Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: oboe on October 27, 2005, 08:55:07 AM
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Interesting development. I still wonder why Harry Reid was such a proponent of her.
But then, I still wonder why Robert Novak wasn't charged with the crime of publicly outing an undercover CIA operative, why Osama Bin Laden is STILL loose, why with a Republican-controlled White House and Congress we have such a huge budget deficit, and how on Earth could we have arrived at a place in history where we have an administration that advocates torture of prisoners.
As a dumbfounded, dying Steve McQueen said in The Sand Pebbles, "What the Hell happened?"
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but.... look at the bright side... we have let the stupid and useless and unconstitutional klinton "assault weapon/magazine ban" lapse.... we have passed the protection act for fireams manufacturers and we will probly not get two more ACLU commie supreme court judges like bader ginsburg on the court...
If we had some socialist we would have been just that much farther down the road to big government and trashing the constitution.
Just getting decent supremes will be worth any minor little political crap that will be forgotten in a few months.... supremes are for life and effect us more than presedents and their men.
If you vote for a socialist then make sure that you admit that you are for socialism and not just "fed up with the republicans" because that is what you are really doing.
lazs
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I'm bored, I'll bite.
The FBI couldn't find a guy hiding in the woods in Georgia... and they have an excellent capture rate of Top 10 suspects. You expect intel agencies to locate a trained operative hiding in foreign territory on some of the most inhospitable terrain on the planet. A reporter asked a Afghanistan vendor selling balloons to children what he thought about the $50 mil reward. His response was, "How many balloons would that buy? More than 10?" If he doesn't make any big mistakes and nobody flips on him, he'll probably remain at large forever.
We can even make a fun experiment out of it if finding somebody is supposed to be easy. Come to Texas & join me on a 160 acre paintball field. It's nice & flat terrain, plenty of trails, easy on the ankles. Now, you come find me. Now lets sprinkle in a bunch of people that don't understand you, your language, your customs, your technology, or your ideology. They may or may not be lying to you at any given time. Okay, now come and find me. Oh yeah, things around you may randomly explode and/or take a potshot at you. Good luck! See you when I choose to!
Budget deficiet? Well, yeah, Bush is a spend-a-holic just as bad as the rest of the politicans. Congress votes to give themselves annual pay raises. Who else has a job where you can simply vote to give yourself more money (besides CEOs & company boards) ? It's ridiculous. If they were really out to serve the greater good like they pretend (both sides), they'd do it for free. They're not exactly putting themselves in a hazardous situation like police & fireman, who get paid far, far less.
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If the assault weapon ban was truly useless, it wouldn't matter whether it was in effect or not - but, I know what you mean.
Both the Dems and Repubs seem to favor big government and large federal spending but the evidence of the past 20 years indicate that the Dems at least recognize the responsibility to pay for it.
I'm OK with the lawsuit shield against gun manufacturers as far as that goes. Suing gunmakers made about as much sense to me as suing GM or Ford for damages if one of their vehicles was being driven by an alcoholic driver and crashed. Not sure about protections extended to dealers, but I'm not familiar with the details so I won't comment.
But my view is what you brought up is the little political crap. (Except, I grant you that determination of SC justices isn't little). A huge federal deficit that hangs over generations of future citizens is not little crap in my eyes. Neither is going down in history with an administration that advocates the doctrine of preemptive attack and presses in FAVOR of the torture of prisoners. Unbelieveable, really.
I think the Patriot Act went a ways down the road towards trashing the Constitution. I don't see how the Repubs can be defended as protecting the Constitution in that respect.
btw, I just saw "Bowling For Columbine" for the first time this week. On the whole, I thought it was worth seeing. I didn't appreciate Michael Moore's sneak attack confrontational interview with Charleton Heston - in general in a debate like that, I'd rather see both sides well-prepared. I felt sorry for Heston. I enjoyed the interviews of the Michigan Militia mermbers, Marilyn Manson and James Nichols though. One of Moore's points really resonated with me - the thought that our society is paranoid with fear, made so by the news media. The movie came off to me as more anti-media, anti-American culture than anti-gun. Sure was amazed how Canadians don't feel the need to lock their houses-- even in a city. That's the way it was for me growing up in a small town in rural Minnesota.
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oboe... see... we really don't agree... what you see as little stuff is big stuff to me... what I see as little stuff (oh another politician actualy got caught being a crook... it's a miricle!) they are all crooks... you do admit that the supremes are important tho.. we agree.
as for "paying for it" very slippery... the socialists have never paid for anything... the government does not have any money...it is yours and my mopney they are spending and they are simply taking it away from us by force. Paying for it means..... they will simply take more money away from us.
now... let's examine how Bush and republicans raise deficets and then how the socialists do it....
in the current case we are funding an expensive war. This makes us have a big deficiet in the amount of money we are spending verses the amount of money we are extorting from our citizens. It is also a finite number.... once it is paid... the debt is gone (simplifying here... there is interest to worry about)...
Now...let's take the social programs that the socialists impose on us and "pay for" with a new tax.... the debt and tax never goes away... the program doesn't even stay at the same funding level (even adjusted for inflation)... they not only have not paid for anything (our money remember?) but...they have created a program that demands that it be funded in bigger and bigger amounts forever (social security for instance or welfare).... the programs and expenses grow after the people who started em are long dead.
lazs
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Originally posted by oboe
Interesting development. I still wonder why Harry Reid was such a proponent of her.
Bill Kristol was on The Daily Show a few days ago. He predicted her withdrawal.
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I have to be brief, but:
We were running a deficit BEFORE the war. The war was not the cause of the deficit, it just adds to it. But yeah, we disagree on the importance of issues. I'd be more suprised (concerned even) if we saw eye to eye on everything, wouldn't you? I bet we could agree that the Federal gov't should stop spending so much money though.
Indy, I understand it must be difficult to find someone in a foreign country who doesn't want to be found. But we managed to find Saddam didn't we? I don't think we are really looking for OBL anymore. Looks to me like he got away with his crime.
Funny about the Kristol prediction. GW never struck me as someone who would back off his original position, if he believed in it.
Why wasn't Novak charged with a crime? Anyone know?
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That Daily Show thing has just started running over here. Really enjoying it. The Bush administration really must be thanked for their contributions to political satire. Everybody is getting in on the act.
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The deficit was coming, war or not, because taxes had gone up, and revenue was going to go down.
I'm as pissed as anyone about the spending. I blame Bush for not vetoing a huge bunch of it and I blame the rest of the idiots up there for the massive porkage. One of any number of areas where I find cause to be pissed at Bush.
Saddam ain't bin Laden. BIG difference there. Way too many people hated Saddam for him to stay free for long. Saddam was used to surviving by keeping people scared of him. He had no power, so there was nothing left to fear. Way different than bin Laden, who is a charismatic leader with legions of demented followers who follow out of love rather than fear. You are attempting to compare two very different situations that are not in the least comparable.
Bush didn't back off, Miers QUIT. Big difference there too.
Novak hasn't been charged because NO ONE has been charged, and it remains to be seen if a crime was committed. In all honesty, you cannot blow the cover of a covert agent if that agent is neither covert nor has cover. She was called home YEARS ago, when it was suspected her identity was revealed during the Clinton administration. When she was "outed", she had been driving to CIA HQ daily in a Jag convertible for a few YEARS. Some cover. No crime has been committed because she was no longer covert and had no cover. This is another sad case of partisan scandal politics. And BITH sides are guilty of it.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Bush didn't back off, Miers QUIT. Big difference there too.
For all we know, the Bush admin asked Meirs to withdraw. It's the only way they could save face.
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Politicians and political figures are never sacked. They are asked to resign. Sounds a very similar situation here.
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Originally posted by Sandman
For all we know, the Bush admin asked Meirs to withdraw. It's the only way they could save face.
And you don't know that she didn't withdraw of her own accord either.
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watch what you wish for
:)
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Originally posted by Dowding
Politicians and political figures are never sacked. They are asked to resign. Sounds a very similar situation here.
The same holds true with upper level management in most companies. You screw up your are asked to resign. You get a nice severance package and you go away quietly. Helps to keep the lawyers out of the situation.
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Originally posted by oboe
But we managed to find Saddam didn't we?
Large flat country where the majority of the folks hated Sad'm.
UBL is in a very mountainous country where most of the locals think he is a profit of Allah. Very different situation.
We could find/kill him. We would have to kill a lot of so called "innocent" people to do it. Not to mention pissing off the Pakistanis. Are you OK with that?
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Originally posted by Dowding
Politicians and political figures are never sacked. They are asked to resign. Sounds a very similar situation here.
Not really the same thing. I expect that Miers will continue as White House Counsel.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
And you don't know that she didn't withdraw of her own accord either.
You're right. I don't know, but I do doubt it.
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Originally posted by oboe
btw, I just saw "Bowling For Columbine" for the first time this week
[/B]
Oboe, did you pick up on all the propaganda tricks? Did you even notice that Heston's clothing changes 3 times during that so called speech in CO?
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I'm a Conservative, not a neo-con. I voted for Bush twice, not because I thought he was such great man but because the alternative was unthinkable. This nomination is just one more reason why we should never see another member of this family sit in the Whitehouse.
This president, just like his father, has betrayed the Conservative/Reaganist agenda again and again. While I support the efforts on the WOT he has been an embarrassment on the domestic side. He had shown typical old school Republican fear of the Leftist smear machine. He can't debate himself out of a wet paper bag. He cannot effectively persuade the American People to support his agenda, i.e. Iraq, Social Security, etc.
Jeb is my governor and has done a fair job so far. He has stated that he wishes to return to private life. I say fine, go. I will not support him in any run for the Whitehouse. It is time to put a Reaganist conservative at the front of the Republican party and in the Whitehouse.
Reagan won the cold war and a true Reaganist can win the WOT and put this country back on track and put Western Leftist/Liberalism where it belongs, on the "Ash Heap of History".
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Originally posted by Sandman
Not really the same thing. I expect that Miers will continue as White House Counsel.
Bush has already stated that she will.
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Originally posted by oboe
Indy, I understand it must be difficult to find someone in a foreign country who doesn't want to be found. But we managed to find Saddam didn't we? I don't think we are really looking for OBL anymore. Looks to me like he got away with his crime.
Couldn't answer you on Novack. Haven't really followed it... but Saddam was sold out by one of his bodyguards. I was pointing out that the average Afghani doesn't understand what the price on Osama's head even means. Plus like many people pointed out, if you held a popularity contest, Osama would spank Saddam. I'd say we're still looking for him, in fact I've got friends slogging around in the mountains doing that right now, but I'm not sure if we'll find him before his kidneys fail.
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Well, going back to the original tag-line, I'm amazed and pleased. This is one of the first times that I can remember that I called the Senate about an issue - in this case asking the NC senators to oppose the Miers nomination - and what I wanted, rather than the exact opposite actually came to pass.
That said, I'll be honest that I'm hoping and praying that Bush will now stop chosing leftovers from the crony trough and actually nominate a:
A) Qualified
B) Experienced
C) Strict Constructionist
D) With a proven and tested track record.
- SEAGOON
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Clifra,
No, I didn't notice that his clothing changed during the NRA speech in CO. I'm not sure how significant that is, though? If his point was to show how insensitive the NRA was to hold a rally in Littleton so close on the heels of the massacre then fine, I agree - it was insensitive. Probably foolish from a PR perspective but that could be debated.
I forgot to mention I enjoyed the interview with the creator of South Park. I don't watch SP as its not my kind of humor but it's creator seemed to have a level head on his shoulders. And he didn't blame the tragedy on guns. Neither did Marilyn Manson, who I found interesting and well-spoken. Helped me to see the individual behind the shock rocker persona.
So what's the deal on Walmart's changed policy on hand gun ammo? Do they really not sell hand gun ammo anymore? And that is going to solve exactly what? I'm not sure.
He does seem to be a master at making people look bad. James Nichols, the self-styled patriot and revolutionary, practically ready to lead an armed anti-government uprising himself and he's never even heard of Gandhi! He puts a loaded 44 mag to his head and later says we have to be careful because there are wackos out there.
I enjoyed seeing the contrast in the interviews between the say nothing do nothing corporate spokespeople and the real emotion of some of the people who were involved in or touched deeply by the tragedy.
I liked his abbreviated U.S. history cartoon, and I liked the sequence detailing all the CIA plots involving overthrowing foreign governments and assassinating their leaders. Greed and Fear have certainly ruled the roost in our country for a long time.
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Originally posted by oboe
Clifra,
No, I didn't notice that his clothing changed during the NRA speech in CO. I'm not sure how significant that is, though? If his point was to show how insensitive the NRA was to hold a rally in Littleton so close on the heels of the massacre then fine, I agree - it was insensitive. Probably foolish from a PR perspective but that could be debated.
Point is most of what was said in that "speech" was not said in CO. It was said in other speeches made long before the Columbine incident. Fact is the rally in CO was scheduled before the Columbine incident. Is it right to cancel this event and cause all those companies and employees to lose that income due to having this event cancelled? My point is that Moore plays this game in every one of his films and books and he counts on his faithful audience not to catch this. Says a lot about what he thinks of their intelligence.
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I dunno - it was just the 'us' vs 'them' rhetoric in the speech that just about anyone could've predicted anyway. That said, the movie style was supposed to be a documentary so I think he should've stuck with what actually happened at the Littleton rally, not edit together a bunch of snippets from different speeches. I can see how you would fault him for that.
As far as the fairness of cancelling the already scheduled rally, I recall the movie saying that Marilyn Manson cancelled his last 5 tour dates due to the tragedy. Just a question of sensitivity - the Manson cancellation caused lost income too I'm sure.
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Oboe
So the Bush admin has come out an embraced torture?
Did I miss a story?
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Well, going back to the original tag-line, I'm amazed and pleased. This is one of the first times that I can remember that I called the Senate about an issue - in this case asking the NC senators to oppose the Miers nomination - and what I wanted, rather than the exact opposite actually came to pass.
That said, I'll be honest that I'm hoping and praying that Bush will now stop chosing leftovers from the crony trough and actually nominate a:
A) Qualified
B) Experienced
C) Strict Constructionist
D) With a proven and tested track record.
- SEAGOON
yup I'm right there with ya on that one goony
OTOH,
I love the fact that liberals are taking the time to point out that the right is falling apart over this. I havn't seen much mean spiritedness (that we see quite often on the left) from the right in reguards to the miers nomination. This goes to show that the right can have a discussion of ideas and what not.
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Oboe
So the Bush admin has come out an embraced torture?
Did I miss a story?
Washington Post editorial piece:
Vice President for Torture (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/25/AR2005102501388.html)
Also highlights from a story in the Boston Globe (http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2005/10/26/mccain_fights_exception_to_torture_ban/)
The Senate voted 90-9 three weeks ago to attach McCain's amendment to a military appropriations bill, in a bipartisan vote that was seen widely as a rebuke to Bush administration policies following detainee abuse scandals at Guantanamo Bay, Abu Ghraib, and elsewhere.
McCain's proposal would do two things. First, it would restrict military interrogators to using only techniques authorized in the Army Field Guide, imposing firmer limits on military prisons.
Second, it would prohibit torture and other forms of cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment of detainees in US custody anywhere in the world. That rule would extend to CIA agents and officials from allied governments.
Several weeks ago, the White House threatened to veto the military appropriations bill should the final version contain McCain's proposal, citing Bush's need for flexibility in setting policy for the treatment of prisoners in the war on terrorism.
I can barely believe it as I read it over again....
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oboe...http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/torture/view/
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Interesting.
Thanks for the info.
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Thank God there are still good men like John McClain in the GOP. It is their contrast that shows just how morally corrupt this administration is.
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McClain? I thought his name was McCain. If we're talking about the same guy, the one from Arizona who will do just about anything to make the media fawn all over him, regardless of what he really thinks.
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Holy Crap. I look at that, then I think of the "Our Leader" billboards that sprung up after the election. I mean holy, holy crap. Looks like we're not in Kansas anymore, Toto.
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What's amazing is how some of u derive the word "torture" from abuse. There's a difference. But yes please read between the lines. Our VP is advocating tying prisoners on their knees to the floor for hours at a time, then when their knees have so much blood build up hitting them in the knees with bamboo sticks. Yup that's the ticket.
The day we let a known terrorist loose because some ACLU lawyer argued that keeping him awake and not letting him sleep is torture is the day we will lose.
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Originally posted by Clifra Jones
Reagan won the cold war and a true Reaganist can win the WOT and put this country back on track and put Western Leftist/Liberalism where it belongs, on the "Ash Heap of History".
The WOT will never end.
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Most of the time I hear detainees referred to as "suspected" terrorists. That means not all of them are known terrorists. I wonder what the percentage of 'suspected' to 'real' terrorists is?
Anyway, what would be wrong with sticking to the techniques authorized in the Army Field Guide? Aren't we supposed to be the good guys?
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I called it when the nomination came out. She was a front. Plain and simple.
Her nomination has gotten everyone slighty right of middle in a froth and now they WILL ram home the strict constitutionalist over the bodies of any dem that THINKS about sillybustering the nomination. Now its a set peice. Game over. Good deal.
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Originally posted by oboe
Washington Post editorial piece:
Vice President for Torture (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/25/AR2005102501388.html)
Also highlights from a story in the Boston Globe (http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2005/10/26/mccain_fights_exception_to_torture_ban/)
I can barely believe it as I read it over again....
Ya know.. I'm not really in favor of torture... but given a situation like The Sum of All Fears... hook the bastiges' testicles up to the car batteries. Sometime ya just gotta do what ya gotta do.
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oboe... you really need to see "michaelmoorehatesamerica" it is a great movie and interviews the people that moore supposedly interviewed along with his fans.. In all fairness... you need to see the movie.... every thing that moore does is suspect because so many have debunked him and caught him in outright lies... MM hates America movie is a two thumbs up one that no one is saying is unfair or missrepresents anyone..
How would you feel for instance if you knew that, by law.. the NRA had to have their meeting... they are a corp. and it is corp law.. if they wish to change an annual meeting they needed to inform 4 million members by mail in 9 days that they had moved the meeting date. an insurmountable task...
And... why is it in poor taste to have it there anyway? They do not advocate school shootings.... they train millions of young people every year in gun safety. They advocate harsh penalties for gun crimes. what makes them a pariah to you?
see the movie and tell me what you think. I will pay for the rental if you will watch it.
lazs
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Laz,
Thank you for that offer - its not necessary for you to pay, but thank you anyway. I've never seen that one in the video store but I will take a look. You gave me a good tip on Firefly, after all. Though I would expect it was made by someone equally skilled at making people look bad, just on the other side, thats all. Is it at least amusing, like Bowling For Columbine is?
I don't think I consider the NRA a pariah. I just said it was probably insensitive to hold the gun rally there after the massacre. Marilyn Manson received a share of the blame for Columbine, and he cancelled the last 5 dates of his tour out of respect. Violent video games and movies were blamed as well. It might've been difficult but if the NRA wanted to cancel, postpone, or move it, they could've.
I do take a dim view of the NRA, but I was much more influenced by the Wayne LaPierre mass mailing in 1995 that was offended GH Bush to the point of resigning from the organization. And I recall a Minneapolis police chief I admired, Tony Bouza, denouncing them for insisting that 'cop killer' bullets remain legal. Long time ago but it was part of the impression that I formed at the time. I'm not a particularly harsh or vocal opponent of theirs however.
BFC didn't bend me outta shape about guns. I found it more about how wacky American culture is -- fueled by consumption driven by fear. It wasn't just fear of criminals - he had snippets of newscasts warning about Killer Bee invasions, severe weather, and some news station did on 'expose' on the danger of escalators! (They are waiting to grab and mangle you!) The public is bombarded with stories like this daily. I gave up watching network news years ago because of it.
Have you seen BFC? Or do you boycott MM films?
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Originally posted by oboe
some news station did on 'expose' on the danger of escalators! (They are waiting to grab and mangle you!)
They've killed more people than ephedra... and the FDA has banned ephedra.
http://www.cdc.gov/elcosh/docs/d0300/d000397/d000397.html
Yeah... I know, it's off topic. ;)
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Originally posted by oboe
I. And I recall a Minneapolis police chief I admired, Tony Bouza, denouncing them for insisting that 'cop killer' bullets remain legal. Long time ago but it was part of the impression that I formed at the time. I'm not a particularly harsh or vocal opponent of theirs however.
those bullets were made by ammo makers at the request of the police, the police wanted the bullets to kill bad guys who were wearing bullet proof vests, the police were upset the the ammo makers sold the bullets to the general public.
"cop killer bullets" is a miss-nomer, it should be "bad guy wearing a bullet poof vest killer bullets". but that is too long for a headline.
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oboe... there is no such thing as "cop killer bullets" and police chiefs are politicians not cops.
the movie is very interesting.... it goes out of it's way to be fair. It is painful for the guy doing it since he hates moore but gillet penn (of penn and teller) and his cameraman and a world famous documentary director (real documentaries not moore types) constantly badger the guy to stay honest... at one point penn tells him that if he missrepesents what he says he will hunt him down and kill him.... the cameraman threatens to quit when mike wilson does an interview under dishonest pretense.
The NRA and manson.... in the one case... the NRA was bound by law to hold the meeting by that date at that place or notify everyone 4+ million people!. They only had nione days after the shooting....
It was not a media event in any case... and... the NRA has never advocated violence with firearms much less school shootings... Now... take the now sensitive and calm manson.... this ahole advocates violence as a way of life... the shooters were big fans of his.... he was in fact a mentor.... he is far from the introspective innocent he portrays in the moore interview.... so he cancelled some dates? took him what, 5 minutes on the phone? and he did it in order to lay low not out of any sense of respect. If he thought it would sell records he woulda had a concert over in the school courtyard and danced on the blood stains.
If you can't find a copy for rent I would be glad to send you my copy and you could return it when you were done.
lazs
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The guy named his movie "Michael Moore Hates America", and you expect me to believe its fair? I'll look for it, but when I watch it I'll take it as seriously as I took Moore's film.
All the NRA leadership had to do was get together and pass some kind of resolution or amendment allowing them to change the date or cancel, postpone whatever. Leadership's hands are not really bound by organizational bylaws. I've found they can still do pretty much whatever they want and rationalize it or justify it and get away with it. Seen it over and over again.
Look at how quickly the NFL rescheduled the CHiefs/Dolphins game when Wilma threatened Florida. I bet that involved a lot of people and changes to contracts to pull off.
I can't defend Manson, because I don't know that much about him or what he says in his music. I've seen some footage of him, and he strikes me as a more vicious version of David Bowie or Alice Cooper. You wonder what day these rockers will finally reach the edge of the envelope they are pushing, and what it will look like. I was just surprised to see he spoke in complete sentences, and was fairly eloquent and understandable.
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hey lazs check your pm's.
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Originally posted by oboe
I can't defend Manson, because I don't know that much about him or what he says in his music. I've seen some footage of him, and he strikes me as a more vicious version of David Bowie or Alice Cooper. You wonder what day these rockers will finally reach the edge of the envelope they are pushing, and what it will look like. I was just surprised to see he spoke in complete sentences, and was fairly eloquent and understandable.
I would expect that you won't find many "shock" rockers that are as calculating as Manson. He realizes that controversy sells and he knows exactly what he's doing, IMHO.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
McClain? I thought his name was McCain.
Forgive my typo.
Yeah, the guy from Arizona. The only Republican with morals.
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Originally posted by rpm
Forgive my typo.
Yeah, the guy from Arizona. The only Republican with morals.
he's about as republican as Zel Miller is Democrat.
C'mon arent both sides just the least bit happy that this woman wont be on the SC?
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Originally posted by oboe
I can't defend Manson, because I don't know that much about him or what he says in his music. I've seen some footage of him, and he strikes me as a more vicious version of David Bowie or Alice Cooper. You wonder what day these rockers will finally reach the edge of the envelope they are pushing, and what it will look like. I was just surprised to see he spoke in complete sentences, and was fairly eloquent and understandable.
actually I rather liked his interview in "bowling for columbine" While I dispise him personally the guy doesnt act like he's had one too many "whip-its" and comes off as a wells spoken speaker.
I think some of his older music rocks but, havn't really been all that into him since then. His videos are another story.
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Originally posted by Sandman
They've killed more people than ephedra... and the FDA has banned ephedra.
http://www.cdc.gov/elcosh/docs/d0300/d000397/d000397.html
Yeah... I know, it's off topic. ;)
Hah! I checked this article over. First, it appears to cover BOTH elevators and escalators together. I didn't see any data for escalators alone.
Second, about 2 1/2 as many installers/maintenance people are killed per year as general public. The most common cause of death is a fall down an empty elevator shaft. This is a workplace safety issue, IMO, not a public safety issue. Sandy, your statement leads one to believe escalators are unsafe in normal operation, which is quite misleading. It's exactly what Michael Moore was pointing out in BFC as a big part of the problem with American culture.
This is my kind of thread. So many topics at once!
Agreed on the "cop killer" bullet label. Its an unfair name designed to influence your POV. Simply should've been called "body armor piercing bullets". I can see why the police don't want them in the hands of the general public. And if someone believes armed rebellion against the government will eventually be necessary, I can see why you'd fight for the right to have these.
I wonder how a John McCain/Zel Miller ticket would fare in 2008?
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oboe... probly half of the thousands of rounds I have at present will penetrate body armor. every legal hunting round sold will.
as for the NRA.. it was corprate law... they only had less than 9 days to change.
And... why should they? I don't get your's or moores point. the NRA had nothing to do with the shootings in columbine... it is arguable that manson contributed by suggestion tho. The NRA is exactly diametricaly opposed to what happened in columbine..
Of course manson would appear contrite and thoughtfull and respectful in the interview... then he would turn right around and use lyrics or accept pay from old lyrics that suggested that other kids do the same or worse than his fans at columbine..
his defense was... that while he suggested violence... he couldn't make people do anything so had no blame but... just out of respect he would lay low till it all blew over...
you and moore are saying that the NRA should stay away even tho they are and allways have.. advocate firearms safety and responsible ownership. I see no reason for the NRA to not meet... Maybe you can explain to me why that is?
There were propane bombs there too... should the propane council stay away for a while too? How bout... black trench coat manufacturers?
as for the title of the movie... You would have to see it to get it. There is a very funny part at the end having to do with the title of the movie and a world famous documentary maker.
you are right tho to watch anything billed as a documetary with sceptisism.
again.. if you want.. email me and I will send you the movie and you can send it back when you are done.
I would love to hear what you think of it... more so even than someone who agrees with me.
lazs
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Originally posted by oboe
Sandy, your statement leads one to believe escalators are unsafe in normal operation, which is quite misleading.
I'm going to have to do some digging to find the actual number, but I think there have been less than 20 people that died as a result of abusing ephedra. So, I'm going to stick with original statement that escalators have killed more people. :)
Yeah, you and I and most people around here know that escalators are generally safe, but I've read just enough about them to make sure my shoes are tied before I get on one. :)
Again... I'm off topic.
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If so many rounds can penetrate body armor already, then why the big fiss over it?
I'm not saying the NRA should've stayed away. It was totally their call, and they made it. The risk was being labelled insensitive. Not a big deal to me by any means.
Corporate law has almost much strength as wet toilet paper. When executives get together and decide they want or need to do something, it gets done.
You and I aren't always on the opposite sides of issues, I think. I appreciate your offer to mail the movie to me, but let me check around here first - the librabry, a couple of nearby video stores, etc.
Thanks!
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oboe... to put it simply... the anti gun nuts have never been accused of being too bright about the subject that they are so vehement about.. they generally have very sketchy and lazy views on firearms and, in this case.. ammo.. you may have noticed also that they tend to have a flair... more than a flair... for the dramatic. "cop killer bullet" sounds pretty darn good when you want to ban something... "hunting bullet" or "range safe" doesn't sound near as good. If all assault rifles had been called "plinkers" and were a bright and cheery color... they would have never noticed em... look at the mini 14... it is beyond their radar because... even tho it has the capability of the black evil ones...it is innocent loooking relatively.
as for corprate law.. or any law... again. Do you not think that "members" such as moore would not sue the NRA any time that they did not follow the exact letter of the law? seriously... do you?
you and I are on the same side of every issue... you just haven't realized it yet. I hold out great hope for you.
lazs
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I wouldn't say we're on the same side of EVERY issue, but yes, I think we agree on alot (the foolishness of MTBE as a gasoline additive appears to be another one - I take it your experience and knowledge of water treatment allowed you come to an informed opinion on that matter). But thank you for your faith in me.
This is a generalization and so will have exceptions, but I sorta think anti-anything nuts tend not to be too bright.
I really don't have any faith at all that organizational leaders are really bound by organizational law. I've seen it enough in my own experience, so that argument just won't hold water with me. There are numerous ways around any issue they want to get around - both above and below the table. Regarding the NRA Littleton rally, there were probably members who would've supported a location change, and probably members who would've vehemently opposed the change. They held the rally, and have been accused of being insensitive. Big deal. I'm sure they would've faced criticism from somewhere no matter what they did. I don't think I've been overly critical of them, though I personally would've supported a venue change. I tend to view it as a missed PR opportunity to put a more concerned face on the NRA.
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well.. you probly know more about corprate law than me but... you do realize that guys like moore are NRA members?
I would not put it past him to file charges if he was not notified by the absolute letter of the law of any change.
as for the rally.... I would be against it on one simple principal.... You can look like manson and like you feel guilty or... you can look like the NRA and say... If people went by our principles.... there would be no school shootings. The NRA had no compicity in the shootings and does more than anyone to prevent these types of things... to back down would imply the oppossite.
lazs