1 news in past 3 days.
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"Mr Ahmadinejad did not have any intention to speak up in such sharp terms and enter into a conflict" -Iranian embassy in Moscow
well it seems the iranian embasy thought his words harsh enough to release a statement.
"The establishment of the Zionist regime was a move by the world oppressor against the Islamic world," the president told a conference in Tehran on Wednesday, entitled The World without Zionism.
"The skirmishes in the occupied land are part of a war of destiny. The outcome of hundreds of years of war will be defined in Palestinian land," he said.
"As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map," said Ahmadinejad, referring to Iran's revolutionary leader Ayat Allah Khomeini.
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/15E6BF77-6F91-46EE-A4B5-A3CE0E9957EA.htm
more lies????? :huh
or is your response going to be like this
Originally posted by lada
(http://drdigits.home.comcast.net/BaghdadBob.JPG)
These are not complete sentences and as we all know the president of Iran allways speaks in literal complete sentences.
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See Rule #7
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Welcome to the "Holy War".
Count me in with Israel.
:aok
Read the History.
Shalom...
Mac
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this has all been an unfortunate MISunderstandING. Iran supports the RIGHT of all UN MEMBER states to EXIST (HAHAHAHA)......
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See Rule #7
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Originally posted by lada
But i see, that some people enjoy idea of holy war, so keep laughing at ME situation, we keep laughing at 9/11.
I would love to meet you in person and explain all of this to you in a method that you would understand.
Here is one hint for you. If you read some news, theres usualy source. Follow the source and let me know, where you ended and what have you found.
I have found that I dislike you immensely. I have found that anyone who fights a three thousand year war over religion is a dumb as a brick.
I have found that no almighty deity ( assuming there was one) would want you to kill people.
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lada... let me instead ask you this.... is "muslim" a religion or a race or a country or what?
seems whenever there is problems it has to do with people who are "muslims".
Seems that these people... these muslims have loyalty to only a religion... a religion that teaches that everyone else is wrong and must be bought into the fold or destroyed...
perhaps that is the root of the problem... no one likes you? that is why. No one on earth wants your people to have any power over them or to make laws that we have to follow based on your silly religion.
lazs
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ahhh so now he was mis-quoted. It appears as if you are changing your story just as much. But even when the president of Iran issues statments to the effect that he stands by what he says, THE ENTIRE WORLD EXCEPT FOR LADA IS WRONG ABOUT THIS????????
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Originally posted by Gh0stFT
Sorry Seagoon, but you should change the word "west" maybe to something like "usa" ?
There are other "west nations" who dont see the religion Islam as a threat,
like you do.
Have you asked yourself why all this hate exist at all?
would it exist without any politics?
would it??
Good question Ghost.
Frankly, from a man-in-the-street perspective, I could not care less about what goes on in the middle east, as long as they keep selling us oil and act in a peaceful manner toward us.
Therein lies the problem. They do NOT act peacefully toward us. They try to kill us (and by "us" I mean Americans in America). More than once.
In claimed support of the Palestinian people, Bin Laden and company attacked the World Trade Center in 1994, killing several people and causing great damage. They were more successful, of course, in 2001. Several other attacks have taken place, around the world, against Americans and others.
The fact is, they don't like us. And unlike some countries that don't like us (ahem), they take action against us. Americans don't like to get pushed around, and eventually we push back.
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Originally posted by rshubert
The fact is, they don't like us. And unlike some countries that don't like us
And you have no bloody clue why, so you consider them to be underhuman beeings w/o brain.
And when i ask polite question.... Did you note, what was their 'official' problem at 90`s, somebody will call me terorist lover.
Yaj :)
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Originally posted by lazs2
lada... let me instead ask you this.... is "muslim" a religion or a race or a country or what?
seems whenever there is problems it has to do with people who are "muslims".
perhaps that is the root of the problem... no one likes you? that is why. No one on earth wants your people to have any power over them or to make laws that we have to follow based on your silly religion.
lazs
word muslim is used to describe people who belive in islam.
At least over here.
Here is another interesting diference between media reports.
While russian media report, that Checna is disrupted by muslim terrorist, our media(europian) report, that those who fight in checna are insurgents and separatists.
While BBC describe Iraqi resistence as insurgence since start of the war, i can often read in US media, that US army is fighting muslim extremist in Iraq, aka terrorist.
Associating muslims with extremism is simple and effective way, how to silent their whinning. And its as silly as associate Italy with terrorism because of IRA. But today its somehow fashion to point on religion, rather that on their rational goals, specialy when those people have diferent religion that majority of us. Anyway concept of creating phatoms of hate based on religion is well working concept and nothing new.
Here is nice example how living myths works.
http://www.mosnews.com/news/2005/09/02/kyrgyzbanker.shtml
Btw did you note, when US changed opinion about checnya ? (please note what kind of vocabulary they used )
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/527105.stm
While it was baad according to Bush troughs to "campaign against separatist Islamist rebels in Chechnya" today... its ok, because poor russia is fighting with evil muslim terrorist, who are organized in extremly dangerous international network, whitch ultimate goal is to erradicate all americans with dirty bombsss. boooom...
Let me explain our experience about sutch things.
The only one diference between freedom fighters, separatists and terrorist is, that freefom fighters, separatists are terrorist who we do support, while terrorist are freedom fighters, separatist who we do not support.
Btw.. did you ever visit some ME`s or NAfrican country ?
Stupid question.... but you should do it, it might change your view about muslims=conflict with terrorist
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Forgive us Lada, we dont mean to offend when we reffer to somone that blows up little school childeren because their religion tells them to as extremests.
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lada... when I do something I don't do it as a christian say.. If someone says that christians are evil... it doesn't offend me... I have no christan causes and I don't feel that I am a brit because some brit is a christian. I am not a christian... I am white and I am an American but I don't care one way or the other about chyristians or their causes... I don't want them to be in charge of my country or make it the official religion or make laws based on christian faith..
I sure as hell don't want to get into my armor with the big cross on it... that stuff went out with the crusades...
My problem with every muslim in the world is that they are still fighting the crusades. They won't be happy until every human bows to the will of their god..
you guys creep me out.... seriously.
lazs
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Religions and their antiquated structure of rules and beliefs are the whole problem here. Whether, Christian, Muslim, Jew, Or Pagean. It is all the same crap! Religion is a man made ideal based upon deitys. All invented to control the masses. Oppertunistic men use these ideals to their benefit to control populations for their own devices. The planet I come from we dissolved all religions and our people evolved to a higher state of being.
Living harmoniously with all things and each other. Someday earth will to. Just with less people after the cleansing that will take place soon.:O
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What a kidder!!! :lol :rolleyes: :mad:
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Originally posted by lazs2
My problem with every muslim in the world is that they are still fighting the crusades. They won't be happy until every human bows to the will of their god..
you guys creep me out.... seriously.
lazs
hehe .. thats funny.. those who live in peace love to live in peace.
But those who dont feel to be offended by some way. Non of muslim whitch i meet is about to liberate Vatican. And those with cares feel to be targeted.
well what you have said makes sense.
Pitty that you cant see those who are/feel affected on the other side.
I dont see that much diference you and them ( you both hate cross lol j/k )
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Forgive us Lada, we dont mean to offend when we reffer to somone that blows up little school childeren because their religion tells them to as extremests.
ehmm... is it their religion to tell them or is it you television who told you, that their religion tell them ?
You must be scared a lot by muslims.... Do you feer to walk to the mosq in the US ?
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Originally posted by lada
ehmm... is it their religion to tell them or is it you television who told you, that their religion tell them ?
You must be scared a lot by muslims.... Do you feer to walk to the mosq in the US ?
No I'm scared of muslims who say that their religion tells them to martyr themselves by taking over a school and blowing up children........these people are muslib extremests by every definition.
EDIT: I've never been to a mosq and have no desire to walk into one so I can't answer your second question. Do you still deny that the president of Iran said "Isreal must be wiped off the map"
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You realise thee is only 1 real solution to the middle east problem.
Turn the entire area into a sheet of glass so ardio active that nobody can inhabit it for over a thousand years.
Then nobody owns it.
Unfortunately and Sadly. This is exactly what I think is going to happen at some point. One way or the other
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lada your attitude suprises me, because of one word... Beslan
In case you've forgotten:
(http://www.an.com.br/2004/set/fotos/05cap01.jpg)
(http://amigosdocaralho.blogs.sapo.pt/arquivo/bebe.jpg)
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by Lada: While BBC describe Iraqi resistence as insurgence since start of the war, i can often read in US media, that US army is fighting muslim extremist in Iraq, aka terrorist.
Well...strapping explosives on one`s body, and blowing up people with it is pretty damn extreme as far as I am concerned. Are they muslims? I have a firm belife that they are. So what is the problem with calling them muslim extremists?
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Originally posted by Vulcan
lada your attitude suprises me, because of one word... Beslan
In case you've forgotten:
(http://www.an.com.br/2004/set/fotos/05cap01.jpg)
(http://amigosdocaralho.blogs.sapo.pt/arquivo/bebe.jpg)
Vulcaan, I take it that you never served in the Military Son. Drag a half of a dead friend a few klicks..an feel the thoughts. Try and pack the dam grey matter back into a head and comfort him that all is okay, reset a frikken eyeball into young mans head and say yer okay, get up. Feel a hand grow cold as life escapes the body of someone you smoked a cig wig 30 minutes ago............
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Originally posted by AWMac
Vulcaan, I take it that you never served in the Military Son. Drag a half of a dead friend a few klicks..an feel the thoughts. Try and pack the dam grey matter back into a head and comfort him that all is okay, reset a frikken eyeball into young mans head and say yer okay, get up. Feel a hand grow cold as life escapes the body of someone you smoked a cig wig 30 minutes ago............
Nope. Lucky me. Closest I've got is hearing dozens and dozens of stories first hand from relatives... like the young girl that got pregnant and had her fetus "removed" (think bayonet) and displayed on the camps barbed-wire-fence. Or the parents decapitated. Or my wife and mother in law finding their father/husband in a ditch with his 5 year old daughter/sister in his arms.
I just got the feeling the lada's posts were very sympathetic to such an atrocious behaviour pattern.
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(http://medienkritik.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/iran.gif)
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This guy is a riot !
Tehran, Oct. 30 – Iran’s hard-line President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad told the latest cabinet meeting in the Iranian capital that “if we were permitted to hang two or three persons, the problems with the stock exchange would be solved for ever”, according to a Tehran-based newspaper.
Ahmadinejad was addressing a cabinet meeting held to discuss the rapidly deteriorating situation at the Tehran Stock Exchange, the daily Ruznet reported on Sunday.
Ministers and experts disagreed with all the different views and proposals raised at the meeting, which came to an end without any concrete results. Tempers flew high and participants shouted at each other during the discussion, according to the daily. Frustrated with the inability of his economic advisers and experts to come up with any solution, Ahmadinejad told them that the only way out of the current stock exchange and financial market problems was to “frighten” speculators by hanging two or three of them.
Iran’s ultra-Islamist President first sent jitters through the country’s markets when he said on the eve of the presidential elections in June that “stock exchange activities are a kind of gambling and we are against them”. Gambling is banned in Islam.
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Give up the BS lada, I've grown up with plenty of muslims (among others), and the only way to keep many of them friends was to stay neutral and impartial to the bone.
One whiff of whatever pet peeve or fetish of theirs from me and they'd turn on me like the infidel blasphemous dog I wasn't.
This was all the way back in grade school, where they didn't have precise political or social ideals, but already had the base values for them, imitatings parents and peers as far as I could tell.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
lada your attitude suprises me, because of one word... Beslan
In case you've forgotten:
(http://www.an.com.br/2004/set/fotos/05cap01.jpg)
(http://amigosdocaralho.blogs.sapo.pt/arquivo/bebe.jpg)
LOL i just delted post whitch i were writing for 20 mins... damm ...
I found much better answer for you.
If you consider several hundred dead children to be good reason to authorise liberization of Checna, then you must be absolutly in same ideologic line, like Iraqi freedom fighters.
Sorry but they use same explanations, like you did now :)
(and they have some others backup explanations as well)
i have strong feeling, that some people over here would be great freedom fighters.
btw.: i manage to find this when i were writing my first post, it might be usefull source of informations for whinning Checenyan and blessing Putin.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3665136.stm
Krusher: lol good one
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no we are not finding reason for anything......you have pretty much crossed the line into doltness territory here.
We are explaining to you why they are called muslim extremests in the media. Obviously you are not listening or you just don't care (typical)
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Originally posted by lada
LOL i just delted post whitch i were writing for 20 mins... damm ...
Allah be Prasied.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
We are explaining to you why they are called muslim extremests in the media. Obviously you are not listening or you just don't care (typical)
ahh this one... this one is simple for me.
because "muslim extremists" is well painted box and you can judge in 2 seconds after reading news regardless reality.
If you will read, that 150 "muslim extremist" has been shot dead in Pakistan, you will be happy 2 seconds after reading.
If you will hear, that "muslim extremist" bombed inocent russian army in Checnya, you can also judge because you already know term. "muslim extremists" ..
but whatch out... even you leader sometime swap extremists with separatist freedom fighters and vise versa
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/527105.stm
(just in case you didnt catch it)
anyway i think that our opinions are clear now and skuzzy can go for a beer.
(lol damm thread about Iran, 4th page and its not locked yet .. hush hush :D )
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Originally posted by lada
but whatch out... even you leader sometime swap extremists with separatist freedom fighters and vise versa
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/527105.stm
(just in case you didnt catch it)
Anti Democrate rhetoric from 1999.
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INcredible.
:D
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Originally posted by lada
And you have no bloody clue why, so you consider them to be underhuman beeings w/o brain.
And when i ask polite question.... Did you note, what was their 'official' problem at 90`s, somebody will call me terorist lover.
Yaj :)
No, I consider them to be very dangerous adversaries. Different values, different world view, different goals...and their goals, world view, and values are to destroy my culture and me with it. By "them", I mean Islamist terrorists and their fellow travellers. Not Muslims. Please understand the difference.
It's not about religion, or race, or ethnicity. It's about a direct threat, ONE THEY REPEAT FREQUENTLY IN PUBLIC, to destroy my way of life.
I tend to get worked up over that.
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Originally posted by lada
ahh this one... this one is simple for me.
because "muslim extremists" is well painted box and you can judge in 2 seconds after reading news regardless reality.
If you will read, that 150 "muslim extremist" has been shot dead in Pakistan, you will be happy 2 seconds after reading.
If you will hear, that "muslim extremist" bombed inocent russian army in Checnya, you can also judge because you already know term. "muslim extremists" ..
but whatch out... even you leader sometime swap extremists with separatist freedom fighters and vise versa
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/527105.stm
(just in case you didnt catch it)
anyway i think that our opinions are clear now and skuzzy can go for a beer.
(lol damm thread about Iran, 4th page and its not locked yet .. hush hush :D )
but in this case they are not going after a russian army they went after a school filled with children. Tell me how is this not the actions of "muslim extremests"?
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Originally posted by lada
But i see, that some people enjoy idea of holy war, so keep laughing at ME situation, we keep laughing at 9/11.
Lada thanks for reinforcing my beliefs in Muslim behavior, I will sleep better now!
Really thanks!!
TJ
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seriously... are there any civilized muslim countries? Is there any muslim country that anyone would like to immulate?
suicide bombers asside... I just don't want to live like that... they have had thousands of years to prove that they have something worth stiving for and all I see is something to avoid.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
seriously... are there any civilized muslim countries? Is there any muslim country that anyone would like to immulate?
A noted citizen of your state recently moved to Bahrain and he said it was wonderful.
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Originally posted by lada
If you consider several hundred dead children to be good reason to authorise liberization of Checna, then you must be absolutly in same ideologic line, like Iraqi freedom fighters.
Sorry but they use same explanations, like you did now :)
(and they have some others backup explanations as well)
i have strong feeling, that some people over here would be great freedom fighters.
No. I don`t think that deliberitely killing childeren is the way of achiving any goal. Calling these people freedom fighters is is a slap in the face of those who really were freedom fighters, fighting an occupying ARMY . i.e French resistence, the fighters of the Warsaw gettho and the other Warsaw uprising, partisans of Yugoslavia and Russia...
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
but in this case they are not going after a russian army they went after a school filled with children. Tell me how is this not the actions of "muslim extremests"?
according to their demants, like "freedom of religion, some sort of authonomy" and so on (you will find them in that link) i dont see any single reason, why should i care about their religion.
I consider those request to be quite ok.
We better dont why russian oposed offer from SB, who claim that those people were not part of his group and offered his personal ( or his son i dont remember) presence at Beslam during siege.
But our democratic russia decide to storm those gunman and kill few children instead of accept hand from "bloody muslim terrorist", who demand above mentioned things.
jaj...
nothing has happen... we will blame checnyan terrorists few times, with serious face on TV
next week we will post few pictures, how we fighting those bloody terrorists... and everybody will be happy.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
but in this case they are not going after a russian army they went after a school filled with children. Tell me how is this not the actions of "muslim extremests"?
Those who were blamed by Putin, distanced themself from this act during the siege and offered help.
anyway... Putin has been quoted in more media that those guys.
And dont forget, that there was no 1 hour to kill all ultimatum or something like this.
But according to most cool movies, "bang bang boom boom" should be most cool and first option anyway.
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Originally posted by lazs2
seriously... are there any civilized muslim countries? Is there any muslim country that anyone would like to immulate?
lazs
seriously... did you ever visit some "muslim country" or you hear about them only on TV ?
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Originally posted by lada
Those who were blamed by Putin, distanced themself from this act during the siege and offered help.
anyway... Putin has been quoted in more media that those guys.
And dont forget, that there was no 1 hour to kill all ultimatum or something like this.
But according to most cool movies, "bang bang boom boom" should be most cool and first option anyway.
so you are saying these guys do not qualify as "muslim extremests"? It's a simple question lada but keep dancing if you must.
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~
No. I don`t think that deliberitely killing childeren is the way of achiving any goal. Calling these people freedom fighters is is a slap in the face of those who really were freedom fighters, fighting an occupying ARMY . i.e French resistence, the fighters of the Warsaw gettho and the other Warsaw uprising, partisans of Yugoslavia and Russia...
ahhh you forget to mention Iraqi resistence and "checenyan terorists".. they also fight occupation army... actualy Checnyan had some webpages with fancy videos from fights.
I still do not understand why you dont get it.
Look at Vulcan... Vulcan is pissed off, because some horde of idiots cased dead of 320 children. At the same time you are whinning that those who fight those, who killed 26000 Iraqi civilists are evil terrorists ...... heee ?
its so simple ...
btw.. you seems to be from Israel... Would you be so kind and tell me, what are top 3 most spread religions among people ? When i spoke with one guy from Israel (actualy he is profesor of sociology) he told me, that Judaism is not most spread religion anymore.
?
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
so you are saying these guys do not qualify as "muslim extremests"? It's a simple question lada but keep dancing if you must.
From what i know they were not motivated by religion, so i dont care about their religion.
Thus i dont consider them "muslim extremists"
"religion extremist" is one, who want to implement his troughs by force, killing and he reffer to "holy book" or "god"
"religion extremist" is not the one who belive in God and fight for independence, freedom of religion or authonomy.
I hope that i answered your question.
Just one example. This guy dont mind to order "liberalization (whitch caused dead of 26k people)", because God told him... So i consider him to be ("place his religion here" extremist, fanatic)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/10/07/wus07.xml
(lol damm ... its more funny thing 45mins WMD )
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so now you are saying these guys arent even muslim at all????
(http://www.jinsa.org/documents/200410/2692.jpg)
(http://www.canadianchristianity.com/missionfields04/graphics/burnhams.jpg)
(http://www.360vrwc.com/gallery/hamas.jpg)
(http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/images/hamas-no-peace.jpg)
(http://gblx.cache.el-mundo.net/especiales/2004/11/internacional/orienteproximo/img/partidospalestinos/hamas.jpg)
(http://www.israellycool.com/extremists%20Arab%20Reuters.jpg)
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(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/63/Pic2.jpeg)
Amir (commander) of Islamic brigade of Shahids "Riyadu-s-Saliheen" Abdallah Shamil abu Idris (aka Shamil Basayev) (left) and the President of self-declared Chechen Republic of Ichkeria Aslan Maskhadov (right) at a house in one of Chechnya's communities during the holy Muslim month of Ramadan, 2004
so not muslim either?
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Originally posted by lada
Just one example. This guy dont mind to order "liberalization (whitch caused dead of 26k people)", because God told him... So i consider him to be ("place his religion here" extremist, fanatic)
The White House yesterday denied the claim as "absurd".
Did Hamas ever deny that they declared Jihad?
(whitch caused dead of 26k people)
The much more humane policy followed before the invasion of Iraq killed 1 million. (Unicef estimate)
1,000,000 people / 10 yrs = 100,000 / yr
26,000 / 2.5 yrs = 10,400 / yr
difference 89,600 lives / yr
(that can't be right.... can it?)
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Errmm Holden your calculations are wrong dude, I believe the figure quoted by lada (aka De'Nile) is TOTAL CIVILIAN DEATHS. Source of death is not attributed. IE, this figure includes those killed by suicide bombers, had their heads loped off by ninja-wannabees, and shot by AK47 wielding wedding partygoers.
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Anyone else see the irony in the jackets these guys are wearing, oh and the cap the guy on the far left has on?
(http://www.israellycool.com/extremists%20Arab%20Reuters.jpg)
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if he wasn't so serious in his "doltness" I'd say he was trolling us.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Errmm Holden your calculations are wrong dude, I believe the figure quoted by lada (aka De'Nile) is TOTAL CIVILIAN DEATHS. Source of death is not attributed. IE, this figure includes those killed by suicide bombers, had their heads loped off by ninja-wannabees, and shot by AK47 wielding wedding partygoers.
But all death in Iraq is Booshes fault isn't it?
And sanction deaths were much more than "Iraqi Freedom" deaths....
My figures must be wrong... changing tactics in Iraq should have caused more death not less.
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Originally posted by lada
btw.. you seems to be from Israel... Would you be so kind and tell me, what are top 3 most spread religions among people ? When i spoke with one guy from Israel (actualy he is profesor of sociology) he told me, that Judaism is not most spread religion anymore.
?
In Israel or in the world?
In Israel, not including the occupied territories Jews still have a vast majority (about 75%) about 20% are muslims and a few % critsitans and others.
If you include the occupied territory Jews % go down to near 50%. If you look only at ages 18 or below, muslims have the majority.
World wide, the estiamtes are 12-14 million Jews total. that's about 0.2% of the world population. the numbers are 5 mil in Israel, about 5 mil in USA (less than 2% of americans) and the rest spread around. The world Jewish population is almost constant since 1945, so Israel's resources for "importing" Jews are depleted. Natural birth rates are far too low to compete with the muslims, so even local majorities will be lost pretty soon.
Bozon
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lada
ahhh you forget to mention Iraqi resistence and "checenyan terorists".. they also fight occupation army...
Those guys also murder countless civilians on a daily basis...why is it so difficoult to understand the difference?
btw...where r u from?
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lala... nope...never been to a muslim country... know a lot of guys who I trust that have tho and they all said the places were crapholes.
I know people who have visited Israel too and they said it was great... except for the muslims..
The pictures of the terrorists, for better or worse... is the picture most of us have in our minds when we think of peaceful islam... the beheadings and killing of childredn and suicide bombings. No other group is as bad.
muslims are probly the very last religion on earth that I would ever want to live under. their laws are so barbaric that I could not abide by them.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
muslims are probly the very last religion on earth that I would ever want to live under. their laws are so barbaric that I could not abide by them.
Living under the holy church wasn't fun either. Monoetheism is the worst kind of religion there is.
Bring back polyetheism! They are much more tolerants - when you have 50 gods accepting a few more does not matter.
Bozon
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"wasn't"? I think you hit on it bozon.. muslim religion is still living out the crusades... other religions have become much more tolerant.
your point seems to be that if I lived 800 years or so ago I wouldn't be better off with the christians... you are no doubt right... they changed..
the christians that is...
lazs
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Bring back polyetheism! They are much more tolerants - when you have 50 gods accepting a few more does not matter.
I'm not so sure about that. Hindus seem to have their share of religious zealots, and problems co-existing with Muslims, Bhuddists and Sikhs.
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~
lada
Those guys also murder countless civilians on a daily basis...why is it so difficoult to understand the difference?
btw...where r u from?
Checenyan rebels murder civilians at daily baisis..
And Aceh rebels eat little children.
ahh ok..
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Originally posted by bozon
In Israel or in the world?
In Israel, not including the occupied territories Jews still have a vast majority (about 75%) about 20% are muslims and a few % critsitans and others.
If you include the occupied territory Jews % go down to near 50%. If you look only at ages 18 or below, muslims have the majority.
Bozon
Yeep i were asking about Israel..
Thx for informations.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
so now you are saying these guys arent even muslim at all????
huh ?
You were asking me, if they are "muslim extremists" IMO.
I explained to you, who i do consider "religion extremists", and who i do not consider "religion extremist".
I didnt get this question.
You probably didnt get my troughs.
If SB is muslim or christian or atheist doesnt matter. His goals are not related to religion, he isnt driven by any "holy book" nor "God".
And sutch things didnt take place at his list of demands.
So for me he is "separatist, rebel, freedom fighter" and i dont give a watermelon about his religion. IMO if you mark him as "terrorist", its still more exact that "muslim extremist".
Did you understood who i do consider "religion extremist" and whom not ?
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Guys
Stop qouting Lada, he is the poster child for ignore.
Well ignore, and little yellow buses.
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Originally posted by lazs2
lala... nope...never been to a muslim country... know a lot of guys who I trust that have tho and they all said the places were crapholes.
I know people who have visited Israel too and they said it was great... except for the muslims..
That interesting. I used to travell trough several countries in ME
and i never noted, that other travellers had sutch unified point of view.
Anyway all of them agreed, that 2 years in army for Israeli gals make them *%&^@#*$% beautiful.
Actualy i were chatting with australian guy, who used to live in Israel for some 6 months in 2003. He used to work at farm and brought quite interesting stories from countryside (how some killed his daugter, because she had sex with someone, what people use to cheat parents, that girl was virgin at weding nights... and a lot of other quite useful tricks :) )
But these were people who travell trough the regions with backpack, mostly between 20-35 years of age.
They dont travell from 4 start hotel to 5 star hotel. It might be diferent story.
Anyway the only one American who i meet in ME was a 18 or 19 years old guy, who run out of money in the Turkey so he were waiting 4 months in the hotel untill his mom sent him money. he was very famous at that time, everyone who were passing from Turkey to Iran, Pakistan, Indai(part of silk road ) knew about him.
Im not sure anymore.. but i think that he travelled to Jordan, Syria (or Lebanon) and may be Iran, before he run into problems in Turkey. Anyway... i liked him , because he had a balls to check the world (even when he sux at counting and planning :) )
Well im not about to convince you to visit ME, but if you think, that whole ME is the same because they are all muslims, then you trough wrong. It is as mad as expect, that whole EU is the same, because there used to be Christians.
Caligua.. do you have some sort of religion in Israel ( may be fork of Judaism or Islam), whitch belive in something like reincarnation ?
Edit: ahh sry Caligua i forget to reply your question.
tricks ok*** I guess that you might be a jew (my chance to be right is 50% :D ). So if im going to tell you, that i live in most important Jewish centre in Europe before holocaust, then you might be able to conclude answer :)
( btw first (probably) moderate genocide agains jews, took place around year 1142 overhere and it has been carried out by christians).. Now its must be quite clear ;)
[damm im so happy to live in secular state, when im reading local history ]
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lada... you are young so you obviously listen to other young people... I am not so young so I listen to the people who are about my age... the people I share interests with and such. If they say a place is a craphole then I will probly see the same thing... if there was nothing there for them then there probly won't be much for me. same in your position.. you look at it from the perspective of how it works out for young people.
You may wish to divorce the muslim extremists from the muslims but they do not wish to do so... they are in the untold thousands and the most radical barbarians of all of modern times...
I really hope that there are 45,000 muslim suicide bombers being trained.... the sooner people like that die the better. If we have to have a war to wipe em all out.... so be it.
in falujah I thought it was a good thing that such muslims came from all over the globe to fight the Americans and be slaughtered... every one killed is a plus for the world.
lazs
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Originally posted by lada
Caligua.. do you have some sort of religion in Israel ( may be fork of Judaism or Islam), whitch belive in something like reincarnation ?
Hint : Kabbalah + Zohar book.
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yeeeep im still young... and not lazy yet
Well im not trying to divose "muslim extremists from muslim". All i were trying to do here... and i obviously didnt succeed, was to explain to those who were asking(wondering) why we do not agree on your terminology, whitch lead to greatest trough, that all muslims are barbaric dangerous evil terrorists.
I didnt expect to convince you that you are wrong.
*sarcasm on * you spent much more hours in front of TV that i did and probably less time abroad *sarcasm off*
:]
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Originally posted by straffo
Hint : Kabbalah + Zohar book.
sort of french cook book ?
lets try google :D
Orel
edit: yeep it might be what i were asking for... damm and now he gonna tell me, that he is still just a "coder"
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Heya Straffo!
You like my sig? :D :D :D
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Look like a "up" got stuck somewhere in the keyboard :O
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LOL yeah but it sure made for a funny moment!
:D
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The english language is just weird !
I'm innocent !!!!
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LOL I am sure you are but the sig is comedy GOLD!!
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Did Hamas ever deny that they declared Jihad?
The much more humane policy followed before the invasion of Iraq killed 1 million. (Unicef estimate)
1,000,000 people / 10 yrs = 100,000 / yr
26,000 / 2.5 yrs = 10,400 / yr
difference 89,600 lives / yr
(that can't be right.... can it?)
Based on those figures, Bush has saved about 90,000 lives a year since he invaded Iraq.
Nah..... that can't be right. Refigure that so it makes Bush look bad, then revise your post please. :D
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do you have some sort of religion in Israel ( may be fork of Judaism or Islam), whitch belive in something like reincarnation ?
I dont know enough about Islam to tell but Judaism does not have reincarnation. It does not have heaven or hell either. When you die your soul waits in a sort of "limbo" until the "next world" which is technically this world after the resurrection. Where they gonna put everyone is beyond me. Maybe you gentiles would not be ressurected and that would clear some room.
The cabala says something about the possibility of souls returning from the limbo and into living bodies of people in "this" world. The cabala however is a few Jewish philosophical ideas mixed with a load of crap that got increasingly popular during the years. It is a late "invention" in jewish terms from around 1200 AD. In todays "new age" rubbish it fits right in and this explains how suddenly every "celeb" have a cabala teacher. I guess every religion has to have its own type of applied witchcraft.
Bozon
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
LOL I am sure you are but the sig is comedy GOLD!!
sure ;)
//teacher hat on
look at your sig
Finally the a French man admits it!
//teacher hat off
what is a "the a" ? :D