Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: GRUNHERZ on November 03, 2005, 10:20:42 PM
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http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/11/03/france.riots/index.html
A few years ago I saw some prgrams and reas some articles about the huge numbers of bored, jobless and isolated young musim immigramt popolatuions ligving in the suburbbs of French cities and the potential threat this condition posed. Is this the start of that potental becoming relity?
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http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=163508&pagenumber=1
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LOL oops. :)
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For those euro pansie states that dont have an armed populace, they might one day wish they did :confused:
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I think all of you so called 'French experts' should move over there, I'm sure some pple would be interested in your opinions.
GRUN, you do have other activities, right? ;)
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Sure. But watching out for France is one of my favorite past times.... :rofl
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Saw, same **** different country.
Status quo is a sacred thing.
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Originally posted by moot
Saw, same **** different country.
Status quo is a sacred thing.
What other euro country has its muslims burning down and blowing stuff up?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
What other euro country has its muslims burning down and blowing stuff up?
Spain the UK and im sure theres more.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
What other euro country has its muslims burning down and blowing stuff up?
Muslim ?
Were did you get that ?
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Straffo so the french riots arent accuring in heavily north african muslim areas of your cities? Its not concentrated in the muslim areas? The ritiong is done by catholic nuns, you say?
But go ahead, continue to soothe yourself in to a false sense of comfort about the growing problem with your neighbors, we sure know few people do it better the french...
:aok
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Straffo so the french riots arent accuring in heavily north african muslim areas of your cities? Its not concentrated in the muslim areas? The ritiong is done by catholic nuns, you say?
As far as I know it's pretty balanced between "muslim" area and not muslim area , the only common know facts between area is the low income the lack of jobs and overpopulation.
But go ahead, continue to soothe yourself in to a false sense of comfort about the growing problem with your neighbors, we sure know few people do it better the french...
:aok
[/B]
uh ?
should be dumb this morning I don't inderstand this sentence.
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Most reports here say very much north african and muslim immigrants.
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Certainly lot of those area are populated by those.
But in those area there is from 15 to 30% jobless also.
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What's your point GH?
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I think he wants us to kill all the muslims, something they tried in an easternly ex country a while ago I think...
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moot he may found a real reason to call muslim a real danger for the west *yawn*
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ok lets put the Muslim thing to the side for now, and just say it's the poor people roiting....
Why would the *poor* roit in a *socialist* paradise?
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Originally posted by soda72
ok lets put the Muslim thing to the side for now, and just say it's the poor people roiting....
Why would the *poor* roit in a *socialist* paradise?
You can find a thread on this bbs that I posted a few years ago about France having a very high muslim immigrant population and how that will affect her down the road (not rocket scientist stuff, mind you, but there was certainly alot of denial out there from our Euro counterparts), I think we're seeing the evidence of that now.
The violence also has cast doubt on the success of France's model of seeking to integrate its immigrant community — its Muslim population, at an estimated 5 million, is Western Europe's largest — by playing down differences between ethnic groups. Rather than feeling embraced as full and equal citizens, immigrants and their French-born children often complain of police harassment and of being refused jobs, housing and opportunities.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051103/ap_on_re_eu/france_rioting_24
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Kinda makes me feel better about our harmless Mexicans:D
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Originally posted by Saintaw
I think he wants us to kill all the muslims, something they tried in an easternly ex country a while ago I think...
Well, I think his point is that US have to interfere again, and bomb France to "stone age" like they did to poor Serbs.
The main difference IMHO is that Serbs simply wanted to secure themselves from Moslim gangs a-la Chechnya, while in France rioters want to keep leeching more welfare from the local people.
Grun, do you still think that some Moslims should be "more equal"? I mean - do you still think that proud Chechen freedom-fighters need to be liberated from "evil barbarians who came from the East" (your real words BTW).
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I love the brave europeans and their total nonchalnce to the millions of culturally isolated, poor, angrry, radicilized, young and totally bored muslims living all around their countries. Even after madrid, after the london bombings, the brutal slayings and near beheadings of their citizens on streets of major european citizes in broad daylight and now the mass riots in paris all we hear from our dear euro friends about this is "yawn."
:huh
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Grun, so - how about proud Chechen freedom-fighters?
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I wish you all the luck in dealing with them Boroda, maybe one day the russian people and chechen people will be able to reconcile after what the russian army did in chechnya and the way it fought that war.
Grozny, capital city of chechnya, in 2000 after 4 months of "precision" anti terrorist operations by gklorious and professinal russian army...
(http://www.freechechnya.org/images/grozny_square_after.jpg)
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Ok, we managed to get rid of the threat, so far there are no other means to do it, at least you still keep other secret techniques of taking fortified cities away from us, silly barbarians.
I understand your post as an advise to France. Am I wrong?
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Christ isn't there a limit on how big these pics can be?
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You misunderstand boroda, I posted that picture so you can see that there are still a few buildings standing in grozny. I'm sure you will win the chechen war by blowing up the last few standing buildings. Really.
As for advising the french? By the way its going it wont be long before paris looks like this too. ;)
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Originally posted by bj229r
Christ isn't there a limit on how big these pics can be?
Mindless mongoloid bolshevik horde barabraity on this scale needs and equally large picture to show it. :)
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Grunherz
isolated, poor, angrry, radicilized, young and totally bored muslims
Delete the word 'muslims' isolated, poor, angrry, radicilized, young and totally bored
There's the reason for the problems. Not their religion. They are not rioting because they're muslim. They are rioting because they are isolated, poor, angry, radicalised, young and totally bored
This is not a new front in the 'war on terror'. It's more like the famous LA riots of a few years ago. A reaction against perceived oppression by the authorities and basically hooligans taking advantage of a break down in law and order.
Only when France gets it's act together economically and actually does something to reduce unemployment by leaving behind failed economic policies will things change in the poorer areas of Paris. 25% unemployment among any group will always cause problems. Add in racism, sectarianism and discrimination and you have a powder keg.
One other thing to point out is that France has a long tradition of rioting as a means of social change. The CRS get a lot of use out of their helmets and riot shields.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Mindless mongoloid bolshevik horde barabraity on this scale needs and equally large picture to show it. :)
Beautifull.
Now I am a mongoloid. I always thought that I'm only an asian barbarian on a shaggy mount, but mongoloid?... :rolleyes:
JFYI, in Civil War Chechens supported bolsheviks against White Army, and White Army pacified them much more brutally then now.
Ok, back tho the topic. I almost agree with you. Unfortunately, France and other European "civilized" countries will have to abandon their "humanitarian values" to survive :( I wonder if they'll keep whining about "human rights" for terrorists in Russia after they'll have to execute several thousand "rioters"... Or they'll keep teaching us tolerance and the art of war at the same time, as they do now?
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spot on cpxxx IMO
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Originally posted by Boroda
Beautifull.
Now I am a mongoloid. I always thought that I'm only an asian barbarian on a shaggy mount, but mongoloid?... :rolleyes:
:rofl
I'm glad that you take it in a funny way. That's how I mean it.
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Originally posted by cpxxx
Grunherz
Delete the word 'muslims'
There's the reason for the problems. Not their religion. They are not rioting because they're muslim. They are rioting because they are
This is not a new front in the 'war on terror'. It's more like the famous LA riots of a few years ago. A reaction against perceived oppression by the authorities and basically hooligans taking advantage of a break down in law and order.
Only when France gets it's act together economically and actually does something to reduce unemployment by leaving behind failed economic policies will things change in the poorer areas of Paris. 25% unemployment among any group will always cause problems. Add in racism, sectarianism and discrimination and you have a powder keg.
One other thing to point out is that France has a long tradition of rioting as a means of social change. The CRS get a lot of use out of their helmets and riot shields.
I agree, France and the French people are clearly to blame for this.
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Originally posted by Saintaw
I think he wants us to kill all the muslims, something they tried in an easternly ex country a while ago I think...
:rofl
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
:rofl
I'm glad that you take it in a funny way. That's how I mean it.
Grun, I always knew that you are one of the few people here who understand when I am sarcastic and don't think that I'm joking when I am serious.
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GH have you ever seen faceoffs between french and immigrants with your own eyes?
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Nope. Are they common? Do they often lead to riots that burn down buildings torch thousands of cars etc?
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They're chicken ****s and don't want to get caged. Now that it's open season on public property, they aren't holding back. This is the stuff they wish they had an excuse for every other day.
In normal times the french let rabble walk all over them, then feel guilty for it, but don't straightening up and stand their ground in person.
They get real bitter over it but don't dare act on it, it's a pretty cowardly sight.
Watch the movie Takeda linked.
I'd take the subway, and this guy selling roasted nuts on a cheapo table to one end of the station, looks the other way for a second, and a delinquant grabs a few packs.
The merchant looks back and you can see he's not about to do anything, he'd get smacked instantly. So the young guy sees this, and grabs more while looking straight into the merchant's eyes.
The merchant whines disapproval like a beaten dog with his tail between legs but frothing mouth, but doesn't dare seem righteous.
No one says anything, because thats the status quo.
People are conditionned to this.
I could tell pages and pages of this stuff in the smallest details, all the way back from kindergarten.
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Originally posted by moot
They're chicken ****s and don't want to get caged. Now that it's open season on public property, they aren't holding back. This is the stuff they wish they had an excuse for every other day.
In normal times the french let rabble walk all over them, then feel guilty for it, but don't straightening up and stand their ground in person.
They get real bitter over it but don't dare act on it, it's a pretty cowardly sight.
Watch the movie Takeda linked.
I'd take the subway, and this guy selling roasted nuts on a cheapo table to one end of the station, looks the other way for a second, and a delinquant grabs a few packs.
The merchant looks back and you can see he's not about to do anything, he'd get smacked instantly. So the young guy sees this, and grabs more while looking straight into the merchant's eyes.
The merchant whines disapproval like a beaten dog with his tail between legs but frothing mouth, but doesn't dare seem righteous.
No one says anything, because thats the status quo.
People are conditionned to this.
If I posted this it would be called french bashing. If you post it, I'm not sure what they would say.
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It's great.
I'm nothing and everything at once.
I can say what I want, do what I want, be and go where I want to, and at the same time draw from any of the dozen inherited cultures or deny some or all by pointing out their shortcomings, then mix-and-match synthesize whatever I want without the excess baggage of belonging to any of em.
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Going off on a tangent, but I remember my dad walked with us back from school in Saint-Denis. We had to go thru a pretty damn dangerous set of high-rise HLMs, or take a detour and face an equal sum of smaller dangers. I was maybe 14, my brothers were 8 and 10.
This group of three or four deliquants were ****in around trying to scare us, maybe really mug us if we appeared vulnerable enough.
At one point we're waiting at a crosswalk, and they start putting on the pressure by talking smack as though we weren't right next to them.
We walked away ignoring them, I couldn't do much as they were three late teens, probably armed, and my dad's got polio scarring pretty bad on one ankle :D.
Anyway, we manage to distance them by ignoring them, but as we do they stop and throw beer cans without really aiming for us.
My dad got so pissed off at putting up with their bull****, he ripped out this beam of metal from not-so-loose construction concrete, right from the ****in sidewalk, waved it at them.
He's no Schwarzie, but he was so ****in pissed (surely woulda whacked em without hesitation had they come to get some) they just turned around and pissed off.
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I though socialism, diversity, and political correctness was supposed to fix all this?
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This only shows that the strict immigration laws posed in Finland were the right way to go.
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We'd sit in class, and across the street there was an HLM with the lowest balconies reachable if you climbed a little.
Some friends were eyeing a pair of expensive Nike's left in sight. There was some other stuff, but nothing you could swipe from below with so little foothold.
So they went and got it, and I agreed, it was so easy to take it, so valuable with no defense whatsoever.
But I thought, I do this, then what? The neighbourhood stank of ghetto and I couldn't stand to take part in it.
Almost everyone in the class felt the same, tempted but not willing to decide whether it was defendable. Everyone (french, algerian, belgian, spanish, portuguese, you name it there was one in the class) was for himself and somehow, instead of agreeing the best thing was to mutualy consent to staying civil and out of each other's way, in a common sense free market type of environment, no one took responsibility, and just let things slide. It paid more to do someone in than to work honestly for honest rewards.
The deliquants never asked twice.. no guilt when the offended is willing.
Later that year, that same "friend" picked the lock to the back of our house and stole all the compact hitech stuff in my room.
My dad got pissed, walked right to his house (keep in mind the kid's bigger brother has basically a whole high-rise to back him up) and talked to him and his parents.
The hypocrite came to me next day, praising how much balls my dad had, as tho we were friends again, newfound esteem.
That's all it'd take, guts and a sense of non-violent warfare anytime you were outnumbered.
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Originally posted by moot
So they went and got it, and I agreed, it was so easy to take it, so valuable with no defense whatsoever.
Later that year, that same "friend" picked the lock to the back of our house and stole all the compact hitech stuff in my room.
So, you thought since somebody left shoes that with just a small amount of effort could be stolen it was okay to steal them?
That shows an appalling lack of self-respect, a lack of respect for others, a complete failing in your upbringing and the society you inhabit. Those shoes were someones property, something they paid for, something they put the effort into going out and buying, and were shoes they probably needed.
I am glad to hear you had something then stolen from you, even if you weren't the one who stole the shoes because hopefully you learned the violation of a person that occurs when you steal from them. You understand what it is to have something you worked for, saved for and valued stolen by someone with no right to your property.
Maybe if you learned those lessons you became a better person. If it just gave you a justification to steal someone elses property, your a lost hope.
dago
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Originally posted by soda72
Why would the *poor* roit in a *socialist* paradise?
Socialist paradise isnt France but Czech.
At least OECD consider czech to be and "socialist miracle"
How did you concluded, that France is soc. paradise ?
I agree that they are quite socialistic but i did never hear about french paradise.
Or is it just some hidden trolling from you, because you have nothing constructive to post about this even ?
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
I though socialism, diversity, and political correctness was supposed to fix all this?
hmmm you have quite interesting education in US.
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Don't you get it? It was a zoo, no rules, no morality but the one each person held, and those each person expected others to hold. No one did anything at a large scale because.... well I didn't know, and won't ever know for sure, and it not being done when it should've made me completely disinterested and unexpectant of politics for a long while.
No one was going to do anything, because they get smacked individually.
There was no cash to pay teachers to do more than their jobs (teaching their respective discipline), none to watch racketeers etc during recess, no time to stay at home and guard your stuff.
I was tempted because my shoes had holes in em, because doing it would show some balls amidst the reigning fear and bleak prospects of life. I held back because it was wrong, even when everyone was doing it, when it would've improved my situation, it was giving in to something wrong and losing my right to be righteous in defending against that wrong.
Everyone who gave in lost that self respect and respect of others, and set the precedent I renounced when I stayed put instead of joining in to the crimes small and large.
You couldn't brake the status quo without getting beat up, and I knew I wasn't going to stay forever in that place, so I stayed put and did nothing knowing one day I'd have the opportunity to oppose that sorta BS.
I'm gone from that place now, and I'm not returning. People get what they deserve, and in my opinion, the people concerned by these riots have had it coming for a long time.
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And anyway, no offense to the French, but everytime I stay in the country, it seems to me there's no way (without being omniscient and omnipotent or nearly so) to please more than a large minority.
It's always like a henhouse, everyone disagrees and there's no real basic values to keep everything together during debates.
When there are debates instead of strikes etc.
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Originally posted by moot
We'd sit in class, and across the street there was an HLM with the lowest balconies reachable if you climbed a little.
Some friends were eyeing a pair of expensive Nike's left in sight. There was some other stuff, but nothing you could swipe from below with so little foothold.
So they went and got it, and I agreed, it was so easy to take it, so valuable with no defense whatsoever.
But I thought, I do this, then what? The neighbourhood stank of ghetto and I couldn't stand to take part in it.
Almost everyone in the class felt the same, tempted but not willing to decide whether it was defendable. Everyone (french, algerian, belgian, spanish, portuguese, you name it there was one in the class) was for himself and somehow, instead of agreeing the best thing was to mutualy consent to staying civil and out of each other's way, in a common sense free market type of environment, no one took responsibility, and just let things slide. It paid more to do someone in than to work honestly for honest rewards.
The deliquants never asked twice.. no guilt when the offended is willing.
Later that year, that same "friend" picked the lock to the back of our house and stole all the compact hitech stuff in my room.
My dad got pissed, walked right to his house (keep in mind the kid's bigger brother has basically a whole high-rise to back him up) and talked to him and his parents.
The hypocrite came to me next day, praising how much balls my dad had, as tho we were friends again, newfound esteem.
That's all it'd take, guts and a sense of non-violent warfare anytime you were outnumbered.
Man Moot, it looks like you could have written this article. It is amazingly similar to your post.
link (http://www.city-journal.org/html/12_4_the_barbarians.html)
I first saw l’insécurité for myself about eight months ago. It was just off the Boulevard Saint-Germain, in a neighborhood where a tolerably spacious apartment would cost $1 million. Three youths—Rumanians—were attempting quite openly to break into a parking meter with large screwdrivers to steal the coins. It was four o’clock in the afternoon; the sidewalks were crowded, and the nearby cafés were full. The youths behaved as if they were simply pursuing a normal and legitimate activity, with nothing to fear.
Eventually, two women in their sixties told them to stop. The youths, laughing until then, turned murderously angry, insulted the women, and brandished their screwdrivers. The women retreated, and the youths resumed their “work.”
A man of about 70 then told them to stop. They berated him still more threateningly, one of them holding a screwdriver as if to stab him in the stomach. I moved forward to help the man, but the youths, still shouting abuse and genuinely outraged at being interrupted in the pursuit of their livelihood, decided to run off. But it all could have ended very differently.
Several things struck me about the incident: the youths’ sense of invulnerability in broad daylight; the indifference to their behavior of large numbers of people who would never dream of behaving in the same way; that only the elderly tried to do anything about the situation, though physically least suited to do so. Could it be that only they had a view of right and wrong clear enough to wish to intervene? That everyone younger than they thought something like: “Refugees . . . hard life . . . very poor . . . too young to know right from wrong and anyway never taught . . . no choice for them . . . punishment cruel and useless”? The real criminals, indeed, were the drivers whose coins filled the parking meters: were they not polluting the world with their cars?
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Originally posted by lada
hmmm you have quite interesting education in US.
so you are saying.......what exactly? :huh
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Yeah Krusher, it hasn't changed..
I could've become like them, fortunately at the time I'd just come back from a few years in Toronto.
And even before that, I'd learned since kindergarten that the only foolproof plan was to always do my best. No one can touch you if you're unreproachable.. I came out of kindergarten ahead of most kids (knew how to read and write, I knew how roots worked, only division I hadn't figured out completely).. so I came into first grade with my reputation preceding me :D and got some pretty stiff racism from at least one teacher... this kid once cut my palm open with scissors when I reached for the papers he'd been given to distribute to the class, and the teacher never paid attention till it bled on my paper.
The way out was up, and I just kept going up, skipped two years by the time I left for the US. As crap as some of what I went thru was, one thing I always found more than rewarding enough was a good teacher appreciating my quality work.
My point is, those marginalized welfare bums/deliquants/whatever could have done it differently, all it takes is the right attitude.
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Why are so many people in France without jobs? Makes the French version of socialism look a little "non competative".....
Still EADS gets hundreds and hundreds of millions of euros in guarateed subsidies to unfairly undercut Boeings commercial airplanes sales.
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Your problem, Yeager, is that you confuse communism and socialism. A government can have socialist tendency and still make quite right wing decisions. Having social security and free healthcare do not mean everyone would be happy and even less so employed.
In fact, socialism guarantees a steady level of unemployment because it sets standards on work pricing. You can't get underpaid jobs - meaning that the people who work to the bone in US to survive are on dole here.
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When the government gives the impression that it can be more profitable for an individual NOT to work, things in said country not gonna improve much
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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2095-1562226,00.html
The Sunday Times - Business
The Sunday Times April 10, 2005
US threat over Airbus subsidies
Dominic Rushe, New York
UNITED STATES trade officials have threatened to resume their legal assault on Airbus subsidies if Europe grants any more aid to the aircraft maker.
The warning came late on Friday after talks on resolving the bitter trade dispute broke down ahead of tomorrow’s deadline for their resolution. America said that if European governments approved more launch aid, it would resume litigation at the World Trade Organisation — a clear warning over the €4 billion (£2.7 billion) in aid sought by Airbus to launch a mid-sized plane, the A350, which would compete with Boeing’s latest product, the 787.
The American ultimatum caps months of steadily worsening relations between the two trading blocs, with acrimonious exchanges between European trade commissioner Peter Mandelson and his opposite number Bob Zoellick.
Last month, both Mandelson and Zoellick claimed that the other slammed the phone down during a “heated” exchange and their personal relations are this weekend said to be severely strained.
Zoellick has accused Mandelson of “spin”, and the former Labour minister has claimed his American counterpart is an agent of Boeing.
The US is claiming that Airbus is unfairly supported by “launch aid” from European governments, which funds a large part of Airbus’s research- and-development costs. The Americans claim that Airbus has received $18 billion-plus (£9.5 billion) worth of aid. Airbus is 20% controlled by BAE Systems, with the rest owned by European Aeronautic Defence and Space. America is most concerned about launch aid for Airbus’s new super-jumbo aircraft, the A380.
The two sides had set a deadline for Monday to reach agreement on how to proceed with the dispute. Failing a resolution, America has said it will refer its complaints to the World Trade Organisation (WTO). The EU had agreed to end future loans but now wants them phased out. It also wants concessions from Boeing, Airbus’s main rival, which it claims is also unfairly propped up by tax breaks and government contracts.
In January the parties agreed to hold bilateral talks to resolve the dispute. The terms of the talks meant neither side could start legal action with the WTO and stopped European governments from providing further upfront funding for Airbus.
In February the EU proposed a phased approach to cutting subsidies and asked that the US also make concessions. Zoellick was said to be particularly incensed by Mandelson’s proposal that discussions should include subsidies for foreign suppliers, particularly aid from the Japanese government to its indigenous Boeing suppliers.
“They agreed to the framework and to end subsidies. There’s no way around that,” said a US official. “Maybe they have now realised their member states were not hip to that but that’s not our problem. If they don’t have the authority to end launch subsidies, just say so.”
The two sides have also fallen out over the timing of an end to aid, and which aircraft should be the last to receive it.
Sources close to Mandelson said he still hoped to reach a peaceful resolution. He said it was “not very logical” for either side to go to the WTO
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The types of subsidies Boeing gets from developing technology for military purposes and then transfering that knowledge to commercial use, AND the benifits of tax breaks provided as incentive to do business in any state or country, is equal for Boeing as it is for Airbus and are not negotiated or under contest in the WTO (as much as EADS wans it to be an issue, it isnt). What Boeing is bringing to WTO and what we are talking about here is guaranteed secure loans from governments. Boeing recieves ZERO guaranteed loans from any government. Airbus is gaining unfair advantage from the governments of Spain, UK, Germany and France.
Socialism and Communism are equal in this sense, they are competitors with capitalism.
The big problem with socialism in Europe is that the guaranteed right to welfare is very attractive to the poor people of asia, africa and the middle east and once these poor people get to places like France, UK and Germany, they are treated as an inferior race by the aboriginal europeans (maybe not so much in the UK). Right now France is feeling the heat because the muslims there are angry at the 2nd class treatment the French are giving them. Holding them down, treating them like dirt. Soon the muslim brothers will bring their wrath to other european countries.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Well, I think his point is that US have to interfere again, and bomb France to "stone age" like they did to poor Serbs.
The main difference IMHO is that Serbs simply wanted to secure themselves from Moslim gangs a-la Chechnya, while in France rioters want to keep leeching more welfare from the local people.
Grun, do you still think that some Moslims should be "more equal"? I mean - do you still think that proud Chechen freedom-fighters need to be liberated from "evil barbarians who came from the East" (your real words BTW).
Ya, can Bill Clinton run again in 2008. He did a great job with Serbia. ;)
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The loans granted by the governments of spain, germany, france and the uk to EADS are guaranteed risk free loans. This means that if airbus fails to make a profit they DO NOT HAVE TO PAY BACK THE LOANS. there is no equivalent guarantee for Boeing.
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"America has said it will refer its complaints to the World Trade Organisation"
so the wto has teeth now...charming :rofl
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Let speak also about Iron ,Wood and USA.
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Originally posted by bj229r
Kinda makes me feel better about our harmless Mexicans:D
Exactly. Best Immigrants EVAR
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The big problem with socialism in Europe is that the guaranteed right to welfare is very attractive to the poor people of asia, africa and the middle east and once these poor people get to places like France, UK and Germany, they are treated as an inferior race by the aboriginal europeans (maybe not so much in the UK). Right now France is feeling the heat because the muslims there are angry at the 2nd class treatment the French are giving them. Holding them down, treating them like dirt. Soon the muslim brothers will bring their wrath to other european countries.
What they should do is to banish each immigrant that commits a serious crime such as violent rioting or theft. If an immigrant can't live on the rules of the society he/she has no place to be there in the first place.
Finland has been very strict on who we let to stay here for the above mentioned reason among others and now it seems we were right all along. Trust me, the government has taken a lot of international heat for the immigration policy (demanding larger quotas etc.) but this proves that our line is the right one. Our government aims to help people at their place of origin instead of getting them up here.
There are good immigrants (which I know many, my wife is one of them) and bad immigrants.
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Originally posted by Yeager
The big problem with socialism in Europe is that the guaranteed right to welfare is very attractive to the poor people of asia, africa and the middle east and once these poor people get to places like France, UK and Germany, they are treated as an inferior race by the aboriginal europeans (maybe not so much in the UK). Right now France is feeling the heat because the muslims there are angry at the 2nd class treatment the French are giving them. Holding them down, treating them like dirt. Soon the muslim brothers will bring their wrath to other european countries.
And you're completly wrong.
The people rioting are young people born in France and are French.
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Originally posted by straffo
And you're completly wrong.
The people rioting are young people born in France and are French.
This is true and it's exactly the cause of the problem. THe socialist french economic system makes it too easy for these young people to exist without working and entirely too difficult for employers to hire these underskilled workers since socialist wage laws and uinin regs make these employees far too expensiive.
It's all France's fault.
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Dunno Grunherz.. I prefer to have a minimum wage instead of having 3 jobs. Having certain rights as a worker means you live a more humane life.
Sure it means more unemployment but with any benefit there will always be people abusing it. Our system protects the employees from unfair treatment and the social security provides a safety network which will provide minimum income. You have to realize that the dole gives an income which is $300 / month below the generally accepted poverty level. You can get by on that money, but nobody wants to do that for long.
Well, unless they do black money jobs on the side.
I know I wouldn't want to end up on the street after getting in an accident or chronically ill and blowing medical insurance.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
This is true and it's exactly the cause of the problem. THe socialist french economic system makes it too easy for these young people to exist without working and entirely too difficult for employers to hire these underskilled workers since socialist wage laws and uinin regs make these employees far too expensiive.
It's all France's fault.
Almost right, albeit they are underskilled because they were too lazy to pull their finger out of their arses at school.
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It's all a metter of degree of course. The usa has minimum wage laws, union protections, and other worker protection laws but we have, even in these slow economic times nowehere the level of unemployment guarnteed by current european socialist state laws.
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I'm pulling some numbers out of the air for this one.
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You are pulling numbers out of thin air perhaps?
Lets have a meaningful discussion about government subsidies excluding the transfer of military technology to commercial applications, and excluding tax breaks and business incentives. BOTH Boeing and Airbus take equal advantage of these technology transfers and special business and tax arrangements.
These are not the gripes of Boeing. Boeing complains about the use of risk free capital to develop high risk commercial jetliners. Airbus recieves billions in risk free loans from the governments of spain, germany, france and the uk. Boeing recieves no such guaranteed risk free loans from any government for any program and is competing against a company that will not, or can not compete fairly. Boeing puts its very existence into jeapordy every time in launches a new airliner, its called risk and its what happens in a free market. Airbus faces no such risk.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
It's all a metter of degree of course. The usa has minimum wage laws, union protections, and other worker protection laws but we have, even in these slow economic times nowehere the level of unemployment guarnteed by current european socialist state laws.
You have a point. It's the same in this country. We've taken on board a lot of the good points from the USA way of doing things. Result is a 4.3% unemployment rate. A labour shortage, 100, 000 immmigrants from Poland alone arrived in the last two years and we need more. The French were terrified of the mythical 'Polish plumber' arriving and undercutting the locals. Let me tell you, all the Polish plumbers are here earning the same high wages as the Irish plumbers. The economy has boomed since we dropped all that high tax, socialist dogma some years ago. Yes we do have poor people still although you really have to try very hard to be out of work these days.
As long as many countries like France and Germany persist with the old socialist way of things. They will continue to have problems. People with jobs and a future don't riot. The rioters in France have nothing to lose.
The Muslim thing is a red herring. Right now I think this continued rioting is simply hooliganism and lawlessness. It needs to be sorted fast.
Having said I have great faith in the French ability to solve their problems. It will be done the French way and no doubt it will work. I really do not like all this French bashing anymore than I like Ameri bashing. Equally stupid.
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hmmm ... I think it was the arrival of the polish plumber to work in France with the polish wadge.
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Originally posted by cpxxx
You have a point. It's the same in this country. We've taken on board a lot of the good points from the USA way of doing things. Result is a 4.3% unemployment rate. A labour shortage, 100, 000 immmigrants from Poland alone arrived in the last two years and we need more. The French were terrified of the mythical 'Polish plumber' arriving and undercutting the locals. Let me tell you, all the Polish plumbers are here earning the same high wages as the Irish plumbers. The economy has boomed since we dropped all that high tax, socialist dogma some years ago. Yes we do have poor people still although you really have to try very hard to be out of work these days.
As long as many countries like France and Germany persist with the old socialist way of things. They will continue to have problems. People with jobs and a future don't riot. The rioters in France have nothing to lose.
The Muslim thing is a red herring. Right now I think this continued rioting is simply hooliganism and lawlessness. It needs to be sorted fast.
Having said I have great faith in the French ability to solve their problems. It will be done the French way and no doubt it will work. I really do not like all this French bashing anymore than I like Ameri bashing. Equally stupid.
Yep, we've seen similar types of youth mob violence in other countries, Honduras and Brazil could be modern examples. I think it's a consequence of having a generation of people who believe that they have no future.
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If Boeing were loaned billions of dollars with a no risk gurantee by the US government to develope the successor to the 747 jumbo to compete directly against the a380, you would start to get an idea as to what I have been talking about.
Currently Boeing recieves no such money. Airbus has received the equivalent of over 15 billion euros since 1967 in no risk loans from the governments of spain, france, germany and uk.
Heres the bottom line: If the first a380 were to slam into the ground with 800 passengers on board during its maiden revenue flight, and no more a380s were ever built, Airbus would not have to repay any of the money it was loaned to develope that airplane.
If the first 787 crashes, and no more are made, boeing would default on the entire commercial business. Thats the risk that Boeing takes that airbus does not.
I think this little sidebar illustrates clearly the potential for a very poor future between europe and america. Your reluctance to address this issue is a real reflection of the overall euro attitude towards unfairly undercutting american industrial strength at every opportunity. Any dishonest move is a legitamit move when applied against american industry.
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I think it's a consequence of having a generation of people who believe that they have no future.
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We all get to die. What future is there in that?........
Perhaps if they studied the life of Jesus Christ they would realize they have a future. A bright future, full of Gods love.....an eternity!
An eternity in the blissfull joy and love of the Lord, forever and ever....amen.
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Lol that's all fine and dandy Yeager.. You just forget that everyone does _not_ even believe in that stuff.
I find your logic interesting on the airbus / boeing deal. So you think $150 mil of overpay which you do not need to pay back is somehow worse than a guaranteed loan which you will need to pay back if all goes as planned?
Let's make a deal. I'll get $1mil from Donald Trump as a present, you get a loan from europe (which you will need to pay back if you succeed in business). Which one will be happier?
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Take a look around the world from China to you own back yard and tell me where does honesty or "fair" play a part in capitalism?
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rule of law is a critical concept. From the family unit, to the town, city, county, parish.....colony...state, nation....league of nations.........united nations......whatever you unit of measurement is.
I agree capitalism is victimized by greed just as communism and socialism are victimized by greed. Both politically and economically.
Do you agree steinhoff that law plays no useful role in global economics?
WTO is as useful to global economics as the UN is to global politics....is this a fair statement?
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Originally posted by Yeager
I think this little sidebar illustrates clearly the potential for a very poor future between europe and america. Your reluctance to address this issue is a real reflection of the overall euro attitude towards unfairly undercutting american industrial strength at every opportunity. Any dishonest move is a legitamit move when applied against american industry.
ok, how about this:
EL-AL the Israeli national airline decided to replace its aging fleet. After considering the alternatives, they decided - Airbus. The US goverment didn't like that and forced the Israeli goverment to force EL-AL to switch to Boing.
Fair business competition? :rolleyes:
The US goverment has its own ways of financially supporting american industry with no-risk money. See also "foreign aid".
We all get to die. What future is there in that?........
Perhaps if they studied the life of Jesus Christ they would realize they have a future. A bright future, full of Gods love.....an eternity!
An eternity in the blissfull joy and love of the Lord, forever and ever....amen.
lol :rofl
I liked that, really :)
Bozon
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These are not the gripes of Boeing. Boeing complains about the use of risk free capital to develop high risk commercial jetliners. Airbus recieves billions in risk free loans from the governments of spain, germany, france and the uk. Boeing recieves no such guaranteed risk free loans from any government for any program
Not true. The Japanese government has contributed about $1.5 billion to Dreamliner development, the Italian government about $500 million. That's in grant aid, though, not loans, so it never has to be paid back.