Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: GRUNHERZ on December 15, 2000, 12:06:00 AM
-
Hi
HTC, I apologize for this pissed-off sounding message, but ive had it with the chog and its 900yard lasers. Bring up this issue of hispano performance in AH has so far been useless, as all of you simply refuse to even consider that something might be wrong with your beloved 900yard lasers. So now I simply request that somebody from HTC give us data that proves that the Hispanos in RL got 900yd kills on a daily basis, that they scored regular hits at those and longer distances, plus that they regulary killed tanks in one or 2 passes. After all I imagine it will be easy for HTC to prove this fact as they certainly have such concrete data on Hispano RL performance, that they can easily dismiss any "whine" from anybody who thinks Hispanos are inaccurate. So plese HTC can we have some evidence? I know im a new guy here and that I prolly dont have a right to be so rude/sarcastic, but I would greatly appreciate some evidence on HTC part that the AH Hispano is an accurate representation of its RL bigtoeerpart in performance.
Please HTC dont just ignore this post, and please post your evidence that hispanos are accurate.
Something just isnt right with them, if they regularly kill at 900yds. In all my reading of WW2 air combat, Ive only read of one account of a kill at anything like those ranges. It was Buzz Beurling who after months of calculations on his weapons trajectory managed to kill a 109 at 800yards. He was arguably the best shot of the war,reportedly even better than Marsaille, who at his best averaged 15 bullets per kill, (yes the ground crew counted after every sortie)
Every other kill ive heard of happend at much shorter ranges. In fact all WW2 pilots accounts/memoirs ive read often made fun of their opponets tendancy to fire at over 500yds/meters as these experienced aces knew this to be a waste of ammo. Certainly Hispano fire at 500yds plus doent fit into that category.
The closest kill Ive ever heard of that matches everyday Hispano performance in range happend during the Korean war. Interestingly enough the scoring pilots wingman was a WW2 corsair pilot. The scoring F86 pilot opened fire at the Mig15 at over 1000yds, his wingman(ww2 corsair pilot) thougt this highly odd and saw it as a waste of ammo. He was duly surprised to then see killing hits on the Mig. So what? This seemingly supports the AH everday Hispano 900yd range, doesnt it? Well one key element left out of the story was the combat altitide, 45,000feet. At that alt the air is much thinner and the bullets can score effectivly at those extreme ranges. We all know hispanos in AH regulary hit out to 900yds on the deck. So whats so special about them?
Once again, I know it will be easiest for HTC to ignore this post as another whine, however I urge you guys to respond with supporting evidence if think Hispanos are accurate.
thanks GRUNHERZ
btw lets all keep it civil
-
HS are a little weird still IMO, but I don't let it get to me that much.
What I wanted to comment on was that f86 story. The particular kill you refer to was with 50 cal. The 50 cal has a better trajectory than the HS. When the later model f86s began carrying Hispanos, they only had 4 seconds(!) of total ammo. They would fire only 2 guns at a time, giving 8 seconds of fire. There is NO WAY a f86 pilot would have ever attempted a 1000 yd shot, even with the lead computing gunsight the f86 had.
I had the opportunity to do some work for a pilot over the summer. He flew a26s and then later f86 sabres in Korea. Later he helped develop the f111. I asked him what range pilots opened fire. He said that depends on what you are shooting at, g forces, etc. On average he said 300 yds was the ideal distance in the p51. (Which he also flew, but not in WWII.) Because combat was faster in Korea, they opened fire a little farther out, but still 600 yds would have been a long shot. One factor he mentioned that is present in AH, but not too big of a factor, is that when the guns were fired it was impossible to aim. The plane would shake pretty violently, so you had to be close to get repeated strikes. This also would make it impossible to shoot with "spray and pray" tactics. Another factor was that firing the guns would slow you down, and I guess in Korea this would allow the migs to get away.
AH gunnery has gotten more realistic since beta. MGs are pretty good now, you have to be very close to get kills with them. The shvaks and mg151 also seem pretty good. Really the only exception to the rule is the HS. (Specifically the F4u-1c, somehow it's guns have a much better trajectory than the Typhoon.) I know Pyro was doing some work with bullet trajectories in the next version, so it might be best to let him do his job.
------------------
bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
-
I dunno... acid is fun to fly on.
-SW
-
Good post guys, good info. Peronally I think that the hispanos kill way too easily.
The Luftwaffe aces during WW2 seldeom shot at more then 300 yards, in fact, most of them only opened fire bellow 150 yards.
900 yards (I've even been shot down at more then 1000) is way too far in my opinion. Imagine your self flying in 200-400 Mph with turbulence and wins then try to see the plane at 1000 yards would be hard, to shoot them would be even harder. Specially with the guns shaking the plane.
------------------
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson
III/JG5 "EisMeer"
-
so he is changing the hispanos ?you know somthing we dont ? or are you just asking him to shut up and be happy.
the fellos asked a valid question . and i for one bet he dosent get it answered to his satisfaction . bet 10 bucks hog hispanos in 1.5 will still kill a tank lol ( in a level head on ) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
if someone can hit you at 900 yards with a hispano you did something remarkably wrong ..
-
I wonder why the RAF bothered to put 40mm cannon on the Hurricane IID if their regular Hispanos could kill tanks in one or two passes?
-
Hi flying as buzz for 41/2 years i know this.
He shot mostly 250 and under. He did get a kill at 800 yrds. He felt it was luck.
Beurling at his height of skill was the best allied shot of the war.
He says most of his kills took a 1 second burst.
He was no way as good as HJM.
I would say there were 50 or 60 lw experten Who were as good or better. Practice makes perfect.
The 20's here have a super flat trajectory.
The 2 on the spit are awsome. The four on the 1c not only kill well but out to 800.
i think they kill to well 600 to 1k.
EYE
-
Who is getting 900 yard kills??? I mean sure I've taken a few pot shots at near 1K range to try and scare a guy off my teammates six but I don't ever recall getting anything but a few pings...never a kill.
I'll have to try it offline and see what the results are.
Jsut remember that sometimes lag can make it look like guys are further back than they really are.
Another thing to consider is that this is just a game and pilots don't care if they use 600-700 rounds for a super lucky 900yd kill. I imagine it didn't happen in WWII cause your ammo was your life so you would be stupid to take those kind of shots. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
But one of my favorite features of the 20mm cannon round is the explosive tip. Remember they are not just a chunk of lead...they are like little missiles. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/cool.gif)
-
I just did a test of the 900 yd kills. I found it to be quite difficult but it can be done. I did find that it took an average of 400 20mm rounds to get a hit and in 10 attempts, only once did I get a kill.
The biggest difference we have over the real WWII pilots is that we can ZOOM in for a closer look. The zoom definately made it easier to get hits at +900yds. (personally I don't use the zoom in a dogfight but I did in this test to show it as a factor
This is the amount of lead it took to hit the leading P51
(http://www.davehales.com/image/trajectory1.jpg)
This is the reverse angle (http://www.davehales.com/image/trajectory2.jpg)
This is the side view (http://www.davehales.com/image/trajectory3.jpg)
[This message has been edited by discod (edited 12-15-2000).]
-
SWEET GUNSIGHT
-
Heheh the chog requires less lead at 900 than German 20mm do at same angle at 300 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
Me, I just try to stay outta 10-2 position of any hisp equipped aircraft (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
------------------
StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.geocities.com/nirfurian/stSanta.jpg)
-
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
(http://web.tiscalinet.it/gatt/logo.gif)
-
While I agree that the Hispano seems a little too good against tanks, there's one thing I'd like to mention. All these "900 yard kills" mean 900 yards on the killed pilots FE, in more or less high speed chases, right? In those cases the attacker is _always_ (due to net lag) 300-500 yards closer than he appears. If you try shooting from 900 yards on your own FE you'll see that it's not that easy, as discod showed it takes a lot of ammo and seldom results in a kill. 5-600 yards (which is what the Chog sees in these engagements) is much easier. Probably much easier than real life too, but that's the same for all planes in AH.
(http://hem.bredband.net/rickenbacker/images/ricksig.jpg)
-
It's not the guns that allow you to hit accurately at 900 yds, its the icon range finder that does. That range finder allows you to compensate and adjust your aim quickly because know the exact range the bandit is from you. Something that these WWII anecdotes don't take into account.
Cobra
(I fly mainly Yaks and 51's for A2A, so I'm not a rabid hispano defender)
-
We've been through this too many times. This "regular kills at 900+" is a load of bull. I can't do it that's for sure. Show me a film of a sortie where you get kills at that distance. Please. Do you have any idea how many times I've asked that question and not had a single film show up?
No matter how many times we've been through this issue, people keep stating things as "facts" that are not facts. You said "Something just isn't right with them, if they (Hispano cannons) kill regularly at 900yds." You know what, you are right. However, that's a big IF. Prove to me that they kill regularly at 900 yds in AH and then I'll agree that something is wrong. Now I do think that there is some minor tweaking that needs to happen, but it's no where near the big issue you make it out to be.
Now a note about the changes Pyro has mentioned for 1.05. In the current version of AH, your rounds "disperse", in some kind of a pattern from their aim point. I presume that this dispersion is random at this point. The end result is that if you fire a great load of cannon shells at long range, they will spread out in a very large random pattern. This is not entirely accurate, as in real life although the rounds may spread out in a pattern of the same size, more rounds would tend to be closer to the center than at the edges. The change Pyro mentioned was to weight the dispersion mathematically so that our bullet patterns more closely match real ones, IE more rounds closer to the aim point. The Hispano's are not lasers at all, but more like uber-shotguns. If you put lasers on a C-Hog instead of cannons it would be MORE DIFFICULT to hit IMHO, where the current shotgun effect makes it easier than it should be. This is the real issue.
Right now, if you hose away with cannons in a C Hog, you are throwing a LOT of lead into the air. Because of the random dispersion pattern, at long ranges you have a really big shotgun effect. This makes it more likely that you will get a hit at long ranges, because your pattern covers such a large area. With .50 cal birds, this doesn't work, since a few hits won't do enough damage, so although it's easier to hit they don't get results. With the .20mm Hispano's however, those are CANNON rounds... they explode. It only takes a couple of rounds to damage the enemy plane, so the increased chance of a hit pays off.
What I think you will see in 1.05 is that it will be a bit more difficult to get hits out at longer ranges. The added bonus is that if somebody does hit you, it will now be more because of skill than luck due to a large dispersal pattern. On the flip side, I think this change will help the MG planes, since our rounds will be more likely to impact in one area and do serious damage. In short, it will make the gunnery more realistic, and may solve some of the perceived "900 yard turbo laser" issues.
Also, you can't compare real-life pilots to AH pilots. We are all FAR BETTER gunners than even the very top Aces in WWII. We have fired 100 times more rounds in combat than they every did. On top of that, we don't have to deal with many of the problems they had with air to air gunnery. So yes, I fully expect AH pilots to be able to make shots regularly that you never hear about in WWII simply based on our superior skills due to the factors mentioned above.
------------------
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"
[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 12-15-2000).]
-
I cant tell you how many times that Golly-geened CHog has made me reconsider WBs 2.76
If it werent for the promise of 1.05 methinks Id be outta here.
Yeager
-
"eheh the chog requires less lead at 900 than German 20mm do at same angle at 300"
There's always got to be a Luftwobble whine in every thread right?
It's one thing to work on an issue based on what something does or does not do. It is yet another thing altogether to speculate that something is fudged because another similar thing is not as capable.
-Westy
-
if someone can hit you at 900 yards with a hispano you did something remarkably wrong ..
I wouldn't necessarily say this... most people say that just jinking a little side to side will spoil shots like this. I have tried this several times and still find myself losing a rudder, stab, or even my whole tail at these distances.
(Shoulda quoted more) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
In response to a couple toher statements, I saw one post where it said that in the other guys FE they are much closer. This is very true but in most cases where I've been hit from 900-1000 I've been pulling away rapidly not being closed upon.
In defense of the Chog though.. (sort of) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) this is done by not only the chog, but those so called weak 20mm on the 190's and 109's have also done this to me as well. All from distances of greater then 900. I'll sit and jink from side to side as I watch them spray for all they're worth only to hear the inevitable ping and watch as my plane shoots nose up and my tail departs the fueselage.
For those of you asking for film.. I will try and get some for you so that I can show it and will try and get some from the other pilot as well.. so we can see it from both sides.
Bane
13th TAS
-
Can't have the crackers without the cheese, now can you Westy? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-
Cobra... very good point! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) I for one would be an even worse shot if it wasn't for the rangefinder!
Westy... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Right on dude! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Regards
Nexx
-
Whew... thanks lep... I thot I was the only guy who can't get those easy 1,000 yard kills in AH with cannon.
grun... let me guess... A gore supporter?
lazs
-
The 2 vs 2 duel at the con was ended when Drex tore Ripsnort appart at 800 plus in a p38. I was watching it on drexes pc..does that mean it was at 1.2k on Rips..Both saw the same thing as far as I know. I think that Pyro was watching Rips. Rip behaved like he had seperated. In ww2 he probably would have been successfuly seperated. And he would have built up a 1k alt advantage at the same time. The fight would likly have gone much differently. Drex fired in a little bit of desperation because of that. He knew that if he didnt tag Rip bad before they both stalled out it would be ugly for him after the stall.
I doubt that Pyro needs film from anyone to be convinced that the Hispano has non historical leathality at long ranges still.
RA Ra RA...
-
I'm not saying these shots won't or shouldn't happen. I'm just saying they are rare occurrences. I find it interesting that the guy you use for an example is likely one of the best damn pilots in the entire online flight sim community. He is in AH a WAY better shot than any WWII fighter pilot was in real life. He has much more experience, no real penalty if he fails, and doesn't have to worry about some of the real-life issues that made gunnery tough.
Assuming a hit is made at 900 yards. Do you guys think the .20 mm Hispano cannon shells did less explosive damage? I know Pyro had gotten all the data he can to try and model it right. Unless we can show that something is not correct, how can we expect Pyro to keep re-examining this after he has done all he can to make it correct?
The third issue here is net lag. Guys, it's a fact of life in the online community. We either simulate gunnery as closely as possible and deal with the effects of netlag, or we kludge the gunnery. The HTC team has obviously gone the realism route in terms of gunnery, and frankly I agree with it. We must adjust our tactics to reflect the network environment, and adjust our ranges appropriately. So yeah, In WW2 he probably would have successfully separated, but the reality of network gaming is you have to add a few hundred yards for net lag. We all adjust our ranges and expectations based on it, it's just a fact. Now you may not like that compromise, but I find it far better than the alternative.
------------------
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"
-
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
Hi
Something just isnt right with them, if they regularly kill at 900yds.
thanks GRUNHERZ
btw lets all keep it civil
OK, if it's 900 yards on the Hogs FE that means it will show as maybe 1.2 - 1.3K on your own.
Possibly your personal experience is completely different from mine Grunhertz, but if you asked me how many times a C Hog has killed me when my icon reading was 1.3K, I'd say never.
Come to mention it, even reading 900K it's almost never, although realistically I wouldn't complain if I was hit at a range of what is really 600 as far is the host is concerned.
Vladd
-
Grunherz, you got this **completely** wrong.
HTC doesnt have to proof anything. We DO have to do it, so we can get fixes.
No matter that the thing is completely unveliable, no matter that the hispanos can effectively kill a plane with two pings at 450 yards (thing that happened to me some days ago, confirmed by the pilot who got me).No matter.
NO matter that a lot of repeated hits of mausers just 5 minutes after that two ping death didnt bring me down. At 150yards.No matter.
NO matter that the real thing jammed all day long, while here we have the ultrareliable non-breech-heating fire-all-day-matic (tm). No matter.
They need proofs. But when you got a film on a two ping dead from hispanos, you get a "nah, its normal, they were powerful weapons".
Grunherz, a hearly advice. Better dont post threads like this anymore, or sooner or later you will be the next "RAM" in a lot of people's eyes. They will cut you in pieces, literally, each time you dare to post a critic post.
I know it well.
-
The only problem I have with the Hispano is the modelling of the ammo. Make it *either* HE or AP, not both.
------------------
LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
(http://www.luftjagerkorps.com/images/logo.gif)
[This message has been edited by LJK Raubvogel (edited 12-15-2000).]
-
900 yrd range is excessive for more than fluke kills.
Now on the subject of 20mm vs armour.
Yes the RAF had 30 then 40mm cannons on Hurricanes in N.Africa but consider that all they put on the best of the Western Allied tank killers was th 4 20mm cannons on the Typhoon.
Attack profile would be high rear quarter and cannon shells would pass thru any grill (it wasn't armor) over the tank motor and finally into the motor. This gives you one immobile tank.
Cheers,
Rifle
-
Leave it to RAM to spend 1/2 a page rambling and ad aboslutely nothing to the conversation.
No RAM, nobody is cutting Grunherz up. I dispute some of his claims, but not him. In fact I welcome the discussion, I think it helps clear a few things up.
BTW, nobody else is going to get treated the way you do. No one else is willing to post that much drivel... they just don't have the time to build that kind of a reputation. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
------------------
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"
-
Originally posted by Pongo:
The 2 vs 2 duel at the con was ended when Drex tore Ripsnort appart at 800 plus in a p38. I was watching it on drexes pc..does that mean it was at 1.2k on Rips..Both saw the same thing as far as I know
Do you think that them being on a closed network with T1 connection to the served had anything to do with it ?
If i remember correctly, ping times to the server were 10ms or so.
Come on Pongo (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) repeat after me... DUHHHH
------------------
Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
-
Anybody letting a F4U shoot them at over 300yrds is asleep, watching CNN, grabbin a snack, or most likaly not being defensive. Im really into a good pilot if they actually turn that blue pigs nose at your 6. At 800-900 Ive lost a flap or something but I was in "X" level. Any movment of the plane makes it virtually impossible to hit. In a HO, they will devastate you, but even there a jink or G pull in any direction is good.
I do know for a fact, they kill Osti's dead, and Ive never had any luck with any other plane doing that. A horde of F4U's got me 5-0 in a Osti last night.
(-note to self- do not start pissin match with Lephturn)
-
There are several reasons why those supposed "miracle shots" happen.
One, they usually happen on the deck. Yanno, yer in a bad situation so ya try to extend? Hit X to accelerate as fast as possible?
Well the ground makes a PERFECT backdrop for ranging to your plane. They just walk the shells up to you.
The 1C has the enormous ammo load, so they can spray 400 rounds and they still have enough cannon shells left to kill 3 or 4 more planes. So ammo isn't an issue to them
In the said situation, the tail is the most likely thing the cannon shells are going to hit. And it usually only takes one hit (somethimes two or 3) to take off the horizontal or vertical stab.
Getting those shots isn't hard. It's possible in nearly any plane. The less lead you throw up the harder it is to hit of course. The .50s are rather easy to hit planes with out to 1.1k or so. They just don't do anything at that range.
Off to make films, hitting and getting hit at that ranges is the norm from me, and it isn't just from the 1C and .50 planes.
Also, Beurling might of been said the be the "best shot of the war" but bunch of the pilots in the 357rd FG (Anderson, Yeager, Bochkay, O'Brien, Browning) all had at least one kill past 600 yards (Yeager had 3, one at 800 yard, one slightly farther) most with short bursts. Then again they also had kills at 50 feet too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
- Jig
[This message has been edited by Jigster (edited 12-15-2000).]
-
Originally posted by Lephturn:
Leave it to RAM to spend 1/2 a page rambling and ad aboslutely nothing to the conversation.
No RAM, nobody is cutting Grunherz up. I dispute some of his claims, but not him. In fact I welcome the discussion, I think it helps clear a few things up.
BTW, nobody else is going to get treated the way you do. No one else is willing to post that much drivel... they just don't have the time to build that kind of a reputation. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
oh I did aport things in my post. That the hispanos have highly unrealistic performances, due both the impossible ammount of damage they do, and the fact that the range markers and lack of breech heating dispersion effects make long range spray&pray shooting practical (for me anything away from 700 yards in AA gun combat is long range.)
As a side note, no, you aren't cutting him...for now, and because you have others to cut (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif). I dont mind to be seen like I am, I know my part, I fly peacefully under an unknown handle , and I keep on doing that impressive and unforgivable thing in this forum:
to say what I think.
----------------------------------------
Creamo, no, not always you are seeing CNN. Sometimes you have to do that little nasty thing called "to extend", and not always the pilot are able to do STRONG evasives, as a C-hog is quite a fast plane and not many planes in AH are faster on deck level (where I am hit by the 99% of the longer-than-700 yard shots) than it. [edit for Jig] Deck level means something from 0 feet to 3K. So no range-by-dust hits here[/edit]
Add to that, that sometimes you have more than one bandit on your six and all you can do is to jink a bit.
But if the dweeb throws his 800 rounds to the air, he is going to hit you FOR SURE as the ballistics in AH are PERFECT (no air dispersion ,no heating cannon effect NO GUN JAMMING ON LONG BURSTS- and I recall here that Hispanos were never very reliable weapons in jamming matters-), and you have a laser rangefinder that tells the gunner the exact ranges on increments of ONE yard up to 1K.
Simply said, lephturn said that here we are way better gunners than our reallife counterparts. I say that we are crap compared with them ,as we rely on an ultra-accurate rangefinder, perfect ballistics, no atmospherical effects, no wind effects, and a perfect zooming ability that I doubt even T-1000 on Terminator2 movie had.
Just try to kick off the icons and lets see how much does people hit, ok?.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 12-15-2000).]
-
Do two 1/2 page ramblings, equal one whole page of rambling?
-
Oh and as far as Hispanos vs armor, I don't theres any kinda of calculations in the damage model (hell there's barely a rough armor model on them at all) taking into account impact angle. Thats probably the most important factor in penetration, because even a mega-uber 128mm kwk isn't going to penetrate very well if it's at a glanceing angle (which are presently the angles from which planes attack, or into the thickest parts of the armor)
8 round rocket slavos were the primary AT technique used by Typhoons, because they liked blowing up convoys, railyards, pill boxs, bunkers, etc with the cannons (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Knocking out engines through the grilling is a little more complicated then is seems because of the angle relation of the Typhoon attack, most of the shells would land against the firewall and go over the top of the engine. The further the attacking pilot increases his perpendicular angle to the ground (for a flatter aspect shot to the top) the less time he has on target and the greater his chance of augering. Not to mention trees, powerlines, etc.
But that's just real world tactics vs AH, which are rarely the same (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Jigster (edited 12-15-2000).]
-
"...That the hispanos have highly unrealistic performances"
Prove it RAM. Put your money where your mouth is and just prove it.
Just what is off? The trajectory? It's kinetic energy? Explosive damage it is able to deliver? Rate of fire? What is it that is off? Your perception of what they should be like or the actual numbers on the gun that shows Pyro or HiTech are oblivious to the error? Now even I'm getting tired of your posts like this.
I'm not backing whether they are accurate or not. I'm just tired of this anecdotal roadkill that gets spewed by some folks that they are fudged. Because people don't like how much easier they allow other planes shoot them down or that they out perform thier favorite aircrafts guns.
-Westy.
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 12-15-2000).]
-
Originally posted by Creamo:
Do two 1/2 page ramblings, equal one whole page of rambling?
Are those RAMblings? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
------------------
LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
(http://www.luftjagerkorps.com/images/logo.gif)
[This message has been edited by LJK Raubvogel (edited 12-15-2000).]
-
Originally posted by Westy:
"...That the hispanos have highly unrealistic performances"
Prove it RAM. Put your money where your mouth is and just prove it.
Just what is off? The trajectory? It's kinetic energy? Explosive damage it is able to deliver? Rate of fire?
It is that two pings do fatal damage on a Fw190A5 from 300 yards while a load of them from mausers at 150 yards,don't.
As simple as that.
And yes, the current hispano lacks one of the main qualities of the real life hispano: its lack of reliability.
I said what I had to say, and I wont make the error to go in a piss contest against all of you, joking funny guys. The simple presence of the F4U1-C is demential enough, but their hispanos are worse than turbolasers.
I made my point and I have nothing more to say.
Tonight I will fly along all of you and you will not know who am I. I know that many of you are pissed because you miserably failed in your predictions that after 2 days I would be recognized.
2 weeks, going on, and only the ones I want know it. And, whatever your name-calling, joking, funny thing, whatever, is, none of you will achieve to do one thing:
to achieve me not saying what I think.
Time for me to get out of this thread. Happy witch-hunting ,all of you.
-
Ram u funny guy!
Unmask yerself so that I may slap u silly
for old times sake (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
What is a grnhrn anyway?
Yeager (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
Tards.
LOL.
-
"It is that two pings do fatal damage on a Fw190A5 from 300 yards while a load of them from mausers at 150 yards don't. As simple as that."
And as simple as that is it's obvious where your problem is. You're basing your opinion that the Hispano has "highly unrealistic performaces" because the Mauser does not seem to be as good or better than the Hispano.
And you wonder why HTC won't respond to you or anyone else who bases thier suspicions on a "feeling" or comparison to another aircraft/bomb/weapon.
All you succeed in doing is shooting yourself in the foot.
As for folks who say, "fine! they'll vote with their $$$." I say god riddance. By insisting HTC build AH on conjecture or feeling as the yard stick your onmly holding up the $30/mo and saying if you don;t do it how I feel it should be doine then I'm taking this away. That's black mail. I'm sure HTC would jump at the chance to correct something that was deficient or in error if they had real evidence that somethings was askew.
-Westy
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 12-15-2000).]
-
Yeager, Grnhrn is short for Greenhorn. He is a friend from AW. Whels, MrLars and Vermillion can vouch for him. He's not RAM or anyone else in "shades." A very nice guy who likes to get along with folks and have a fun. You'll narely ever see him say a hostile thing to anyone. Loves online WWII aircombat just like the rest of us. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-Westy
-
The USN fount that there was 1 stoppage per 5000 rounds fired.
Thats not THAT unreliable.
The way you anti-Hispano guys talk you'd think they suffered stoppages every 50 rounds fired.
A Spitfire, with its 240 rounds, has a 4.8% chance of having a stoppage. Just to give it some perspective, thats 1 in 21 flights.
Sisu
-Karnak
-
Jeez Karnak, don't do anything as rational as bring in actual facts!!
Strange RAM, you say that MG151/20's don't kill, but when I fly the 109G10 with gondola's it kills just as effectively as the Hispano's within 400 yards.
Just ask Ammo (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) I shredded his P47 from 300 yesterday with a single 1 second burst.
------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
-
I have been killed at these distances. dont try and claim grunhertz is imagining things.
why is it i dont see spits ot typhoons hitting me at these distances? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Something has to be done on this.
If Htc posted their info the arguements would end.
CALL ME PARANOID OR WHATEVER..
but my personal veiw is the cosair being the favourite of the americans has had the most favourable specs modeled.Nowhere have i personally read accounts of its amazing ability to perform so well.Ive have read accounts by pilots stateing that it was big,heavy,fast and hard hitting (with .50s in the article) Pilots talked of keeping fast and 'never' turning with the enemy.
we have the F4c model!
200 odd made but freely available in AH.
The hispanos were good guns from what ive read but in the same book there was a bold statement about the german 30mm being able to totally destroy an aircraft with 1 round! There are no such stories of the hispano.
All the books ive read over the years have given me my view on aircraft/weapons etc and I have always had the impression that the LW aircraft were ahead of their time and superior in performance (at different stages)but were in short supply (late in war)and so ineffectual.Well we are not short of supply/numbers in AH so why isnt everyone flying them? because they are considerably poorer in performance than thier allied counterparts(in AH with possible niki exception).
Hispanos were good i accept..better than mg151? not according to the pilots that faced mg151's and if anything there is more mentions of jams with hispanos than praise of their ability to hit at extreme range.
So PLEASE someone show me where is this FABLED DATA???what do you people base your statements on? have you ever flown these planes? fired the guns? i very much doubt it...so show us where you learned the info
I was thinking that when the perk system arrives how about we make any aircraft with a lower than 400 production a perk plane?
Id be happy(!) to be shot with overmodelled guns if i knew the guy flying them had earned a flight in it.I'd overlook the fact that i think they are lasers.
hazed
-
The USN fount that there was 1 stoppage per 5000 rounds fired.
Thats not THAT unreliable.
Quote your sources and how these test were done. Was this test done on the ground or in an airborne a/c? What was the delay in between fired bursts?
Just saying "1 stoppage per 5000 rounds" doesn't mean anything.
P.S. The big problem with the Hispano is its dispersion the Hispano has very little dispersion compared to the MG 151 which is like a spray gun. I posted a topic in the A&V forum asking why the Hispano dispersed so much less than the MG 151 and no one was able to explain why the MG151 dispersed so much more than the Hispano.
-
".. have been killed at these distances. Dont try and claim grunhertz is imagining things."
No one is doing any such thing. But! Remember, this isn't real life. We are tetting more live fire time than just about any WWII Pilot ever could have and we also have that big honking icon out there to tell us that the aircraft we want to shoot is still just within range. As an unkown prophette once said, "Spray and you shall receive! (ie. the kill)"
It's the whole MA thing that allows planes and thier weapons to be used out of context from their real life counterparts. When will some of you get that through all that lobol shielding?
Is it real? No. and neither is flying the way folks do in the MA.
Show some real kind of evidence that the Hispanos are porked. Or petition HTC to have the F4U-1C removed. In the case of removal, I give the Typhoon about three weesk before it replaces the 1C as the focus of whineage. then it will be the Spit IX or 190-A5 when the Tiffie is yanked. Pyro has spoken many times on the Hispanos. I suggest you do a search and 'edumacate' yourself on what they think about the subject.
-Westy
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 12-15-2000).]
-
"no one was able to explain why the MG151 dispersed so much more than the Hispano."
Because it doesn't.
-
Hi
Great discussion so far guys and it hasnt degenerated into a brawl, keep it up. Theres hope for us yet. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) One thing some of you brought up was the kills happend cuz a guy was able to spray forever hoping for a lucky hit. Last night I was reading Bud Anderson's book and he said you always had to fire in short bursts, or the barrel lining/rifling would melt and would kill any accuracy of weapons. Maybe this needs to be implemented in some form?? Id still really appreciate to hear something from HTC about Hispanos, please guys?
thanks GRUNHERZ
-
Bud Anderson's book and he said you always had to fire in short bursts, or the barrel lining/rifling would melt and would kill any accuracy of weapons. Maybe this needs to be implemented in some form??
====
A feature of this depth belongs in an adult simulation of combat, not a teenagers cannon orgy fest.
Yeager
-
Nath, the 5,000 round number comes from official comparison testing the USN did, and was reported at the Joint Fighter Conference at NAS Patuxent River, MD 16-23 October 1944.
The Report of the Joint Fighter Conference, edited by Francis Dean is availble from Schiffer Military History. ISBN # 0-7643-0404-6
The discussion Karnak is referencing starts on page 154 and continues thru 175.
A few highlights
p.157 To give you some idea of the 50 versus the 20 and dispel a lot of ideas that have bothered us, I would like to give you a comparison. When someone goes from four 50's to two 20's, to the layman that means a decrease in fire power. Actually the reverse is true. In the horsepower of the gun, one 20 is equal to three .50's. In the actual rate of fire delivered at the target, one 20 equals three 50's; in kinetic energy at 500 yards, one 20 equals tow and one-half 50's.
That adds up to four 20's equaling twelve 50 calibers, judged by those standards. Of course you have other advantages of the 20. You have much greater penetration of armor. The 20 will go thru 3/4 inch of armor at 500 yards, while the 50 cal, will go through only .43 inchs. In addition to that you have one more great advantage - that is, you can have longer and more frequent bursts without damage to the gun with the 20 than you can have from the 50 cal.
page 158, The same comparison holds true for the 30's and 50's, as has held for the 50's and the 20's. Two 30's are approximately 1/3 to 1/2 as effective as one 50.
page 159, We have developed some wonderful strafing techniques. They are sinking destroyeers and they have stopped Cruisers dead in the water with 50-cal gun fire. Its a tremendous weapon. When we get these 20mm's out there, its is going to be even tougher. They can put a pretty good size ship out of commission with them.
page 162, Another thing that is coming up is the cooling of guns in the wings. This is a serious problem with strafers. The boys quite often burn out every gun they have got in one dive and then come back and raise hell. While it is initially hard to tell a pilot that you are absolutely limited to the number of rounds you can get out and still save your rifling, you still ahve your barrel in a fit condition to fly. When he wants to shoot 200 rounds, he wants to shoot 200 rounds. The fact that it is an impossibility - the gun won't do it- sometimes doesn't seem to make any difference to him. You are held down to 75 rounds for your initial burst and 25 rounds thereafter in your 50 cal, but in the 20mm, that doesn't hold true.
page 163 (discussing BuOrds' testing of 20mm at Dahlgren) Dahlgren assures us that you will get an absolutely reliable gun for 5,000 rounds, and if you take care of it you might get 20,000 rounds out of it. Of course 20,000 rounds is quite adequate.
There is a whole lot more, but I'm tired of typing. Buy the book and read it for yourself if you don't believe me.
------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
-
Hispanos have a muzzle velocity nearly double mg151's don't they?
U guys claiming to have been killed by hispanos at 900 yrds... we know net issues result in actual firing range to possibly be 300-500 yrds less than that, so.. I propose you up in chogs and film yourselves getting kills at these ranges and posting them here as proof. Hell if 2 of you on 2 different teams were to work together in the MA and play drones for each other it should be real easy to do.
AKSKurj
[This message has been edited by SKurj (edited 12-15-2000).]
-
Originally posted by funked:
"no one was able to explain why the MG151 dispersed so much more than the Hispano."
Because it doesn't.
Draw you own conclusions...
(http://bigdweeb.homestead.com/files/dispersion.jpg)
I've arrowed the biggest differences. This is from the ground, in both planes with full fuel and the engines running (to make recoil reaction measureable) Set the congvergence the same and fired for 3 seconds. Cowling guns on the G10 were not fired.
Note how high the MG151's go above and below the gunsight (from the gondolas) and how wide they spread past the begining of the 45 degree bars.
-
yep, great screenshot
-
From Verm's post:
That adds up to four 20's equaling twelve 50 calibers, judged by those standards. Of course you have other advantages of the 20. You have much greater penetration of armor. The 20 will go thru 3/4 inch of armor at 500 yards, while the 50 cal, will go through only .43 inchs.
Okay if this is taken as a vaild source for gun reliability let's use it for armor too.
Panzer IV H armor:
Front Armor = 82.0
Side Armor = 30.0
Rear Armor = 21.0
Front Turret = 80.0
Side Turret = 33.0
Rear Turret = 30.0
Top Armor = 10.0
According to the book, at 500 yards (with no ammo specified) it can penetrate 19mm of armor.
So looking at that, the Panzer IV is invulnerable to the Hispano with the exception of the roof armor of the engine starting at the turrent ring and ending at the grill hinge. But in reality it's not that simple. And neither is gun reliability, unfortunately.
-
page 163 (discussing BuOrds' testing of 20mm at Dahlgren) Dahlgren assures us that
you will get an absolutely reliable gun for 5,000 rounds, and if you take care of it you
might get 20,000 rounds out of it. Of course 20,000 rounds is quite adequate.
That's a nice reference, but that number isn't referring to jamming in any way. It is stating that the lifespan of the gun is 5,000 rounds if taken care of properly.
------------------
LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
(http://www.luftjagerkorps.com/images/logo.gif)
[This message has been edited by LJK Raubvogel (edited 12-15-2000).]
-
Btw here's a film I took in the training arena. Hopefully the link will work.
http://bigdweeb.homestead.com/files/film67.zip (http://bigdweeb.homestead.com/files/film67.zip)
Note at one point how many pings hit me at once (4 .50 hits and 2 Hispano hits)
According to him he was actually further away then what the films shows (he said 1.4)
anyway this is only an example of multiple hits at range and neither promotes or discards and opinion on whether guns could hit that many times in a row. But those kind of hits ARE possible.
-
I agree that no 20mm or .50 calibre should be able to take out an armoured vehicle like a Panzer. It should be able to disable an Osty's guns and waste the M16 or M3 for sure.
NOw. About the screen shot. Isn;t dispersion the cone of fire your shot makes? What I see above is dispersion jst about even. However the Hispano's go straight much further while gravity takes it's effect on the MG's. Then again. The Hispano's had alot more velocity didn't they?
-Westy
-
Hi
Im not sure gun reliability/jamming should be modeled, pretty much for the same reason as we dont have a engine reliability model. Howerever we should accuratly model performance limitations of particular guns. If sustained firing wore out barrel immediatly then we should have that for the high velocity/ high rof guns that faced that issue in RL. I still dont understand why hispanos kill tanks in 1 or 2 passes, Thyhoons did afterall carry rockets for that job. And what bout the 40mm Hurricanes? This is simply wierd, unless of course somebody provides evidence for it. HTC where are you guys?
thanks GRUNHERZ
-
How bout this for you guys, does anybody want to see a film of me getting hit by Hispano fire from 900+ yards. Where the guy fired straight up against the full force of gravity?
-
Originally posted by Westy:
I agree that no 20mm or .50 calibre should be able to take out an armoured vehicle like a Panzer. It should be able to disable an Osty's guns and waste the M16 or M3 for sure.
NOw. About the screen shot. Isn;t dispersion the cone of fire your shot makes? What I see above is dispersion jst about even. However the Hispano's go straight much further while gravity takes it's effect on the MG's. Then again. The Hispano's had alot more velocity didn't they?
-Westy
Look at the tracer trails from the nose hub, and the gondolas. The Hispano has a much denser pattern (which is right because of simular ROF and an extra cannon) However, nearly every shell path has went through the dot. A majority at the bottom, and some in the middle and top.
The MG151 is spread out above the gunsight, below it, and two the sides. As you can see very few of the shells of the hub touched the dot judging by the tracer shells. Having this high dispersion in the gondolas are understandable, but the spraying of the nose guns (It's on the 38 too) is very strange.
The images are grainy for size purposes, but you can easily try and compare by doing what I did and compare yourself (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Needless to say that hub cannons sprays everywhere.
Btw I'm not saying this isn't historic, (have no proof either way) but that it's different.
[This message has been edited by Jigster (edited 12-15-2000).]
-
Try it for the inner 190 cannons and Spit cannons. Those are almost identical installations.
-
Originally posted by Vermillion:
Just ask Ammo (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) I shredded his P47 from 300 yesterday with a single 1 second burst.
Yup, I must agree that those "anemic mausers" seem to do there job when they hit my AC...maybe its just MY particular P-47 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
As far as verm is concerned, he's on my hunt list now (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
<S>
(http://home.nc.rr.com/ammo/public.html/unw_sig.jpg) (http://www.jump.net/~cs3)
-
Originally posted by funked:
Try it for the inner 190 cannons and Spit cannons. Those are almost identical installations.
Wouldn't that be the outter pair?
The Spit's cannons are line up perfectly with the 190's outter pair in the AH Hanger.
I can run it using two very different convergence setting son the 190.
-
(http://bigdweeb.homestead.com/files/dispersion2.jpg)
The FW looks good, very little dispersion till after touching the aiming point. Spit sprays like a shot gun.
That's rather odd. Looks like weight plays an enormous roll in dispersion (i.e. recoil ) in AH.
However, this doesn't work out with the P-38. Even with only ONE cannon and at @ 15,500lbs the P-38 sprays just as much the hub MG 151 on the 109. Go figure. The 38 also has it's nose anchored (unlike 109) Guess this might be what the fix in the next patch is?
[This message has been edited by Jigster (edited 12-15-2000).]
-
Is that at default zoom? Note that the gunsight size is different. Apples to oranges.
-
Yeah, but the apples are always overmodelled.
-
Originally posted by funked:
Is that at default zoom? Note that the gunsight size is different. Apples to oranges.
Thats at max zoom on all planes, otherwise there's no detail.
Use the gunsight for a reference not as a definate boundry. Notice how much the tracer paths are seperated from plane to plane...
Use F5 and zoom out behind the planes, and make screen shots of that if you won't except it this way, sheesh.
-
Thx Jig, nice work.
-
Show me a film of a sortie where you get kills at that distance. Please. Do you have any idea how many times I've asked that question and not had a single film show up?
Then with all due respect Lephturn, you must have been asleep at the time.
I posted a film a couple of months ago whereby I nailed a Mustang at 1000 yds with my convergence set to 300. Anyone who seriously contends that long range gunnery in AH is NOT a joke is either asleep at the wheel or has their own reasons for wanting this idiocy to continue (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Leave it to RAM to spend 1/2 a page rambling and ad aboslutely nothing to the conversation.
No RAM, nobody is cutting Grunherz up. I dispute some of his claims, but not him. In fact I welcome the discussion, I think it helps clear a few things up.
BTW, nobody else is going to get treated the way you do. No one else is willing to post that much drivel... they just don't have the time to build that kind of a reputation.
BTW Leph, what was the point of your above post? First you rag on RAM for 'half a page of rambling' then you follow with a post which adds nothing to the discussion and even less to your reputation.
If you've got a point - make it. If all you are interested in is character assasination - try AGW.
[This message has been edited by Jekyll (edited 12-15-2000).]
-
Those pix don't realy explain what I'm talking about. Fire some MG 151 then Hispanos, watch how the MG 151 spray all over, the Hispanos stay closer together.
-
Originally posted by Nath-BDP:
Those pix don't realy explain what I'm talking about. Fire some MG 151 then Hispanos, watch how the MG 151 spray all over, the Hispanos stay closer together.
Like this?
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum9/HTML/001176.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum9/HTML/001176.html)
-
yup
-
Originally posted by hazed-:
I have been killed at these distances. dont try and claim grunhertz is imagining things.
why is it i dont see spits ot typhoons hitting me at these distances? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Something has to be done on this.
If Htc posted their info the arguements would end.
CALL ME PARANOID OR WHATEVER..
but my personal veiw is the cosair being the favourite of the americans has had the most favourable specs modeled.Nowhere have i personally read accounts of its amazing ability to perform so well.Ive have read accounts by pilots stateing that it was big,heavy,fast and hard hitting (with .50s in the article) Pilots talked of keeping fast and 'never' turning with the enemy.
we have the F4c model!
200 odd made but freely available in AH.
The hispanos were good guns from what ive read but in the same book there was a bold statement about the german 30mm being able to totally destroy an aircraft with 1 round! There are no such stories of the hispano.
All the books ive read over the years have given me my view on aircraft/weapons etc and I have always had the impression that the LW aircraft were ahead of their time and superior in performance (at different stages)but were in short supply (late in war)and so ineffectual.Well we are not short of supply/numbers in AH so why isnt everyone flying them? because they are considerably poorer in performance than thier allied counterparts(in AH with possible niki exception).
Hispanos were good i accept..better than mg151? not according to the pilots that faced mg151's and if anything there is more mentions of jams with hispanos than praise of their ability to hit at extreme range.
So PLEASE someone show me where is this FABLED DATA???what do you people base your statements on? have you ever flown these planes? fired the guns? i very much doubt it...so show us where you learned the info
I was thinking that when the perk system arrives how about we make any aircraft with a lower than 400 production a perk plane?
Id be happy(!) to be shot with overmodelled guns if i knew the guy flying them had earned a flight in it.I'd overlook the fact that i think they are lasers.
hazed
Hazed the numbers that make the Hispano supperior to the other cannons have been posted many times. The test flights that show that the allied aircraft were often supperior to the german ones have been on the record in your country for over 50 years.
Right on paper it is easy to see that the Hispano is supperior to the 151 in range accureacy and hitting power. But there is no historical evidence that it had the kill at range ability that the AH Hispano still has.
This indicates to me that it is not more data on the hispano that Pyro needs but further variables in the gunnery engine.
The proposal that Pyro made about changeing the dispersal of rounds might make a huge difference.
The range counter is an issue
There is no real reason for a player to be told the exact range to the yard of an enemy plane ever. have a 1k 2k 3k indicator. A 500+ indicator and a 200+ indicator. Then the disadvantage of the sim representation for range finding is overcome but not at the expence of providing better then laser range finding on every plane within a 4k range.
Imagine how borring the tank game would be if we had range to ground targets....hits out too 3.5k....all the time.
-
I'm still fond of my solution for the range icons.
Have the ID range the same as it is now, or slightly shorter.
Replace the range number with "+"s and "-"s to give a crude indication of how fast you are closing on the target or how fast he is extending.
For example, a 190 that you were quickly overtaking would be displayed as follows:
190
++++
A Typhoon that was slowly extending from you would be displayed like:
Typh
-
A Yak that is neither extending much or closing much would simply be displayed as:
Yak
A Spitfire that you are gaining on at a moderate rate would be:
Spit
++
A P-51 extending at a moderate rate would be:
P51
--
What do you guys think?
Would that solve the range number as firing solution indicater problem?
Sisu
-Karnak
-
Good idea Karnak. Couple that with a gunsight which can be expanded or contracted for range (like they've had in AW since forever) and there's no real reason to have true range data on icons at all (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
Sorry guys, been flying P51 this tour, its the uber plane, 32/1 K/D ratio in it. Next month I'm gonna fly Rams FW190 and get a 50 to 1 K/D ratio in it to prove its uber too. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Sorry guys, been flying P51 this tour, its the uber plane, 32/1 K/D ratio in it. ^
If you fly to live, for sure, it is. In fact its the best arena plane, I've said it since I first came here.
But if you fly to live you will be very bored much of the time (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
And dont worry, I highly doubt you can achieve something better than a 4 K/D in a fw190A5 (if you fly it to fight, that is)...wich is MY 190, btw, not the A8 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 12-16-2000).]
-
still don't see a film here of someone killin at 900+....
AKSKurj
-
While I havent experienced any 900 yard kills on either end it seems to me that it would just have to be a luck shot, according to Shaws book/gunnery chapter you would have to have your nose at least 16 ft above the targert to overcome the gravity accelleration drop, in addtion the energy loss at range would be tremendous as would projectile sepatation, and with your nose that high and leading to boot I'd be surprised if you could even see the target
So the above 900 yard test leaves me wondering where the nose up attitude is or should be to get the kill? I know AH models the gravity drop as you can see the arc of the tracer fire.
Is Shaw wrong that with a muzzel velocity of 2880 you should see a 16ft drop in at one second out? Even at 300 yards and on 6 you should be aming about 5 ft above you target so 900 seems like a miracle shot to me and one that should seldomly occur.
Not sure what the weight is of the 20mm round in question but imparted energy should drop off much faster that mg's so it seems like pyhsics says you got damn lucky (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-
i got film of straight up shooting where he scores damaging hits at 900yards.
-
Just to add something to the discussion.
If you happen to be under fire, you did something very wrong. No matter how strong or weak enemy guns are.
Work on your approach instead.
Consider a successful sortie the one where you landed kills and not a single shot was ever fired at you. Hispanos can have all the power in the world, but they are not dangerous until they start firing backwards from enemy blindspot (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
P.S.
I really really really like Karnak’s “+/-“ idea.
-
Posted by Jekyll:
I wonder why the RAF bothered to put 40mm cannon on the Hurricane IID if their regular Hispanos could kill tanks in one or two passes?
Good question. Still unanswered, tho. During the last two months of fighting in Tunisia, No.6 Squadron's Hurricanes MkIID (40mm cannon armed) flew 115 sorties claiming hits on 26 Panzer IV (none destroyed) and 37 Panzer III (17 destroyed).
Source: "Aggressors: Tank Buster Vs. Combat Vehicle" by Alex Vanags-Baginskis, Rikyu Watanabe
[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 12-17-2000).]
-
Originally posted by gatt:
Posted by Jekyll:
Good question. Still unanswered, tho. During the last two months of fighting in Tunisia, No.6 Squadron's Hurricanes MkIID (40mm cannon armed) flew 115 sorties claiming hits on 26 Panzer IV (none destroyed) and 37 Panzer III (17 destroyed).
Source: "Aggressors: Tank Buster Vs. Combat Vehicle" by Alex Vanags-Baginskis, Rikyu Watanabe
And Beaufighters with 4x20mm hispano flew 35 sorties killing 3054 tanks, isnt it? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
<G,D,R>
-
It looks like a concession for playability. I've red that also Typhoon's performance against heavy tanks in Normandy was disappointing. But what actually puzzles me is: "If a 2x20mm combination can open a tank, then what are they able to do against a plane?". In other words, is Hispanos over-lethality-against-armour effective also against planes?
Well, being often on the receiving end, I could say "yes", but I can be biased by my pride (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
(http://web.tiscalinet.it/gatt/logo2.gif)
[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 12-17-2000).]
-
HTC please dont ignore this stuff, dont you guys care? If you are busy with 105, then just say so. But not acknowleding this very reasonable discussion on chog Hispano performance seems wrong. Once again post something, anything, just to show you are hearing our concerns.
-
quote (paraphrased):
If you're too busy to say anything, just say so.
-
Grunherz, HTC have been over this topic several times before you started flying here, and I think they've said all they are going to say.
In particular, read what Pyro said here: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/002456.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/002456.html)
-
Hi
I saw that graphic before, what I see is a slightly bigger charge mated with a nearly identical shaped/sized warhead. The graphic is very nice but is it really enough evidence of chog Hispano killing power out to 900yds? What from the graphic proves that Hispanos killed tanks in 1 or 2 passes every time? Its just not a valid comparison, and now with Jigsters long range dispersion tests, we see that chog Hispanos seem much better/accurate at extreme ranges than the Hispanos on Spit or Typhoon. Again it just seems wierd that this one plane has such distinctive capabilities, even compared to others with "same" weapons.
thanks GRUNHERZ
-
I've nothing against Jigster's test, I'm glad someone went to the trouble to do so, but if you look closely it's very arbitrary where you draw the circles. Some are taking tracers on the way out (if you draw from gunpod obviously it's going to be a circle darn near the entire screen) and on the other end some are falling way past convergence.
It's closer than anything I've seen anyone else put up, but I think for true accuracy you need to fire at a backstop of some sorts and chart bullet strikes (maybe a custom terrain with cliff wall at end of runway?).
-
Fatty's right, and I'm sure Jig would agree.
-
Comparing the grouping or scattering of bullets shot from different planes in ridiculous.
You should all know that each plane flies differently. On fo the best features of the chog in AH is not the cannons..its how SMOOTH it flies. If im not on target I give it a little rudder and as smooth as butter my nose slides over and BANG! I anil the target.
I have tried just about eery other plane and boy those things are wobbley! The darn things bounce around so bad I don't see how anyone can hit anything.
I think instead of comparing guns you guys should be compariong flight characteristics. A smaller plane will definately react differently from a big plane when firing 20MM Cannon rounds.
And it doesn't matter if they ar both in level flight, all it takes is a minor jolt or vibration and at 900yds bullets will be spraying all over the place.
But the Chog flies smoother than any other plane I have tried (except bombers). Take that and add Cannons and you have the perfect plane for a crappy shot like me. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Now lets talk about those DWEEEBISH Typhoons!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/mad.gif) he he he
-
I hope HTC fixes those weak Hispannies. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Sorry just had to buck the trend. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
-
It will take awhile but I'll set up a tile with range markers and use a hill backstop. But not before 1.05 comes out If anyone knows the length of the AH runway it would help a bit, other wise something like plane length will have to be used.
Btw if plane size was a factor (which it should) why on earth does the P-38 go all over the place? @ 15,000lbs, AND it has a nose wheel, directly stablizing it on the ground.
Btw the comparison I made uses the highest, lowest, and widest points in a given burst of fire. When firing the same guns they should all have the same range respectively within AH.
-
It is rediculous to ask Pyro to prove the Hispano is not porked.
Compared to what? do we have absolute limits as to what was possible in WW2? are those numbers and ranges known? I have never seen them. You see lots of "I liked to shoot at this range" and "That dummy shot at that range". But hard numbers that said what % chance at what range. I think not. If you have them post them.
We definatly dont want a game that makes all rounds ineffective at 651 yards. That is definatly not realistic. So how they different guns and platforms degenerate at longer and extreme ranges has to be part of the game engine. And it might need some adjustments still. But not very big ones, not matter what is done a 4 hispano load out will out perform most any other load out in the war. And with all that ammo on the hog c and such a smooth and pointable gun platform...it will hurt ya.
No one seems to be screaming
"he shot me at 750 yards in a 1c!.."
Although it probably happens alot.
Is it worth making such a rukas over that last 75-150 yards in the leathality of the Hog C?
If they remove the range finder, what will people complain about.. they wont know at what range they were killed...
"That hog C got me at really long range!"
-
Well said, Pongo.
-
Man, there are a lot of brown noses in this joint thats for sure.
AH is a great piece of work but it has some serious flaws that need serious attention.
Yeager
-
Originally posted by Yeager:
Man, there are a lot of brown noses in this joint thats for sure.
AH is a great piece of work but it has some serious flaws that need serious attention.
Yeager
Yes, beginning with the P51D, it is seriously overmodeled. Never with a Chog could I attain a 34 to 1 K/D ratio. It's uber,please fix it.
-
According to him he was actually further away then what the films shows (he said 1.4)
This is impossible.
If you want to adress the issues.. get up and make a film of someone firing few rounds and scoring a kill at 900 yards (on the SHOOTERS fe). That's all you have to do.
Got news for you... if someone were to fire off 2/3rds of the ammo in a 1C... they should hit something at 900 yards if only by luck.
The farthest sniper shot was with a .50 calibre round at over 1400 yards. Tell me one more time how a round some 70% bigger shouldn't do damage at 900 yards.
Time to get your heads out of the sand guys:
- 20 MM rounds can kill at 900 yards.
- AH does not make 900 yard shots easy. If it did... I think there would be a film of it here.
- The plane firing from behind you is ALWAYS CLOSER on his FE than you see him on yours. ALWAYS.
- A gun with less muzzle velocity is going to drop a considerable distance over 1000 yards... remember drop is not in velocity.. it is in acceleration (feet per seconds squared)
It seems this whole thread is loaded with half-truths and misinformation. All of that can be cleared up quite quickly... with a film.
AKDejaVu
-
Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
This is impossible.
If you want to adress the issues.. get up and make a film of someone firing few rounds and scoring a kill at 900 yards (on the SHOOTERS fe). That's all you have to do.
Got news for you... if someone were to fire off 2/3rds of the ammo in a 1C... they should hit something at 900 yards if only by luck.
The farthest sniper shot was with a .50 calibre round at over 1400 yards. Tell me one more time how a round some 70% bigger shouldn't do damage at 900 yards.
Time to get your heads out of the sand guys:
- 20 MM rounds can kill at 900 yards.
- AH does not make 900 yard shots easy. If it did... I think there would be a film of it here.
- The plane firing from behind you is ALWAYS CLOSER on his FE than you see him on yours. ALWAYS.
- A gun with less muzzle velocity is going to drop a considerable distance over 1000 yards... remember drop is not in velocity.. it is in acceleration (feet per seconds squared)
It seems this whole thread is loaded with half-truths and misinformation. All of that can be cleared up quite quickly... with a film.
AKDejaVu[/b]
Once again. The ability of the Hispano to kill or cripple in AH at 900 on the recievers FE is not really up for debate. It happend infront of everyone at the Con.
Yeager, My only point is how do you establish what is too far? I have looked into the Hispanos war record every where I could for a year. All I am conviced of is that it was much better then 8 brownings. There is nothing to indicate that I can find that it was the world beater we have here. But how many times is it constuctive to bring it up? Pyro knows. He is looking at it as he gets the chance. Does he have to post to that effect every time someone is on the recieving end of the chog and wants to make sure we all know it can shoot far in case we missed it allready?
-
Hmmm I need some conversion help I guess??? how does 3/4 of an inch come out to 19mm???
I see 3/4 of an inch as something much HIGHER in mm. I think that the 20's should penetrate the IVG EVERYWHERE accept the front armour and the turret mantle. The ONLY valid rap of the F4U-1C is its production numbers, otherwise I think it is performing as well as can be expected in a sim. My question is WHY .50 cals don't stop an osti with only 20mm of armour on the OPEN turret.
BigJim
-
I dont much care to get into the debate over whether these 20mm quad mounts on the Chog are accurate either basllistically or from a damage modeling point of view. In my opinion, gameplay was hurt when this quad mount was introduced into AH. Nothing more, nothing less.
Introducing this game play killing joke of a fighter plane was a watershed event in my opinion and AH has not been better off since.
Granted, the Chog dependant generation will never survive without it and will always condemn me for my dissent against their inability to do any better with any less.
So it is written, so it shall be done (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Love,
Yeager
-
Beats me Jigster, but good luck on the test, I'd love to see it. The more I think about this the more I'd love to have an offline target range of sorts to test head positions and gunsights.
Any of you talented or even not so talented editors come up with a yardmarked runway complete with backstop and you'll be as popular as Nuttz! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
-
Originally posted by BigJim:
Hmmm I need some conversion help I guess??? how does 3/4 of an inch come out to 19mm???
I see 3/4 of an inch as something much HIGHER in mm
yes, you seem to need some conversion help (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
1 inch= 25.3mm
3/4 inch= 18.975mm
You got it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 12-18-2000).]
-
Originally posted by Yeager:
In my opinion, gameplay was hurt when this quad mount was introduced into AH. Nothing more, nothing less.
Love,
Yeager
Funny, Yeager, I feel the same way about that P51D...it upsets game play just as much IMO. Good thing I haven't (Yet) gone around and made a big stink about it or it may be as popular as the Chog!(Rip runs over to Gameplay Forum) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
Once again. The ability of the Hispano to kill or cripple in AH at 900 on the recievers FE is not really up for debate. It happend infront of everyone at the Con.
You mean this time?
The 2 vs 2 duel at the con was ended when Drex tore Ripsnort appart at 800 plus in a p38.
What gets me is how the number magically builds. Well, 900 is very close to 800... though not as close to 1400... but the guy said he was actually farther away than that...
As for the gameplay issues... I don't necessarily disagree.. but that isn't what this thread is about. I am not a big fan of "ooo... an anti-hispano thread... lets hop on" menatallity I see here.
The whine was about if Hispanos got RL 900 yard kills in WW2. Dunno if they did. I do,however, seriously doubt that it was done by a pilot after getting killed 4 times that day already.
Anyone know why some pilots were more accurate than others in WW2? Statistics showed that kids that grew up hunting had a much better understanding of lead and were more experienced. Why would that matter?... well imagine if every one of them got to practice 1000 times a month against real moving targets. How much of a difference would that make?
The magic formula in all of this is practice. The 20mm can go 1000 meeters. Any part of arguing that it can't hit at that range has to revolve around the pilot. It is possible.. it should be possible and a pilot needs to consider that option.
AKDejaVu
-
Drex didn't 'tear me apart'...he pinged one of my engines at (D900 on my FE) and apparently he was really spraying...after he finished my engine, he said he didn't have much ammo left for finishing me off, but he did.
-
btw did you notice he did no damage at that distance?
I'm not advocating anything is wrong.
But those hits are possible, which is what was asked for. Same with the gun thingies. Never said they were wrong but they *ARE* different.
-
Btw this has yet to be addressed:
From Verm's post:
That adds up to four 20's equaling twelve 50 calibers, judged by those standards. Of course you have other advantages of the 20. You have much greater penetration of armor. The 20 will go thru 3/4 inch of armor at 500 yards, while the 50 cal, will go through only .43 inchs.
Okay if this is taken as a vaild source for gun reliability let's use it for armor too.
Panzer IV H armor:
Front Armor = 82.0
Side Armor = 30.0
Rear Armor = 21.0
Front Turret = 80.0
Side Turret = 33.0
Rear Turret = 30.0
Top Armor = 10.0
According to the book, at 500 yards (with no ammo specified) it can penetrate 19mm of armor.
So looking at that, the Panzer IV is invulnerable to the Hispano with the exception of the roof armor of the engine starting at the turrent ring and ending at the grill hinge.
Not to instigate or anything, but seriously, if you going to use a source for proving motives in one area, why not use it for the rest? Confirmation bias? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
It's no biggie, but still...
-
Originally posted by Jigster:
Btw this has yet to be addressed:
From Verm's post:
That adds up to four 20's equaling twelve 50 calibers, judged by those standards. Of course you have other advantages of the 20. You have much greater penetration of armor. The 20 will go thru 3/4 inch of armor at 500 yards, while the 50 cal, will go through only .43 inchs.
Okay if this is taken as a vaild source for gun reliability let's use it for armor too.
Panzer IV H armor:
Front Armor = 82.0
Side Armor = 30.0
Rear Armor = 21.0
Front Turret = 80.0
Side Turret = 33.0
Rear Turret = 30.0
Top Armor = 10.0
According to the book, at 500 yards (with no ammo specified) it can penetrate 19mm of armor.
So looking at that, the Panzer IV is invulnerable to the Hispano with the exception of the roof armor of the engine starting at the turrent ring and ending at the grill hinge.
Not to instigate or anything, but seriously, if you going to use a source for proving motives in one area, why not use it for the rest? Confirmation bias? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
It's no biggie, but still...
Just curious, but these penetration figures are 1 round fired... If i fired 100 rounds and they all landed within say a 3-4ft square, do ya think they would fight through armor thicker than 3/4" ?
AKskurj
-
Originally posted by SKurj:
Just curious, but these penetration figures are 1 round fired... If i fired 100 rounds and they all landed within say a 3-4ft square, do ya think they would fight through armor thicker than 3/4" ?
AKskurj
As far as real life goes, using AH for a model (For mixed belt purposes, on a plane set up on a gunnery range), let's say 500 yrds, 2 AP + 2 HE + 1 T(AP) belts so you figure the 40 HE rounds are going to be pretty much useless (different trajectory, impact fuse, no penetration, standard Mk 26 Hispano M2 shell) That leaves you with 60 AP rounds. At 500 yards, let's say they hit pretty much on at convergence and the guns are on a very stable platform, so 75% of the rounds land within that square. Thats 45 rounds.
Not taking into consideration armor slope, attack angle, and armor angle to the guns (say it's a chassis sitting broadside level with the guns) we have a prefect gun solution so to speak. More tedious stuff: Depending on how the belt is loaded, the rounds are not going to arrive at once, as some stray outside the square, the gap of HE impacting and popping between the next AP round, etc.
Therefore it's not nearly as many rounds landing on target as it would seem, and thats under Ideal conditions. With enough firing the armor could definately be breeched, but given the nature of how a plane must attack armor, multiple passes on the same section of armor is not a very viable option.
Once you bring a moving plane into the equation, the plane is always going to come in at an off angle to the armor (unless he dives straight down, again not a very good idea) and the rounds are not going to be nearly as concentrated as the move through convergence, etc. So that, and armor slope are most likely going to cut between 45% and 95% of the remaining shells depending on the angle. So let's say 20 rounds actually penetrate. In general the figures like 3/4 inch give a decent margin so the round actually does some damage after it penetrates (meaning it can go through more but will be so slow it won't do diddly). These aren't like large AP rounds, that explode after penetration...they have to do their damage based on speed, and mass.
-
Er rereading the question, and taking into consideration the damage margin, if 100 AP rounds are fire and hit within that square, depending on armor quality it's most likey going to go at least an inch or more, leaving all other things out.
-
I don't usually whine about anything but HOers and Chute Killers. I would like to put in front that I trust Htc and I give them the credit of doing the right thing at each moment. But in this particular issue we should (IMHO) take account of a couple of things.
I trust that all hard data on Hispano's ballistics and damage power has been taken into account, but being such a fabulous weapon (as its numbers suggests) none of its drawbacks has been modelled. I have read on this forum that Hispanos jam easyly. I have read on this forum that pilots risk melting the barrell if they shoot for a long time. If these were real concerns for the Air Force, and were real issues on a real usage of the weapon, again IMHO, they should be modelled. Let's put it the other way: take another weapon with outstanding reliability and lack of firepower. Would you agree to have this handicap not modelled?. On a factual ground, It is a fact that if you hold the trigger too long, you will damage your cannon beyond repair. And it is another fact that Hispanos jammed easyly. Those are unmodelled aspects. I think they should because if you think that we should stick to reality as much as possible, both gunjams and overheating should be taken into acoount. If you think that gameplay should have the edge on this particular issue, the current situation affects deeply the game. Spray 'n pray and HO are most common tactics for C-Hog riders (with a few noticeable exceptions that we all know). I don't feel this is the right way to play this game. AH don't deserve this. Quake does.
Pepe.
-
Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
What gets me is how the number magically builds. Well, 900 is very close to 800... though not as close to 1400... but the guy said he was actually farther away than that...
As for the gameplay issues... I don't necessarily disagree.. but that isn't what this thread is about. I am not a big fan of "ooo... an anti-hispano thread... lets hop on" menatallity I see here.
The whine was about if Hispanos got RL 900 yard kills in WW2. Dunno if they did. I do,however, seriously doubt that it was done by a pilot after getting killed 4 times that day already.
Anyone know why some pilots were more accurate than others in WW2? Statistics showed that kids that grew up hunting had a much better understanding of lead and were more experienced. Why would that matter?... well imagine if every one of them got to practice 1000 times a month against real moving targets. How much of a difference would that make?
The magic formula in all of this is practice. The 20mm can go 1000 meeters. Any part of arguing that it can't hit at that range has to revolve around the pilot. It is possible.. it should be possible and a pilot needs to consider that option.
AKDejaVu
So you dont need to see film any more..now you are busy rationalizing the realism of the long hits.You have changed tacts from this is impossible to why it is reasonable in one post. I gather from that that my post was effective.
RA RA RA
There are many enviromental differences between the real world your farm boys had to fly in and the AH world. We have a much simpler task. Some of those differences made 900 yard shots extremely unlikly in their world. People in AH-land open up at those ranges in certain planes all the time. They quite often have some serios effect on the enemy. Certainly to ignore such fire can be a mistake.
Like I said previosly, Rip would not have been so passive at the controls at 750 yards. He would not have been so passive at the controls if he never knew the exact range to the bad guy either. But knowing drex was at 900 he flew like he had seperated. But he hadnt.. Should he have been is the issue. One of the best pilots in the game was willing to bet that he could win the game at 900 yards if he spent enough ammo(1/5th of the 20mm that a hog c has). I trust his judgment over whether such shots are possible.
-
Pongo,
Anyone that disputes that a Hispano shouldn't be able to kill a plane at 900 yards is wrong.
Anyone that claims the only reason he was killed at 900 yards is because the guns are too uber is wrong.
In every one of these situations, a pilot was aiming those cannons at the enemy. How does the pilot know exactly what the range of his cannons/guns are? How does a pilot know how much to lead in virtually every situation? Is it cannon uberness or is it experience.
This game introduces anomolies that make arguments like you presented flawed. You know... "I have looked into the Hispanos war record every where I could for a year. All I am conviced of is that it was much better then 8 brownings. There is nothing to indicate that I can find that it was the world beater we have here."
The use of history to evaluate performance is flawed in AH. The use of history to justify arguments in AH is flawed. Historically, the pilots did not get the kind of experience that we do. They learned from every engagement they survived... but didn't learn anything when they died. They were punished when they did dangerous threatening things... IF they survived. There was accountability for pushing things too far.
In AH you only learn when flying in the MA. The things you learn over and over in the MA are carried into any battle you have in any arena. There really is no cure.
AKDejaVu
-
This discussion about Drex's 800 yard shot is getting really silly. He was spraying 4 x.50s and maybe a Hispano (if he had ammo left for it). He was firing at 5 .50 rounds for every Hispano round that went out. .50s also have better ballistics so it is likely that he hit only with the .50s.
Here is a quote from Mike Spick's "Allied Fighter Aces of World War II.", Pg 120:
Two Me's dropped on me, but I did a quick wing-over and got on one's tail. He saw me coming and tried to climb away. I figured he must be about 800 yards away and when I got him in the sights I let go of him. It was a full deflection shot, and I had to make plenty of allowance for cannon-drop. I gave him a three-second burst, smack on his starboard flank, and got him in the glycol tank. He started to stream the stuff, leaving a long white trail of smoke.
The pilot in this case, George Beurling achieved 31 kills total and possibly flew a couple of hundred sorties. Lots of players in this game have literally made thousands of kills and flown thousands of sorties. Clearly a lot of AH pilots have had more opportunity to hone their skills than George Beurling had. And if he could make these rare long range shots, then good pilots in this game should also be able to do so.
Hooligan
-
Deja.
Hope you dont hit your but with your head as you circle in this argument.
Hooligan can you make a 800 yard 90 Degree deflection shot with a 3 second burst from a Spit Vb? Ok try it with imperfect guns and imperfect ammo in the blazing sun of the Med in a dirty dusty battle worn Spitfire. Ok just for fun add dysentry and the hostility of your squadron mates.
I dont think the shooting ability of Buzz Beurling is in any threat of being challenged by us.
-
And I can't shoot like drex either (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hooligan
-
me neither <sigh> (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
-
Umm, dunno if this has occured to anyone else but... Buerling may have been bsing or maybe he couldn't judge range too well. Any pilot in WWII could have said 'I got kills at 800+ yards', theres no proof though.
-
yes you can torque i filmed one of thse fights 900yds you hit me good
-
Every round lands somewhere. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-
Originally posted by Nath-BDP:
Umm, dunno if this has occured to anyone else but... Buerling may have been bsing or maybe he couldn't judge range too well. Any pilot in WWII could have said 'I got kills at 800+ yards', theres no proof though.
Didnt want to say it....But it occured to me. He was known to embelish a little.
-
Originally posted by Toad:
Every round lands somewhere. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
They should Toad, but alas in AH they don't...
Fire hispanos straight down from 15,000ft and they never reach the ground... lol range of them things is 5000yrds in RL
just sayin..
AKskurj
-
Yanno, hard to believe the M-16 MGMC's opened up at over 4,000 yards. I've heard thats why it was so much more effective then the M-15a1, probablity of hitting was much higher.
-
How does the pilot know exactly what the range of his cannons/guns are? How does a pilot know how much to lead in virtually every situation? Is it cannon uberness or is it experience.
It's neither.... it's the fact that AH pilots have something real life WW2 pilots never had .... laser ranging eyeballs which can measure the distance to an enemy aircraft accurately to the YARD!
Long range deflection shooting becomes nothing more difficult than, "He's at 500yds, so I need to put his nose right on the edge of my gunsight". No skill involved.
Get rid of the ranges inside 1000yds and you immediately bring the fights in closer. Then all the argument regarding 'uber' guns etc becomes academic.
Think of this. We have a Year 2000 game using the same icon system that was in use in AW back in 1985.
Introducing this game play killing joke of a fighter plane was a watershed event in my opinion and AH has not been better off since.
Hmmm I remember hearing almost exactly the same comments when the 4-cannon armed F4U-4 was introduced into Warbirds.
------------------
=357th Pony Express=
Aces High Training Corps
[This message has been edited by Jekyll (edited 12-20-2000).]
-
I second that Jeckill. Only I would extend that range up to 1.5 / 2k. I think that with an average puter, playability due to sight limitations only is an issue over 2-3k. Range finder should not exist within 1.5/2k.
Cheers,
Pepe
-
Yeah, I remember what a mess was the WarBirds main arena when they brought the 4x20mm F4U-4. There were those blue monsters buzzing all around and spraying everything with cannon shells (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
Gatt you say that like it's a bad thing, now where is the nice Sig of your?
-
Torque,
promise me that you'll take me aboard for a ride when you get the 4x20mm F4U-4. Then I'll give my account data to AXE. And then we'll shoot down GATT in his spaghetti-camo C.205V (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
You Pony Express stop shooting me down, its XMAS! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
(http://web.tiscalinet.it/gatt/logo3.gif)
-
Hey those Sigs keep getting better, Heh ya it does look like spaghetti cheers. Merry Xmas
-
Range icons...
here's my latest suggestion
range within 1k, just - if he's closing, + if the distance is widening
range over 1k
-<2 indicates a range of less than 2k,(greater than 1k o course) and that he is closing. +<3 indicates he is within 3k and range is increasing. From my time in the MA at least I think the range icon must show to 5k. Between 3 and 5k its real hard to tell (if at all) whether or not that bogey is closing. (17" monitor 1024 res 16bt colour)
jus an idea
AKskurj