Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Karnak on April 11, 2001, 06:32:00 PM
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While I sympathize with the feelings of the family of the lost Chinese pilot, this is scary:
BBC News Article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/asia-pacific/newsid_1271000/1271609.stm)
What do you guys think? Nutty, or what?
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
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hmmm...
"the pride of the navy"
and he still can't fly formation.
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Sounds to me like they are trying to rally the Chinese people around a common bond-- hatred of the US for killing(?) one of their pilots.
Maybe this isn't the end. Afterall, why would you continue to press the people of a nation about the loss of one person to a "strong enem[y]."
Of course I could be wrong, it just sounds like they are trying to gain the nation's support for something... but what?
-SW
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Exclusive picture of Wrong way's last meal :
(http://perso.wanadoo.fr/alain.mattia/Mypage_fichiers/fortune.gif)
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Spooky, that man died... Shame on you.
It's a kind of "humor" I never appreciate.
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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I guess a couple of decades in a reeducation camp are in order for me then huh comrade ...
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ROFL@spooky.....cmon spooky..you know idiots that nearley kill out people deserver more respect than that...afterall..they hold up darwins theory all by themselves.
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The Chinese leaders are simply using the "Tyrant's Handbook". I believe paragraph one on page one says something about creating a foreign devil. Paragraph two talks about deifying the people who die for you.
This turns the mob's attention away from domestic matters.
All governments try to get away with this. They usually do until the people wake up.
I'm a typical American working slob. I have no issues with any typical Chinese working slob. Our governments would have it otherwise. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by Boroda:
Spooky, that man died... Shame on you.
It's a kind of "humor" I never appreciate.
by his own hand, play you pay
Eagler
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Spooky, look outside the window please. It's spring, year 2001, mr. McCarthy.
Eagler, maybe you are right, but it's not a reason to dance at this tombstone.
Wonder what a righteous indignation should arise if a US pilot dies under the same circumstances.
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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Originally posted by Boroda:
Spooky, that man died... Shame on you.
Immediately after the accident US offered to help with a search and China declined. There was no way for anyone to know that soon what happened and whose fault it was.
I venture to say there was no need for Chinese to know who was at fault and that they do not need or want that pilot alive. He is a good inspiration while dead but could prove to be embarrasment if alive - who knows what he would tell ten years later?
For his sake I hope he died in the sea while no one was looking for him or allowed to look for him, rather then being found and disappeared by his own government.
miko
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blur - you've hit the nail on the head.
It's like you say - the first rule in the Tyrant's handbook.
Just look at the timing of Margaret Thatcher's invasion of the Falklands. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I think it is a rule in any leadership's book, but the true Tyrant makes it a central theme.
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Why should we worry or even be concerned about “Wrong Way”.
From what I understand he frequently antagonized U.S. pilots. I have even seen a picture of him flashing his e-mail address from his cockpit for those pilots he was antagonizing to respond to. He was playing around and it got him killed.
I wonder if he was thinking about checking his e-mail when he was spinning out in flames?
Yes a man died. Yes he died due to his own error. No I don’t give a rats arse how the family or his country feels.
Zippatuh
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If the same thing happened to an American pilot, a lot of people here would STILL call the guy a moron for crashing into a lumbering propeller plane, regardless of what the media says.
Americans (well, some of them) don't always eat what the government spoon-feeds them.
J_A_B
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"Wonder what a righteous indignation should arise if a US pilot dies under the same circumstances"
Scary..I find myself agreeing with Boroda.
Had it been a Chinese "intelligence"-plane having a mid-air with a US fighter and the US pilot died, you would have been screaming bloody murder, no matter how it happened.
Daff
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Originally posted by Boroda:
Wonder what a righteous indignation should arise if a US pilot dies under the same circumstances.
I'd like to direct your attention to the list of unarmed military aircraft and civilian aircraft shot down by the same country you hale from. There were numerous fatalities thanks to your military's indiscriminate practices. Several of the shoot downs were also the result of chinese actions. It seems to me the score here is pretty one sided. There have been far more fatalities on the U.S. side than china and the ussr combined. I believe at this time there have been NO fatalities in the case of soviet or chinese recon planes to date as the result of U.S. interceptions.
Perhaps that is not something you would like to admit. It kind of takes away from your self serving sense of righteous indignation doesn't it commissar.
Mav
PS Personally I do hope future recon planes flying in the same area will be escorted. That should keep any other idiotic interceptor pilots from getting "too close" to slower less maneuverable aircraft.
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Originally posted by Boroda:
Spooky, look outside the window please. It's spring, year 2001, mr. McCarthy.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) Will do Mr Stalin (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Hey boroda it's just a joke lighten up ! It's called "humour noir"...Not very tasteful I admit but some people like it !
Plus this is the O'club remember : Open forum for off-topic and less serious discussions.
Don't want to get into a political discussion here but we are free to make even the baddest jokes without having the politically correct police breathing down our necks...(to contact them dial: 0800-Kilo-Mike-Alpha)
Ok now here's a smiley (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Get it ?
Spooky
[This message has been edited by Spooky67 (edited 04-13-2001).]
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Great,
So your actualy telling me that a Chinese pilot, who has not been trained properly. Makes one big huge mother *$&(£ off mistake and crashes into something twice the size of my house and he is made into a national hero!!
So why.. When I fell of that step ladder the other day and hit that old geezzer on the head was I not branded a hero... Hummmm.
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In a related story, the People's Daily reports that the military has approved a proposition to officially designate Wei as a martyr.
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Originally posted by Spooky67:
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) Will do Mr Stalin (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Hey boroda it's just a joke lighten up ! It's called "humour noir"...Not very tasteful I admit but some people like it !
Plus this is the O'club remember : Open forum for off-topic and less serious discussions.
Don't want to get into a political discussion here but we are free to make even the baddest jokes without having the politically correct police breathing down our necks...(to contact them dial: 0800-Kilo-Mike-Alpha)
Ok now here's a smiley (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Get it ?
Spooky
I agree with Boroda Spooky,
whether or not this is a less then serious discussion, pay the Chinese pilot the same respect you would an American one who made a mistake.
Yes, he made a mistake. It was an accident and most likely Wei's fault.
But don't trod on the mans grave just to get a laugh out of him, because I bet it wasn't a pleasent end to his life (either by sharks, drowning, shock, etc) and if you were in the same place you would definitely not appreciate people picking fun at you.
If you cannot respect the dead, then you have no respect for life in my book.
Regards,
Moose
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No offense Moose, but have you hung out around pilots much? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Daff> The trouble is they believe eveything their leadership feeds them, blind faith that everything they are told is the gospel truth, that their country is right and anything outside their shores should be treated with suspicion and spied upon incase someone is plotting against them, severe paranoia about anything that does not fit into their culture leads to generations of people like this. Who am I talking about?
America of course
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Daff> The trouble is they believe eveything their leadership feeds them, blind faith that everything they are told is the gospel truth, that their country is right and anything outside their shores should be treated with suspicion and spied upon incase someone is plotting against them, severe paranoia about anything that does not fit into their culture leads to generations of people like this. Who am I talking about?
America of course
You should know better than that just by reading this board....
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Yeah on refelection perhaps it was a slightly unfair sweeping comment, I know there are some guys willing to talk and discussthings rationally but recently I've become iritated at the attitude of some on this board when talking about other countries, such topics as Boroda's post about the first man in space was met by frothing at the mouth jingoistic flag waving muppets who felt the need to put another countries efforts down and the same goes forthe China incident, they might well have been in international airspace (but who knows if they strayed inside China airspace and will we ever know?) but they were using technology to spy into China and give reason for a fighter to be sent to watch the plane. This chest beating by the Americans here over the whole subject is getting beyond a joke, now they are even gloating over the death of another man! I thought this was an international game and therefore a board with an international flavour to it but it seems thats not the case the discussion is only welcome if its of an American bias (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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Originally posted by Revvin:
... they might well have been in international airspace (but who knows if they strayed inside China airspace and will we ever know?)....
Even the CHINESE admit the collision was in International Airspace. But in your oh-so-unbiased observation you choose to cast an "X-file" suspicion on that.
...but they were using technology to spy into China and give reason for a fighter to be sent to watch the plane.
Oh no! Not TECHNOLOGY! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif) Antennae! Receivers!!! Recorders!!!!! OH MY!
Spy? How about "intelligence gathering"? Like every "major power" nation does in some form or another. The Chinese have a shared "intelligence gathering" operation in Cuba now. Check out what the Nimrods did in the 70's and 80's. It's no big thing. Unless of course you are just into inflammatory rhetoric.
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Yawn another person can't see past the propaganda, I said *might* why else did the Chinese feel the need to send out a fighter to recon? Nothing X-Files about that.
As for the technology, yes there was spying going on, thats why the crew spent precious minutes destroying what they had,every country does it but nobody whines as loudly as America when they get caught with their pants down, this would not have gone any further and made such media hype had America not insisted that this flight was nothing more than harmless, instead they bang their fists and try to bully China and dig a hole for themselves and endanger the lives of their own crewmen.
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Rev,
What you don't know about what goes on in the field of international intelligence gathering would fill volumes.
Obviously, ignorance is bliss.
Enjoy. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Revvin, It's hard to believe that we were on the different sides two years ago...
Now you say EXACTLY what I meant by "trolling" into all this EP-3 threads, but you express this POV much better as a native English-speaker.
You know my reaputation on flightsim boards, and I am happy to see that you share my beliefs sometimes.
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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Toad if all you can make is pissy snide comments like that then I fear its your ignorance which is the greater..why do I fear this? because governments love puppets like you that swallow everything hook line and sinker and a nation of puppets blindly following such a regime is dangerous to say the least as history has shown.
Why is it that America cannot shoulder any blame at all in this incident? America is not blameless and yet takes the moral highground when one of their spy planes get caught, your governments actions after the crash did more to endanger the lives of its crewmen than China ever did. A small bit of diplomacy was all that was needed to clear this whole thing up even before the media caught hold of the story but as usual America has to resort to strongarm tactics and bully their way through an international matter.
Boroda> Not sure which SIDE you're talking about but I have an open mind to most things and know that no one government is honest as the other..power corrupts (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) You just need an open mind to filter the propaganda out sometimes (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Revvin, I meant a Yugoslavian war discussion in warbirds.general 2 years ago.
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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Spy planes gets caught?
You mean the huge, lumbering thing they had out in the wide open in broad daylight?
The UK sends intercepts Revvin, we send intercepts, I imagine even Russia sends intercepts, but if those intercepts run into the planes they're going to have a look at, they're smart enough to know its their own fault.
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Fatty, Toad,
Don't try to convince them otherwise. Their minds are made up and facts are only something for them to ignore in the face of their prejudice.
Pretty much the same thing in a ground collision where a car rear ends another one at a red light. The rear driver claims the other car rammed him at high speed in reverse....in spite of the skids that lead directly to his car.
Mav
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CC, Mav.
I figure he was probably just another troll. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
In fact, I prefer to think that. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Otherwise it means he really doesn't have a clue with respect to intelligence gathering, International Law, Aviation right-of-way policies, ADIZ airspace, International Airspace, ICAO Standard Intercept Procedures ... well, with respect to the entire incident.
All this stuff has been discussed in related threads so it pretty much HAS to be a troll.
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Boroda> Ahh yes I remember it, got quite heated as I remember but then good discussions do (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Fatty> It was chock full of surveilance equipment that was hurridly destroyed by the crew.. what do you think they were on..a sight seeing tour?? I never said any country does anything different but you don't hear anyone whining as loudly as America when its caught with its pants down, whose word are you taking for blame in the collision? I'm sure if the Chinese pilot were still alive he'd have his version too but neither Government is going to admit anything either way.
Their minds are made up and facts are only something for them to ignore in the face of their prejudice.
Wow Mav what do you do for an encore? wave the stars and stripes to the tune of Bruce Springstein "Born in the USA" man you guys make me weak with laughter you swallow every word thats fed to you by your government. Perhaps if it is so transparent and open perhaps they'll tell us who really shot Kennedy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Revvin,
When you come up with some facts you can talk to me. In the mean time please take your speculation and play with it in the corner. I'm sure you'll be much happier there than dealing with the real world.
Mav
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Not really sure what's going on here. Maybe it's just that I'm a little tired.
As a card-carrying member of the Militant Left, I don't really make it a practice to blindly follow anything my country might do.
I always despised the statement "Love It or Leave It." I thought that slogan would have been more appropriate in Germany around 1935.
But I will say this: "Born in the USA" is a song about a Vietnam vet that comes back disillusioned, and basically his life is crap. It makes about as much sense to suggest an American use that as a chest-beating theme as it would for me to offer "Anarchy in the UK" for a British flag-waving ceremony.
Additionally, even from the Radical Left, I can tell you that the difference between China and the US in this matter is that we are quite used to playing the surveillance game.
There may be some incident that both the US and the USSR, or later Russia, got involved in and covered up, but we usually don't run into people's planes.
We also don't make people who make grave mistakes national heroes.
When I see this continue with the Chinese propaganda machine, instead of getting angry, I really start to feel sorry for the Chinese government. It's like they need a lesson in how to be a super-power or something.
I guess there is no way with the prejudice that seems to exist in the world towards the United States, that we'll ever be seen as anything more than an agressive, boasting child, that just "doesn't get it", no matter what we do. Oh well. Never try and teach a pig to sing. It's a waste of your time, and it annoys the pig.
It seems particularly absurd in this instance. I don't think anyone in this country is being fed some kind of roadkill line about what happened.
Maybe every film we see on CNN is some wild concoction a la "Wag The Dog" or something, but from what I've seen, this guy was a little too cocky, and it got him into trouble.
Personally, sure, I'm sorry a guy got killed. I never like to hear that someone died. But should we as a nation take the blame for his death? Should we feel like it's our fault he died? No.
In closing, I think probably the main thing that differentiates the US from a lot of countries in this world is that we DON'T swallow every word that is "fed" to us by our government. I think we kind of wrote the book on how to demonstrate against the policies of our government on a number of issues, throughout the decades.
And I can't speak for every American, but quite a few of us are rather adept at telling toejam from Shine-o-la. Even if we're card-carrying liberals.
Let's stop looking at this as another example of running-dog imperialist yankee war-monger aggression, and realize that it was a horrible accident that took the life of a Chinese pilot, and damn near killed 24 Americans.
I'm just another working slob myself, but I'm getting sick and tired of being labeled as some sort of gun-toting, hate-filled moron, who thinks I'm better than anyone else in the world.
Sometimes I feel like if I ever did have the opportunity, the time, and the funds to travel abroad, I'd spend most of my time trying to dispel the stigma that seems to be attached to anyone from the United States.
Hell, if that's what I want to do with my time, I can save my money, and stay here and argue with conservative right-wingers ad nauseum.
Hey Eagler, you got your ears on? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Mk
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Mk10=Ravens,
I've got to say that its nice to see another liberal in here. We're rare as hens teeth in the flight sim community.
I agree with everything you posted, nice job.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
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Revvin, to be honest, I don't really have a problem with them gutting the plane. Well, I'd rather they didn't, but nobody honestly expects they won't. You say this as if they were suprised the plane was there? It's been flying the flight forever, they've been intercepting it forever, their pilot simply pushed the line too hard this time and messed up.
What I have a problem with is our trade supporting a government that is using us as the demon to rally nationalism because their pilot accidentally ran into our plane.
[This message has been edited by Fatty (edited 04-17-2001).]