Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Mister Fork on October 27, 2005, 12:36:44 PM
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Hey everyone,
I know it's been done before, but in light of the new aircraft we're getting, can we please update the service dates for all? If you know of one, I'll edit the list, and repost it until we're sure it's right. I've bolded the ones that have always been debated, but I'd like to clarify all if possible.
What are we looking for?
SERVICE DATES - THE DATES THEY WERE FLOWN OPERATIONALLY AND ACTIVE IN A SQUADRON, NOT OFF THE FACTORY FLOOR OR IN TESTING OR FINISHED DEVELOPMENT.
Document proof - i.e. Page 243, para 2,...the Spitfire V was operational with X squadron in August of 1941. If you have months, please add.
Aircraft
USA
A-20G ... 5-42
B-17G ... 6-43*
B-26B ... 5-42
C-47A ... 12-41
P-38G ... ?
P-38J ... ?
P-38L ... 7-44
P-40B ... 1-41
P-40E ... 8-41
P-47D-11 ... 1-44?*
P-47D-25 ... 4-44
P-47D-40 ... 10-44?? - is this correct?
P-47N ... ?
P-51B ... 12-43
P51D ... 5-44?*
F4F-4 ... 41?
FM-2 ... 9-43
F6F ... 9-43*updated*
F4U-1 ... 10-42
F4U-1D ... 4-44
F4U-1C ... 4-45
F4U-4 ... 4-45
F6F-5 ... 7-44
SBD-5 ... 5-43?*
TBM-3 ... 1-42
Britian
Boston MK III ... 5-41
Hurricane Mk I ... 5-40*updated*
Hurricane IIC ... 4-41
Hurricane IID ... 6-42
Lancaster III ... 3-42*
Mosquito Mk VI ... 7-43
Seafire IIC ... 10-42
Spitfire Mk IA ... 6-38
Spitfire V ... 4-41
Spitfire Mk IX ... 7-42
Spitfire Mk XIV ... 1-44!*
Spitfire Mk XVI ... ?
Tempest V ... 5-44
Typhoon ... 6-42*
Soviet
Il-2 Type 3 ... 10-42
La-5FN ... 3-43
La-7 ... 6-44
Yak-9T ... 1-43
Yak-9U ... 3-44
Italy
C.202 ... 11-41
C.205 ... 1-43
IJA/IJN
A6M2 ... 7-40
A6M5b ... 3-44!*
D3A-1 ... ?-37!
Ki-61-I-KAIc ... 1-44!
Ki-84-la ... ?
Ki-67 ... 4-44!*
N1K2-J ... 1-45*updated*
Germany
Ar 234B ... 12-44
Bf 109E-4 ... 5-40
Bf 109F-4 ... 6-41
Bf 109G-2 ... 5-42
Bf 109G-6 ... 10-42
Bf 109G-10 ... 3-44
Bf 109G-14 ... ?
Bf 109K ...?
Bf 110C-4b ... 7-40
Bf 110G-2 ... 5-42
Fw 190A-5 ... 3-43
Fw 190A-8 ... 2-44
Fw 190D-9 ... 9-44
Fw 190F-8 ... 3-44?
Ju 88A-4 ... 12-40
Me 262 ... 7-44
Ta 152H ... 2-45
*NEW*
Vehicles
USA
LVT(A)2 ...?
LVT(A)4 ...?
M-3 ...?
M-8 ...?
M-16 ...?
Germany
Ostwind ...?
Panzer IV Type H ...?
Tiger I ...?
Soviet
T-34 ..?
Notes:
*B-17G ... 6-43; The B-17G did enter service in 1943, however the B-17G in AH has the stepped waist guns and improved tail turret of a 1944 B-17G. This shouldn't have too much impact on gameplay though, being mainly limited to the greater range of movement in the tail turret.
*P-47D-11 ... 1-44?; This is based on my recollections of statements made by others in the "Give the P-47D-11 a paddle bladed prop" threads. However, given that the AH P-47D-11 lacks the paddle bladded prop it is a decent approximation of a P-47D-5, which entered service in 3-43.
*P51D ... 5-44?; The P-51D entered production in 2-44, so it clearly did not enter service in 1-44. I have looked and looked for a service entry date or a theatre arrival date for the P-51D, but have not (shockingly so given the aircraft's fame), been able to find even a hind. I am guestimating a 3 month lag between entering production and entering service.
*SBD-5 ... 5-43?; The SBD-5 entered production in 2-43, so like the P-51D I am guestimating a 3 month lag from production to service. I only found this information tonight (of course, I only looked for it tonight ) and have to admit to being somewhat disappointed in HTC about it. The SBD-5 introduced the 1,200hp R-1820-60, which brought with it a noticable performance jump. The SBD-2 and SBD-3 that fought the Battles of Coral Sea and Midway were powered by a 1,000hp engine and the SBD-2 lacked the dual rear gun. At the same time as we have a late SBD, we have an early D3A. The D3A1 is the aircraft that the Japanese used at Pearl Harbor, Coral Sea and Midway, but like the US with the SBD a better version was to be produced in greater quantity. The D3A2 entered production in 8-42 and boosted the top speed of the D3A by 39mph. As it is in AH, the US gets a over boosted aircraft and is in an artificial position of technical superiority, or greater superiority, than they should be.
*Lancaster III ... 3-42; The .50 calibre guns in the AH Lanc's tail mark it as a late war Lancaster, probably 1944. However, that change, particularly in light of its paltry ammunition supply (I'd probably prefer four .303s with 4,000 rounds), shouldn't have too much of an impact on the game. Limiting early access to the Lanc based on the tail turret might be justified.
*Spitfire Mk XIV ... 1-44!; The Spitfire entered service with 610 Squadron on January 3rd, 1944. 3-44 is the date of the first kill (a Ju88), but it was operational and on patrols prior to that.
*Typhoon ... 6-42; The only significant change, in the context of AH, that I am aware of is the change to a bubble canopy in late 1943. The performance of the Typhoon Mk Ib, so far as I can tell, remained relatively unchanged. The major difference between a 1942 Typhoon and a 1944 Typhoon was in it's reliability, which is a non-issue in AH.
*A6M5b ... 3-44!; The only difference between an A6M5a, which entered service in 1-44, and an A6M5b is the switching of one of the 7.7mm machine guns in the cowling for a 12.7mm machine gun. Substituting the A6M5b for A6M5b is reasonable. The A6M5 entered service in 8-43, but was significantly less pretected than the A6M5b. Nonetheless, this switch is probably still reasonable.
*Ki-67 ... 4-44!; The Ki-67 entered service with the IJA in 4-44. The first IJN usage as a torpedo bomber is in 10-44. Most Ki-67s were built in 1945.
*N1K2-J ... 11-44?; Production began in of the N1K2-J began in 6-44 and I have seen data that claiming that 60 were delivered in 1944. My best source for N1K2 combat entry is 150 miles away from me right now.
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Some of those dates are mine.
The only one that I would revise for certain right now is the N1K2-J. The first combat operations I can find for it are 1-45. I have no information on service dates prior to January, 1945 for it.
Spitfire Mk XIV service was in very small numbers until later in 1944.
The Spitfire Mk XVI is, for all purposes, identical to the Spitfire LF.Mk IXe so the earlist service date of either should work. Some time in 1944 I'd think, but I don't have the date in my head. Dan probably knows off the top of his.
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Our Ki-61 is no longer the KAIc. It is now Ki-61-Id and it enter service in 1944 (i dont have the month)
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Im not sure how usefull it is to a CM to see 1938 for a Spit IA, whats he supposed to do with that, when the war started in 9-39? I would change that to 6-40 (after fall of France).
Hurricane IA should be 5-40 for the same reason 5-40 is the start date for the western front proper, unless you want scenarios involving the Phoney War?
Also, ETO and PAC dates are needed seperately, I would think. P-38J in ETO and P-38J in PAC are not the same. Unless you dont want to get that deep into it, thats your call.
Also, the 109G-10 is being removed in the next patch, and replaced with the 109K-4, at least, thats the indication.
*Also, it is not usefull (imho) to get too anal about sub type dates. Example: the A6M5b, yes, 3-44 sounds right, but there will never be numerous versions of the A6M5 in AH so, just use a more "generic" A6M5 date. 8-43 from Rabaul would be more sensible?, same with the F6F Hellcat, F6F-3 was used in 9-43 in the Solomons.
...and of course "date in service" does not tie the hands of a CM or CT staffer, its just meant as a guideline, thats all. I think thats worth repeating, just because its "Solomons January 44" doesnt mean any one a/c HAS to be there.
I guess my old CM wiring is still partially active, your post brought out some old issues. :)
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Originally posted by 1K3
Our Ki-61 is no longer the KAIc. It is now Ki-61-Id and it enter service in 1944 (i dont have the month)
Our Ki-61 is the the exact same Ki-61 it always was, it is just now labeled by the correct Japanese designation. It would be nice if the Ki-84 were as well.
The version didn't change, the name was just corrected.
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If services dates are different for theatres, post them too. :)
Any info is helpful, especially for all bolded aircraft and the vehicles.
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Originally posted by Mister Fork
Hey everyone,
I know it's been done before, but in light of the new aircraft we're getting, can we please update the service dates for all? If you know of one, I'll edit the list, and repost it until we're sure it's right. I've bolded the ones that have always been debated, but I'd like to clarify all if possible.
What are we looking for?
SERVICE DATES - THE DATES THEY WERE FLOWN OPERATIONALLY AND ACTIVE IN A SQUADRON, NOT OFF THE FACTORY FLOOR OR IN TESTING OR FINISHED DEVELOPMENT.
Document proof - i.e. Page 243, para 2,...the Spitfire V was operational with X squadron in August of 1941. If you have months, please add.
Aircraft
USA
A-20G ... 5-42
B-17G ... 6-43*
B-26B ... 5-42
C-47A ... 12-41
P-38G ... ?
P-38J ... ?
P-38L ... 7-44
P-40B ... 1-41
P-40E ... 8-41
P-47D-11 ... 1-44?*
P-47D-25 ... 4-44
P-47D-40 ... 10-44?? - is this correct?
P-47N ... ?
P-51B ... 12-43
P51D ... 5-44?*
F4F-4 ... 41?
FM-2 ... 9-43
F6F ... 9-43*updated*
F4U-1 ... 10-42
F4U-1D ... 4-44
F4U-1C ... 4-45
F4U-4 ... 4-45
F6F-5 ... 7-44
SBD-5 ... 5-43?*
TBM-3 ... 1-42
Britian
Boston MK III ... 5-41
Hurricane Mk I ... 5-40*updated*
Hurricane IIC ... 4-41
Hurricane IID ... 6-42
Lancaster III ... 3-42*
Mosquito Mk VI ... 7-43
Seafire IIC ... 10-42
Spitfire Mk IA ... 6-38
Spitfire V ... 4-41
Spitfire Mk IX ... 7-42
Spitfire Mk XIV ... 1-44!*
Spitfire Mk XVI ... ?
Tempest V ... 5-44
Typhoon ... 6-42*
Soviet
Il-2 Type 3 ... 10-42
La-5FN ... 3-43
La-7 ... 6-44
Yak-9T ... 1-43
Yak-9U ... 3-44
Italy
C.202 ... 11-41
C.205 ... 1-43
IJA/IJN
A6M2 ... 7-40
A6M5b ... 3-44!*
D3A-1 ... ?-37!
Ki-61-I-KAIc ... 1-44!
Ki-84-la ... ?
Ki-67 ... 4-44!*
N1K2-J ... 1-45*updated*
Germany
Ar 234B ... 12-44
Bf 109E-4 ... 5-40
Bf 109F-4 ... 6-41
Bf 109G-2 ... 5-42
Bf 109G-6 ... 10-42
Bf 109G-10 ... 3-44
Bf 109G-14 ... ?
Bf 109K ...?
Bf 110C-4b ... 7-40
Bf 110G-2 ... 5-42
Fw 190A-5 ... 3-43
Fw 190A-8 ... 2-44
Fw 190D-9 ... 9-44
Fw 190F-8 ... 3-44?
Ju 88A-4 ... 12-40
Me 262 ... 7-44
Ta 152H ... 2-45
*NEW*
Vehicles
USA
LVT(A)2 ...?
LVT(A)4 ...?
M-3 ...?
M-8 ...?
M-16 ...?
Germany
Ostwind ...?
Panzer IV Type H ...?
Tiger I ...?
Soviet
T-34 ..?
Notes:
*B-17G ... 6-43; The B-17G did enter service in 1943, however the B-17G in AH has the stepped waist guns and improved tail turret of a 1944 B-17G. This shouldn't have too much impact on gameplay though, being mainly limited to the greater range of movement in the tail turret.
*P-47D-11 ... 1-44?; This is based on my recollections of statements made by others in the "Give the P-47D-11 a paddle bladed prop" threads. However, given that the AH P-47D-11 lacks the paddle bladded prop it is a decent approximation of a P-47D-5, which entered service in 3-43.
*P51D ... 5-44?; The P-51D entered production in 2-44, so it clearly did not enter service in 1-44. I have looked and looked for a service entry date or a theatre arrival date for the P-51D, but have not (shockingly so given the aircraft's fame), been able to find even a hind. I am guestimating a 3 month lag between entering production and entering service.
*SBD-5 ... 5-43?; The SBD-5 entered production in 2-43, so like the P-51D I am guestimating a 3 month lag from production to service. I only found this information tonight (of course, I only looked for it tonight ) and have to admit to being somewhat disappointed in HTC about it. The SBD-5 introduced the 1,200hp R-1820-60, which brought with it a noticable performance jump. The SBD-2 and SBD-3 that fought the Battles of Coral Sea and Midway were powered by a 1,000hp engine and the SBD-2 lacked the dual rear gun. At the same time as we have a late SBD, we have an early D3A. The D3A1 is the aircraft that the Japanese used at Pearl Harbor, Coral Sea and Midway, but like the US with the SBD a better version was to be produced in greater quantity. The D3A2 entered production in 8-42 and boosted the top speed of the D3A by 39mph. As it is in AH, the US gets a over boosted aircraft and is in an artificial position of technical superiority, or greater superiority, than they should be.
*Lancaster III ... 3-42; The .50 calibre guns in the AH Lanc's tail mark it as a late war Lancaster, probably 1944. However, that change, particularly in light of its paltry ammunition supply (I'd probably prefer four .303s with 4,000 rounds), shouldn't have too much of an impact on the game. Limiting early access to the Lanc based on the tail turret might be justified.
*Spitfire Mk XIV ... 1-44!; The Spitfire entered service with 610 Squadron on January 3rd, 1944. 3-44 is the date of the first kill (a Ju88), but it was operational and on patrols prior to that.
*Typhoon ... 6-42; The only significant change, in the context of AH, that I am aware of is the change to a bubble canopy in late 1943. The performance of the Typhoon Mk Ib, so far as I can tell, remained relatively unchanged. The major difference between a 1942 Typhoon and a 1944 Typhoon was in it's reliability, which is a non-issue in AH.
*A6M5b ... 3-44!; The only difference between an A6M5a, which entered service in 1-44, and an A6M5b is the switching of one of the 7.7mm machine guns in the cowling for a 12.7mm machine gun. Substituting the A6M5b for A6M5b is reasonable. The A6M5 entered service in 8-43, but was significantly less pretected than the A6M5b. Nonetheless, this switch is probably still reasonable.
*Ki-67 ... 4-44!; The Ki-67 entered service with the IJA in 4-44. The first IJN usage as a torpedo bomber is in 10-44. Most Ki-67s were built in 1945.
*N1K2-J ... 11-44?; Production began in of the N1K2-J began in 6-44 and I have seen data that claiming that 60 were delivered in 1944. My best source for N1K2 combat entry is 150 miles away from me right now.
Think ya missed the B-24
Bronk
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Geez Bronk, you didn't need to quote that whole monster list just for a one line post.
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Yak 9 U
Whilkst the 9U was commited to production in April44 the first batch was plagued with engine troubles and regimental conversion was slow to the type.
The first unit to be issued with Yak9U's (42GIAD)was not coverted for service until August 44.
It is possible that some other units were issued later but converted earlier than 42GIAD
Noting that the title is service dates I think 7/8-44 is as early as could be expected on this type.
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AC Service Dates (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=137572)
P-47D-11
P-47D arrives in the UK April 1943.
USAAF Fighters of WW2 Micheal O'Leary.
D-5 Spring 1943- summer 1943
D-11 Fall 1943- early winter 1943
The thing about P-47s, and in particular the Ds ,is that once a new variant entered service the previous variants were then upgraded with kits supplied to the squadrons. Since the D-11 doesn't have the paddle blade prop it can stand in for D-5. The only real exception is range (drop tanks), which in ToD and scenarios should mean something.
My suggestion prior to the inclusion of the P-47N (which is all but useless for WETO ToDs) was to give the D-11 the Hamilton PB prop and add a D-5 or C-5.
My point though is the P-47D-11 can stand in for a D-5 (April '43) if not the late '43 early '44 for squadron service. I don't think it should stand in for earlier variants because these would be variants without the 'upgrades'.
P-51D
P-51D May 1944.
375th and 376th Fighter Sqns.
Typhoon...
Typhoon Sabre IIa +9lbs April 1943. The Hawker Typhoon and Tempest. Mason
The AH2 Typhoon has a max of 7 lbs boost but its top speed and climb show this must be in error. Its unknown to me what engine / boost (thus what year for squadron service) the AH2 Typhoon should have.
See this thread: Typhoon speed performance (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=151881&highlight=typhoon)
From those with more expertise then I, they seem to think it's some sort of hybrid in terms of engine, prop, max boots, speed and climb. Its certainly far exceeds the performance of an early Ib...
109G-2...
The first units, III/JG 52 and I/JG 54, received their G-2s in June 1942. The first loss reports are from July 7th and 8th 1942. (Prien & Rodeike)
Squadron Service Entry-date: June 1942
109G-6...
Bf 109 G-6 'early' (framed canopy short tail etc..)
G-6 Entered service and saw action with II/JG 53, II/JG 77, JG 27 and JG 51 in February 1943. (Prien & Rodeike)
Squadron Service Entry-date: February 1943
Bf 109G-14 ... ?
G-14 entered service with II/JG 11 and Stab/JG 53 in July 1944.
Squadron Service Entry-date: July 1944
Bf 109K ...?
K-4 entered service with III/JG 4, Stab+I,II,III,IV/JG 27 and II/Jg 77 in October 1944. (Prien & Rodeike, H. Valtonen)
110C-4/b...
Only 20 Bf 110C-4 were fitted with DB601N.
This total applies to both C-4 and C-4/B, even for the C-7 which was a "serialized" C-4/B. Only 7 out of 39 aircraft were equipped with DB601N.
Erprobungsgruppe 210, the fighter-bomber unit in 1940, flew several different variants of the Bf 110. The 'C-6', which 1. Staffel, ZG 1, brought with them upon redesignation to 1./Erpr. Gr. 210, had a 30 mm. MG 101 Kanone in place of the two 20 mm. Kanone. Stab and 2nd Staffel were equipped with Bf 110 D-0/Bs from the outset. As the BoB progressed, and replacement aircraft were issued to the unit, the 'D-0's started to be equipped with the uprated DB 601 N engine. However as late as 27 September 1940 there was evidence of the unit using a 'D' with a 601 A engine (Gruppenkommandeur Martin Lutz's S9+DH shot down at Tarrant Gunville on that date). In the later stages of the BoB, the unit were flying the new 'E' version, evidenced by it beginning to appear in the damage/loss lists. Also the unit recorded the loss of a Bf 110 C-7 in November. The 'C-7' was an earlier-version Bf 110, sent to a repair facility, outfitted with bomb racks, and re-designated as a 'C-7' variant. Hence you will find 'C-7's with W.Nr. that relate to earlier sub-variant types. The bible on all of this is the Petrick/Mankau book:
'Bf110/Me210/Me410'..
The standard BoB 110C...
110-C January 1939.
An Illustrated Anatomy of the Worlds Fighters. Green and Swanborough
190A-5...
FW190A-5 February 1943.
1./JG26
Fw 190A-8 ...
Dec '43..
However, the A8 was not cleared for C-3 injection / Erhöhte Notleistung until 20.01.44 in both stages (1.58ata / 1.65 ata).
C-3 injection was only used in the low SC gear, but not in the second stage. On 20.01.44 BMW cleared the usage for the high blower stage too, for all FW190.
Fw 190F-8...
F-8 production began in March '44 deliveries to squadron and squadron service came quick, with in the month...
Ta-152...
Ta-152H on 27 Janurary 1945.
III/JG301 and Stab JG301.
Dietmar Harmann "Focke-Wulf Ta 152", ISBN 0-7643-0860-2
I am out of time I will try to fill in more gaps later...
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Originally posted by Squire
Im not sure how usefull it is to a CM to see 1938 for a Spit IA, whats he supposed to do with that, when the war started in 9-39? I would change that to 6-40 (after fall of France).
Hurricane IA should be 5-40 for the same reason 5-40 is the start date for the western front proper, unless you want scenarios involving the Phoney War?
Hurricane MK I January 1938.
111 SQN The Hawker Hurricane. Francis K Mason.
+12lbs boost as of March 1940. A.P. 1590B/J.2-W
All Merlin III fitted with C.P props by August 1940.
Spitfire MK Ia August 1938.
19 SQN . The British Fighters Since 1912. Francis K Mason.
+12lbs boost as of March 1940. All Merlin III fitted with C.P props by August 1940.
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to date...
Aircraft
USA
A-20G ... 5-42
B-17G ... 6-43*
B-24 ... ?
B-26B ... 5-42
C-47A ... 12-41
P-38G ... ?
P-38J ... ?
P-38L ... 7-44
P-40B ... 1-41
P-40E ... 8-41
P-47D-11 ... 3-43(D5)/1-44*updated*
P-47D-25 ... 4-44
P-47D-40 ... 10-44?? - is this correct?
P-47N ... ?
P-51B ... 12-43
P51D ... 5-44?*
F4F-4 ... 41?
FM-2 ... 9-43
F6F ... 9-43*updated*
F4U-1 ... 10-42
F4U-1D ... 4-44
F4U-1C ... 4-45
F4U-4 ... 4-45
F6F-5 ... 7-44
SBD-5 ... 5-43?*
TBM-3 ... 1-42
Britian
Boston MK III ... 5-41
Hurricane Mk I ... 5-40*updated*
Hurricane IIC ... 4-41
Hurricane IID ... 6-42
Lancaster III ... 3-42*
Mosquito Mk VI ... 7-43
Seafire IIC ... 10-42
Spitfire Mk IA ... 8-38 *updated*
Spitfire V ... 4-41
Spitfire Mk IX ... 7-42
Spitfire Mk XIV ... 1-44!*
Spitfire Mk XVI ... ?
Tempest V ... 5-44
Typhoon ... 4-43*updated*
Soviet
Il-2 Type 3 ... 10-42
La-5FN ... 3-43
La-7 ... 6-44
Yak-9T ... 1-43
Yak-9U ... 7/8-44 *updated*
Italy
C.202 ... 11-41
C.205 ... 1-43
IJA/IJN
A6M2 ... 7-40
A6M5b ... 3-44!*
D3A-1 ... ?-37!
Ki-61-I-KAIc ... 1-44!
Ki-84-la ... ?
Ki-67 ... 4-44!*
N1K2-J ... 1-45*updated*
Germany
Ar 234B ... 12-44
Bf 109E-4 ... 5-40
Bf 109F-4 ... 6-41
Bf 109G-2 ... 6-42 *updated*
Bf 109G-6 ... 2-43 *updated*
Bf 109G-10 ... 3-44
Bf 109G-14 ... 7-44 *updated*
Bf 109K-4 ... 10-44 *updated*
Bf 110C-4b ... 1-39 *updated*
Bf 110G-2 ... 5-42
Fw 190A-5 ... 2-43 *updated*
Fw 190A-8 ... 2-44
Fw 190D-9 ... 9-44
Fw 190F-8 ... 4-44 *updated*
Ju 88A-4 ... 12-40
Me 262 ... 7-44
Ta 152H ... 1-45 *updated*
*NEW*
Vehicles
USA
LVT(A)2 ...?
LVT(A)4 ...?
M-3 ...?
M-8 ...?
M-16 ...?
Germany
Ostwind ...?
Panzer IV Type H ...?
Tiger I ...?
Soviet
T-34 ..?
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The updated Hurricane Mk I date presumes that the Battle of France is the earliest scenario that will be done. I personally recall a CT setup for the Invasion of Norway which is earlier and the Hurri I was used there too.
The Hurri I should be usable in any of the earlist setups involving the British.
The T-34/76 we have is from late 1942 as I recall, but the changes to the T-34/76 are pretty minor so it should be usable in anything other than a Winter War setup and at this point we lack all the aircraft needed for that as well. T-34/76 is good for the entire Soviet war.
The F6F-5 is only usable in 1943 as a stand in. When/if we get an F6F-3 it should not be considered a 1943 fighter.
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Ok, here are some.
I wont bother with page #s or authors, if you want to dispute the dates go ahead, no skin off my nose:
A6M5 Zero* 8-43 "A6M Zero in action" Squadron Signal.
F6F** 9-43 "Hellcat Aces" Osprey
P-51B (CBI) 8-44 "Mustang Aces Pac" Osprey
P-51D (CBI) 1-45 "Mustang Aces Pac" Osprey
P-51D (PACIFIC) 1-45 "Mustang Aces Pac" Opsrey
P-51B (RAF Mustang III) 2-44 "Mustang Aces RAF" Osprey
P-51D (RAF Mustang IV) 3-45 "Mustang Aces RAF" Osprey
P-47D*** (PACIFIC) 6-43 "Mustang/Thunderbolt Aces Pac" Osprey
P-38G (PACIFIC) 1-43 "Lightning Aces Pac" Osprey
P-38J (PACIFIC) 2-44 "Lightning Aces Pac" Osprey
P-38L (PACIFIC) 10-44 "Lightning Aces Pac" Osprey
P-38G (ETO) 1-43 "Lightning Aces ETO" Osprey
P-38J (ETO) 12-43 "Lightning Aces ETO" Osprey
Spitfire IA **** 5-40 (ETO Dunkirk) "Spit I Aces" Osprey
Hurricane IA 5-40 (ETO France or Norway )
Bf 109K-4 10-44 "Bf 109F-K Aces" Osprey
Spitfire XIV ***** 9-44 "Late Spit Aces" Osprey
Tempest 6-44 "Typhoon/Tempest Aces" Osprey
Typhoon IB (late)****** 6-43 "Typhoon/Tempest Aces" Osprey
Spitfire LF IXE/XVIE ******* 6-44
Ki-84 ********8-44 (CBI)/ 10-44 (PAC) "IJAAF Aces" Osprey
Me262 10-44 (Kommando Nowotny) "German Jet Aces" Osprey
_____________________________ ___________________________
Notes:
*A6M5
**F6F-3
***P-47D-2
****First regular clashes with LW after this date.
*****Deployed to Holland 9-44 for 1st real non ADGB duty (anti V-1 raids). 1-44 was operational with 610 Sqn in Britain.
******First use of Tiffie IB with bombload.
******* Spit LF IX was 3-43, "E wing" not untill @6-44.
******** PAC date is Phillipines invasion.
I will do a seperate post on the British Fleet Air Arm later, bz right now to get all the dates at the moment.
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The updated Hurricane Mk I date presumes that the Battle of France is the earliest scenario that will be done.
The presumption doesn't only lay there, it comes with the fact that there are currently no AH planes modeled for BoF or earlier.
I was going to post the opposite for the Spit 1a. It should read as March or latest August '40 rather then '38. It does have cp prop and 12 lbs boost (actual in game performance many vary :p)...
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No RAF Hurricanes in Norway prior to May 1940. So its a mute point.
5-40 is the earliest date the RAF is going to be fighting the LW ETO, unless you want to get into Phoney War stuff. In addition the AH Hurricane IA of 1938? didnt have a 3 bladed prop or +12 lbs boost. So the dates wrong anyways.
Re the Fw 190A-8, I cant find anything prior to 4-44 for that one with JG2 and JG 26, but if its a sub, or if you have other info, fine and dandy.
From Crumpp: "The FW190A8 was produced from Feb. 1944"
And lets keep it civil everybody, I dont think Mr. Fork wants a 15 page flame-war over any of this. I will endevour to "object" once and then leave it at that with any of the dates provided. Thats my pledge. :D
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Questions
B-17G ... 6-43*
B-24J ... ?-41*
SBD-5 ... 5-43?*
P-47N ... ?-45*
Lancaster III ... 3-42*
Spitfire Mk XIV ... 1-44*
D3A-1 ... ?-37*
P-47D-40 ... 10-44?
Aircraft[/b]
USA[/b]
A-20G ... 5-42
B-17G ... 6-43*
B-24J ... 41?*
B-26B ... 5-42
C-47A ... 12-41
P-38G ... 1-43 *updated*
P-38J ... 12-43(ETO) 2-44(PTO) *updated*
P-38L ... 7-44
P-40B ... 1-41
P-40E ... 8-41
P-47D-11 ... 3-43(D5) to 1-44(D11) *updated*
P-47D-25 ... 4-44
P-47D-40 ... 10-44*
P-47N ... 45?*
P-51B ... 2-44(ETO),8-44(CBI)
P51D ... 1-45(CBI&PTO),3-45(ETO) *updated*
F4F-4 ... 1-45
FM-2 ... 9-43
F6F ... 9-43 *updated*
F4U-1 ... 10-42
F4U-1D ... 4-44
F4U-1C ... 4-45
F4U-4 ... 4-45
F6F-5 ... 7-44
SBD-5 ... 5-43?*
TBM-3 ... 1-42
Britian[/b]
Boston MK III ... 5-41
Hurricane Mk I ... 5-40 *updated*
Hurricane IIC ... 4-41
Hurricane IID ... 6-42
Lancaster III ... 3-42*
Mosquito Mk VI ... 7-43
Spitfire Mk IA ... 8-40 *updated*
Seafire IIC ... 10-42
Spitfire V ... 4-41
Spitfire Mk IX ... 7-42
Spitfire Mk XIV ... 1-44!*
Spitfire Mk XVI ... 6-44
Tempest V ... 6-44 *updated*
Typhoon IB ... 6-43 *updated*
Soviet[/b]
Il-2 Type 3 ... 10-42
La-5FN ... 3-43
La-7 ... 6-44
Yak-9T ... 1-43
Yak-9U ... 7/8-44 *updated*
Italy[/b]
C.202 ... 11-41
C.205 ... 1-43
IJA/IJN[/b]
A6M2 ... 7-40
A6M5b ... 8-43 *updated*
D3A-1 ... ?-37
Ki-61 ... 1-44
Ki-84-la ... 8-44(CBI,10-44(PTO) *updated*
Ki-67 ... 4-44!*
N1K2-J ... 1-45 *updated*
Germany[/b]
Ar 234B ... 12-44
Bf 109E-4 ... 5-40
Bf 109F-4 ... 6-41
Bf 109G-2 ... 6-42 *updated*
Bf 109G-6 ... 2-43 *updated*
Bf 109G-10 ... 3-44
Bf 109G-14 ... 7-44 *updated*
Bf 109K-4 ... 10-44 *updated*
Bf 110C-4b ... 1-39 *updated*
Bf 110G-2 ... 5-42
Fw 190A-5 ... 2-43 *updated*
Fw 190A-8 ... 2-44
Fw 190D-9 ... 9-44
Fw 190F-8 ... 4-44 *updated*
Ju 88A-4 ... 12-40
Me 262 ... 10-44 *updated*
Ta 152H ... 1-45 *updated*
Vehicles[/b] *NEW*
USA
LVT(A)2 ...2-44
LVT(A)4 ...3-44
M-3 ...3-41
M-8 ...9-42
M-16 ...5-43
Germany[/b]
Ostwind ... 8-44
Panzer IV Type H ... 8-44
Tiger I ...8-42
Soviet[/b]
T-34 ... 2-43
Theatres of Operations
PTO - Pacific
ETO - Europe
CBI - China-Burma-India/CHINA-BURMA-INDIA
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If the F6F-5 is going to get bumped back to be used in place of earlier versions then the same should be done to the Ki-61. I am at work now and can't look up service dates for earlier Ki-61 versions though.
I would mark the Spitfire Mk XIV as 9-44 in practicality at this point. It was held back for anti-diver work prior to that.
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Ar 234B
- 8.44[/b]
Erich Sommer flew the first combat mission with the Ar234 on 2 August 1944, a photo-recce flight over Normandy bridgehead...
The Luftwaffe conducted reconnaissance operations with the new Ar-234Bs through the fall, including some reconnaissance missions over England, beginning in October, to determine if the Allies were preparing a follow-up amphibious landing in the Netherlands. Despite the activity, it wasn't until 21 November 1944 that Allied pilots reported spotting an Ar-234B, when P-51s escorting bombers over Holland observed one of the jets overflying their formation. Detected, the German pilot immediately applied power and disappeared.
Bomber sorties did not take place until Christmas Eve, when nine Ar 234Bs, each carrying a single 500 kilogram (1,100 pound) bomb, took off from a German airbase single file to attack Liege in Belgium, in support of the Wehrmacht's ground offensive then underway in the Ardennes. Such attacks continued until the weather became too nasty in early January to allow operations to be safely continued.
An inventory of Ar-234s at that time indicated 17 of them in service, with 12 configured as bombers and 5 as photo-reconnaissance machines. This quantity was surprisingly small, since 148 had been delivered to the Luftwaffe by the end of 1944. The small number of the aircraft in service was almost certainly due to the disruptions caused by Allied air attacks on German industrial and military infrastructure.
So your choice:
Recce as early as August '44.
Bomber sorties began Dec '44
For ToD 234 Recce Sorties over the Normandy Bridgehead would be fun (no bombs of course). I believe the 234 was even used in the Norway/Tirpitz scenario as recce.
Me 163
Erprobungskommando 16 - first operational mission flown on 13 May '44 by Späte in the all-red Me 163B V-41.
I think that for events, scenerios and ToD using opration testing units s as equal to 'squadron service' would be a mistake. I only offer the above because you may or may not use the same critera in the CT.
I. Gruppe JG 400 was established on August '44. First combat action on 10 Sept '44 where a lone 163 attacks a single B-17 that flew out of formation. Next action 11 Sept '44 where 7 163's attack a formation of 1131 bombers and 900 escort fighters. Three B-17's were said to have been shot down (unsure of the details).
Your choice here as well:
May '44 operation testing
August '44 for the establishment of JG400
Sept '44 for first combat
Ju 88A-4
The Ju 88A-4 entered production in early '41. KG 51 was one of the first bomer units to recieve the Ju 88A-4. The Ju 88A-4 first major combat mission was flown on 22 Jun '41 on the Ost front.
The Ju-88s involved in the Battle of Britain were a mix of Ju-88A-1s and some Ju-88A-5s. Going into the first half of '41 the Ju 88A-5 equipped nearly all Ju 88 squadrons (some A-1s were converted to A-5 standard) which was about the same time the A-4 entered squadron service.(The A-4 is 15 mph faster then the A-1 and upto 21 mph faster then the A-5, slighly heavier bombload).
I don't recall exact service entry date for the A-4 with KG 51 but I believe April/May '41is close enough. Maybe someone has an exact date.
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Yeah, but it is kid of moot with things like the Ju88 and Ju87. They are going to get used all the time just because there is no other option.
It is too bad too as the Hurri I has a hell of a time with the Ju88A-4.
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It's not just those aircraft either...
See what I posted on the 110C-4/B above.
So with Ju 88A-4, Ju 87D-3, 110C-4/b and the poor Hurricane is fighting up hill all the way. Even the Spitfire 1a doesn't reach 12lbs boost performance.
The LW were even flying sorties in E-1s and E-3s during BoB (all though up graded to E-4 standards in most cases).
A BoB event is one of the worst in terms of a 'historical accurrate plane set'. Its still fun to play though.
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Ok, so far.
Bf 110C-4/b 1-39? Typo? I saw no source for 1939.
Spitfire IA 8-40, well, you could go with that to differentiate it from the BoF/Norway fighters, although its real 1st in service date is before that, really spring 1940, with 100 octane and 3 bladed Rotols or De-Hav props. I dont think it matters all that much.
Ki-61 was used in New Guinea in "Summer 1943" out of Wewak, but I dont have a set date for it. 6-43? would be close. 1st US combat report engaging it seemed to be 7-43. - Osprey.
Mr. Fork, despite all the posts and sources you can find, you still do the ? thing with the Spit 14. Its Jan 1944 with 610 Sqn. Any book will confirm that. That being said...9-44 is its deployment date to Holland, which may be a more reasonable date for it, imho.
Lancaster I was 3-42. Im not sure there is a big diff between it and a Lanc III. Thats your call. Im not a Lanc expert.
D3A and B5N Kate are both 12-41 (Pearl Harbor), thats a no brainer.
P-47N 6-45 (PACIFIC) Le Shima off Okinawa.
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Bf 110C-4/b should be Aug '40. The 110c entered service in '39.
However, the 110C4/b w / DB601N is an aircraft that was even rarer then the Ta-152... In AH it has a DB601N...
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Ya, AH really needs a garden variety Bf 110C-3. The trouble with AH is the desire to have so many of the ac multi-purpose, which leads to some later and or rarer types. Im surprised the 109 isnt the 109E-7, so it can carry a bomb.
...and a He-111 or Do-17 is very much in need for any BoB setup. Old news.
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One of the problems I'm seeing here is confusing combat deployment with squadron deployment. For example, the 318th FG received their P-47Ns in April of 1945. They deployed for combat in mid May, destroying 34 Japanese aircraft over Kyushu on the 25th.
New units were usually equipped a month or two prior to combat deployment.
P-47D-25s were first issued to the 8th AF Groups on May 22, 1944. The 56th received 3 of them. By the beginning of August only about 40% of the 56th were flying D-25s or D-26s, most of the 56th was still using the D-22-RE and D-23-RA. Evansville built D-26s began trickling into units in early July, even though they were arriving in Britain prior to D-Day (they had to be assembled, test flown and have new radios installed). Issue dates for the D-27s and D-28s literally overlapped, but all three (D-27-RE, D-28-RA and D-28-RE) types entering combat units by late August. D-30-REs and D-30-RAs (RE indicates built in Farmingdale, RA means built in Evansville) were in Britain by late October of 1944. Actual combat debut is in question, but not later than late November. D-30s were very busy during the Bulge offensive, mostly flying in the 9th AF.
My regards,
Widewing
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The E-4 in AH can carry a bomb (250kg, possibly 4 x 50kg in the future) as it could in real life (E-4/B). You must mean a drop tank, in that case some E-4s (even E-3s) were brought up to E-7 standard (could carry a DT). Some Emils in BoB were fitted with a DTs.
The thing with the DB601N (109E-4/N, 109E-7/b, 110C-4/b (C-7), 109F-2) is that it required C-2 / C-3 fuel.
But I wish for a proper BoB planes set to include the Do-17z, He-111 and Ju 88A-1 or A-5, Ju 87B and of course a 110C-3 or 4 (with DB601As) as well.
No matter what the plane set or time frame IMHO its always more useful to have an aircraft that is most representative of what was really there. You are right in that in AHs early development the holes in the plane set were thought of in terms of what roll does X-planet fill in the main. When this is the case what difference does it make to have a Ju 88A-4 or 110C-4/b?
It's not until you start to plane events, scenarios etc.. that this stuff matters. Scenario players are only a small portion of AHs player base and for the most part they could make do with what there was. ToD may change that, who knows.
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One of the problems I'm seeing here is confusing combat deployment with squadron deployment. For example, the 318th FG received their P-47Ns in April of 1945. They deployed for combat in mid May, destroying 34 Japanese aircraft over Kyushu on the 25th.
I agree, we kinda touched on that in the Spitfire Variants thread:
The dates I am really interested in is 'squadron deployment' or 'full squadron service'. The problem with production dates and/or delivery dates is you can sometimes find gaps of 'some months' between those dates and 'squadron service' and/or first combat/losses.
The problem with just first combat/loss dates are you may have 1 or 2 squadrons with a particular aircraft who are flying 'combat missions' but for whatever reason they have not made contact.
Most of the dates in Forks list are carried over from a previous thread that look for combat (first claims / first losses).
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Originally posted by Bruno
I agree, we kinda touched on that in the Spitfire Variants thread:
Most of the dates in Forks list are carried over from a previous thread that look for combat (first claims / first losses).
Indeed. The P-38J was being issued to combat units in November of 1943, albeit in small numbers initially. The first operational P-38H fighters were being deployed in May/June of 1943. When the 78th FG deployed to Britain, they did so initially with the P-38F. However, before their Lightnings (and most pilots) were to shipped to North Africa, they had received 4 of the new P-38G-3-LO types. This places deployment at mid to late November of 1942. As to the P-51B, the 354th FG deployed to Britain with their Mustangs in October of 1943, but was not classified as combat ready for another five to six weeks (the early P-51Bs had lots of bugs to iron out).
My regards,
Widewing
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"SERVICE DATES - THE DATES THEY WERE FLOWN OPERATIONALLY AND ACTIVE IN A SQUADRON, NOT OFF THE FACTORY FLOOR OR IN TESTING OR FINISHED DEVELOPMENT."
Well I think we need clarification as to wether you want "operationally in a combat zone", or not. Personally I would go with ops in a combat area, but thats me. Flying ops in a non combat zone to me means zip for figuring dates for a WW2 setup. You could be flying "operationally" in the Panama Defense Zone with P-47Ns in 1-45, doesnt mean they belong in a Phillipines setup.
*As for the P-38G, I found a source that states 11-42 in Tunisia on ops same book as above, didnt see it 1st time around.
"They deployed for combat in mid May, destroying 34 Japanese aircraft over Kyushu on the 25th".
*Go with 5-45 then for the P-47N.
Mr. Fork, I have 10-44 for the FM-2 deployed into combat PACIFIC. It was "in service" before that on USN CVEs...but not in combat, so you need to clarify maybe what you want...
If we get within a month we are doing good, the list is meant as a guideline not The Holy Bible. Its intended to help those with not a lot of sources to ballpark it.
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F4F-4 began deliveries on 12/31/41. After the Coral Sea battle squadrons aboard Pearl Harbor based fleet carriers received the F4F-4. Midway was largely (perhaps totally) fought with the F4F-4. So, I would state squadron service date as 4/42 (aboard the Saratoga and Enterprise) and 5/42 for Hornet and Yorktown, with combat debut early 6/42. While we do not have an actual Martlet I, FAA Wildcats saw combat in December of 1940 (Christmas day to be precise). I suppose the closest we would have to the early Martlet I would be the F4F-4 limited to the four gun option. For scenarios we can readily generate the Martlet III, V (F4F-4/FM-1) and VI (FM-2).
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
P-47D-25s were first issued to the 8th AF Groups on May 22, 1944. The 56th received 3 of them. By the beginning of August only about 40% of the 56th were flying D-25s or D-26s, most of the 56th was still using the D-22-RE and D-23-RA. Evansville built D-26s began trickling into units in early July, even though they were arriving in Britain prior to D-Day (they had to be assembled, test flown and have new radios installed). Issue dates for the D-27s and D-28s literally overlapped, but all three (D-27-RE, D-28-RA and D-28-RE) types entering combat units by late August. D-30-REs and D-30-RAs (RE indicates built in Farmingdale, RA means built in Evansville) were in Britain by late October of 1944. Actual combat debut is in question, but not later than late November. D-30s were very busy during the Bulge offensive, mostly flying in the 9th AF.
I searched for overseas deployment dates for the P-47D-40-RA and found few references. Many never left CONUS. As to squadron use in the ETO or MTO, I saw no dates prior to 1/45. I'll keep looking, but I would use January of 1945 as the baseline for now.
My regards,
Widewing
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I searched for overseas deployment dates for the P-47D-40-RA and found few references. Many never left CONUS. As to squadron use in the ETO or MTO, I saw no dates prior to 1/45. I'll keep looking, but I would use January of 1945 as the baseline for now.
I can't find much on it either. Most of my books mention the D-40-RA but no squadron service or squadron delivery/deployment dates.
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Originally posted by Bruno
I can't find much on it either. Most of my books mention the D-40-RA but no squadron service or squadron delivery/deployment dates.
From I can determine, most if not all P-47 squadrons rotated back to CONUS from Europe in mid 1945 left their P-47s behind. Some were completely re-equipped with P-47D-40s upon return. I believe that it's probable that no P-47D-40 with a 45XXXXX serial number deployed to Europe and with the P-47N being rapidly placed in service, I doubt any went to the SWPA or PTO. It's possible some made it to the CBI, but this theater generally lagged behind the rest in terms of getting the latest aircraft. The 1st Air Commando Group was still flying a few razorback Jugs when Japan surrendered.
While I have no conclusive proof, I'm still leaning towards believing that only 44XXXXX serial number P-47D-40-RA fighters made it to Europe prior to the end of the war. This group, or block of aircraft numbered just 200, with one being turned over to the RAF for evaluation and at least 2 more being written-off in accidents stateside. That leaves just 197 to be issued to combat units.
My regards,
Widewing
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Thanks for all the dates guys. I guess for reference with Aces High - service dates are operational in squadrons and ready for combat. Whether they saw combat that month may be a moot point, but when creating scenarios, I guess we should be look at combat dates.
So, when I have the combat dates, I'll have those numbers updated and post again and ask for a sticky. :)
Was Japan using IJN planes before Pearl Harbour in other conflicts?
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I will give you a quick rundown of what I have for the Fleet Air Arm, and you can add that to the Brits if you like.
Sources as above and here: http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/Home.html
Hellcat 12-43 (ETO)
F4F (Martlet) 9-41 (ETO)
FM-2 (Wildcat VI) 6-44 (ETO)
Seafire III? 11-43 (ETO) (Source On Target Profiles #5)
F4U-1 4-44 (ETO)
F4U-1D 4-45 (PACIFIC)
Hurricane I (Sea Hurricane I sub) 3-41 (ETO)
Hurricane IIC (Sea Hurricane II sub) 10-42 (ETO)
TBM Avenger 2-43 (ETO)
*In response to the IJN Q, they were at war with China prior to Pearl Harbor, but I really think any date prior to 12-41 is academic at best for PAC.
*The AVG went into action for the 1st time in 12-41 "Flying Tigers".
As for the dates, I think some compromise is probably in order, for the most part, you want "deployed overseas" dates, or "first combat mission" dates, as long as they are somewhere "near reality". Like I say, you dont want the date of a USA based sqn in Seattle, you want to know when they had arrived in Theater ETO or PTO and were doing something, and you want to stay away from "the factory was making them" dates. I wouldnt sweat it too much, any dates are better than nothing. Do the best you can.
It should always be emphasised that anybody doing a setup should do a bit of legwork and check OOBs on their own anyways, the list is a handy quick guide, and exceptions should always be made for a good design.
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The F4U-1 I think is wrong for the (PTO), should be 2/43.
10/42 is too early, hell Gaudalcanal was still being contested then.
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Originally posted by Squire
I will give you a quick rundown of what I have for the Fleet Air Arm, and you can add that to the Brits if you like.
Sources as above and here: http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/Home.html
F4F (Martlet) 9-41 (ETO)
G36 Martlets were in combat long before 9/41. From your website link:
"British Wildcats claimed their first victory on 25 December, 1940, almost a full year before the first American Wildcats saw action at Wake Island. On this occassion, Martlet I BJ562 of 804 squadron flown by Lt RHP Carver shot down Ju88 in Scapa Flow area, landed in a bog 1 mile south of Loch Skail. The kill was shared with Sub Lt TRV Parke."
My regards,
Widewing
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Ya, I opted for ship borne use, which was 9-41. I guess either is ok.
Forgot about the USMC F4U-1, it really should be 2-43, same source as above thats when they combat debuted "in theater" in the Solomons, prior to that they are not really in a combat zone.
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Originally posted by Squire
Ya, I opted for ship borne use, which was 9-41. I guess either is ok.
Forgot about the USMC F4U-1, it really should be 2-43, same source as above thats when they combat debuted "in theater" in the Solomons, prior to that they are not really in a combat zone.
Exactly.
My understanding is the Marine sqauds got the F4U-1 and a few weeks to train and then headed for the canal.