Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: navajoboy on November 02, 2005, 06:12:29 PM
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Originally posted by SkyRock
Thank you very much, Nav, for your time sir and I am as well sorry about the thread hijack. I would like to know more about both and have a couple of books that you might like to read on the Lakota day by day experience for the 4 years before littlebighorn and on through wounded knee. The author is extremely detailed almost to the point of overkill, which is what intertested me. If I am not mistaken, there were some navajo that scouted for custer and the 7th back then. Oooops! (new thread needed) Sorry Nomak!
Now im not sure of that happened or not. I do know that the Navajos had contact with the Lakota people. The navajos were mainly in the Mountains of New Mexico and in Arizona. I dont recall any history of travel into the Colorado area. The colorado area was mainly occupied by the Utes (navajo NME!) So if there was Navajo Scouts, that would be new to me. I believe the scouts were either Pawnee or Arikara. Im not sure about that.
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Originally posted by navajoboy
Now im not sure of that happened or not. I do know that the Navajos had contact with the Lakota people. The navajos were mainly in the Mountains of New Mexico and in Arizona. I dont recall any history of travel into the Colorado area. The colorado area was mainly occupied by the Utes (navajo NME!) So if there was Navajo Scouts, that would be new to me. I believe the scouts were either Pawnee or Arikara. Im not sure about that.
And don't forget the most famous scout, Bloody Knife, he was a Crow.
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Originally posted by BBQ_Bob
And don't forget the most famous scout, Bloody Knife, he was a Crow.
Interesting !
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Originally posted by navajoboy
Now im not sure of that happened or not. I do know that the Navajos had contact with the Lakota people. The navajos were mainly in the Mountains of New Mexico and in Arizona. I dont recall any history of travel into the Colorado area. The colorado area was mainly occupied by the Utes (navajo NME!) So if there was Navajo Scouts, that would be new to me. I believe the scouts were either Pawnee or Arikara. Im not sure about that.
I'm going to go back and read. I am almost positive it was a navajo but just might have been an Apache. When I find it I will post it here.
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The reenactment is done according to notes from the Crow tribal historian, and it is generally acknowledged that Custer's scouts were Crow. I would have believed Ute as well, as they worked quite a bit as scouts for the military. I seriously doubt any Navajo would have been scouting for the military, maybe a few renegades perhaps, but it would be a stretch. Consider that in 1876 when Custer was killed at the Little Big Horn, less than 10 years had passed since the Navajo were allowed to return to their homes in the 4 corners area, and the attacks and hardships they endured during the fights rounding them up, the "long walk", and the fact that the campaign to round them up had been done with the assistance of the Utes who are traditional enemies of the Navajo........
I seriously doubt they were feeling at all generous towards the US cavalry. Regardless of what they paid, a Navajo would have to have been "acting like he had no family", as they say, to take a job working for the soldiers.
Here's a snip from the national park service website.
Ahead of the main column, Custer's 6 Crow and 39 Arikara Indian Scouts found the massive village. In the Valley of the Little Bighorn River, the Seventh Cavalry and their Indian allies attacked the village of 8,000 to 10,000 people, on June 25th,1876. After the battle was over, 263 7th Cavalrymen lay dead, including George Custer. 350 7th Cavalrymen survived.
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"Custer Died for your Sins"
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Well, Pride is one of the 7 deadly sins.
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
The reenactment is done according to notes from the Crow tribal historian, and it is generally acknowledged that Custer's scouts were Crow. I would have believed Ute as well, as they worked quite a bit as scouts for the military. I seriously doubt any Navajo would have been scouting for the military, maybe a few renegades perhaps, but it would be a stretch. Consider that in 1876 when Custer was killed at the Little Big Horn, less than 10 years had passed since the Navajo were allowed to return to their homes in the 4 corners area, and the attacks and hardships they endured during the fights rounding them up, the "long walk", and the fact that the campaign to round them up had been done with the assistance of the Utes who are traditional enemies of the Navajo........
I seriously doubt they were feeling at all generous towards the US cavalry. Regardless of what they paid, a Navajo would have to have been "acting like he had no family", as they say, to take a job working for the soldiers.
Yes, this sounds more like it. I know that in the book, the author detailed a navajo man but he may have just been a branch of the main story. for the info
Here's a snip from the national park service website.
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
The reenactment is done according to notes from the Crow tribal historian, and it is generally acknowledged that Custer's scouts were Crow. I would have believed Ute as well, as they worked quite a bit as scouts for the military. I seriously doubt any Navajo would have been scouting for the military, maybe a few renegades perhaps, but it would be a stretch. Consider that in 1876 when Custer was killed at the Little Big Horn, less than 10 years had passed since the Navajo were allowed to return to their homes in the 4 corners area, and the attacks and hardships they endured during the fights rounding them up, the "long walk", and the fact that the campaign to round them up had been done with the assistance of the Utes who are traditional enemies of the Navajo........
I seriously doubt they were feeling at all generous towards the US cavalry. Regardless of what they paid, a Navajo would have to have been "acting like he had no family", as they say, to take a job working for the soldiers.
Here's a snip from the national park service website.
Very good information. Yes around the time of the little big horn, most of the Navajo's were enslaved at the Bosque Redondo. I highly doubt Apaches would be involved because of their own war campaigns that continued into the early 1900s.
I use to live in WhiteShield, ND. There is an old Scout Cemetery out west near the small town. Now just to let you know, WhiteShield is kinda the homefront or HQ for the Arikaras or what is left of them. I believe my wife is a small part Arikara (mainly claims Hunkpapa Lakota), this would explain an inner conflict that she has. But enough about my wife, here is a link to the location and some information on it.
http://www.visitmcleancounty.com/tourism/scoutcemetary.html
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Have the two of you looked into verifying her connections? The Arikaras (which I believe were an offshoot of the Pawnee) had been around for a loooooong time by US standards when it came to dealing with the plains Indians. Even so, not alot is really known about their true history because they just aren't (or weren't) very open about that sort of thing. I believe one book I read on them said that for most of their existence, they had no one they could call ally or friend. They were traditional enemies of pretty much every plains Indian tribe in existence, as well as whites. Once settled on a reservation, they took up scouting just so they could get a chance to keep fighting their enemies.
Of course most of the cultural books on them are acknowledged nowadays to be wrong, but I think they got that part pretty clear. :)
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so you don't root for utah?
i wouldn't either the utes suck this year :aok
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
Have the two of you looked into verifying her connections? The Arikaras (which I believe were an offshoot of the Pawnee) had been around for a loooooong time by US standards when it came to dealing with the plains Indians. Even so, not alot is really known about their true history because they just aren't (or weren't) very open about that sort of thing. I believe one book I read on them said that for most of their existence, they had no one they could call ally or friend. They were traditional enemies of pretty much every plains Indian tribe in existence, as well as whites. Once settled on a reservation, they took up scouting just so they could get a chance to keep fighting their enemies.
Of course most of the cultural books on them are acknowledged nowadays to be wrong, but I think they got that part pretty clear. :)
Wow that would make alot of sense if they didnt have an ally. I believe today the have conflicts with the existing members (Hidatsa, Mandan) of their reservation. That would be an interesting read. Which book is it? Oh and yes i believe the Pawnee and Arikara were from the same group of people. I've never seen any Pawnee so i cant do a comparsion.
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Originally posted by megadud
so you don't root for utah?
i wouldn't either the utes suck this year :aok
Good question! Yeah I like a variety of different schools. UTAH, WASHINGTON, FLORIDA STATE, ARIZONA, OHIO STATE, GEORGIA, LSU so it all depends on who is playing them. When Arizona played them a few weeks ago i was for Arizona. But when UTAH played in the Fiesta Bowl, i was for them. Who you for?
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Originally posted by navajoboy
Wow that would make alot of sense if they didnt have an ally. I believe today the have conflicts with the existing members (Hidatsa, Mandan) of their reservation. That would be an interesting read. Which book is it? Oh and yes i believe the Pawnee and Arikara were from the same group of people. I've never seen any Pawnee so i cant do a comparsion.
The Arikara as I was told were a band of Pawnees that more or less came to the Mandans for protecton from the Sioux and stayed in North Dakota, Every year in White Shield there is the Arikara Celebration (pow wow) and usually a group of Pawnee's from Pawnee, Oklahoma come up for it. There still are some close ties there.
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oh and just a little more infomation. I found this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Knife
very interesting discussion we got going here.
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ohio state dood! duh! who doesn't love THE Ohio state University? only for football though, then it is UK basketball!
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Originally posted by navajoboy
oh and just a little more infomation. I found this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Knife
very interesting discussion we got going here.
Thanks for the link, I didn't know anything about bloody knife until I read that tidbit.
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One of the most comprehensive books I read on them was "THE NORTH AMERICAN INDIAN" by ES Curtis (volume 5 I think?). Of course there are several glaring errors that have been recognized over the years, but I believe the book is still used in cultural anthropology classes because of the sheer amount of information in the volumes he wrote.
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
One of the most comprehensive books I read on them was "THE NORTH AMERICAN INDIAN" by ES Curtis (volume 5 I think?). Of course there are several glaring errors that have been recognized over the years, but I believe the book is still used in cultural anthropology classes because of the sheer amount of information in the volumes he wrote.
Nice! do they have any information about Navajos or Choctaw (BBQBOB)?
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Navajo certainly, I think they were in the first volume. First one I read anyway. And he covered the Zuni and Hopi and Cheyenne and Apache and Yuma..............
Its been a long time since I read most of them, but there were somewhere near a hundred tribes represented I think. It was Ed Curtis' life work to collect the stories he did, and despite his errors its very comprehensive.
I dont remember Choctaw offhand. Or Seminoles for that matter, or even the Cherokee. What I knew about "Indians" back then I got off Lone Ranger reruns watching Tonto. Errors were not so apparent. Come to think of it, alot of the eastern tribes are not there (that I remember). Could be because most of them had either died out already or were "settled" and an accurate accounting couldnt be made. Not sure.
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
Navajo certainly, I think they were in the first volume. First one I read anyway. And he covered the Zuni and Hopi and Cheyenne and Apache and Yuma..............
Its been a long time since I read most of them, but there were somewhere near a hundred tribes represented I think. It was Ed Curtis' life work to collect the stories he did, and despite his errors its very comprehensive.
I dont remember Choctaw offhand. Or Seminoles for that matter, or even the Cherokee. What I knew about "Indians" back then I got off Lone Ranger reruns watching Tonto. Errors were not so apparent. Come to think of it, alot of the eastern tribes are not there (that I remember). Could be because most of them had either died out already or were "settled" and an accurate accounting couldnt be made. Not sure.
Here is a link to some info about the Choctaw and what took place in 1830, BTW I think you need to join our squad. :aok
link (http://www.peaknet.net/~aardvark/thetrail.html)
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Thanks for the link. I vaguely knew some stories about the Choctaw but never really read much about them. One of my ex's was part Cherokee and part Navajo, and had relatives on the reservation in Carolina. Thats where I used to spend my vacations. I cant belive how many people stop in Gatlinburg and never even know there's a reservation on the other side of the mountain.
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I've always enjoyed Stephen E Ambrose's book Crazy Horse and Custer: The Parallel Lives of Two American Warriors, and Dee Brown's Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee: An Indian History of the American West for a broader history...
Tronsky
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
Thanks for the link. I vaguely knew some stories about the Choctaw but never really read much about them. One of my ex's was part Cherokee and part Navajo, and had relatives on the reservation in Carolina. Thats where I used to spend my vacations. I cant belive how many people stop in Gatlinburg and never even know there's a reservation on the other side of the mountain.
Hmm is that federally recogonized or state? i didnt know there were reservations out that far. Part Choctaw/Navajo huh? Scary how you run into something like that.
Navajo
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the Cherokee res. here in NC is natoinal recognized i believe. If you look up "cherokee North carolina" theres several site (even there own) with lots of info.! They got a pretty good size res over there too.
I live in south western NC basically between Asheville NC and Spartenburg/Greenville SC , im on Lake Adger south of Lake Lure Chimney rock. A good friend i have met down here has 100's of arrow heads he finds just out walking thru the woods.............i been looking but i havent found any yet! Being this was/is and for ever shall be Cherokee Land (in my mind it is) they gotta be Cheorkee arrow heads!
just my half cent
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AFAIK, the Cherokee in Carolina have always been there. Some were relocated to Oklahoma, on the Trail of Tears, but some (like the Navajo that resisted relocation) remained behind, hiding in the hills and holding on to their land any way they could. Today they are known as the Eastern Band of Cherokee. As for someone having both Cherokee and Navajo relatives, you'd be surprised, if you havent studied them, how similar they really are. Family structure, clan structure, religion ............ they have alot in common.