Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Spatula on November 03, 2005, 04:43:28 PM
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Question:
If you were following a P-51D at d 1.1 - 1.2 at about 280-290MPH, would it be reasonable to expect him to be able to reverse (eg turn a complete 180 degrees) within that distance and be able to get his nose around enough to HO you?
Now i would expect a zeke or a spit or niki etc to be able to do that (or come very close to it), but not a P-51D. Ive flew the P-51D in AH1 from its inception for about 2 1/2 years and got reasonable proficient in it, and i aint never managed that myself, even with a notch or two flaps. Now i know the AH2 flight model has undergone some tweaks etc, so perhaps that explains it?
Thoughts??
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yes, i think it could get guns solution.
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the least of your worries is if the pony reverses and tries a weak HO on you. The P51D is on a par to the spit 5, certainly better than a spit9.
it has power, uber flaps, E dumping, E grabbing, beautifull guns and the best alround cockpit view of any aircraft in AH.
http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/P51_3vs1_0022.ahf <-- a pretty good example of the Pony's low speed handling from the Combat Theatre.
as a wise player once said 'those of you that are are plane dependant will always worry about what the other plane is, the rest of us worry about who is flying it.'
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Originally posted by mechanic
the least of your worries is if the pony reverses and tries a weak HO on you. The P51D is on a par to the spit 5, certainly better than a spit9.
it has power, uber flaps, E dumping, E grabbing, beautifull guns and the best alround cockpit view of any aircraft in AH.
http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/P51_3vs1_0022.ahf <-- a pretty good example of the Pony's low speed handling from the Combat Theatre.
as a wise player once said 'those of you that are are plane dependant will always worry about what the other plane is, the rest of us worry about who is flying it.'
Uber?? you gotta be kidding? not sure about the E-grabbing part. While it aint the worst at rebuilding E, it most certainly aint the best, let alone uber. try a 109 or an la7 for impressive e-grabbing :)
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Originally posted by Furball
yes, i think it could get guns solution.
i dont think ive ever managed that in AH1 - not even came close...
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Pony is definately uber.
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Originally posted by Spatula
i dont think ive ever managed that in AH1 - not even came close...
With all due respect....... that doesnt mean that it cant be done.
Dave
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It might be possible with a large cost in E. He's putting himself in a terrible position - easy to avoid, regain position, and dictate the fight.
Depends on your ride and relative E states, but the majority of aircraft will dominate in that position after the pony's maneuver. Why is the pony turning and not extending? Are you closing or separating?
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BBAW and I were doing some rediculous things when he bounced my 47N vs his F6F. Things that after watching the video I couldn't even believe I did - its always about the person behind the stick.
Most of us can beat 95 % of the guys out there anyday of the week - its just a matter if the bullets happen to fall in the right place or not.
Thats how it works sometimes.
Wolf
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Originally posted by Nomak
With all due respect....... that doesnt mean that it cant be done.
Dave
That is true... Im certainly not claiming to be experten, but i do have a pretty good understanding of its capabilities, at least in AH1.
And, it most definetely *was* done, so im just wondering if there had been some changes made to the FM or the 51s handling etc?
Think im gunna try it out myself with some help from some sqaudies :)
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I really dont want to get into the specifics of the particular engagement, as was well fought and fun, and i mean no disrespect to the pilot in question. Im just wondering more in general, as the reversal came as big suprise to me.
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Originally posted by Spatula
If you were following a P-51D at d 1.1 - 1.2 at about 280-290MPH, would it be reasonable to expect him to be able to reverse (eg turn a complete 180 degrees) within that distance and be able to get his nose around enough to HO you?
Ive flew the P-51D in AH1 from its inception for about 2 1/2 years and got reasonable proficient in it, and i aint never managed that myself, even with a notch or two flaps. Now i know the AH2 flight model has undergone some tweaks etc, so perhaps that explains it?
Yes, it'll come around easily for a short HO snapshot, even though it's a stupid choice by the pony pilot; he's gonna blow all his speed in the process and he'll only pull through if he's facing something with popguns.
I wasn't here in AH1, so I dunno what changed when the FM was tweaked. But dude, you have to realise that the pony has more than two notches of flaps...
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There's no good reason to bring it into a 180 degree turn. Yes it can be done. I actually hold my breaking turn until whatever is on my 6 comes within 1k.
1k is for me the perfect distance to break and set up for an over shot. Not coming around 180 reduces the risk of being ho'd by some tard and increases your chances the con over shooting and giving you a shot. There's also a good chance who ever is ining on you will break to try for a shot while you're rolling up and over, at that point they're burning E and allowing you more time for you shot which will come when he does over shoot.
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Cheers for the responses, guys. It seems the consensus is that its no suprise he did what he did. So, i guess i can take something from that.
Cheers!
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Originally posted by Octavius
Why is the pony turning and not extending? Are you closing or separating?
:confused: He might have been trying to have some fun, but I could be wrong.
Maybe he thought he was chased by the Church or a FH?
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Originally posted by mechanic
The P51D is on a par to the spit 5, certainly better than a spit9.
Elaborate please. Are you saing it can turn with a 5?
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"He might have been trying to have some fun, but I could be wrong.
Maybe he thought he was chased by the Church or a FH"
:lol
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The best I've seen in turning a pony in a hurry and still maintaining superior E has to be Erubus. and that would be in a P51B
He claims there are those better then he but I've yet to see them.
Still would love to know how we can do a head on pass and he turns around and still has enough E and speed to catch me.
Mostly so I can learn to be able to do it myself LOL
And no he's not starting his turn before the merge. I've looked for that unless ther is some glitch in the game that is showing me one thing while he is doing another.
I've seen him pass me and then looked in the rearview watching him turn around then badabing he's right on my 6 and gaining on me.
Damnedest thing I've ever seen. Well ok not quite but damn near.
Oddly enough While I do very poorly against him in a 109f I've had success against him while in a 110.
Go figure
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
And no he's not starting his turn before the merge. I've looked for that unless ther is some glitch in the game that is showing me one thing while he is doing another.
Heresy. Burn him!!!!
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If he comes into merge at 450mph and you at 300mph he can afford to burn up to 149mph and still be faster than you.
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Originally posted by dedalos
Elaborate please. Are you saing it can turn with a 5?
yes.
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No it cannot turn with a spitV. That's just silly.
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who said anything about actual *turning radius*
its not all about flat turning circles ya know.
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Would you like to come turn with my spit?
I know what the 51 can and cannot do. It was the ride for me long before you ever showed up in the game.
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fine. think limitations dude, thats what your life is full of anyhow. not like you run your life 100% is it.
personally, i prefer to think of beating whoever is flying, not the plane. and yes, the pony can 'outfly' a spit5 quite easily.
its ok if you suck in the ride of your choice, just have fun bro.
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See there you go again. Taking a conversation and making it a slug fest. Shame on you again.
The pony is one of the best E fighters in the game. It can also turn very well but like anything it is limited.
Unless a the 51 were to sit there and stick soley to his energy advantage making very shallow turns, and unless the spitv was a complete newb, the ponys time on earth is very limited.
When you start to burn E on the 51, and start to run out of alt to turn into E, you're in big trouble when you have a spit5 on you. 51's dont accelerate well at all when low and slow, they dont climb well either when they have no E to carry them.
Given equal pilots, co alt, on merge, the 51 can control the fight, but he's not going to win it by turn fighting.
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Originally posted by Morpheus
See there you go again. Taking a conversation and making it a slug fest. Shame on you again.
shame on me??
:rofl
if i hadnt given up with prooving your moronic mindset, i would spend an hour posting the times there is 'shame on you' in the same way.
its ok morph, you'll get good in that pony one day. when you learn to stop HO'ing and vulching.
you know the only reason you won in our spit fights once was because you(like most spit fights) HO'ed me every time right after the merge on the top of the immle. I just hate fights like that, so i wont fire, so you will win.
bet ya $10 i could thrash you in a c202 fight. one that lasts past the first HO.
you gunna bite?
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Its sad you have to troll or try to troll even here. A long time member of AH is asking about the capabilities of the new FM and all you can do is throw out falsifications in some poor twisted attempt to troll.
No I'm not going to bite, but im not going to let him walk away from here thinking he can go turn turn his pony with any spit5 he comes acorss either.
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hey, i'll pay $10 to see Morpheus get shot. :D :lol
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Spatula as far as your question yes it can be done. Is it wise? Maybe depending on what is behind you and what you know of their flying style. If it's a tnb aircraft with a pilot notorious for throwing HOs it's not really worth turning back. If there is even the slightest chance you can pull off a crossing shot within the first turn after the merge then it may be worth turning back. Either way if your basing whether or not your going to reverse back to take a slight chance on a HO then you might as well not fly the aircraft.
He can turn fight with any spit he'd like. Doesn't mean he's going to win the fight though. Your going to win some and your going to lose some against spits while flying either of the mustangs. There is no absolute guarantee that if you chose to tnb with any spit that you'll come out on top. Comparing a Spit to a Mustang in a turn fight is absurd anyway. Everyone knows who has the advantage in that arena. You might get one crossing shot after the merge. If you blow it your screwed.
Dredlock I'm still not gonna tell ya how I do it. ;)
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correct me if im wrong but i thought the discussion was about the 51D vs the spit V? didnt see anything about the 202. So if joo is calling the morph man out i would suggest sticking to the topic you in your 51 D and morph in his spit V. in otherwords put your cash where your mouth is.
personally my money is on morph :cool:
nothing personal about it so dont take it that way.
The reason is simple, ive watch many a film of morphs, ive flown with and against him over the years and tho im not on par with morh i am on par at least with you bat
In a trun fight the spit would pwn the 51 easy! even using the 51's advantages if fighting a spit driver of morph's exp im thinking the 51 is still dead. becouse ive used some of his maneuvers in this same scenario and tho i dont come out the winner 100% i ALWAYS land some hits. And ussually suprise the hell out of the 51 when he is B-n-Z ing me and do that classic barrel roll reverse when he is 1k out and can go right to guns once he overshoots.
Same with the 9 too, in the right hands 51-D is dead meat...That being said if facing a good 51 stick then u got yourself a good fight my freind
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heh, this thread is getting out of shape :) I never once mentioned what i was in. To set the record straight, i was in a P-51B, he in a P-51D. It was the best fight ive had since coming back to AH a few weeks back, so
[you know who you are]. Its not often you get to have a genuine 1vs1 on equal terms in the MA. He got a good HO shot in on the re-merge after his turn, was quite impressive on the film :) - pilot kill. And yup, as most of you point out, i prob should have extended out after his 180deg uber-hard-E-bleed turn, but i didnt, and i dont regret it. I was 'in the zone', a real knife-fight, in equal planes.
Im more than well aware of the relative strengths of a P-51 and what to do, and what NOT to do in em. I flew the P-51D with good results for nearly 3 years in AH1, keeping a very respectable kill/death average. But i just have never seen someone reverse SO quickly in such a short space in AH1 (and i have seen nearly ALL of the tricks). Its good to know that such a move is possible and i may even reserve the right to use it myself if it came down to it.
Now... morph versus mech. Lets get it on!
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I've seen P-51's and P-47's do a 180 very quickly. I think it's the flaps.
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Originally posted by WilldCrd
correct me if im wrong but i thought the discussion was about the 51D vs the spit V? didnt see anything about the 202. So if joo is calling the morph man out i would suggest sticking to the topic you in your 51 D and morph in his spit V. in otherwords put your cash where your mouth is.
personally my money is on morph :cool:
nothing personal about it so dont take it that way.
The reason is simple, ive watch many a film of morphs, ive flown with and against him over the years and tho im not on par with morh i am on par at least with you bat
In a trun fight the spit would pwn the 51 easy! even using the 51's advantages if fighting a spit driver of morph's exp im thinking the 51 is still dead. becouse ive used some of his maneuvers in this same scenario and tho i dont come out the winner 100% i ALWAYS land some hits. And ussually suprise the hell out of the 51 when he is B-n-Z ing me and do that classic barrel roll reverse when he is 1k out and can go right to guns once he overshoots.
Same with the 9 too, in the right hands 51-D is dead meat...That being said if facing a good 51 stick then u got yourself a good fight my freind
yup you are right, im 60% sure he would beat me in the pony vs spitv everytime. and it was wrong to troll him on in this thread i appologise.
i could really use the $10 though. nah, its childish, forget it morph. but we can duel for fun anytime.
if you would like to test your par also before making a statement like that then i would feel glad to duel you and morpheus.
I am in no way as good as i could get, i learn every flight, but i would be dishonest if i didnt admit that i feel proud to have developed my own style and refined the tech of it to a level i am happy with.
the reason a DA fight usually sucks is because you always get the same stupid merge.
and someone with something to proove always fires on that second ho.
and yes i think these days morph i would either ho you back or work around it alot of fights. I'm 10 times the virtual pilot i was last time we fought, but i expect you have also improoved in this time, so it could be interesting. but you dont seem to enjoy anything with genuine interest, its only comic interest for you i realise.
i have nothing to proove to you or myself though, so dont go on at me in your next 'reply/counter attack' please.
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Originally posted by mechanic
yes.
OMFG a pony tuning with a spitV!!! Mind teaching me how? :D :D :D :D
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all you have to do is think faster and fool your opponent for a few seconds and you can win or at least get a guns solution.
the most plausable way, and one i have used many times against MA spit5s is when you are lower and an easy target.
you let them bounce you and play dumb to about 600 yrds, or untill they startshooting with accuracy above 600 yrds. the reason its 600 not 1k is because at 600 yrds anyone who is bouncing a seemingly unsuspecting Pony in a spit5 will be 100 % commmited to turning with you for a shot and latching on your 6.......so....at about 600 yrds, break turn to the right and look backwards the whole time, as you start the turn reduce your power to minimum for a number of seconds and then increase it if he is sailing by your tail and switch to an opposite turn left wing down roll and add enough climb and rudder to avoid being shot. he will sail by, he is expecting you to be running and trying to keep as fast as possible, you use what ever angle he gives you to turn his speed against him. at the very center possition of this move you want to be looking directly up through your canopy at him 'a la TopGun'. at this point you decide if you have enough time to roll level again before shooting, or if you will be forced to pull the shot inverted, banked 90 degrees, or whatever situation you are in.. this very short film shows what i mean but the planes are different and it is a front angle attack with speed from higher altitude. The first turn is to the left and very swift you'll miss it if yu blink kind of thing, but without it it would be almost impposible to succede in getting guns on before the 109 gets out of reach again... this move is exactly the same for any plane match-up anyhow though and if you are not mergeing at this angle then you can turn when he is at 1.5k to line up for the angle it requires, and lose/retain speed as much as is required for the match up. zeke vs typh you wont need to lose much. P51 vs spitv you're gunna need to be dumping big time unless the spit is already going mach 0.7.
-------> http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/sweet_BnZ_reversal.ahf <-------
in this 40 seond clip we let a 109 come right at us without reacting and then at about 600 yrds break up to catch him off gaurd and hope your aim works. you only get one chance but you can increase that snapshot with good rudder peddals that i wish i had. :) I realise this is a very different plane match but it shows what i consider to be the very best angle to be attacked from, high 10 or 11 o'clock with just enough excess speed to want to go right back up again, but just enough oppertunity for shooting us given to commit his angle of BnZ to coincide with our planned move.
the reason i say turn to the right in the pony is because i find it is easier to do the follwing left wing down half loop/roll bit using the engines torque as a stabalizer as you pull the hard Gs.
Another way would be the obivous E fighting. merge CO-E the spit will almost certainly snap right back over at you, and you leisurely take your time to climb far higher than he ever could. but that is not turning with him i agree.
another and more difficult way would be to fake commencing a rolling scissors fight be mergin very low and almost a flat turn, and then at some point make a steep dive with the power off....the spit will think you intend to run and chase at you full power.
There is of course the classic overshoot.
-------> http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/109_downs_spit9.ahf <-------
this 30 second clip shows not a pony unfortunately, but still something less suited to the job than a pony, a 190G6 being attacked by a high alt spitfire mkIX. you would think the spit would win but with a keen attention to your speed and your enemies you can surprise what looks like a sure kill into a painfull lesson. This spit9 attack our 6 at 430 mph and we are gooing around 350. The pilot simply expects us to run, try a break turn and keep running with as much speed as possible. the last thing he expected at this time was a break turn dumping over 150mph and using the vertical to force him outfront. admitedly the shot was 1 in 100 to make, but we we're on his six and not too much slower anyhow. he would have had one rope left in the bag before getting down and dirty, at which point he would have the upper hand again.
and finally, the main way to win anyfight is to be one step ahead of your enemy, i know when i get shot down alot that i am being out thunk not out performanced.
-------> http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/LA7_downs_zeke.ahf <-------
last 30 second clip, an la7 killing a zeke in a rolling scissors style turn fight. i edited the 5 mins of fight where the la7 worked from 1k below the zeke to 1k above, but where we start is a normal attacking run on a slower plane.
it might look like the enemy is just unskilled (this is simply not true with yonoi), but check out the speedometer the whole time we are attacking we are also losing speed. the zeke will often try very similar evasives to a spitfire so i think this is relative. He was expecting a fast attack and zoom climb, but we commited the la7 with abloutely no power beind those turns aside from small surges to help roll over. through out thinking the A6m we and made ourselves a few chances before losing or running.
its all in the mind and reflex. speed of descsion making.
its not easy but i think the pony could outfly the spit with equal pilots certainly. the spit is uber but a pilot is still a pilot.
offer one easy shot, look like a noob, then attack when they least expect it.
make the possitions you most feel vulnerable from and make them the time to launch your attack from. if you hate being BnZ, learn a trick and perfect it.
If you hate being outturned, learn the overshoot and stall fighting.
etc, etc.
it is not all about turning circles and stereotypes.
ManeTMP showed me the way when he slaughtered my spit5 in a P47d40 back almost 18 months ago now.
all he did was made himself look juicy, then attacked when i was certain of victory.
edit: frantically looking through 1000s of films for a good P51 demo killing a spit5, i know i have seen it doene one on one with two good sticks before.
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well, you did ask for my explanation. there it is.
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I ran into fester about a month ago (haven't been up since). He was in a D pony and I was in a -1 hog. He was harassing a field I'd upped out of and we ended up playing tag for about 4 or 5 different remerges. I'd chase him and he'd extend and reverse....he was conservative the 1st couple...but 3 thru 5 he reversed very close to me (in that 1.2-1.4 range) and got real down and dirty. How fast he reversed amazed me...we endup up locked in tumbling stall fights at 15k or so with me unable to gain a solution and he cleaned up and extended when he found himself deadlocked as well. He finally got me on a pretty mini rope...no lcue how he can judge that stuff so well....swear I was inside 600 with him sitting on the top of my gun sight for 30 sec or more but no joy:(........
Anyway, in the right hands a pony will do amazing things....so yes at that speed its pretty easy for a pony to reverse...but I dont know why a pilot that good would sacrifice angles to HO or give you the front quarter ahot vs to what fester did which is go angles in a high to low to high to start a vertical rolling scissors type of fight which the pony will excel in.....
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Grmrpr will knife fight & do pretty well in a pony. Had several fights with him last tour & he did some pretty amazing moves in that thing. I have no idea how he does it. I am total cannon fodder in a pony. lol
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Originally posted by Spatula
Question:
If you were following a P-51D at d 1.1 - 1.2 at about 280-290MPH, would it be reasonable to expect him to be able to reverse (eg turn a complete 180 degrees) within that distance and be able to get his nose around enough to HO you?
Thoughts??
I've seen Wldthing do this without even batting an eye. I think I even have a film of it somewhere. I have done it myself with varying degrees of success. Like Morpheus I'd much rather lure him in a little closer and force the overshoot rather than completely rev for a HO.
Zazen
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The pony can turn with just about any plane for the first couple loops, including the spit 5, specialy with the new spit 5 fm. Its not playing to its strengths tho and is simply foolish, and arguing about it is even more foolish. "dont bring a knife to a gun fight"
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Yup the AH2 pony can Sweat E faster, gain E faster, turn faster ,Ho fast and just do everything better, longer, harde,r and more efficient than the AH1 ,Earthly bound Pony D.
So It's like the Movie "Team America: World Police",but in a Plane :D
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I taught GrmRpr everything he knows. :)
-- Todd/Leviathn
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:)
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Originally posted by Spatula
heh, this thread is getting out of shape :) I never once mentioned what i was in. To set the record straight, i was in a P-51B, he in a P-51D. It was the best fight ive had since coming back to AH a few weeks back, so [you know who you are]. Its not often you get to have a genuine 1vs1 on equal terms in the MA. He got a good HO shot in on the re-merge after his turn, was quite impressive on the film :) - pilot kill. And yup, as most of you point out, i prob should have extended out after his 180deg uber-hard-E-bleed turn, but i didnt, and i dont regret it. I was 'in the zone', a real knife-fight, in equal planes.
Im more than well aware of the relative strengths of a P-51 and what to do, and what NOT to do in em. I flew the P-51D with good results for nearly 3 years in AH1, keeping a very respectable kill/death average. But i just have never seen someone reverse SO quickly in such a short space in AH1 (and i have seen nearly ALL of the tricks). Its good to know that such a move is possible and i may even reserve the right to use it myself if it came down to it.
Now... morph versus mech. Lets get it on!
Spatula! Old hand! Howdy! :)
You have to get used to this special e-bleeding FM. Forget AH1.
And be aware even when you try to counter a classic scissor manoeuver. Enemy now can pull up, chase and get you even after a couple of break turns ;)
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Heya Gatt, old buddy/foe ;) I saw you online a month or two ago, but i couldnt seem to get chan 1 to work (now i know it basically doesnt anymore) to chat to ya.
Your right, gotta forget the AH1 FM, and get up to speed with the AH2 FM. I am getting a lot more used to it now, and getting used to the gunnery etc. Been a harsh re-learning curve, but im getting there :D
see ya up, bud
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Of course the situation described is possible, even plausible. What fools you is, some of the newest sticks in the game will fly P-51's as jabo rides trying to learn to fly fighters, and some of the most experienced sticks in the game will fly them just to surprise you. Plus there are guys who have been almost exclusively flying the Pony for years. Some of the best fights I've been in have been Pony vs Pony. This AH2 FM allows it to do some incredible reversals, and getting into a rolling scissors in such a fight is a measure of "how low can you go" in alt, speed, flaps, etc. There are definitely planes more forgiving than the Pony, but few better all around performers.
it is not all about turning circles and stereotypes.
ManeTMP showed me the way when he slaughtered my spit5 in a P47d40 back almost 18 months ago now.
all he did was made himself look juicy, then attacked when i was certain of victory.
You fight him often, you will learn thats almost a signature move for him. ManeTMP is like a master fisherman, and he knows his bait. He also knows how to hook you and reel you in. He may not be the best stick in the game, but he's damn good. That and he flies a P-47 like most people fly a Spit.
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Since this is a game I guess it is only a matter of knowing "how and when" gaming, aehm, the game ...
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He finally got me on a pretty mini rope...no lcue how he can judge that stuff so well....swear I was inside 600 with him sitting on the top of my gun sight for 30 sec or more but no joy
hint hint....
beat the verticle rope thru lag pursuit....
as long as its not a complete e mismatch you can go lag pursuit follow him up thru his rope and stalemate him ... granted he'll have more E but you got turn radii advantage (vertical) on him..
DoctorYo