Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Toad on August 01, 2000, 04:17:00 PM
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Be Ye Men of Valour
BBC, May 19, 1940
First Broadcast as Prime Minister to the British People
"Having received His Majesty's commission, I have formed an Administration of men and women of every Party and of almost every point of view. We have differed and quarreled in the past; but now one bond unites us all -- to wage war until victory is won, and never to surrender ourselves to servitude and shame, whatever the cost and the agony may be. This is one of the most awe-striking periods in the long history of France and Britain. It is also beyond doubt the most sublime. Side by side, unaided except by their kith and kin in the great Dominions and by the wide empires which rest beneath their shield - side by side, the British and French peoples have advanced to rescue not only Europe but mankind from the foulest and most soul-destroying tyranny which has ever darkened and stained the pages of history. Behind them - behind us- behind the Armies and Fleets of Britain and France - gather a group of shattered States and bludgeoned races: the Czechs, the Poles, the Norwegians, the Danes, the Dutch, the Belgians - upon all of whom the long night of barbarism will descend, unbroken even by a star of hope, unless we conquer, as conquer we must; as conquer we shall."
Their Finest Hour
June 18, 1940
House of Commons
"What General Weygand called the Battle of France is over. I expect that the Battle of Britain is about to begin. Upon this battle depends the survival of Christian civilization. Upon it depends our own British life, and the long continuity of our institutions and our Empire. The whole fury and might of the enemy must very soon be turned on us. Hitler knows that he will have to break us in this Island or lose the war. If we can stand up to him, all Europe may be free and the life of the world may move forward into broad, sunlit uplands. But if we fail, then the whole world, including the United States, including all that we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new Dark Age made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights of perverted science. Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves that, if the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, "This was their finest hour." "
Like him or not, the PM had a way with words.
It seems he had a pretty clear personal opinion of what was at stake.
Just a view into what one of the major policy makers was saying to his constituency.
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Since 1973 in the United States alone we have killed over 40 million unborn babies. How can anyone think that we are any better than Hitler, Stalin or any other madman who places worldly power, money, and pleasure over the very basic principles of human existence, that being the sanctity of all human life.
Who are we kidding to think that we didnt slink back into the dark abyss. In this country alone we have a President that went so low as to even leave his country rather than serve it, when he was called to do so. And now he is the Commander and Chief of the Armed Forces. In my opinion by his vetoing the partial birth abortion ban he is a bigger murderer than Hitler! This is a joke for us as Americans to see the splinter in other countries eyes and overlook the plank in our own.
No one is arguing that Hitler was not a degenerate madman and no one has voiced any support for him or his ideology. But how about some understanding for the duty of a soldier and a civilian for being caught up in a situation that was not all that clear at the time.
We have a holocaust museum in this country located in Washington DC. We can memorialize the atrocities caused by another country, another madman, how about our own!
How about a holocaust museum for the American Indian, or the black slaves that were slaughtered, killed, beaten, sold, torn apart from their families. How about looking into the mentality of a country that has elementary children killing classmates?
Am I glad to be an American? Of course I am, but lets look at the truth for what it is and not what we think it is. Lets open our eyes and see the evil that exists right here, right now. And maybe then we can learn to have some compassion in this world, for all people.
[This message has been edited by NineZ (edited 08-01-2000).]
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Good, Nine! Real Good!
Let's get this going in here instead of the General Discussion!
Feel the HEAT!
as an added log on the fire, I'll throw this in....
As much as we would like to judge our predecessors based on our own excruciatingly clear, infallible (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) sense of right and wrong, our present morality...we can't.
For example, the present abortion debate that you allude to. It wasn't even a player back then. Yes, there were abortions but it was CLEARLY a practice that was not within the "approved" societal mores of the time.
Have we slid back into the abyss? Good question, one which each of us must answer within. If so, what do we do about it?
What of Bosnia? Was intervention necessary? If so, what countries had the duty? Did they act in a timely manner?
It's easy to argue...tough to act.
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 08-01-2000).]
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First we have to respect life here, then worry about life there.(Bosnia, Germany or wherever) Thats my point. But I know the majority will not agree with this.
Thats okay, Im used to it.
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Heh, I am on the other side of the fence again (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif). But, will not open this can of worms (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
<tongue firmly placed in cheek>
I will now go and kill some unborn hens and roosters. Being the sadist I am, I shall boil them in water for no more than three minutes, crack open the shell and then devour them.
Then, maybe, if I get lucky, I shall find a caterpillar...err, unborn butterfly, and watch it fly.
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
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Fine, Santa; argue whatever you wish in the O-Club....but how are you going to work in your "evil Americans" schtick into that area?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Chickens and butterflies? Tongue in cheek? Smiley faces?
Let me know the next time you have sex with a chicken and create an egg and then eat it, will ya.
Im talking about responsible pro-creation, about the gift of human life and you reduce it to chickens and butterflies.
Chickens and butterflies arent dying of Aids by the millions. Rampant sexually transmitted diseases are not reducing the fertility rate within butterflies.
We do agree that the egg comes before the chicken however and with the fact that if your parents would have aborted you wouldn't be here to talk about honor and the Luftwaffe. But who cares about them, lets focus on the bombed out chicken coops, and the butterfly habitat.
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Originally posted by NineZ:
Let me know the next time you have sex with a chicken and create an egg and then eat it, will ya.
oh well I'd like to know about it,too...and I'd pay well for teh exclusive press rights (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Im talking about responsible pro-creation, about the gift of human life and you reduce it to chickens and butterflies.
Chickens and butterflies arent dying of Aids by the millions. Rampant sexually transmitted diseases are not reducing the fertility rate within butterflies.
We do agree that the egg comes before the chicken however and with the fact that if your parents would have aborted you wouldn't be here to talk about honor and the Luftwaffe. But who cares about them, lets focus on the bombed out chicken coops, and the butterfly habitat.
Now tell me...not that I support one cause or another, but tell me.
Suppose, I'm with a girl who I love dearly and of course I want to be and share all with her. I take precautions, use condon, all you want. But something fails and a baby comes.
Now I am 22, she would be some near me. We both students, and both on moderate conservative families who wont accept well a kid.
Tell me which way is the best for all to go ahead and have the kid ruining a lot of things on her life ,and surely the kid's too?
I ,again, repeat this is a supossition. I've never been there and I hope I never am. But if I am confronted one day to sacrifice my future and her's because an accident has happened...
sorry but I wont go ahead, if she doesnt want. (If she wants I'd accept it. In fact is her decision not mine's)
No blacks or whites...greys...always greys...
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 08-01-2000).]
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LOL.. if abortion bothers you; don't have one.
Hey NineZ.. you got tits?? Frankly; yer opinion ain't worth squat unless you can convince the concieving women of this nation of your argument.. it's up to them. Not up to us. Or you.
The overwhelming majority of women are pro-abortion. Yer gonna convince her that if she is raped and becomes pregnant she must have the baby?? What gives you the right to make any decisions about her body? If she insisits that all men of a certain mein MUST be castrated; are you gonna get frosty?
If you get a girl pregnant; a child she does not wish to have, you want the right to force her to take it to term and then reserve the right to take it from her?
LOL.. not likely.
Hang
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Oh hey.. since we're off on tangents..
56,000 Americans died in Vietnam; over better than 10 years of conflict.
62,000 Americans died of drunk driving LAST YEAR.
Anybody threating to overthrow the government; rioting on the campuses in bitter protest or moving to Canada to avoid the turnpikes?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
[This message has been edited by Hangtime (edited 08-02-2000).]
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RAM in that situation... You be a MAN and raise YOUR CHILD. If you can't handle the responsibility... then you should have kept your tool in the toolbox. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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BTW Hang, those drunk driving statistics are as porked as the WarBirds gunnery model. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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From the book "Finest Hour":
Page 99-100: The arguement that Monday afternoon went to the heart of the differences between the two men. All Churchill's instincts were to fight on and see what might happen, believing that a show of defiance could change everything. In language that doubtless made Halifax wince, Churchill told the War Cabinet that he would rather go down fighting than be enslaved to Germany. But Halifax did not see the world, or the war, in such dramatic terms. Diplomacy normally offers a middle way: a concession here, a trade-off there.
But Churchill understood something that Halifax did not. Hitler was not a nineteeth century statesman and this war was not about redrafting treaties or adjusting the balance of power. It was something else, something outside either man's experience. It was a war of ideology, a war of enslavement.
In these last hours before Dunkirk, Britain's leaders were as close to caving in as they ever came. Had Halifax been sitting in Churchill's chair as he so nearly was, then some kind of peace deal might well have been attempted. Whether the nation would have accepted it is a different question. But deprived of firm, confident leadership, and faced with disaster in France and the likelihood of terror bombing, many surely would have accepted the judgement of their government. But Halifax was not sitting in Churchill's chair. And strangely, surprisingly, out of the mouth of the embattled Prime Minister, a kind of script for the Battle of Britain began to emerge. Instead of accepting the logic of defeat, Britain would rearm, regroup, and remotivate herself. From her island fortress she would spit defiance, her sailors would deter invasion, and her pilots would claw the Luftwaffe out of the skies. Even though her cities might be flattened she would put up such a glorious show of resistance that the rest of the world, and especially America, would realize she was worth supporting.
Page 107: Later in his life Churchill modestly described himself as the agent of a natural force that ran throughout the land. But that cannot stand as the sole explanation for the peculiar chemistry of this moment. During these last few days of May, with the army about to be lost and Britain's only allies falling headlong out of the war, with the Americans standing on the sidelines and international opinion convinced that Hitler was unstoppable, Churchill was the force of resistance. The British people were a lot more fragile at this time than they would later remember - hence the phone taps and the letter openings and the intense official concern about morale. Without the hope and inspiration that began to flow from the top, then the draining logic of appeasement might well have taken hold once again.
Coming only three weeks into his government, three weeks of constant crisis and exhaustion, Churchill's rebuttal of the peace moves of late May was a determining moment in world history. For a few precious days he had managed to hold the brakes on the "slipper slope" down which the world was careering toward Nazi victory in World War II.
Originally posted by Pongo:
In my opinion...
Black and white really. To me anyway.
One group of servicemen valiantly and efficienlty tried to spread slavery, hate, torture, and pain to the world.
One group reluctantly but valiantly and dogedly fought a war they did not want, in a way they did not like, against an enemy they did not chose.
Both sides were fighting for us in a way. But only one side for our best interests.
Well said Pongo!!!
NineZ,
I thank God Almighty that the likes of you do not hold power in this country. Your ilk would quickly have us down the slippery slope of a mixture of Church and State, something our founding fathers so wisely avoided. How long after we start legislating morality before we start legislating which religions are acceptable to the standing government? How long before we start entering wars, not as peacemakers (however foolish that might be), but rather to support our fellow Christians against the infidel? I will fight to the death to defend your right to your opinions and your right to state your opinions, but I will also fight to the death against any tyranical government that tries to force its beliefs on me and mine.
The rule is that we cherish our liberties and we respect the liberties of others even if we do not like them ourselves.
Sisu
-Karnak
[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 08-02-2000).]
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Oh hey.. since we're off on tangents..
56,000 Americans died in Vietnam; over better than 10 years of conflict.
62,000 Americans died of drunk driving LAST YEAR.
Anybody threating to overthrow the government; rioting on the campuses in bitter protest or moving to Canada to avoid the turnpikes?
LOL hang, thanks for bringing some perspective into the thread (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Now if only I could work in an anti American angle on this...
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 08-02-2000).]
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Chickens and butterflies? Tongue in cheek? Smiley faces?
Alas; such is my life. I take thing seriously only when absolutely necessary. Even then, I try to chuckle. Once, I was a very serious young man, and was very depressed as a consequence. Now, I am much more happy. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Let me know the next time you have sex with a chicken and create an egg and then eat it, will ya.
Ah, but that is not the issue! The issue is I am destroying a life here. ;D
And, my poit about buttefliers, eggs and caterpillars was and is: a caterpillar is not a butterfly. An egg is not a chicken. A foetus is not a person. Even if it was, we would be moving up to the question of right of self determination. One thing I know; to Americans, this is a paramount right in most circumstances.
Im talking about responsible pro-creation, about the gift of human life and you reduce it to chickens and butterflies.
Hm, sorry for that. I am all for responsible procreation. Not too sure about the gift of human life; I didn't ask for it and am quite sure a few people don't see it as a gift. My being here was the result of my parents (hopefully) wish to have another kid. Their wishes, not mine. Pretty selfish when you think about it from one specific perspective; here I want something that could very well turn out to be hell for another human being, but, knowing this, I still go ahead. For those of you who haven't been through a clinical depression, the idea of life being a torment and not worth living might be alien, but personally I've known the feeling. This is, however, a tangent (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). Life is good (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
Chickens and butterflies arent dying of Aids by the millions. Rampant sexually transmitted diseases are not reducing the fertility rate within butterflies.
Running the risk of sounding cynical, it seems like the fertility rate of our species is quite good, even with HIV around. Too good, some would argue, for our planet. Even so, this has more to do with safe sex than abortion, methinks.
We do agree that the egg comes before the chicken however and with the fact that if your parents would have aborted you wouldn't be here to talk about honor and the Luftwaffe. But who cares about them, lets focus on the bombed out chicken coops, and the butterfly habitat.
I see your point and apologize for joking around with a topic that is important to you.
I wouldn't know if I was aborted, since I would not be.
As an interesting tangent, popular philosopher Peter Singer argues that the death of a baby is less severe than the death of an adult, simply since the baby doesn't lose as much *actual* value - it loses *potential* value, i.e something the baby does not yet have. While a bit revolting to read and hard to agree on, I guess he has a minor point.
I need to get rid of this damned soap box.
<checks box>
"Made in USA" - go figure. Damned opportunists.
<S!>
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
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Thanks guys, I just wanted to bring some truth into the discussion of Holocausts. They come in all shapes and sizes.
I will let you guys get back to Aces High now.
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"Made in USA"
Nope. Nowadays, the American technocracy is Japanese cameras and electronics; German cars; and south american shoes and textiles.
And Scandaniavian Soapboxes.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
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My original intent in starting this thread was simply to get the argument over morality OUT OF the General Discussion thread and into a more appropriate forum. The O-Club venue allows those who have no interest in the thread to be, essentially, oblivious to the wailing and gnashing of teeth.
I did not really think it would turn into an "abortion" topic but upon reflection, I can quite easily see how it led to NineZ's commentary.
I really DON'T want to continue down the abortion road but there is a direct connection to that thread over the LW's role.
It's that difficult "when is human life human life" question.
The world does not go to war when a litter of mongrel puppies is drowned at birth. Oh, the PETA folks get pretty worked up but they are generally the non-violent types anyway.
OTOH, most of the world got pretty worked up <albeit a bit too late> over the state-sponsored genocide perpetrated by Hitler's regime.
That particular regime, however, characterized those it destroyed as "sub-human"; in other words, akin to a litter of mongrel pups. No great loss to humanity. The Nazi public posture was that they were doing the world a favor.
Somewhere in between those two data points lies a man's personal conscience.
Clearly, the world has decided that rounding up humans and systematically putting them to death is not "OK". Oh, it went on before Hitler and it is still going on in some places, I guess. The world just doesn't condone it. Doesn't do much about it, but doesn't like it. There's not going to be a world war about it.
On to what NineZ pointed out.
So when is a human a human that should be given society's protection? Moment of conception? Moment the fetus can stay alive outside the womb, given the local medical capability? Normal birth at term?
Or only when he/she has clearly joined/been identified with a "group" like "Aryan" or "Jew" or "Gypsy" or "Political Activist" or "Homosexual"?
Surely no one would advocate carrying the fetus to full term and then killing it minutes after a live birth?
What of partial-birth abortion at mid-term then? Is that a human dying?
When does the world step in and say "This is human, not "sub-human" life. Let it be; respect it." ?
I don't have the answers for you. I have the answers for ME. You live with your conscience and I live with mine. Which is as it should be.
I respect NineZ and I think he raises a valid point for consideration.
Isn't it funny how those who clearly do not respect "the sanctity of human life" seem to drag those who purportedly do into bloody, savage, armed conflict to settle the differences?
It will probably always be so.
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 08-02-2000).]
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Originally posted by Hangtime:
"Made in USA"
Nope. Nowadays, the American technocracy is Japanese cameras and electronics; German cars; and south american shoes and textiles.
And Scandaniavian Soapboxes.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
At least we can be pretty sure AH is "Made in the USA", unless Hitech and co. are secretly hiding in a wherehouse in taiwan with a net connection to a little office in texas.....
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Hamish!
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Originally posted by funked:
RAM in that situation... You be a MAN and raise YOUR CHILD. If you can't handle the responsibility... then you should have kept your tool in the toolbox. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
In that situation if I am asked by her to have the last word I'd say that NO, I dont want a kid when I am 22.
BUT!:
If she wants the kid then I'd go ahead and be with her when the baby comes. And I help to raise it, its my son and so my responsability.
But the last word is not mine...is her's. If she wants to have it, I'd be there. If she wants to stop it, I'd be there. IF I am told to decide I'd decide NO.
But of course I dont avoid my responsability.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 08-02-2000).]
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Originally posted by RAM:
In that situation if I am asked by her to have the last word I'd say that NO, I dont want a kid when I am 22.
BUT!:
If she wants the kid then I'd go ahead and be with her when the baby comes. And I help to raise it, its my son and so my responsability.
But the last word is not mine...is her's.
So, if she decides to have it, and denies you any participation, and denies you visitation, is the last word still hers?
I always thought that "it's the woman's body, it's her choice" bit was the most wildly PC crap I'd heard.
[This message has been edited by Waxer (edited 08-02-2000).]
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Originally posted by Waxer:
So, if she decides to have it, and denies you any participation, and denies you visitation, is the last word still hers?
I always thought that "it's the woman's body, it's her choice" bit was the most wildly PC crap I'd heard.
If she wants to have it, and we have it, WE have it. Its the same ship for both us.
If she refuses the right of visitation?...waxer you are walking out of line here...you really thing a young mother would do that when the father of the kid wants to help her to raise the little boy/girl?
I dont think so. More, because I use to have good taste with women and like the ones who are good persons, apart of beautiful (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (uh..thats why I am currently alone ! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
J/K
Seriously I doubt a young mother would do what you suggest.
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It happens every day. It's not a rare thing at all. Just check with some of the local civil service agencies anywhere that deal with unwed mothers.
The one in my neighborhood is called "The Lighthouse." In contributing to them, I have met several young mothers that have adopted that EXACT stance.
It would be really nice if the world was actually the way we think it is when we are so young and idealistic. There's so much reassurance in knowing you can never be wrong and that you have all the answers.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Happened to a good friend of mine. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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Happened to a friend of mine as well.
Waxer, we're geographically close, I wonder how small the world is? What is your friend's name? Ya never know, might be the same guy. Initials B.F. seem to match at all?
Sisu
-Karnak
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Originally posted by Toad:
It would be really nice if the world was actually the way we think it is when we are so young and idealistic. There's so much reassurance in knowing you can never be wrong and that you have all the answers.
I know I can be wrong and know I have no answer for a lot of things. And I use to move myself to search those answers.
Of course I am aware that my knowledge in LIFE is near Zero. We all learn as we grow.
But for sure what you say about young mothers surprised me a lot.
banana...sorry 'bout your friend (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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On a more upbeat note: I think European women are (not sure I have the right words for this) doing a lot better than American women. And therefore are more attractive.
You might be right, Ram, in your comment that "a young woman would never do this" in Europe.
I was raised in Ireland, and have spent a lot of time all over Europe (not to Spain yet, though!). I've lived in the US for a long time, and am thoroughly Americanized. I think there are big differences between the women of the two regions.
I think European women still basically *like* men, and are more open to them. To continue to generalize, I also think they don't believe that "men and women are basically the same", and they enjoy the differences.
A lot of American women have become changed over the last several decades. A lot of them I run into seem to be angry, soured, and deep down just don't like men.
I discussed this one time with a 33-year-old Irishwoman friend of mine, who has lived here for 15 years and has a lot of American female friends. She too says she can observe a difference similar to what I describe, but also finds it difficult to describe in words.
Current fantasy #1: meeting a nice European woman who likes good food, good wine, Napa, and, er ... a good furball now and again!!
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Nope, my friend's initials are M.B.
Now, what the hell does "sisu" stand for? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Originally posted by Karnak:
Happened to a friend of mine as well.
Waxer, we're geographically close, I wonder how small the world is? What is your friend's name? Ya never know, might be the same guy. Initials B.F. seem to match at all?
Sisu
-Karnak
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For all you Anti-Abortion people I have a couple questions.
1. How many children have you adopted.
2. How many children with physical deformaties or crippling deseases have you adopted.
3. How many children do you care for in foster care.
4. How much time do you donate taking care of children while single mothers are at work or schoo.
5. How much money do you donate to your local orphanage or low income child care center.
6. How much time do you spend caring for children addicted to narcotics because their mothers were users.
7. How much time to you spend caring for and helping abused children.
9. How much time do you spend mentoring children whose fathers have left and do not pay child support.
10. Do you know how many children without parents (Under the age of 15 say) are in your community without parents/guardians?
11. How much time/money/shelter/work do you spend helping homeless families.
Being a man, even one who is being responsible for your own offspring does not qualify you in my opinion to comment on the abortion issue.
Personally I am against abortion, and if a few circumstances were met I would be one of the most vocal anti-abortion people on the planet.
Here are my conditions.
1. End of World Hunger.
2. End of Child Abuse.
3. End of War.
4. All unwanted children are adopted by loving parents.
5. End of pestilence.
7. All men were willing and desirous of caring for their offspring, ensuring that they had clothing, shelter, food and an education.
8. End of Rape.
9. End of Incest.
10.End of Slavery.
11. I don't know that we need an end to birth defects, but its on my list anyhow.
12. End of conditions were the mother can die in child birts.
13. Children are only born to people who are willing to accept total responsibility for them and will make it the focus of their lives to nuture and care for their children.
14. End of Violence.
15. End of Drug/Alcohol Addiction.
I will probably add more, but those are the basics.
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(http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1/dtahcard.gif)
"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!
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Oh, heres a good one.
16. End of religious persuctution, and bias, each and every religion will accept that others have different beleifs and accept that those individuals are entitled to those beliefs.
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(http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1/dtahcard.gif)
"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!
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Toad, sorry, thank you for sharing the historic quotes of Winston Churchill.
I get aggrivated when someone take what could be a discussion of Winston Chruchill and turns it into a discussion of Americas current foibles.
If you don't like the current crop of politicians get out and vote. Better yet run for office and do better.
Clinton was elected President by a majority of people who got off their tulips and voted. Now people bash Clinton because he got a blow-job in the oval office and lied about it. Kennedy did too, and he is practically sanctified in America.
George H. Bush was the director of the CIA and a Pilot in WWII. HE KILLED PEOPLE!
Ronald Regan was an informer to the FBI concerning members of the Media who were or at one time may have been members of the LEGAL communist party of America.
Nixon also lied in office, had people break into the Deomcratic Party National Headquarters to plant listening devices.
Ford was on the Warren Commision.
Eisenhower was the Supreme Allied Commander in Europe during WWII. He approved many of the early assasination attempts on Castro and the Bay of Pigs invasion.
How far back do you want me to go on Presidential Skeletons in their closets? I don't think Clinton is a great man, but he is president, and the economy is fairly stable.
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"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!
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With yah Downtown.. Nice one. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
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Well, Downtown, for the sake of argument alone.....<and this is a nice one (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) >
How many _Pro-Abortion_ folks do all those things?
Probably not many either. Their solution, instead, is to terminate the pregnancy at some stage, right?
I return to my previous question, that each of us has to answer for him/herself.
"So when is a human a human that should be given society's protection? Moment of conception? Moment the fetus can stay alive outside the womb, given the local medical capability? Normal birth at term?"
Damn tough question, with no clear easy answer, isn't it?
We abhorred it when the Nazi's gassed newborns along with the adults, right? From their point of view, though, they were just ridding the world of some mongrels.
These were human lives, right?
So, where do we, the new enlightened society, draw the line?
Or, because the world is a crappy place full of orphans, deformed children, single mothers, narcotics, deadbeat dads, mongrels etc., etc., do we then allow state-subsidized termination of pregnancies?
Further, assuming we do that, at what point in a pregnancy should the state say "OK..wait..this one is so far along that it's already a human." Or should the state have any say at all? Is a fetus ever a citizen?
These are tough, tough questions to me.
I never said I was against all abortion. In fact, I never delineated my personal inner beliefs at all.
I simply said this IS a major question that NineZ originally raised. It bears directly on the previous "LW morality" thread, I think.
"When is human life human life?"
And we all must reach that decision for ourselves. I'm not trying to force mine on anyone.
Nor would I expect YOU to force yours on me.
What I would expect is that BOTH sides of this question are open to different, legitimate conclusions.
Those who trumpet "NO ABORTION, NONE!" are just as blind as those who trumpet "ANY ABORTION, ANYTIME!".
But that's just my opinion. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Thanks DownTown. I was starting to feel isolated in my belief that this is a personal choice. I personally would want to have the child and do the best I could to raise her/him with her/his mother. I do not however believe that I have the right to force my feelings on anybody else. Respect my liberties and I respect your liberties. Frankly I'll respect your liberties even if you don't respect mine, I just might not like you very much for it.
Waxer, sisu is a Finnish word that translates roughly as "What must be done will be done, regardless of the cost". I use it in salute to my Finnish heritage.
Sisu
-Karnak
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Now, why is it only the women gets to make the "life or death" decision? Shouldn't the father have a say?
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Ahhh-ooooooo GAH!
Ahhh-ooooooo GAH!
DIVE! DIVE!
RIG FOR DEPTH CHARGE!
1776, you really jumped into the frying pan now!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I personally find the following absolutely disgusting and I almost didn't post it. Still, I think it also bears on the whole issue we've been discussing about the LW's part in the regime and also makes me see NineZ's point in a different light than I did at first. Plus, it's history. I think we do well not to forget.
There's a bunch of more to this article and other information at: http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/timeline/euthanasia.htm (http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/timeline/euthanasia.htm)
"In October of 1939 amid the turmoil of the outbreak of war Hitler ordered widespread "mercy killing" of the sick and disabled.
Code named "Aktion T 4," the Nazi euthanasia program to eliminate "life unworthy of life" at first focused on newborns and very young children. Midwives and doctors were required to register children up to age three who showed symptoms of mental retardation, physical deformity, or other symptoms included on a questionnaire from the Reich Health Ministry.
A decision on whether to allow the child to live was then made by three medical experts solely on the basis of the questionnaire, without any examination and without reading any medical records.
Each expert placed a + mark in red pencil or - mark in blue pencil under the term "treatment" on a special form. A red plus mark meant a decision to kill the child. A blue minus sign meant meant a decision against killing. Three plus symbols resulted in a euthanasia warrant being issued and the transfer of the child to a 'Children's Specialty Department' for death by injection or gradual starvation.
The decision had to be unanimous. In cases where the decision was not unanimous the child was kept under observation and another attempt would be made to get a unanimous decision.
The Nazi euthanasia program quickly expanded to include older disabled children and adults. Hitler's decree of October, 1939, typed on his personal stationery and back dated to Sept. 1, enlarged "the authority of certain physicians to be designated by name in such manner that persons who, according to human judgment, are incurable can, upon a most careful diagnosis of their condition of sickness, be accorded a mercy death." "
Made me think more about this whole thread; as I said there's even more to it than this.
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Now, why is it only the women gets to make the "life or death" decision? Shouldn't the father have a say?
He does have a say. However, it is up to the woman to decide whether to listen to him or not (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Essentially, the male donates some sperm. The process of gestation takes place as we all know in the woman. While abortion is an ugly thing (I think pro-choice people agree on this) the right to self determination is the issue. I do not believe that I should be forced to carry a parasitic embryo (there I go again, ain't I good? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)) for the sole reason of someone else wanting me to. Not to talk about being forced to go down a future I have no intention of accepting. Then, of course, there is the well being of the potential child.
Let's face it; women have been getting a bad hand for most of history. The least we can do is accept their autonomy over their bodies.
Which brings us back to that Bush fellow. Him in power, half the Supreme Court judges elected by him, that other very conservative chap as vice president. Some issues might change rapidly, but then again, he probably has 8 years (I've noticed that presidents in the US tend to sit the full two terms) to complete his mission of morality. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Heheheee
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
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The maternal instinct is also much stronger than the paternal instinct. It has been demonstrated far too often in my opinion that a father will abandon his offspring, far more often than a mother will.
Even if a woman doesn't want the father of her child involved in the rearing of a child, he can still support the mother (ergo the child) either financially, or be ready and willing if she ever needs assistance.
I know a lot more pro-choice folks that do drug counciling and such, than those who spend their free time at the abortion clinics protesting. My folks are pro-choice and run a foster care facility for special needs children.
Hypocrites just bug me. Like I said I really am against abortion, but I hate that 44% of my income is taken away to support people who don't work and many of those people are capable of working. We need to work on curing some of our other ills before we are close enough to nirvana.
And I don't think that people have a right to condemn a child to a life of pain and suffering, which is about garunteed for an unwanted child.
It isn't fair and I don't like it, but I am not willing to force my morals and beliefs on other, and I resent others trying to force theirs upon me, or anyone else.
Get off the Abortion clinic protest picket line and go work in a day care center, adopt some kids, Help make it better, don't make it worse!
I don't know how many pro-choice people do the things I have listed above, obviously not enough.
I am not qualified to say when a human life begins, were I GOD I would have that qualification, since I am not, I can't say. Let everyone look into their hearts and make that determination for themselves. IF you think they are gonna make the choice for termination, offer to assist them in the care and nurture of the child, offer to adopt it. Don't say "Oh, your evil, oh your bad, oh, your a murderer!" That isn't helping.
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"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!
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Originally posted by Downtown:
I am not qualified to say when a human life begins, were I GOD I would have that qualification, since I am not, I can't ...Don't say "Oh, your evil, oh your bad, oh, your a murderer!" That isn't helping.
Obviously, I'm having trouble explaining myself, but this is a difficult subject. Due to that "LW" thread, it happens that we are relating it to a clear atrocity in WW2.
SOCIETY has to decide "when human life begins".
Nazi society took the approach that some apparently human life is actually "sub-human" and thus "fair game." The world rejected this opinion.
Our current outlook is different. We've all heard of the news stories of the young girl that gives birth and dumps the newborn in the trash. Society does not accept this and usually will prosecute if the infant dies. That's one data point on the birth end of the spectrum.
On the other end is the "morning after pill". Society does tolerate this approach. That's a data point on the conception end of the spectrum.
Somewhere in between conception and live birth, human life obviously begins. At some point, it's a little more significant than drowning unwanted, unneeded kittens.
What is that point? Where does society draw the line, despite all the "bad things" that Downtown correctly points out?
I've heard all the "women's right" stuff...but at what point is it too late for her to choose? We KNOW that waiting and dumping the newborn kid in the trash is definitely too late.
Now NineZ came in here and related the current abortion debate to the LW debate. Obviously, he's decided for himself when "human life begins" and it's EARLY compared to the decisions of some other posters.
Hasn't he followed Downtown's advice to"Let everyone look into their hearts and make that determination for themselves."?
He just doesn't agree with some of you. And he's doing what his conscience dictates as a result. For that, for following HIS conscience and not YOURS...he gets hammered. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Yet, his point is central. Once Society determines where "human life" officially begins, abortion AFTER that point is not abortion.
It's no different than what the Nazis did.
This to me, is the crux of the argument. But I've probably done a poor job of explaining that again.
Still, I love this kind of discussion!
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Quote NineZ:
Since 1973 in the United States alone we have killed over 40 million unborn babies.
I haven't killed any.
How can anyone think that we are any better than Hitler, Stalin or any other madman who places worldly power, money, and pleasure over the very basic principles of human existence, that being the sanctity of all human life.
I don't place power, money and pleasure over human life. I don't think the vast majority of people do. There is a large minority who are irresponsible and don't take actions such as using contraceptives and would choose the "abortion pill" or clinical abortion and think nothig of it. My wife and myself are not that shallow. I don't appreciate NineZ saying I am.
In this country alone we have a President that went so low as to even leave his country rather than serve it, when he was called to do so. And now he is the Commander and Chief of the Armed Forces.
Yep, and he was elected by a Majority. Again, I didn't vote for Clinton, won't vote for Bush or Gore (I hear Ralph Nader is comming on Strong.)
NineZ in saying WE is grouping all American Citizens and associating guilt. I have a problem with that.
Let him direct his comments specifically toward people who would rather get an abortion than use a condom or birth control pill.
You got through to me. I can't say when life starts. I don't like abortion, but I know that reality and nirvana are far apart. I cannot myself judge individuals on their actions when looking at the circumstance and history. I have to leave those decisions to the individuals they affect and pray they make good decisions.
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"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!
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First off, the one thing I am SURE of is that I don't have all the answers, or even very many.
As far as NineZ, I think he was using the "societal WE". I don't think he was pointing at any particular individual or group other than that.
His "we" is our present Society of the US that allows abortion beyond the point he considers life to have begun. (Whatever that point is for him.) This is where the "we aren't any better than the Nazis" part comes from, I believe. What is the common lament from the rest of the world? "How could they have stood by and let this happen?" Isn't that what NineZ is saying to his own society? He gets TO that view primarily by using a different starting point for "the beginning of human life", I think.
I will not fault him for that; obviously he's given it a lot of thought and it may well be a religious issue with him. It is his conscience that speaks to him.
Neither you nor I nor any of us have to agree with his position however. <although I suspect my thoughts lean towards a somewhat early "life" position vis-a-vis our society overall.>
As you pointed out, we make that determination for ourselves. Together, however, we make up the societal rules through our government. (and isn't THAT a bit overly optimistic!)
Now, ALL the previous discussion aside, our society HAS, to an extent, determined what it will allow as "legal." It's been to and from our courts countless times and all we can really say is that the issue is temporarily resolved.
Early in the century, our Society essentially prohibited abortion; continual political action by those in favor of more liberal policies has "swung the pendulum" to where it so uncertainly rests now.
There are those who would swing the pendulum back the other way, and they can be expected to work just as hard and long as their opponents did.
This is our way, isn't it? I would expect nothing less in a free and open society.
One side is free to push, the other side is free to resist that push.
I also think that medical science is going to shed a lot more light on when life begins. The DNA coding was an amazing feat and it's sure to lead to even more knowledge.
Perhaps the cold analysis of science can aid the sorely troubled angst of conscience.
I'm sympathetic to many of your statements DT. But I can also see the point to which NineZ alludes.
Pretty tricky ground we're all on; most of the truly important stuff we deal with in life is much deeper than it first appears.
Now, go fly in front of me so I can WHACK YA! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 08-03-2000).]
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Interesting thread...
Churchill is one of my favourite reads, I consider him to be the Shakespeare (I can't even spell that.. go figure!) of History.
As far as abortion goes, I can just make a reference to a latin american songwriter/singer, when he wrote the following critic in one of his songs when the Vatican proclaimed condoms and other such devices to be "against the faith":
"El Vaticano prohibio los anticonceptivos...prefieren niños con hambre que un preservativo"
*The vatican prohibited contraceptives..they prefer (to have) hungry children than a contraceptive*
-Ricardo Arjona-
And yes, imho,the one who has the last word on the subject is the mother.