Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: JB42 on November 01, 2005, 08:12:03 PM
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So i'm a little slow, but it just occured to me what the true problem with buff guns are. I will grant the argument that in RL it was highly probable that more than one set of guns were focused on a single attacker. The problem is, with the current setup, all those guns are essential operated by a single person. In RL each gun position had to evaluate their own gun solution. This probably led to a lot of missed shots. Not so in AH now. They all fire to the same gun solution. When TOD rolls out I see this as being it's major down fall. Not many AHers are going to want to lose their avatar to robot gunners all firing at the same place regardless of their different position and POV.
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Actually, a player at each gun should be more effective in general. There were often times when the fire control person would say over the comms "Not yet.. hold your fire... NOW!" and all guns would fire at once.
In AH, however, the guns all converge at 500yds, so that most guns miss depending on the range -- in real life with a person at each gun, the convergence would adjust for whatever range the target is at.
So it's a mixed bag of things... I think it'll be fine for TOD. I just hope the AI bombers don't have good gunners. I can deal with a player gunner. They usually blow their shots until I can kill 'em. But AI controlled guns... them's the unknown variable... I hope it's nothing like the otto BS of WB.
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Points well taken Krusty, but i don't think you see where i'm coming from. Even if the fire control master orders them to all fire at the same time, that doesn't mean that any of them could hit the broad side of a barn. For example, if the order where to be given as the target lay 200 yds off the tail, thats 200 yds for the tail gunner but somewhere around 210 yards for the top turret. What if the tail gunner aims assuming the target is at 190 yds and the top turret thinks it's at 230 yds. They both miss. Hypothetical and maybe a bit extreme, but both gunner miss. Not in AH, they both aim at the EXACT same distance until the target is hit, then shortly there after, shredded.
Also, i don't think there is a "real" convergence for buff guns. I have been shredded at 1000 yds. If they converge at 500, then the x spread of the convergence would mean only one or two guns would hit me. I can safely say, that is not the case lol.
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Well the same goes for the system in AH: Even if, hypothetically, 2 out of 4 positions can hit a target rear and to the side (Say waist and ball turret actually know how to shoot) but the other two don't, in AH it's not so easy, and if you miss the shot you miss from every gun. At least it's consistent. When you hit you hit, but when you miss you miss big.
EDIT: It doesn't matter how far the top position thinks the enemy is, compared to the tail, because each is independently going for the best shot he knows how to make. See what I mean?
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If Ottos fired and tracked like the McHale's navy field and carrier defense ground crews we have would you be happy?
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I kill bombers 10 to 1. I don't see any problem with the bomber guns.
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lol and i can take down planes with my bombers starting at 1k:O
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Not to mention that I doubt they'd open up on a plane that flew between two bombers for fear of hitting their own planes. Ok given that if you, as a fighter, ever found yourself that close, you'd probably already be in a heap of trouble.
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JB, use hispanos hizookas (better 4 of them) and see what a difference it makes ... you can even fire at 1000yds.
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Ya the guns are easy, and dont involve all the intricate problems of real air to air gunnery, but on the flip side, the fighter planes dont either, so it all comes out in the wash.
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Originally posted by JB42
Points well taken Krusty, but i don't think you see where i'm coming from. Even if the fire control master orders them to all fire at the same time, that doesn't mean that any of them could hit the broad side of a barn. For example, if the order where to be given as the target lay 200 yds off the tail, thats 200 yds for the tail gunner but somewhere around 210 yards for the top turret. What if the tail gunner aims assuming the target is at 190 yds and the top turret thinks it's at 230 yds. They both miss. Hypothetical and maybe a bit extreme, but both gunner miss. Not in AH, they both aim at the EXACT same distance until the target is hit, then shortly there after, shredded.
Also, i don't think there is a "real" convergence for buff guns. I have been shredded at 1000 yds. If they converge at 500, then the x spread of the convergence would mean only one or two guns would hit me. I can safely say, that is not the case lol.
You're not talking about any significant difference in point of aim for a straight-on shot with a .50, jb42. Lead is a different issue, of course.
I don't have the ballistics tables handy, but I would bet that there isn't an inch of difference in bullet trajectory for a .50 between 100 and 400 yards.
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Originally posted by JB42
Not so in AH now. They all fire to the same gun solution. When TOD rolls out I see this as being it's major down fall. Not many AHers are going to want to lose their avatar to robot gunners all firing at the same place regardless of their different position and POV.
This has been and will be my biggest concern about ToD.
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In a situation where the con is approaching from the rear, the bomber has a tremendous advantage. I've read through HT's thoughts on multiple gunners, and understand no one would want to ride along for hours sitting in the waist gun position, so I can accept that we need some compromises. However, the ability of the bombers to pick off single targets moving at 300mph + at ranges the fighter is not effective, is a bit too much.
The current bomber guns could easily be the death of ToD. Recoil and buffeting or something along those lines would be a great solution, I think.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
[B no one would want to ride along for hours sitting in the waist gun position,[/B]
We did it in Air Warrior.
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I miss the OTTO solution. I.e., AI firing in a realistic way, not thru fuselages, not all togheter but every bomber of the vic to the closest fighter.
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Originally posted by Voldemort
We did it in Air Warrior.
Okay, so did I, but the Deathstar crowd isn't exactly the norm in here. I do miss the intercomm system though- surely one of the best features our bombers do not have.
Anyway, point being, if we are never going to get a multiple gunner setup, bomber guns should, IMHO, be tweaked.
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Buff guns are nothing, I agree with HONDO 100%
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I don't know about you guys, but I am awful at shooting down buffs.
Unless it is absolutely vital (like defending a CV) I won't even go near them.
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Don't confuse the quality of your opponent, and the effectiveness of the guns. Fly the bombers some, and try a Deathstar run.
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Why isnt muzzle jump modeled or g-forces on gunners when a plane is turning/diving/climbing?
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Because 1) for the most part bombers don't pull too many moves while gunning, and if you have a pilot/gunner pair, the gunner's aim is already screwed big time because the pilot is moving around.
P.S. We *had* an intercom in Ah1. I used to use it all the time with AKNimitz in lancasters. I think it was 111 and made your text white, like you privately tuned to a player.
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I think what he is saind is that when the guns hit you, they all hit you at the same time. So, instead of one guner putting a couple of rounds in you, they all do at the same time and at the same spot. Convergence can be adjusted in one fo the files I think. In any case, if you ever watch any gun cams from Germans attacking bombers, you will see that they totaly ignored the buffs guns. Also, a few 20mm in the tail gunner position should atlist disable it, if not killing the gunner. After all, those are the same 20mm that can kill ack guns by exploding somewhere near them and kill you when you shoot a target thats too close to you. Bottom line, buff guns == total BS.
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Bomber gun convergence cannot be adjusted so far as I know. It is hard coded to converge at 500 yards. Anything much closer or further away and only the gun(s) you are directly manning will be hitting, or if another gun is hitting yours will be missing.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Bomber gun convergence cannot be adjusted so far as I know. It is hard coded to converge at 500 yards. Anything much closer or further away and only the gun(s) you are directly manning will be hitting, or if another gun is hitting yours will be missing.
You could be right. I remember reading instructions on how to do it, just can't remember when, how, or if true, lol Getting old
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The other night I was 1.5 at 7:oo low to a lanc formation. He didn't just ping my P-38, but with one short burst sent me to the tower. Sorry, but that was just not right!:O Damage, yeah, I can see that, but a total wipeout, no.
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Originally posted by Gato
The other night I was 1.5 at 7:oo low to a lanc formation. He didn't just ping my P-38, but with one short burst sent me to the tower. Sorry, but that was just not right!:O Damage, yeah, I can see that, but a total wipeout, no.
Pilot kill? The P-38 is more vulnerable to those due to the lack of a big, solid engine sitting in front of the pilot acting as armor. If so, well, a .50 cal hitting a guy is going to kill him. It doesn't take 20 hits to do it either.
The Mossie and Bf110 have the same problem.
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No, it was not a pilot wound/kill, the plane went poof. There was another guy who saw it from behind me. He too was in the tower a minute later, same thing. As a note, he was in a spit, so it was NOT a P38 thing. He said it was a great show, flame, smoke and little pieces falling. I'd tell you his name and that of the lanc, but I just don't remember them.
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All the bomber that have "formation" option CAN"T up a base with ord down.
Q ;Why can i up IL2s ??:confused:
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Ya cant kill buffs with LW planes unless ya close to within lethal range of the 50's...I ve had nikis, Chogs, etc sit back at 1k or so, lob cannons in, take me apart..LW rides dont have that luxury..30's have better trajectory, but not that much
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Originally posted by Gato
No, it was not a pilot wound/kill, the plane went poof. There was another guy who saw it from behind me. He too was in the tower a minute later, same thing. As a note, he was in a spit, so it was NOT a P38 thing. He said it was a great show, flame, smoke and little pieces falling. I'd tell you his name and that of the lanc, but I just don't remember them.
If you found youself in tower it was pilot kill. No matter what saw other men, "flame, smoke and little pieces falling" are just for show. You cannt see them already (after pk) but others can.
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Originally posted by ghi
All the bomber that have "formation" option CAN"T up a base with ord down.
Q ;Why can i up IL2s ??:confused:
back in WWII ghi they only upped bombers loaded with bombs never did they up bombers empty if bombers upped they were uppin for a mission so in this case we can not up bombers with no ords cause you have to up bombers with ords in them. IL2s where also used to defend against low alt bombers and the wirlbwinds thats why they have great noses on them so they can take a hit or two but if you pop them in the tail one hit from osty and bye bye IL2 hope this helps to understand it
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Bomber guns are alot like fighter pilots or bikes.......its not the bike its the guy on the Bike
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The difference to real life is that irl all buff gunners must do their own aiming. They don't have the benefit of aiming through the tailgunner position and shoot according to that information.
Instead the side gunners have a very limited visibility through their observation hole making them blind to the enemy which only top, bottom or rear turret gunner sees.
That added to reaction time means that a zooming enemy will pass the line of sight before the gunner can even react. In AH the player just follows the enemy from the ideal observation point and each gun shoots whenever it is possible to the aiming solution.
Imagine the difference - seeing enemy all the way and aiming vs being surprised by a passing enemy with your gun pointing elsewhere.
In short, individual gunners will always be less effective than AH single control is now. Against multiple enemies there is mostly one (1) gun more pointed at the enemy on average. That's not much given the fact that IRL bomber gunners were also targeted and disabled easily. MG rounds through fuselage killed gunners from the first passes.
AH needs cannon hits and serious damage before a gunner pos dies.
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Another problem, which I'm surprised you guys didn't mention, is that the bullet streams from one bomber passes through other bombers without inflicting damage. There's no "interrupter gear" in work for drone buffs, like the one we have applies to the vertical stab.
As a result, the historically more probable method of buff hunting doesn't work. Technically, the outer most buff should be the most vulnerable. In a 3-plane formation like we have, hitting the left or right drones in respective directions should be able to negate the fire from the other two buffs - except it doesn't.
In short, where ever you are, as long as the gun position has a firing angle, you will ALWAYS face multiple guns from all three bombers.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
The difference to real life is that irl all buff gunners must do their own aiming. They don't have the benefit of aiming through the tailgunner position and shoot according to that information.
Instead the side gunners have a very limited visibility through their observation hole making them blind to the enemy which only top, bottom or rear turret gunner sees.
That added to reaction time means that a zooming enemy will pass the line of sight before the gunner can even react. In AH the player just follows the enemy from the ideal observation point and each gun shoots whenever it is possible to the aiming solution.
Imagine the difference - seeing enemy all the way and aiming vs being surprised by a passing enemy with your gun pointing elsewhere.
In short, individual gunners will always be less effective than AH single control is now. Against multiple enemies there is mostly one (1) gun more pointed at the enemy on average. That's not much given the fact that IRL bomber gunners were also targeted and disabled easily. MG rounds through fuselage killed gunners from the first passes.
AH needs cannon hits and serious damage before a gunner pos dies.
thats fine cause i would rather have LTAR manning my buff guns then me havin to pop in them to shoot some dweeb down at 1k:aok
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there is no real problem with the buff guns.
If you sit still on a buff's tail and he kills you from 1000yrds, then he is a good shot and you are pwned.
the only semi problem is, as stated, that they fire through each other giving more lead out than possible.
if you are being killed by buffs more than killing them, you are not attacking them correctly for the AH world. doesnt matter what real life was like right now, adapt to what we have or be shot down again.
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Originally posted by LTARkilz
back in WWII ghi they only upped bombers loaded with bombs never did they up bombers empty if bombers upped they were uppin for a mission so in this case we can not up bombers with no ords cause you have to up bombers with ords in them. IL2s where also used to defend against low alt bombers and the wirlbwinds thats why they have great noses on them so they can take a hit or two but if you pop them in the tail one hit from osty and bye bye IL2 hope this helps to understand it
One period in two paragraphs...new record! :D
The basic reason in easy-mode terms; Big bombers are made to bomb stuff. They always carry bombs. IL2s were made as a generic defense and didn't always carry bombs or rockets. Sometimes the beat on planes, others they strafed stuff. As long as you don't have bombs or rockets, you can up when ord is shot. Same goes for PTs.
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Originally posted by OOZ662
One period in two paragraphs...new record! :D
The basic reason in easy-mode terms; Big bombers are made to bomb stuff. They always carry bombs. IL2s were made as a generic defense and didn't always carry bombs or rockets. Sometimes the beat on planes, others they strafed stuff. As long as you don't have bombs or rockets, you can up when ord is shot. Same goes for PTs.
first of all i dont care how many periods i add in my text be lucky i added one moil hates it when i dont add any of them and if you pork ords you can still spawn ptboats you just cant up them with rokits and torps got to kill vh to stop ptboats
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Originally posted by ghi
All the bomber that have "formation" option CAN"T up a base with ord down.
Q ;Why can i up IL2s ??:confused:
cause your ghi