Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Seagoon on November 01, 2005, 02:38:04 PM
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[Caveat: the following will probably only be of interest to evangelicals and those who don't happen to believe that "all religions are the same" and are not currently the Prince of Wales.]
I was contacted by email by a SBC missionary friend in Indonesia who sent me the following article and told me that over the past few months, things have gotten progressively worse for Christians throughout Indonesia (the world's largest Muslim country), he said that the latest round of attacks including the recent beheading of 3 teens has left the community shocked and numb. Local Imams are apparently either encouraging further action or telling the "central government" authorities to "back off." Anywho, if you're interested you might want to send a letter or an email to the Indonesian consulate, address below.
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WASHINGTON, Oct. 29 /CWS/ -- International Christian Concern has learned that the pattern of persecution against Christians in Indonesia has taken a dramatic turn for the worse with the beheading of 3 Indonesian Christian high school girls, Yarny Sambual, Tresa Murangke & Alfina. Two others were attacked as well but survived. The survivors also had their throats slit (one in serious condition).
ICC has been reporting on the increase in persecution towards Christians in Indonesia over the last couple months. Radical Islamists have been increasingly forcing Churches to close with and without help from local authorities.
Things have gotten so bad that on Oct. 25, that the Secretary of the "Indonesian Churches Together" sent out an SOS appealing for the world's prayers for Christians in Indonesia.
Now comes this horrible news we received overnight that 5 Indonesian High School Girls were attacked in Poso (Sulawesi) with three of them being beheaded.
Poso experienced a brutal wave of persecution from '98 to 2002" with hundreds murdered and a 1000 or so homes burned down. 2003-2004 saw a series of assassinations of pastors and Christian leaders.
The hidden background to all this is the funding of radical Imams, mosques, and pesantrens (Islamic boarding schools) by Saudi Arabia. Although Muslims and Christians had good relations for hundreds of years, since the advent of Saudi influence in Indonesian Islam there has been wave after wave of death and destruction.
This same pattern is repeated in Pakistan. Now thanks to the work of Freedom House, it has been found that the same influence is being spread in US mosques.
All this while the Saudi's spend millions of dollars each year in the US trying to convince US citizens on TV ads and through the efforts of Washington's top lobbyists of their undying friendship with the people of the US.
We would ask all concerned individuals to contact the Indonesian embassy to politely ask for the protection of Christians in Poso as well as to end the pattern of Church closings in West Java, Indonesia.
Embassy of Indonesia, Washington DC
Ambassador: Duta Besar
Minister: Andri Hadi
2020 Massachusetts Ave NW
Washington DC 20036
202-775-5200
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For a Link to the Freedom House (a non-partisan, non-denominational group) report on Saudi influence referenced above: click here (http://www.freedomhouse.org/religion/news/bn2005/bn-2005-01-28.htm)
For a local report from the Jakarta post on the slayings: click here (http://www.thejakartapost.com/detailheadlines.asp?fileid=20051101.A02&irec=3)
(please keep in mind that the JP's readership is almost entirely Muslim)
- SEAGOON
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seagoon, it was sort of being discussed here:
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=163521
but by read my reply there... by all means bring these sick bastards into the public eye. hopefully more will quit feeling sorry for the muslim SOB's and see what they truly are. evil sadistic bastards.
may they have 72 hot coals shoves into their anuses in hell, like they deserve
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Ah but Islam is a religion of peace, yes? :rofl
Sad. Funny how we have to tolerate them, yet they wont tolerate us.
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Forget the coals, let them have their virgins. Living for eternity with a household full of women you can't have sex with sounds like hell. The book says they're virgins and if I recall correctly, it doesn't specifically mention giving approval to make them non-virgins... I figure the real situation is that those Muslim men on their way to paradise are going to show up and find out that they're really Mr. "honey-do" for a whole bunch of women who don't really *need* anything (it's paradise, remember?) but who still want their man to prove his devotion through countless repetitive acts of personal sacrifice. Sounds like a pretty busy afterlife to me.
I'll take a city in the clouds, wings, and a harp over that eternal guilt-trip nagfest anyday.
:lol
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72 virgins? Sounds like alot of crying with no satisfaction= Hell
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Originally posted by LePaul
Ah but Islam is a religion of peace, yes? :rofl
Sad. Funny how we have to tolerate them, yet they wont tolerate us.
The christians allways have been peacefull.
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Sorry, didn't mean to repeat a thread.
However, rather than wishing they'd all go away in the most unpleasant fashion. I'd rather see us collectively work to do all we can to end the massive Saudi campaign to fund new mosques worldwide and then flood them with Wahabbi material. Considering they absolutely ban the importation of all Christian religious materials into Saudi Arabia and forbid the building of new churches, or non-Islamic religious gatherings (other than those on foreign compounds by registered foreigners) that would only seem to be equitable.
Hating them right back, while it may satisfy our frustration particularly at ongoing acts of awful barbarism, isn't going to produce any change at all. But on the other hand, a real commitment to resisting the spread of evil - and a willingness to actually call it that - combined with a concerted effort to introduce lasting worldview change in their own society, rather than watching ours get progressively overwhelmed, will. If you think that's impossible, may I remind you that Indonesia was a country converted to Islam by concerted Islamic "missions" in the first place. Personally I'd say, if you are appalled by what's going on in places in the 10/40 window like Indonesia, then you need to support the efforts of the men and women who are working to lift the veil of darkness that has lain on those nations for far too long.
- SEAGOON
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Straff,
Well no they have not always been peacefull but the crusades were a long time ago.
When was the last time a christian extremists blew themselves up and took a ton of people with them?
Christians may have been a problem at one time. They are not really now.
(atleast in the world of terrorism, and to you bananas that are going to say abortion clinics, try thinking about scale and numbers before posting that stupid argument)
No other religion right now has as many nutballs doing stupid crap like the muslem religion.
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Yeah! And we should collectively work to do all we can to end the massive Vatican campaign to fund churches all over the world and spread the Roman Catholic doctrines of tyranny and intolerance. Those nosy buggers tried to tell our representitives in government what laws to pass and not pass vis a vis homosexual unions.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Yeah! And we should collectively work to do all we can to end the massive Vatican campaign to fund churches all over the world and spread the Roman Catholic doctrines of tyranny and intolerance. Those nosy buggers tried to tell our representitives in government what laws to pass and not pass vis a vis homosexual unions.
And to start, we should stop huffing paint thinner!
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
No other religion right now has as many nutballs doing stupid crap like the muslem religion.
I'm wondering how that works out if we calculate nutballs per capita. AFAIK, there are more muslims than christians on the planet. Stands to reason they would have more nutballs as well.
Anyway...
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Sounds to me like it is a very small part of the people that are the cause of this...
Reminds me of a more violent version of the black church burning thing that was going on a few years ago.
the difference there is it is not as much of a police state there, so it is more difficult to catch everyone.
The biggest problem is the rebels from the philippines and Indonesia working together now, Makes it tougher for the 3rd world governments from stomping them out,
I am defently not pro Islam, they need a real make over of there religion,
But the woe is me attitude of the christian missionary's, is a bear to live with sometimes.
Btw not to argue to much, but.. from my understanding the Jakarta post is written for English speaking readers, A lot of missionaries and business people read it, not a lot of Muslims...
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Originally posted by Sandman
I'm wondering how that works out if we calculate nutballs per capita. AFAIK, there are more muslims than christians on the planet. Stands to reason they would have more nutballs as well.
Anyway...
Name even small groups of Christian nutballs that blow people up on a regular basis.
Christian nutballs that stick withen the laws and try and push their nutball ajenda don't count
(I am not a christian BTW, but I think Christianity is pretty harmless at this point, and most are good people, not that most Muslims are bad but alot of them are.)
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This is why my eyes will NEVER see The Pyramids, Jerusalem, in person.
BTW, sending letters to a Muslim and myself being a Catholic will have ZERO impact. They are what they are, a bunch savages.
Karaya
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Name even small groups of Christian nutballs that blow people up on a regular basis.
5- Flamebaiting, trolling, or posting to incite or annoy is not allowed.
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Thought better of it... nevermind.
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Hola Sandman,
Originally posted by Sandman
I'm wondering how that works out if we calculate nutballs per capita. AFAIK, there are more muslims than christians on the planet. Stands to reason they would have more nutballs as well.
Anyway...
Actually, it depends on how you define "Christian," if one includes Roman Catholicism in that definition, then there are more Christians than Muslims worldwide (according to the 2003 CIA factbook):
Religions:
Christians 32.84%
(Roman Catholics 17.34%,
Protestants 5.78%,
Orthodox 3.44%,
Anglicans 1.27%)
Muslims 19.9%
Hindus 13.29%
Buddhists 5.92%
Sikhs 0.39%
Jews 0.23%
other religions 12.63%
non-religious 12.44%
atheists 2.36%
In terms of growth, Islam is growing faster than Christianity, largely because most of the zero indigenous population growth areas are in countries that were traditionally Catholic or Protestant and more importantly because Muslims are free to proselytize throughout the world (and are pouring billions in state sponsored petrodollars into that effort), while conversion from Islam is illegal in most Islamic nations. In other words, we give them free reign to spread Islam, but conversion from Islam is illegal in all Muslim countries, and a death penalty offense in most.
It has been conservatively estimated that well over 30% of the umma (the Muslim faithful) support the idea that violent means should be used in the pursuit of Jihad and the majority support the Quranic ideal of one worldwide Islamic Caliphate.
Now if we want to adopt the line that all of this has been blown out of proportion by Zionist/Christian propaganda, and slash the estimate of Muslims actively supporting violent Jihad to just 10%, which most people would recognize is a ridiculously low estimate, then you are still talking about
at least 114,000,000 people.
There simply isn't a violent worldwide Christian movement to establish Christian hegemony. We have no parallel to the Muslim Brotherhood, no Christian Jihadis rushing off to foreign countries to blow themselves up for Christ. When someone claiming to be Christian does resort to violence in a particular nation in support of an agenda, then the worldwide Christian community falls all over itself to be the first in front of a camera or a microphone to condemn the action. In the Balkans and Kosovo, nations that Muslims would call "Christian" supported the Muslim rebels and bombed the supposedly Christian ethnic Serbs.
Are there violent nutcases in the Christian community? Most assuredly, but they are isolated, seldom reach beyond a small community, and are universally scorned by the greater body of Christ. When they act, orthodox theologians are quick to point out that there is no biblical basis for using arms to establish the Kingdom. On the other hand, in Islam, the conservative scholars are the ones who are quick to point out that Jihad is enshrined in the Quran, and that Mohammed himself lead the first series of campaigns. The idea that Islam is a non-violent religion is an idea advanced only by liberal Muslims who interpret the Quran in ways that neither the Hadiths, Shariah Law, or any of the major historic schools of Quranic interpretation support. Exegetically, it would be roughly the same as claiming that the U.S. Constitution teaches Communism.
So, all that to say Sandy, there simply isn't a comparison. Christians and Christianity may irritate the living daylights out of modern American materialists*, but there is no basis in fact for claiming that they are just as violent as Muslims. Ringing your doorbell on Saturday morning to hand you a tract or upseting your school board meeting with complaints about the curiculum hardly compare to diving airliners into the WTC and blowing up nightclubs.
- SEAGOON
* I speak here from experience. When I was an atheist, I personally found evangelicals to be more irritating than other group of people on earth.
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I stand corrected.
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Originally posted by eagl
Forget the coals, let them have their virgins. Living for eternity with a household full of women you can't have sex with sounds like hell. The book says they're virgins and if I recall correctly, it doesn't specifically mention giving approval to make them non-virgins... I figure the real situation is that those Muslim men on their way to paradise are going to show up and find out that they're really Mr. "honey-do" for a whole bunch of women who don't really *need* anything (it's paradise, remember?) but who still want their man to prove his devotion through countless repetitive acts of personal sacrifice. Sounds like a pretty busy afterlife to me.
I'll take a city in the clouds, wings, and a harp over that eternal guilt-trip nagfest anyday.
:lol
OMG sir that is the funniest thing I've read in a long time! :rofl
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* I speak here from experience. When I was an atheist, I personally found evangelicals to be more irritating than other group of people on earth.
Haven't been to a PTA or school board meeting lately, have yah?
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Thrawn,
Originally posted by Thrawn
5- Flamebaiting, trolling, or posting to incite or annoy is not allowed.
This comment really is beyond the pale.
I pastor a church which is almost entirely made up of military families. I can think of at least two Christian SF men who died in the last year, because they didn't take the shot when Afghans were using their own families as human shields.
These are men who would and do gladly lay down their own lives to save the lives of strangers, and who would rather die themselves than knowingly take the life of a child. To compare them with demon driven Jihadi barbarians who set out to specifically maim women and children is low even for this forum.
You know, over the past year in speaking with men who've come back from Iraq and Afghanistan and who have shared their frustrations and heart aches in fighting this war, I can't tell you how many times I've wished they could just be taken out of the way and sent somewhere safe so that the Jihadis could deal directly with the Western idiots who think the Jihadis are the "good guys." But that isn't possible, so they and their families must continue to sacrifice in order to protect the right of people to heap approbrium and criticism on them.
My friend you and I don't even begin to merit what those despised "Christians in the US Military" are doing for our sakes. I can only thank God that I've been made to realize that fact.
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by Thrawn
5- Flamebaiting, trolling, or posting to incite or annoy is not allowed.
4- Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users and HTC. Flaming or abusing users is not tolerated.
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5- Flamebaiting, trolling, or posting to incite or annoy is not allowed.
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Jihad, schmihad, time for a good old fashioned crusade!!
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I apologise for my troll. In my haste to feed my ego, I didn't realise I was implying that the US military was comprised of nutballs, for that I also apologise.
"Name even small groups of Christian nutballs that blow people up on a regular basis."
IRA, the Lord's Resistance Army of Uganda.
Seagoon, I was responding to GtoRA2's question. Are their small groups of Christians in the US military that blow people up on a regular basis? He didn't specify motivations (honourable or not) nor did he specify the sex, age, validity as combatants or anything else regarding the people being blown up.
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Yeah, but the crusade was to retake something important to Christianity.
Maybe seagoon knows the answer, but I don't.
Besides Jerusalem, what other place in the world is important to christianity, but over run with non-christians?
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Are their small groups of Christians in the US military that blow people up on a regular basis? He didn't specify motivations (honourable or not) nor did he specify the sex, age, validity as combatants or anything else regarding the people being blown up.
Jeeze. Now the folks gotta fill out a questionaire beore they get blown up?
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Straff,
Well no they have not always been peacefull but the crusades were a long time ago.
I was not thinking only of the crusade but more as the whole history think of : "un roi une foi " or "dieu est mon droit" "tuez les tous dieu reconnaitra les siens"
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Originally posted by Thrawn
I apologise for my troll. In my haste to feed my ego, I didn't realise I was implying that the US military was comprised of nutballs, for that I also apologise.
"Name even small groups of Christian nutballs that blow people up on a regular basis."
IRA, the Lord's Resistance Army of Uganda.
Seagoon, I was responding to GtoRA2's question. Are their small groups of Christians in the US military that blow people up on a regular basis? He didn't specify motivations (honourable or not) nor did he specify the sex, age, validity as combatants or anything else regarding the people being blown up.
The surgeon general sayz teh huffing of paint thinner is bad fer yer brain
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Originally posted by straffo
I was not thinking only of the crusade but more as the whole history think of : "un roi une foi " or "dieu est mon droit" "tuez les tous dieu reconnaitra les siens"
henh. I dunno whut the froggie just said, but it sounds ta me like he's askin' us to blow him up. Somebody give him one of thrawns questionaires...
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Yeah! And we should collectively work to do all we can to end the massive Vatican campaign to fund churches all over the world and spread the Roman Catholic doctrines of tyranny and intolerance. Those nosy buggers tried to tell our representitives in government what laws to pass and not pass vis a vis homosexual unions.
Yes and we know how you guys LOVE your gays!:lol
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Originally posted by RightF00T
72 virgins? Sounds like alot of crying with no satisfaction= Hell
It's Virginians... 72 Virginians. Who'd want them?
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Hello Again Thrawn,
Thank you for your apology.
You listed the following as examples of "small groups of Christian Nutballs who blow people up on a regular basis":
Originally posted by Thrawn
IRA, the Lord's Resistance Army of Uganda.
Nothing in the original IRA charter identifies them as a Christian organization. In fact, they were so heavily riddled with Marxists, the first IRA split occurred between those who wanted to join the Republic and those who wanted to form a Communist state. A better example would have been one of the Protestant counter groups like the UDA. For the most part however, that particular conflict is ebbing, the IRA even signed a disarmament agreement this year.
The Lord's Resistance Army is not even vaguely Christian, Kony was heavily influenced in his childhood by an animistic mishmash of Shamanism and Vodoo which had a thin veneer of Christian names applied. For instance, he has always practiced polygamy, divination, polytheism, and any number of practices completely opposed to Christianity. At present, as even Infidels.org notes, Kony is incorporating Islam into his black bag of abominable practices:
"Currently, the Lord's Resistance Army launches operations from the Sudan. Over the past few years, lorries full of weapons and ammunition arrive, from Sudan's regular army, at Kony's main encampment. Young teenagers engage in spiritualistic regimens at the training sites, but they are now given military training with automatic rifles and machine guns--certainly a deviation from Alice Lakwena's earlier military strategy. The decision toward heavier armaments seems to point to uncertainty about the imminent coming of the Silent World. Perhaps Joseph Kony's spiritual beliefs are changing, influenced by his Muslim protectors. Maybe the appeal of seventy-two virgins, in Allah's heaven, feeding pomegranates to zealous warriors is a better vision of Paradise for Joseph Kony and his holy warriors. Sudanese support seems to have had a profound impact on the LRA's main persona. He has now even incorporated tenets of the Islamic faith into his religious practices! According to eyewitness reports, LRA soldiers use rosaries to pray, yet also bow towards Mecca as Muslims. While faithful Muslims turn a blind eye, Kony's rebels observe the two Sabbaths they have created, on Friday and Sunday. Restrictions of the Muslim faith are ignored; the traditional Acholi religion is still practiced by the LRA's leader with a heavy dose of divination and magic ritual. (Divination is a dying offense in parts of the Muslim world.) It has been reported that Mr. Kony keeps an ample stock of snakes, turtles, and lizards, for just such mediumistic purposes." (Source: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_petraitis/spirit_war.shtml )
The Sudanese are using the LRA to fight a proxy war in Uganda precisely because Uganda is still mostly Christian and Animist and along with Nigeria and Southern Sudan, forms an impediment to the flow of Islam southwards.
In any event, as I mentioned to Sandman above, while you might find a few regional crazies fighting ethnic wars and claiming to be some variety of (generally non-evangelical) Christian, you have no parallel to the Muslim Brotherhood which networks together hundreds of thousands of Jihadis worldwide. Or the fact that states like Saudi Arabia are spending Billions to promote the theology of Jihad worldwide - can anyone think of a "Christian State" which uses its revenue to promote the violent triumph of Christianity? Large numbers of young men from churches in Kansas are not flying off to Saudi Arabia or Pakistan to blow up Muslims. On the other hand men from Mosques throughout the Arab world are flying off to blow up infidels throughout the world, and that catch-all term includes not only Christians but Atheists, Buddhists*, and any non-Muslims.
- SEAGOON
*For instance, Jihadis are now currently operating in Southern Thailand, were their enemies are Buddhists and the central (Buddhist) government. Their initial aim is to establish (what a surprise) an explicitly Muslim government.
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Hi Laser,
Originally posted by lasersailor184
Yeah, but the crusade was to retake something important to Christianity.
Maybe seagoon knows the answer, but I don't.
Besides Jerusalem, what other place in the world is important to christianity, but over run with non-christians?
The Crusades spanned a period of two hundred years, and were launched after the Byzantine Emperor issued a plea for assistance to the West following the capture of Jerusalem and the rest of Palestine by the Seljuk Turks in the 11th century. The real reason for their start was the recognition by the Byzantines that their empire was being gobbled up piecemeal by the Turks, while the West realized that if the Byzantines fell, Eastern Europe and then Western Europe would be next (which ultimately proved to be the case. following the fall of Constantinople in the 15th century the Turks spent the remainder of the 15th and the entirety of 16th century invading and colonizing the Balkans, Greece, and getting as far as Vienna in their attempts to capture Western Europe. The majority of the Balkans religious wars are a hangover of forced Islamicization of those areas).
The Pope issued a call to retake Jerusalem from the Seljuks, nominally to make it safe for Christian pilgrims once again. Jerusalem and most of Palestine was eventually captured, and "Latin Kingdoms" established. But their isolation and lack of cooperation with the Greek (Orthodox) Byzantines made them easy prey to the consolidated Saracens who knocked them off seriatim.
Christian theologians have almost universally condemned the Crusades as having no basis in Christian theology, and Protestants in particular condemned the idea that Jerusalem as a place, had any theological significance to the faith or that Christians are supposed to be going on "pilgrimages" to venerate places or things in the first place.
As to other places important to Christianity but over-run by non-Christians, the sarcastic side of me is tempted to answer, "many denominations and congregations." ;)
- SEAGOON
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It's amazing how bad the world is simply because of religon.
No wonder the bible states that in the end all religon will be destroyed. ;)
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Originally posted by Seagoon
"many denominations and congregations." ;)
- SEAGOON
oh that's good :aok
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Originally posted by Thrawn
I apologise for my troll. In my haste to feed my ego, I didn't realise I was implying that the US military was comprised of nutballs, for that I also apologise.
"Name even small groups of Christian nutballs that blow people up on a regular basis."
IRA, the Lord's Resistance Army of Uganda.
Seagoon, I was responding to GtoRA2's question. Are their small groups of Christians in the US military that blow people up on a regular basis? He didn't specify motivations (honourable or not) nor did he specify the sex, age, validity as combatants or anything else regarding the people being blown up.
How many over the years have those IRA nutballs killed, and then how many how the islamic nutballs killed over the same time period? (Not that I agree that really fit the christian terrorst bill very well)
I bet the islamic nutballs come in WAY ahead.
Got any links on the uganda thing? I have never heard of them. Are they a terrorist group? Whats their kill tally?From what Seagoon is saying that don't sound very christian.
You knew the context of the question Thrawn. But since you apologised I will leave it alone.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
henh. I dunno whut the froggie just said, but it sounds ta me like he's askin' us to blow him up. Somebody give him one of thrawns questionaires...
Maybe he was giving us more info on how the French "blew" the Germans durring WW2?
See my sig for the first time :D
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GtoRA2 and Seagoon, I concede most of your points. But the goal posts set in the original question sure have moved. And to be clear, I am no fan of the Saudis.
Got any links on the uganda thing? I have never heard of them. Are they a terrorist group? Whats their kill tally?From what Seagoon is saying that don't sound very christian.
No, they don't sound very Christian but they call themselves Christians. Many Muslims say that Islamic extremists aren't very Muslim. Who is the authority to make the determination on whether or not they are "true" practioners of thier religions? A whole lot of subjectivity suddenly becomes involved.
Even if the original question was phrased, "Contrast the number of Christians and Muslims that use terrorism to further religious (as opposed to political) agendas". That darn subjectivity of what a "true" Muslim or Christian would still be there.
Anyway, here is where I heard about the LRA. I love the War Nerd and find many of his articles enlightening, and some not.
http://www.exile.ru/2002-June-26/war_nerd.html
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Ask yourself this.
What does all terrorist have in common? thats right you get a gold star.
They are all MUSLIM'S wake up America:O
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The Basques will be appalled.
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Originally posted by RightF00T
72 virgins? Sounds like alot of crying with no satisfaction= Hell
:rofl
Semantics / cultural communication gap.
...someone took the concept of giving head to a whole new level.
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Originally posted by fartwinkle
Ask yourself this.
What does all terrorist have in common? thats right you get a gold star.
They are all MUSLIM'S wake up America:O
White supremacists /KKK/ new nazis are Muslims?
:huh
(handsomehunk)
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Actually, it depends on how you define "Christian," if one includes Roman Catholicism in that definition, .
I am very curious as to your wording here. Are you saying there is actual doubt (nukes rantings in the past do not constitute doubt) as to whether or not Catholics are Christians?
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That Christ fella was quite tolerant. Not a believer myself, but his ideas can safely be described as brilliant. I wonder what went so wrong in the last 2000 years to make those that 'follow' him, deviate so extremely from the substance and form of his teachings.
This thread can be summarised with the following statements:
1) Terrorism is an Islamic phenomenon
2) All Muslims must share both the blame and the wrath
3) Islam is a disease that must be erradicated
4) Only Muslims are capable of barbarity
5) An action by someone calling themselves a Muslim is supported by the entire religion, no matter who they are
6) Similarly, agreement with a sentiment extolled by one who calls themselves Islamic is measure of the beliefs of an entire religion
6) Personal responsibility does not exist; only collective responsibility is applied
You guys should read what you write. Some are blatant and obtuse in their implications. Others used latent terminology to disguise and obfuscate. It's anti-semitic all the same. It's pretty sad to be perfectly honest.
"Extremists on the right of me, nutcases on left, here I am..."
I'm sure you know the tune.
Oh, and before you start calling me a terrorist sympathiser, know that I have no sympathy with extremism of any kind. I believe Muslims should be pro-active and aggressively fight those who push messages of hate, within their communities and culture.
And while they do that, I'll do the same in mine.
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Originally posted by Dowding
know that I have no sympathy with extremism of any kind. I believe Muslims should be pro-active and aggressively fight those who push messages of hate, within their communities and culture.
And while they do that, I'll do the same in mine.
OMG!!!! Dowding said something I actually agree with!!!! :p
Until the practitioners of islam get fully involved in condemning and actively fighting extremism conducted in the name of their religion I can't take them seriously as a civilized form of religion. Making a choice to do nothing is IMO a decision to aid those committing crimes in their name.
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Originally posted by Red Tail 444
White supremacists /KKK/ new nazis are Muslims?
:huh
(handsomehunk)
Those groups blow stuff up on a regular basis?
They are a national embarrassment/sad joke, not real terrorists.
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I hope you guys don't mind if I answer two posts in one...
Originally posted by GtoRA2
How many over the years have those IRA nutballs killed, and then how many how the islamic nutballs killed over the same time period? (Not that I agree that really fit the christian terrorst bill very well)
I bet the islamic nutballs come in WAY ahead.
There is no comparison between them.
"The authoritative Lost Lives book estimates that of the 3,665 people killed as a result of the Troubles in Northern Ireland, 1,778 of them (48.5%) were killed by the IRA. Of those 1,778 killed by the IRA, 642 were civilian non-combatants." [Irish Examiner]
The IRA, for all their evil efforts, ultimately killed fewer civilians that Al Qaeda did in a single day.
Got any links on the uganda thing? I have never heard of them. Are they a terrorist group? Whats their kill tally?From what Seagoon is saying that don't sound very christian.
GTO, I hadn't heard of them either until a couple of years ago. I first heard of them during a lunch with one of the directors of missions for the Orthodox Presbyterian Church who has taught in seminaries in Uganda and worked closely with the Presbyterian church of Uganda. The LRA has caused immense suffering in the Northern portions of Uganda and frequently attacks churches and kills pastors.
Explaining their theology is impossible because it's constantly in flux, for the most part it's tribal animism, combined with "Kony as God" worship, with bits and pieces of other religions mixed in randomly according to Kony's predilections.
For an article on this group originally published in The Independent, click on the following link: The Mystic and His Brutal Army of Child Soldiers (http://www.religionnewsblog.com/8078)
Now to the other question - Maverick, you asked the following question:
I am very curious as to your wording here. Are you saying there is actual doubt (nukes rantings in the past do not constitute doubt) as to whether or not Catholics are Christians?
Obviously I want to be careful here, but this of course is the issue at the heart of the Reformation. If you happen to believe that the Solas of the Reformation (Grace Alone, Faith Alone, Scripture Alone, Christ Alone, To God Alone be the Glory) are critical and foundational components of the Christian faith, then you are compelled to conclude that groups that deny them are not Christian. Additionally, the Anathemas of the Roman Catholic church on those who hold to the Solas that were authoratatively pronounced at the Council of Trent have never been officially repudiated. Therefore the differences between these two groups are too profound to be simply ignored.
To tell the truth, this isn't the forum (or the thread) for a full-orbed debate of this topic. In order to even begin to intelligently have it, certain things not present here would be necessary. Which is one of the many reasons I steered well clear of the aforementioned Nuke thread.
Please rest assured Mav, that I didn't make the comment to simply Catholic bash.
- SEAGOON
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Interesting. So in other words Chritianity is determined based on those documents and actual faith in the same God, Son etc. does not have determinate meaning.
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Before this thread takes a header, let me say that I think your post was well said Dowding.
A lot of people seem to be painting with an awfully broad brush these days.
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Dowding is painting with broad brush himself.
With a few exceptions I don't think most people in this thread are saying all Muslims are bad.
I even noted it in one of my posts, just that most terrorists right now are Muslim.
No one here is stupid; we should not have to state in every post about Muslim terrorism, that we understand not all Muslims are bad.
That should be obvious.
Dowding is on target about extremists though they suck no mater what they claim to believe in.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
This is why my eyes will NEVER see The Pyramids, Jerusalem, in person.
U can visit Jerusalem. It`s an interesting place to visit. Not long ago I eat in a restaurant with arafat`s picture on the wall,in the old city...sure sign of israeli oppression ;)
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~
Do you have some kind of point?
It really helps if you post it.
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hit wrong button...doh
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i hit the wrong button...doh
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LOL Looks like you hit a wrong again or the right one to many times! :D
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..lemme just blame it on the muslims
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I take it back..
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/640973.html (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/640973.html)
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Originally posted by Red Tail 444
White supremacists /KKK/ new nazis are Muslims?
:huh
(handsomehunk)
KKK are not terrorist they are simply idiots and the same goes for the skinheads nazi wanna be's
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Hi Mav,
Originally posted by Maverick
Interesting. So in other words Chritianity is determined based on those documents and actual faith in the same God, Son etc. does not have determinate meaning.
My apologies if any of this is unclear. No, it's not a matter of the documents, its a matter of the substance of the faith those documents recapitulate. At the heart of the Reformation were major differences over foundational Christian doctrines.
For instance, the critical question in the Christian faith is still the same one asked by the Jailer in Acts 16:30 "What must I do to be saved"? The Reformers maintained that all that is necessary in order to be Saved is to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, because it is faith alone that unites us to Christ, and it His saving work alone that is efficacious in salvation. His death washes away our sins, and His obedience establishes our righteousness before God. Hence they maintained that Justification is by Faith Alone. The Roman church on the other hand maintained that it is Faith and our Good Works which will justify us before God. The Reformed countered that to trust in our own works to any degree will not avail in the final judgment.
There were of course plenty of others, the most important of them being whether the Bible Alone was to be our final authority in all matters of faith and practice, or whether the Church and Tradition were equally important, and the ability to decide these matters authoratively was vested by God in an infalible Roman Magisterium.
True, both Catholics and Protestants agree on issues like the Trinity and the substance of the first 5 ecumenical councils, but when it comes to issues like authority and soteriology (the theology of salvation), there are major differences. Hence historically the Papacy considered Protestants to be Heretics and Schismatics and thus no part of the church of Christ, and vice versa. There has been a lot of detante since then, and the differences between a theologically liberal Catholic and a theologically liberal Protestant are hardly worth mentioning. But there are still vast differences between Evangelical theology and the Roman Catholic theology contained in official RC creedal documents.
If you want to discuss the issue further via email, I'm happy to do so, but I really don't want to hijack the thread or get into a who's right and who's wrong here. What would be the point considering even the foundational issues that Catholics and Protestants agree on, i.e. the existence of God, the deity of Christ, the authority of Scripture, and so on are all definitely up for grabs around here...
Heck, around here you can't even get a consensus on the proposition Ex Nihilo, Nihil fit (Out of nothing, nothing comes).
- SEAGOON