Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Hangtime on August 02, 2000, 12:23:00 AM
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Since Toads thread got losy in abortion..
The ugly Americans I *DO* hate are those who claim that their country is the birthplace of democracy, the only free place in the world and that they are the knights who protect democracy everywhere. That's just ignorant, and quite insulting to everyone else.
Well now. Since you insist. I'm glad to have you hate me; cause I'm the classic ugly American by your definition.
So; tell us StSanta. What would your life be like in Denmark right now had we not entered the War; and YES; made the world safe for democracy??
You'd either be goose steppin or peelin turnips for the Boris in a Siberian labor camp; boyo. Or possibly ashes in an oven. I assure you; at this moment, thats a fact that has us both dissapointed.
Like it or not; had America not come to fight the european war, and not shed our blood for western europe's freedom; your home would have a Russian sittin in it...
Or is that what this is REALLY about?
Yer insulted? Good.
Hang
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Damn.. come to think of it.. I forgot all about the Danish airlift to Berlin during the cold war. Oh yeah; the 258 Danes that died in Lebanon.. or the Danish Rangers that fell in Somalia... oh yeah; then there's those Danish peace-keepers in Croatia...
LOL
Sure glad Denmark is the bastion of freedom... no wait; ain't they the HAM guys; pork packers of the free world?
Yha.. thats right. Fine canned ham yah got there Santa.
Hang
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Are these ones your heroes too ?
Maybe that ground hugging pilot in Italy ?
http://faculty.rmwc.edu/slockhart/papers/Omoto/timeokhtm..htm (http://faculty.rmwc.edu/slockhart/papers/Omoto/timeokhtm..htm)
http://nypostonline.com/news/22287.htm (http://nypostonline.com/news/22287.htm)
All rapers should have abullet in their head.
Yer insulted? Good.
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The only reason America was in Europe was to save as much as it could from the USSR, which did most of the work in the ETO.
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I am a history teacher and can assure the person that the Solviet Union could not have beaten Hitler without the Americans. I f it wasn't for USA entering war Russia would have probably went the way of the other nations. Anyone hear of Lend Lease ? Without American food, dollars, planes, ships, tanks, guns, there would have been no Solviet Union. And yes America is the policeman of the world, someone has to do it. France ? Not hardly Denmark ? I think not. You may not like it but without the USA alot of the people who love to hate us would be wishing we were still around. God Bless all the countries that fought Hitler but God Bless the USA for beating him. And before you go blowing Stalin's horn remember how many Jews, poles, gypsys, and others he killed. Not to mention his own people. He was every bit as bad as Hitler. Just the old saying " My enimie's enemy is my friend " came into play before Stalin had a chance to do it to him.
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Little more fuel (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
IMHO without help from Germany (food, panzers, planes, supplies and German support unit "Kuhlmey" with Stukas and 190's) Finland would be occupied by Russians.
Of course you knew that already (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
There were U.S citizens who gave some money to help Finland in winterwar 1939<S for those> but in continuationwar American "Lend&lease" planes attacked in Finland.
Nice move to help Soviet Union to achieve more land in Europe (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
So Hang, did your country help to keep Finland independent? IMO answer is No.
I'm really glad Germans did.
(cold weather here, Need some flames (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif))
"Nobody respects a country with a poor army, but everybody respects a country with a good army. I raise my toast to the Finnish Army."
J. Stalin 1948
Added funny pic (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
(http://users3.50megs.com/staga/stalin.gif)
Strange... img sometimes appears, sometimes not ?
[This message has been edited by Staga (edited 08-02-2000).]
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lol craven... you must be joking?
By July of 43 before the US did anything of any significance to Germany the Germans were already being routed back to Poland and the Ukraine... the USSR was a JUGGERNAUT, Germany could not have faced 10:1 odds in infantry and superiority in numbers of equipment.
As for American lend-lease... gemme a break... Russia got all the crap the US didn't find usefull. Perhaps the P39 was OK but the Luftwaffe still owned the air in the east untill the closing stages of the war.
Go look at the number of causalties the USSR suffered during WW2... 'nuff said.
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 08-02-2000).]
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Heheheh, I'll bite. The Gods know I do not fear confrontations (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Hangtime, to start with, I cannot really believe you think democracy is an American invention. If you do, I hope they invite you to the Jerry Springer show, alongside with the nazi who slept with his Jewish transvestite brother, because that'd be your intellectual class.
What would life in Denmark be like? Well, the sequence of events that were necessary to bring me here would not have happened. Another sperm would have fertilized another egg, and someone else would know. In other words, I cannot know, and I don't care to speculate in this area when I have no substantiated evidence to anything. Maybe I would been part of Hitler's master race; I am blonde, blue eyed and generally very superior looking. Or maybe I would be just another person under communist rule; a communist rule that would be much much stronger than what it turned out to be in Real Life(tm).
<tongue in cheek>
Or, even better, I'd be placed in the cockpit of a MiG 29 and blast True American Patriots like yourself to hell, and laugh doing so.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
So, we will never know, and all you can do is speculate. This will just lead to counterclaims and is quite unproductive.
Like it or not; had America not come to fight the european war, and not shed our blood for western europe's freedom; your home would have a Russian sittin in it...
More like a German. If America hand't intervened, Germany would probably been able to take the Soviet Union as well or at least have avoided a two front war. And, since the Germans at the time considered the Scandinavians part of the Aryan race, I wouldn't be too worried. I'd probably have a handful of southern Europeans as slaves, starting with RAM's sisters. Or captured American spies.
Geesh Hangtime, you *really* like to selectively read posts. Listen to me for one second here; if I was to come screaming *every time* the word democracy was mentioned "we invented it, we defend it, we are free and you are not nyah nyah nyah", you'd be annoyed after a bit. If I then continued with "we saved your bellybutton during WWII!" and you have a thinking mind, you'd start to be irritated. We who? Have you done so Hangtime? Did you fight the Germans? No? Your parents did? Ah, so you always claim credit for the work of others?
If, then, I chose to selectively forget about some parts of history, you'd start to be pissed and use the .squelch command of real life.
Thanks America for stabilizing southern America. God bless CIA intervention there, in defence of freedom and democracy.
My country, a little strip of not very fertile land placed on the northern hemisphere favourably close to the Gulf stream, is a nice one. It has values worth defending. But when it all comes down to it, it's just a piece of land and then someone has put arbitrary lines on a piece of paper declaring that all those on one side of the line are Danes, and the other Germans, Swedes or Norwegians. A great thinker once said "patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" and I am inclined to agree - events in Europe from Alexander the Great to WWI, WWII and the situation on the Balkans have highlighted this truth.
Values, I'll defend. Values are without borders. As much as we disagree, I'd be the first to help defend your rights to disagree with me. But to defend some stupid piece of land because it has been labelled a specific way is foolish. To praise people I do not know who just by chance happen to be born within some lines on a map is foolish, unless it is evident that they've collectively and intentionally done something worth admiring. Even then, I would not hesitate to bring out the bad sides. I mean, the Danes have had a violent past; the Viking era wasn't precisely peaceful, and Denmark has spent more than 142 years at war with Sweden. Not to mention the feudal unfair system that used to be in place. Or currently the social democrats and their evilness (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
In other words, Hangtime, the ugly American I hate is the ignorant one, who selectively glorifies some parts of the action of his lines-on-the-map place, but utterly forget about others.
I've won the European Championship in soccer in 1992.
My toejamhouse is gonna outlast yer country, Hangtime, and do it with more glory.
This IS a flame thread, no? <| (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
But, to smooth things out; the US has come a long way. From a humble start of European trash and rejects, people who couldn't hack it "back home" <G, D, R>, it is now the most powerful nation this planet has ever seen, economically, politically and in the military sense. Fools would argue otherwise.
It's just not the moral beacon of light it claims to be, there's more work to be done in this area. Doing good, aye, but doing best, no.
To finish off this long post (Badger, your Badgerism is spreading (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)) I'll say that I have no animosity towards the US or Americans. On the contrary, the vast majority of Americans I've met have been very friendly, agreeable decent people who know how to drink beer and have a good time. A bit naeive at times, with a tendency to look at their own nation through the eyes of patriots, but that's just cute as long as it is not taken too far. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). Americans are sort of like big cuddly bears with huge rams; cute and nice when passive, but better run when hungry or pissed. My America bashing is only intended to tease and tickle, not enrage.
Eat that, American opportunist high altitude dweebs.
<S!>
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quote StSanta: Thanks America for stabilizing southern America. God bless CIA intervention there, in defence of freedom and democracy.
Would you expand on this statement please?
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Wroooooong... germany could have never taken the USSR on alone.
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Originally posted by Apache:
quote StSanta: Thanks America for stabilizing southern America. God bless CIA intervention there, in defence of freedom and democracy.
Would you expand on this statement please?[/b]
C'mon, StSanta answer this. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Now i am having fun, this flame is very interesting. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
And please, dont forget Philippines and Mexico (1800-1910, i think).
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Originally posted by Hangtime:
Since Toads thread got losy in abortion..
Yeah, but you GOTTA admit that was a way-cool thread title, even if I borrowed it from Winston!
I am enjoying this one fairly well, though. There are some amazing points of view out there, aren't there?
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The three filthiest words in any language are: Duty, Honor and Country.
<tosses another duraflame on the fire>
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LOL.. "scandaniavia"
"Aryan Master Race"
Tell me.. whats yer world contribution? What has yer pissant little pile of icecubes contributed to world peace and democracy in the past 100 years?
I see yer hands out.. odd; you recieved American money and aid; free grants, assistance from the IMF. What have you freeloaders given us?
Ungrateful louts.
A little history lesson. In 1776 there were NO functioning democracys in the world. Not one. Look around now. Who's responsible for THAT? They model those democracys on Denmark or Finland?
Riiiight. Send me another canned ham.
Hang
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C'mon, StSanta answer this.
Aw, c'mon guys! 50% of all Americans I've talked to know what I am talking about. South America? Democractically elected president who sort of ruined his countris economy with his politics?
The American containment policy aimed at containing communism, especially in US back yard?
You know about this (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
To be honest, I recall only general things about it, but I guess I could dig up my old school books and find them (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Not that I would want to do that, since I am not a fan of studies while on a vacation (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I know that the American opportunists were bad, bad boys. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Probably attacked from 30k, too.
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
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A buddy of mine <a WEALTHY buddy> was looking for a P-40 with a war history. <he never found a good project to rebuild, btw>
Those are pretty rare, but he knew the US had sent a bunch to the USSR. In the course of his research, he sent me a listing of all the aircraft the US sent to the USSR during the war.
While I'm looking for that <years of dust covering the files> here's a little something for Nath.
Staga, I assume <UH-OH! DANGER!> the US diplomats meant for the USSR to use this stuff against the common enemy. Didn't turn out that way exactly, now did it?
Anyway,would that be the US's fault or would that more properly fall under the area of the USSR's responsibility?
Anyway, here's some "lite" info on Lend-Lease to the USSR <from http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/text/x19/xm1960.html> (http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/text/x19/xm1960.html>)
"3. A tentative agreement
The Russian premier was less obdurate and suspicious at the final session the next evening. Point by point the participants went over the list of Russia's military needs. By the end of the conference the Western representative had guaranteed to send Russia about one billion dollars' worth of supplies between September 30, 1941, and June 30, 1942: 400 planes and 500 tanks every month; 1,256 antitank guns; 5,000 jeeps; destroyers and trucks, scout cars and barbed wire, medical supplies and shellac, food and raw materials; 400,000 pairs of army boots per month. The final arrangement had the mercurial Stalin, as Beaverbrook put it, beaming like "sunshine after rain."
4. The increasing flow of supplies
Within the next two months 130,000 tons of supplies were sent to Russia, only a small part of what had been promised. Unwieldy bureaucratic machinery and the long, uncertain supply routes continued to delay deliveries. After the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor plunged the United States into the War in December 1941, aid to Russia diminished for a time, but shipments picked up drastically in the spring. By the end of the War the United States would have dispatched more than $11 billion worth of supplies to the Soviet Union, some via the northern Atlantic route to the Russian ports of Murmansk and Archangel and some through Iran, and some also through Alaska."
I seem to remember something in that agreement about the USSR promising to reimburse the US for all that equipment, too.
I believe that debt, like other much more recently added ones, is still outstanding. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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LOL.. "scandaniavia"
Blonde liberated women, yummie. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
"Aryan Master Race"
Don't take it out of context, please (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Tell me.. whats yer world contribution? What has yer pissant little pile of icecubes contributed to world peace and democracy in the past 100 years?
We killed French and Brits about 1000 years ago.
But, didn't think this was a pissing contest. Nevertheless, will say a few things.
Denmark is not a powerful country. It has a decent economy, very small size, and comparatively small population size of some 5.5 million or so.
In order to compare it to the US, we'd have to check "bang for buck" - i.e the worth each citizen has produced. Last I checked, the US had 280 million inhabitant opportunists or so
Which would mean that the US would have to do better on a ratio of 50:1. Having seen your tv shows and movies, I'm confident it hasn't been met (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Aside from a few physicists, writers and philosophers, I guess Denmark hasn't been very world leading. And, to be honest, I don't give a rats ass. My country provide me with stuff and hi tech toys, free education and blonde girls, and that is what life is about - having fun. Continue your pissing contest; I will go out with blonde girls instead. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
I see yer hands out.. odd; you recieved American money and aid; free grants, assistance from the IMF. What have you freeloaders given us?
Are you speaking about me, or other people in my country? And are you speaking of the present, or the past?
Well, we've given you culture, my friend (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). And, to Danish Americans, roots, something America doesn't really have due to it only having existed for such a short brief iddly widdly little wink of a moment.
American culture inevitably is a mixture of (the dominant, due to historical past) European one, African and Asian. The majority of people in power are (unfortunately I'd say when one thinks about the great diversity of cultures in the US) decendants of white Europeans.
It seems you forget that the Marshall help money werein large part returned to the US in return for equipment; the US war machine was rapidly converted to civilian use, and the US would need a market unless they wanted a repeat of past failures.
I guess we haven't directly given you anything. Not sure why we should; you do not appear to be in need of assistance. But, if you are, let me know and I will talk to some of my elected officials.
Ungrateful louts.
Yes, we are. <finger>
A little history lesson. In 1776 there were NO functioning democracys in the world. Not one. Look around now. Who's responsible for THAT? They model those democracys on Denmark or Finland?
There is the little matter of ancient Greece, but I shall not bore you with foreign crap.
Technically, Denmark is not a democracy, but a constitutional monarchy. Then again, I've never claimed Denmark is the defender or creator of democracy.
Riiiight. Send me another canned ham.
Here you go. Just put it next to the one I rammed up your processed food exit hole (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Damned opportunist.
<laughing so hard his stomach is hurting>
Hang
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
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Yup. we've never met a nation yet that couldn't be bombed. Or bribed. Or bilked.
Of course; we could just send Jane Fonda on a world tour. If she shows up in your Capitol, I suggest you start diggin a hole to crawl into.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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The greek concepts or city-states and representative government were unique.. but did not survive. Rome gave republicanisim a shot almost 800 years later; but Ceaser had other ideas and we all know what happened when the Scandanavians showed up a few hundred years after Ceaser. (yah scurvy barbarian bastids) That ended the democratic experiment for almost TWO THOUSAND years. Thats how many generations??
Yah; we led the way for the modern world; and its the dirty dogs and good 'ol boys right HERE in the USA; your former 'euro-trash' so to speak, that gave it teeth; helped it grow; shouldered the arms and came to the lands of their fore-fathers and spilled their blood to save europe's collective asses.
Yah buncha ungrateful louts!!! Ingrates!
The American Democracy was a first; a truly modern concept; based on an ideal from 2000 years previous. Yah; IMHO; America did in fact invent the modern democracy. And if you have elections in your country now; if you have a CHOICE in who yer head of state is, or how you country formulates it's laws you may thank Jolly 'old England; and the United States of America.
(hang kicks staga and santa) Now; stand up and salute the flag of the nations that gave you yer freedom to squeak.
And; as much as it annoys yah santa; I'm glad to see you understand that had not OUR country got off it's collective bellybutton and waltzed on over europe (for the second time) to settle the Hun's hash YOU would not be enjoying yerself right here and now..
Yer welcome. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hey; whatcha doin for vacation this year by the way??
Hang
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Alright, time for Dinger's final exam in Fluency in a Foreign Language for Americans:
Explain the following concepts to a European:
A. 1. Open container laws
2. Dry counties
3. Dry counties without open container laws.
B. Drive-thru mortuary visitations
C. "No shoes, no shirt, no service"
D. The Pledge of Allegiance (Including the shift in saluting style before and after our entry into WWII, and the addition of "under God" to combat the God-hatin' reds)
E. Right on Red, 24-hour shopping and pitchers of beer.
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Oh, and Craven, as an historian, I fully disagree with your argument.
The USSR could have beaten Germany without US dollars. But now we're doing contrary-to-fact speculation about the past, and that ain't history, that's masturbation. Hell, if I were alive, I could have singlehandedly ended the war.
Nobody has to be "the policeman of the world"; Americans just think that someone's gotta do it. And, like cops all over the world, America selectively enforces the laws she polices.
The notion that "Amurrica beat Hitler" is highly simplicistic, if not idiotic. Even if we grant for the sake of argument, that US support was a necessary cause of the outcome of WWII, that does not exclude other necessary causes.
Finally, is evil something we can measure in some sort of utilitarian fashion? Is the crew of the Enola Gay fifty thousand times more evil than our upstanding sergeant on his way from Kosovo to the stockade? Is a person whose paranoical totalitarian state kills 20 million people because they're perceived threats to the dictator as evil as one whose paranoical totalitarian state does that as well, starts the bloodiest war on record, and systematically sets out to exterminate an entire race of people?
Finally did Hitler, Stalin, Churchill and Roosevelt, or even their general staffs fight the war? Is it a valid argument to say, "Well, 20 million Soviet soldiers died, in the process they destroyed the German army, but Stalin was a bad guy, so let's give the crown to AMERICA, well known home of the free." You're supposded to be talking histopry, not the fxckin' Miss Universe contest!
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Hah, we wouldn't even be arguing about this if you Eurotards didn't have such an inferiority complex regarding the U.S.
Us Canadians always put them in their place, and everyone knows that without us, WWI would have been lost, and if THAT had happened, the Americans wouldn't have been able to win WW2, since it wouldn't have been fought (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif), LOL!
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Hangtime,
The fact that you do not know much about other countries and compare things by absolute rather then relative value makes our country seem better to you then it is.
You did not save the democracy in Europe and it does not look like you would, neither would many of our fellow americans. How long can you ride on the achievements of (sombody's) ancestors?
You did not establish the democracy in 1776 and your personal ancestors may not have even been here then. Right now our country is much less democratic than many european countries - did you check the voting turnout from the last elections. Modern americans inherited the system and cannot even maintain it. It is getting worse every year. The laws are getting so complex, that the democracy does not matter in many cases - the beaurocrats are the ones who decide.
Of course it is much easier to take credit for actions of some long dead people then take responcibility for what is happening now.
In lots of things America is "better" only due to it's size. Per person we are much more backward then most european countries and we consume disproportionate share of the worlds resources. We are buying brains and can maintain our leadership in the areas where we have it only because of the constant inflow of people.
If you were to die tomorrow, the life expectancy in US would not be much consolation to you, would it? Why would you be happy with amount of stuff we make all together if per person we could be worse off?
Also, replace "americans" with "germans" in your statement and your speaches can be easily confused with Hitler's. He also though that it was germans that invented everything.
I am a patriot of the America and I think that ignorant people who think we are the best in the world just because you've happen to reside here are the biggest threat to it.
miko--
[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 08-02-2000).]
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Well said, Dinger (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Go on, StSanta (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I have my flag to salute, if i wish to salute one, hangtime (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
If i remember correctly, mr Einstein was german, mr. Fermi was italian miss and mr Curie where French, mr bohr was scandinavian (dont remember), Heisemberg was german, Nobel was Sweden (mmm... dunno ), and so on...
Bagpiper, can you explain why we have to feel inferior??
For money??
Puah !!! (http://users.bart.nl/~jppetiet/ah/fingersmiley.gif)
Sheeee.... trolling post (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif)
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Originally posted by miko2d:
Hangtime,
The fact that you do not know much about other countries...
(CUT)
I am a patriot of the America and I think that ignorant people who think we are the best in the world just because you've happen to reside here are the biggest threat to it.
miko--
As i see, reading miko's and Dinger's posts, there is still hope for future.
Well said miko, wise words.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Hell Naso, where did you get that from? I never said you "were" inferior, just that many non-Americans (i.e. Europeans) have an inferiority complex and this is where much of the stand-offish attitude towards America comes from IMO.
Me saying some Europeans feel inferior doesn't mean that I think they are, just so we are straight on that.
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Originally posted by StSanta:
I'd probably have a handful of southern Europeans as slaves, starting with RAM's sisters
LOL Santa!!! I guess that is the only way you can dream on having them!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
NOW...
USA-First "modern" democracy
LOL! you call a 2-party system "modern democracy"? oh man thats FUN!...
I cant stop hearing,from US people, things like these:
-"I will vote for the lesser bad"
-"I hope we had some decent candidate there instead of what we have"
-"if one is bad the other is worse"
-"after hearing Colin powell in the TV the other day, I wish he was the candidate" (OH MY!!!! )
etc etc etc...
A 2-party thing is not such thing as "MODERN DEMOCRACY", in fact it wasnt nothing new in 1776, Hang, maybe you want to take a look into your books...that was used in Britain for 4 centuries before 1776, when the only north american habitants were indians (and you odnt want to hear what did YOUR ancestors do to the indians, dont you??... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/redface.gif))
...a 2-party thing doesnt work well...maybe it does better in UK because one of the partys (laborists) is a more or less left-winged party (I SAID MORE OR LESS! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)), and the Tory party is a conservative one...
In US there are 2 parties one conservative and the other MORE conservative still...damno I dont know even if the communist party is allowed in US (for sure it was PROHIBITED for MANY years, to be a communist was ILLEGAL and was actively pursued as CRIME...call that liberty of thinking and speech, SIR!)...
So the real chance is...one or another. Here in Europe where REAL democracy is done, most of the times the party in the power needs the ACTIVE support of other parties to do a legitime action of government...its called "pact of government"...if one party hasnt more than 50% on the congress they will be in serious problems (as to elect a president its needed dmore than 50% votes of the congress)...
in US, with a 2 party thing (independents never have counted too much), by definition, there will be ALWAYS a party with more than 50% of the votes...
And that is bad for a democracy. Because basically only counts one party's politics for 4 years while the other party's points of view are rejected one after the other.
Modern democracy? LOL!...that is FAULTY Democracy...we had something like that in XIX century here in spain up to 1931, and the only thing that we got out from that kind of democracy was anarchy and a civil war 5 years later.
So hang...excuse me but you live in a democratic country,yes...but one with a basic fault: lack of multiple parties...
Ah, hang...BTW...dont brag that much about US intervention in WWII...with NO intervention in WWI there would've been NO WWII...
so maybe you only came to put straight something you didnt fix before.
Just a thought.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 08-02-2000).]
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On the South America matters named by StSanta, he may not name those but I'll do:
-General Augusto Pinochet (Chile)
-Nicaraguan Contra (nicaragua)
-General Batista (Cuba)
-Argentinian Militar dictatorships (argentina)
-El Salvador, support to the insurgents
-Uruguay ,support to the Militar dictatorships (CIA personnel supervised the interrogatories to suspected opposing people to the regime)
(the interrogatories were said to be worse than those of the KBG)
-Bahia de Cochinos (Cuba)
-Attempts to kill Castro (each one more ridiculous than the previous)
-ETC ETC ETC ETC
ETC
May I follow?
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One of my relatives Signed the Constitution, was instrumental in the wording of the Declaration of Independence, and another was hanged in Virgina for trying to arm fugitive slaves and start a slave uprising.
I still think mine is bigger than all of you guys.
------------------
(http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1/dtahcard.gif)
"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!
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Oh, and thanks for helping us in our small Civil War against Franco!
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LOL RAM.. three words.
GENERALISSIMO FRANCISCO FRANCO
A Nazi. I seem to recall Americans of note had some small involvement in funding his opposition in your civil war.
RAM; you know dick about America; or our politics. All you have to go on is Baywatch and Scary Movie, or the propoganda pushed at you during your socialist/fascist education.
FYI England does not vote in her monarch; and the house of lords don't do nothin. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
If you are just lookin fer a shot; kewl; I can understand that; but pleeeeese.. yer country; out of all in europe has possibly the worst record on civil rights for the individual. Yet you think you can throw stones at us? Old sins?? How's the inqusition; for starters?? Indians? You; a SPANIARD dares quote to me abuses of Native American INDIANS? The Spanish were here killing the natives first; pal. You guys were the real pro's... Who destroyed the Aztec and Mayan cultures?
LOL.. don't tread on me RAM. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Tell me.. you vote? I mean; do you exercise the franchise?? I do.. I even vote in the furbish little school board elections. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
You ever serve in your countrys armed forces? Ever get shot at? Ever get HIT? How many of your relatives did not come home from a foreign war? Friends?? Neighbors?? What price has your family paid for EUROPES CURRENT FREEDOM?
Yah; I'm an ugly American. Proud of it. Proud of America. Sure; we have some dirty laundry.. and Spains house ain't clean either; nor is anybody else's. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
My arrogance is EARNED. I paid for it. It was pricey; and once earned at such great cost; I tend to guard it closely.
Yep; I'm a patriot. What are you?
Hang
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Originally posted by RAM:
[BAh, hang...BTW...dont brag that much about US intervention in WWII...with NO intervention in WWI there would've been NO WWII...
so maybe you only came to put straight something you didnt fix before.
[/b]
I am admittedly only an ignorant, opportunist descendant of the cast-off dregs of European society, so I need a little help with this one.
So, if we had stayed out of WWI we would not have had to enter WW2 to put straight something we did not fix by actually entering WWI?
If we had stayed out, what would have happened/resulted that would have prevented WW2? What did US involvement in WWI change in this respect?
BTW, I am a strongly isolationist opportunist. I always have been; even when I was in the USAF. Weird, huh?
I'd be real happy just to have all American troops home from EVERYWHERE by this Christmas, never to leave US soil again. Never.
Now DA98, it seems just about everybody keeps telling us we aren't the world's policeman. (I happen to agree with that sentiment.)But am I to understand that you wanted us to come help you toss Franco?
Yet if we support other folks in Civil Wars against murderous Dictatorships, we're sticking our noses in where we don't belong?
No wonder we poor cast-offs are so confused.
Yes, we've supported some pretty bad dictators in our time, too. Opposed some, supported others. I won't argue that.
I just want a little guidance on how you enlightened Europeans want us to pick who to befriend and who to fight.
As I said, I'm for keeping US troops in the US. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 08-02-2000).]
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To return to the original debate raised in General Discussion regarding the Luftwaffe...
The argument on these boards in defense of the Luftwaffe is that they were not fighting for Hitler so much as defending their families from the B17's raining destruction on their homeland. I see this as a reasonable argument. But I see it as one that is still suspect.
Lets examine how the Luftwaffe would be judged by US historians if the Nazi's had won the war. Suppose the US decided that Europe could kiss off. Suppose Britain fell to Sea Lion as planned. No B17's, no 24 hour bombing.
If the Luftwaffe had never been forced defensive, they could have never used the honorable reason of defending loved ones to justify their service for the Nazi regime. The Luftwaffe would have then only be seen as an integral part in the conquering of Europe for a regime that exterminated a people.
I am not attempting to paint German fighter pilots as monsters. But I do believe that just by the fact that they lost the conflict, it is somewhat easier for them to marginalize the weight of their undeniably skillful efforts in the advancement of the Nazi war machine. If they had won, I think that they would have been faced with a much more troublesome reckoning.
In general I see one side on these boards approach Luftwaffe motivation from a fairly later viewpoint when German cities were getting bombed to hell. The other side approaches this debate from an earlier viewpoint, where the Luftwaffe was pure aggressor.
I'd posit a comparision between a successful Luftwaffe and the successful Oppenheimer of the Manhatten Project. I suspect that it would have been easier for Oppenheimer to say he was doing his duty for the US and move on with his life, if his work had ultimately failed. Instead his personal agony did not really begin until after the fruits of his labor had been realized.
In a sense then, the Luftwaffe was spared the worst possibility of a hideous war; the possibility of having been successful.
Because they failed, the case of the Luftwaffe pilot becomes an intriguing story of the human condition. Had they been victorious, reading the same stories would be unplatable because of the larger nightmarish consequences for humanity that would lurk behind every victory, every heroic escape.
I respect many of the Luftwaffe aces. I believe that many did not share the Nazi ideology. I do believe that all were socially irresponsible, but they were also young men driving hot-rods and I understand that. For these reasons I do believe they were lucky to escape Oppenheimer's nightmare, the nightmare of having won.
"Now I've become Death, the destroyer of worlds."
-Hornet
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RUH ROH DOWNTOWN !!, NOW YOUR TALKING LADDIE!!
<Ripsnort does a crazy dance in the middle of his office!!>
No offense, Ram, DT just got my blood flowing like a good all-American!
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You can argye until you are blue in the face what country is better by listing some subjectively valued features, or, worse yet, alleged misdeeds and merits of long-dead people.
One thing that can really give us some comparison is the movement of the people.
Granted, there are lots of people who are trying to get to both european countries and to USA from less prosperous/democratic countries. In both places there are severe immigration restrictions against that kind of people, so the comparisons are meaningless. (You would think that with americans so proud of their forefathers coming here and starting a new life, any one wishing to come here would be granted citizenship right away and admired as a modern-day hero. Not so by far.)
There are much less restrictions for highly educated people (Ph.D and such )and key business or welthy people.
Many more of such people elect to come to US from Europe rather then other way around despite lots of things that are worse in USA then in other countries. That is the only reasonabe proof of USA superiority in my eyes.
Of course the USA owes its superiority to those same people who come here and do things they were not able to do in their land of birth and that born americans won't/can't do due to their decadence and bad education.
Each one of those who stayed and of those who returned would tell you what considerations were most important to them.
miko--
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Originally posted by Hangtime:
LOL RAM.. three words.
GENERALISSIMO FRANCISCO FRANCO
A Nazi. I seem to recall Americans of note had some small involvement in funding his opposition in your civil war.
Yes a small involvement. And a monstrous bigger one in the 50's to SUPPORT HIM because he was an ANTICOMMUNIST DICTATOR. Butthat involvement in the 50's was a SUPPORTING ONE. YOU, americans, SUPPORTED A FASCIST REGIME because it was anticommunist.
Tell me again ,do I need to thank you sooo much about that? about 40 years of dictatorship that only subsisted because US supported the existance of Franco's regime?
Oh, thank you, then Mr Eisenhower. Maybe if you never came to Spain, then Franco would have lasted for 5 more years instead of 25.
RAM; you know dick about America; or our politics.just the same you know about europe's history, seems.
All you have to go on is Baywatch and Scary Movie, or the propoganda pushed at you during your socialist/fascist education.
Never saw Baywatch more than twice. Never believed what I saw in that series. Spanish girls are way better than american, that fer sure. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
FYI England does not vote in her monarch; and the house of lords don't do nothin. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I can recall at least 2 monarchs who thought as you do.
They both ended with no head.
If you are just lookin fer a shot; kewl; I can understand that; but pleeeeese.. yer country; out of all in europe has possibly the worst record on civil rights for the individual. Yet you think you can throw stones at us? Old sins?? How's the inqusition; for starters?? Indians? You; a SPANIARD dares quote to me abuses of Native American INDIANS? The Spanish were here killing the natives first; pal. You guys were the real pro's... Who destroyed the Aztec and Mayan cultures?
UH, yeah. But I dont brag about my country's past. But about its present and future.
You do brag about US past since 1776.
Tell me.. you vote?
I do-Forced to,as I live in the Basque country. And damned proud I do vote (spanish readers will understand why do I say "forced to", but I wont dig on it)
. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
You ever serve in your countrys armed forces? Ever get shot at? Ever get HIT?Tried to get into Air Forces. Eye sight on right eye lacking, rejected.
The other questions are rethorical. Of course, answer to both is "no"
How many of your relatives did not come home from a foreign war? Friends?? Neighbors?? What price has your family paid for EUROPES CURRENT FREEDOM?
Not in a foreign war but on a "domestic" thing. My granddad dissapeared (in year 2000 we still dont know what happened to him) in 1950 because he said Franco's regime was a shame for freedom. He fought for the Republican side in Civil war and had some problems to find work.
One night in 1950 the police broke into my grandpa's house, where he was sleeping with his wife, and his 3 little kids, and they got him.
Still never heard anything else about him.
He didnt die in a war. For sure he did die for freedom. And I am damned proud of him and being his grandson.
My arrogance is EARNED. I paid for it. It was pricey; and once earned at such great cost; I tend to guard it closely.
Yep; I'm a patriot. What are you?
Hang
I am a 22 year old guy who has a lot to learn, who still needs to live a lot and who wants to keep his ideals up to your age.
And I hope I do.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 08-02-2000).]
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LOL RAM.. good on you. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I was cringing; typing that post; knowing of yer grandfather. He did die in a war for freedom.. your family knows of sacrafice. And Pain.
I salute you.. and wish you no ill will.
Hang
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Very few of us, at age 50, would recognize ourselves at age 20 and vice versa.
The Real World has a way of rounding your sharp edges.
I wish you luck.
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 08-02-2000).]
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Nath... You are not up on your history bud, Better study up alittle more. US sent more materials to USSR than we did to England, not just p39s. The only thing that saved Stalins bellybutton was US help and the Russian Winter period.
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Originally posted by Toad:
(CUT)
I'd be real happy just to have all American troops home from EVERYWHERE by this Christmas, never to leave US soil again. Never.
(CUT)
As I said, I'm for keeping US troops in the US. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
WOW,
TOAD FOR PRESIDENT !!!!!
I love you man (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Enlighten me craven... did the US supply enough equipment for Russia's 10 million + troops? I doubt it...
Actually what saved Russia was its superiority in numbers of poeple and equipment that it manufactured itself such as the T34 which wasn't American. Name one American rifle that was used by the Russians en masse.
Ships weren't a major factor in the East, nor were aircraft for that matter... Germany had superiority in the air.
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 08-03-2000).]
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Originally posted by Nath-BDP:
Enlighten me craven... did the US supply enough equipment for Russia's 10 million + troops? I doubt it...
Literally hundreds of thousands of Trucks, Halftracks, Radio sets (something very needed in USSR), Planes (Spitfires, Hurricanes, P39s, P63s, etc), Tanks (Valentines, Stuarts, even M4s), GP things (clothes, hand weapons, ammunition, field artillery, etc)...
I call that a decisive support.
Actually what saved Russia was its superiority in numbers of poeple and equipment that it manufactured itself such as the T34 which wasn't American.
russian industry only could start to produce bigger numbers of equipment than germans in 1943, when their ecenomy turned into full swing.
BTW What saved USSR was nothing but Hitler stupidity. Had German army's generals let alone to do their work,Moscow would have been overrun in october 1941.
Name one American rifle that was used by the Russians en masse.
M1 Garand.
Ships weren't a major factor in the East, nor were aircraft for that matter... Germany had superiority in the air.
I think I am misunderstnading this...you are telling me that Germny had technical or numeric superiority on the East front?
Because none of both were true from 1943 onwards (because 190D9s and Me262 were rarely used in the east front)
and the numbes of planes involved in the east front in 1944/45 were odds of 30/1 in Soviet favor.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 08-03-2000).]
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Originally posted by Nath-BDP:
Actually what saved Russia was its superiority in numbers of poeple and equipment that it manufactured itself such as the T34 which wasn't American. (edited 08-03-2000).]
Hey, Nath, over in that Tanker Talk thread in vehicles somebody said:
"All in all one starts wondering why did the American designers do so bad in WWII designs...so early as 1928 they had a prototype of a medium tank (with a revolutionary new suspension), designed by Walther Christie that made up to 70! mph on road and and 30! on cross country...Patton and Chaffee themselves supported the design by Christie...but he fell out of favour when he refused to make certain changes to bring it up to the official specification made by the US army.
Later that prototype and a licence was purchased by the Soviet Union...it was used on BT light tanks,and it finally ended being
the suspension used in the T-34, the one that gave that tank its legendary cross-road performance."
But then, the Russkies claim they invented baseball, too, as I recall. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
NASO:
Thanks for the vote but I can never be a politician anywhere...I have some integrity left!
...and don't forget, I'd like those troops home NEVER to leave home again. That means you guys gotta sweep up after yourselves from now on, no exceptions. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I think I am misunderstnading this...you are telling me that Germny had technical or numeric superiority on the East front?
Because none of both were true from 1943 onwards (because 190D9s and Me262 were rarely used in the east front)
Germany had air superiority on the eastern front.
(http://www.mindspring.com/~nathownsj00/table.jpg)
"Comment:
The most commonly quoted source on this matter is Ernst Obermaier's Die Ritterkreuztriiger
der Luftwaffe, Band 1 Jagdflieger 1939-1945. According to Obermaier, the German
fighter pilots claimed a total of 70,000 aerial victories during World War 11- 25,000 against the "West" and 45,000 on the Eastern Front. At the same time, the German Flak (AAA
batteries) reported the shooting down of more than 20,000 enemy aircraft.
According to the same source, 16,400 German day fighter aircraft were lost (total
loss, i.e. aircraft with more than 60% damage) as the result of hostile action during the war
years. 8,500 German day fighter pilots were killed, 2, 700 went missing or were taken
prisoners and 9, lOO were injured.
Different total loss figures for the RAF and USAAF are published frequently. Less
known are the loss statistics for the Soviet Air Force. The so far most reliable figures are
given in the book Red Stars, recently published in Finland. According to this, the combat
losses of the Soviet Air Force in the Second World War amounted to 46, lOO aircraft. Over
18,400 Soviet officer pilots were killed in action and another 20,600 went missing in
action or were taken prisoners.
Previously, the German author HeinzAF Schmidt (in Sowjetische Flugzeuge) put the
total number of individual combat missions undertaken by the Soviet Air Force between
June 22, 1941 and YE Day 1945 at 3,223,000, thus giving the total loss rate 1.4% for the
whole war, compared with the loss figures given in Red Star,\,. (As a comparison, the total
loss rate for the RAP Bomber Command between July 1940 and YE Day 1945, was 2.9% )
Not included in the table above are the results of the German night fighters, who
claimed to have downed a total of 5,729 Western Allied aircraft, the true figure probably
being around 5,000.
This leads to the conclusion that on average, eight Western Allied aircraft were shot
down for every ten aerial victories claimed by German day fighter pilots, while the ratio
on the Eastern Front was probably a bit smaller, due to the fact that the major part of the air
combats in this war theater took part over Soviet held territory."
After Bodenplatte most of Germanys airpower in the west, what remained of it, was transferred to the east to try and halt the Soviet advance before they passed the river Oder. Contained most definatly with D9s and later on 262s were used against Soviet ground operations.
BTW What saved USSR was nothing but Hitler stupidity. Had German army's generals let alone to do their work,Moscow would have been overrun in october 1941.
Hitler's genrals did their job as fast as they could, it wasn't Hitlers fault they were 'behind schedule' and couldn't take Moscow, Germany had too little numbers in troops and too long a ways to bring supplies in to reinforce their army.
Also the Russian winter slowed the Germans down but the spring thaw was worse, even checked the Soviets. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
p.s. Thats nice toad, and where do you think the US and Soviets got their jet and rocket ideas and space program from? ;p
------------------
Geschwaderkommodore JG 54
"Grünherz"
(http://www.mindspring.com/~nathownsj00/JG54Sig.jpg)
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 08-03-2000).]
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Well, Americans are still ugly opportunists.
<gets the thread back on track>
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
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I think you people are arguing the wrong things, USA is great.... saved a lot of freedom for the globe... but the USA started with people no one else wanted and in a lot of cases still is... America should be the pride of the world because it is populated by people from all over the world... flawed? you bet, but we try to do the right things.. and some one in your gene pool is over here enjoying themselves and helping us make it what it is....
doc
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Nate...Whittle? Goddard? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Nah, you're right...the Germans did it ALL. Every last little bit...no other nation deserves any credit for any thing. From sliced bread to aftershave, the rest of us are humbled..
Happy now? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Hey Santa, I've lost Volume XIV of "Danish War Heroes of WW2". Any copies left over there?
It made such an nice set with my 22 Volume Leather Bound set of "Altruism: Danish Contributions to World Society".
Sorry...that was really an "oppportunist" shot, wasn't it?
FLAAAAAAAAMMMMMMMEEEEEFEST! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 08-03-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 08-03-2000).]
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LOL.. I'm tellin yah...
You DON'T wanna piss Toad off. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Nath the pic you post shows that Geman a/c shot down more russian planes than the number they lost themselves.
Oh well I dont have the numbers of Aircraft lost on the Poland invasion...its incredible the air superiority that Poland enjoyed in 1939. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Originally posted by Nath-BDP:
Hitler's genrals did their job as fast as they could, it wasn't Hitlers fault they were 'behind schedule' and couldn't take Moscow, Germany had too little numbers in troops and too long a ways to bring supplies in to reinforce their army.
Also the Russian winter slowed the Germans down but the spring thaw was worse, even checked the Soviets. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Go run for your books and read the chapter called "Hitler's greatests blunders: Kiev".
Hoth and Guderian were running at full speed to Moscow when Hitler Forced them to turn towards south to entrap Kiev's poket. There Hitler won a big big victory but maybe he lost the war. When the panzers started rolling again towards moscow it was late october. The rest of the story is known.
So maybe you want to revise your posts. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Naso...LOL! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) you cant quote me, dont worry (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) no need to hide my name (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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RAM.. the world of 'what if' on the eastern front can get lost in a quagmire of hindsight.
A couple of things do stand out.. and I'm of the poor opinion that the Russians woulda taken back every square inch of their land with or without help from Hitler or the USA.
Why?? Stalin. An egotistical madman with a deep and abiding hatred for the Germans and Hitler in particular. He had at his disposal the largest deepest pockets of all the 'allied' powers when it came to raw materials and manpower. He lost two years repositioning his industry west of the Urals; and during that time the US support effort merely assisted him in holding fast at Stalingrad.
The Russians at Stalingrad held on there with incredible losses.. an insane way to fight a war.. Stalingrad was a Russian diddly YOU to Hitler writ LARGE in blood. More than a Million Russians died there.. hundreds of thousands of civilians perished. "Not one step back!" Stalin was making it clear that no more of his cities would fall to the Hun.. if they wanted 'em the Germans were gonna have to be willing to spend men at a prodigious rate.. and tho Hitler tried; pulling divisons from as far away as western France; it did him no good.
The weather and Hitler both contributed to the German failure to capture Moscow; but the Russian tenacity at Stalingrad put the handwriting on the wall. With bitter fierce resistance and a willingness to spend troops and scorch the earth they lost the Russians insured an eventual victory and the ultimate German defeat.
Even had Hitler gained Stalingrad; and hence Moscow; it would have only made the Russian retibition more terrible when the came back across the Urals... and Stalin was already postioned and equipped for his counterattack in the winter/spring of 43.
Chuikov's counterattack handily destroyed Manheims' relief army while still holding Polus at Stalingrad. The entire German 6th army was annilated. Over 700,00 men; their equipment... gone.
The US assistance gained Stalin a few months.. even that is debatable; but certainly no more. And all the american boots and trucks mattererd not a whit when balanced against the Russian mindset. Had Germany protected herself against the Russian and American invaders with the same tenacity the Russins showed at Stalingrad; then the war would have gone a year longer... and Berlin mighta been the first city to see the Bomb.
IMHO. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
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Toad:
<places tongue in cheek>
Ehm, no, you pissing in the wind to win a numbers games opportunist dweeb American of the century.
I guess some Danes killed American GI's, and did it with a smile on their face. Others killed German soldiers with just about the same show of affection.
Ok, let me state this quite clearly, so that even you, a slow dumb Americans can get it into your stupid little ignorant head: Denmark hasn't been a powerful country for hundreds of years. It has a pitiful army, a very small sized population and little international influence. During WWII, Denmark capitulated after only a few days, after Germany massed their forces on the south border. Resistance fighters continued however; I have family members who were in it.
So, we do not have tons and tons of war heroes: Nor do we have tons of war monster baby rapers either. And, quite frankly, I don't give a toejam. I do not take credit for what other men and women have done; not the negative sides, and not the positive sides. You seem to do, but only on the latter.
And also, about contributions to the world, you seem to forget there was a time before the US even existed, when basically 90% of all thoughts and ideas, if not inventions, came to be. The US was smart enough to accept the European intelligentsia fleeing from war ton Europe, and they gave you a technological edge. A German gave your space program legs to stand on, another fellow called Einstein helped out on some minor physics issues, and so forth.
But, to give you one influencial Dane that had some impact on WWII and science in general; Niels Bohr. To give you a philosopher; Sĝren Kierkegaard. These are just people who happened to be born in the same general geographical area as I was. Only idiots, or stupid dumb American opportunistic dweebs who are one bit short of a byte would take credit for the works someone else has done, for the only reason of being born in close proximity within certain legal boundaries.
Toad, tell me you're not this much of an idiot.
Or regurgitate the bull manure you spewed and prove it again.
<finger>
<replaces tongue to where it ought to be>
Man, I love a good flame war (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
------------------
StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 08-03-2000).]
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LOL!
That was TOO EASY!
Almost ripped the rod right outta my hands!I'm going to mount this one over the fireplace!!!
Way-Cool Mr. Santa getting tight! Over a couple of one-liners!
Please tell me you're not so able to dish it out but so unable to take any at all?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Toad deftly reels; snaps the rod down, yanks back again, drops the tip; cranks the reel...
"GOT 'EM!! ..GET THE GAFF HANG!"
Hang grabs the gaff; leans over the side, and swings... *THUNK* He yanks upward and inward; and though the air comes a glistening...
"Well.. wouldya look at that... a fargin canned HAM!"
Hang and Toad look at the thrashing Tin of Pork rolling about on the deck. Hang starts laffin..
"Dammo; the porker put up a heluva fight.. thought he'd be bigger after all that fuss. Think he's gonna measure the limit??"
Toad sighs; shakes his head.
"Nah. Too scrawny. Besides, I had to register the can opener last year. Cops stopped by last week and confiscated it. Toss the bugger back. Mebbe he'll be bigger next month."
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Man what a load of bull and over-inflated egos I see here. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
My 2 cents on this...
1) America inventor of Democracy : Go to your local library and read some more. That the US has a Democracy that works better than previous ones, perhaps. Wait another 500 years and see what your great-great grandkids say about the US democracy at that point.
2)Russia wouldve defeated Germany (or viceversa): I dont believe the Germans couldve conquered Russia completely, nor do I think the Russians couldve taken on Germany alone. Russia needed (in fact, demanded desperately) that the allies open a second front. Think about it.. if Russia had been on its own it wouldve re-equipped itself too slowly and too late to push back the German army during the winter.
3) U.S. being world cop: Heck, they do make the best donuts, so why not? I'd rather let the US keep the nukes and policing policies than to let China or France or South Africa do it. Fact is, so far so good (well, at least the world is not a radioactive ball in space). I do disagree with many of the US foreign policy, mainly the fact that there is no intervention or NATO-UN actions without US giving a green light (pun: $$$)... and US will not do that unless there is a profitable/image gain for it.
Let me remind you of the FIRST lesson my International Relations teacher, an 80 year old guy that sat in the U.N. meetings for over 20 years: "All nations act on their own self-interest".
Apply that to all the arguments you have here.
World War 2: US entered ONLY after it was attacked. But before that, the lend-lease programs and other stuff it did before joining the Allies was done because it benefited them. Lend-Lease? See how many bases around the world did the U.K. traded for US Lend-Lease?.. traded them for about 50 years. Those bases were INVALUABLE to the US during the Cold War. Not to mention that, in the eyes of the leaders of those times, the most militaristic nations in history (Japan, Germany, Italy) were literally storming the world. It most certainly freaked them out.
Now, as far as this part: "Thanks America for stabilizing southern America. God bless CIA intervention there, in defence of freedom and democracy."
and the list of names posted above that were about South America... I can only say: "All nations act on their own self-interest"
The US has literally SCREWED, and I mean ROYALLY screwed the economic development of most south american countries during and after the Cold War. I am from Colombia, and I personally dont appreciate the US taking away Panama (which was part of Colombia) away and making it an independent country just so the US didnt have to deal with an established nation to build the Canal, but with a newly placed, puppet government that would allow them to build the canal at the minimum expense and GREAT benefits from it. And I wont even go on talking about the current problems in my country which are a direct result of "acts of self-interest" the US did during the Cold War. Heck, times change, what is done is done! All we can hope for now is that those mistakes arent repeated.
I understand why most US folks here are passionate about their nation's "great achievements". And i dont hold anything against that, but to blatantly scream and glorify yourself and your own kind on things your ancestors did ("All nations act on their own self-interest") is plain sick and quite pathetic imho.
You really think the UN, the US or anyone else for that matter wouldve aided Kuwait if it was a watermelon-producing country (aka, no OIL)? My, I'm sure Tibet wouldve LOVED to have such "moral incentive" to have the international commmunity free it after it was invaded. Shows you why all presidents have sternly denied the Lama any official audience (I think it was Clinton who spoke with him in private, though no political things were discussed as far as I recall). There is no profit in helping Tibet.
So you US folks bathing in false glory better learn that no country has ever done anything for moral purposes. Not the Vatican, not the US, not Monaco has ever, and will never do anything because "its the right thing to do".
"All the world is a stage" , and each nation is an actor. Pass me the program pamphlet, I want to see if the butler did it! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Go run for your books and read the chapter called "Hitler's greatests blunders: Kiev".
Hoth and Guderian were running at full speed to Moscow when Hitler Forced them to turn towards south to entrap Kiev's poket. There Hitler won a big big victory but maybe he lost the war. When the panzers started rolling again towards moscow it was late october. The rest of the story is known.
Army group north ---> Leningrad, Baltic states
Army group center 55 divisions ---> Moscow
Army group south ---> Keiv, Stalingrad
Army group center was on the outskirts of Moscow in October, it never assisted in the capture of Keiv. In September and October rain-mud and fatigue slowed the Germans.
Also, after destroying Smolensk on 5 August, Hoth's panzers were ordered north to Leningrad and Guderian to Kiev, leaving Moscow to the infantry, having panzers they still wouldn't have gotten to Moscow in time.
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Well said, TAC.
To the "ugly americans":
One think i understand talking with my RL american friends (yes i have american friends, i'm not a racist like the "ugly US man"), is that the medium US citizen have a small knowledge of the rest of the world, even if related with US interests, and this knowledge is in some way distorted in favour of the "we are the best, the rest is toejam" way of thinking.
I know, this is necessary when you need to control a nation (Mussolini and Hitler do the same at their times), and prepare it to wage war for your interests.
USA is a nation always in war, even now, and the government need to have citizen firmly believing they are right and that god is on their side, and the education system and more generally the culture orientation have to work in that direction.
I want to share some information with people that wish to use the brain by themself, regarding my country, and believe me, these are facts.
Just after the WWI, the economy in Italy was really knocked down, and many of poor people, mostly from southern region, move out from Italy to search for survival, most of them move to the "America" (as WE called it, talking 'bout ancestors (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)), contributing greatly for rising of your economy with low price workers and exporting in the process a social phenomenon called "mafia" (see later in the post).
Our country was on the knees, when a strange man whitout hairs, but with a strong personality took the power in 1923 and start a new government, based on a particulary form called "fascismo", he start saying we can be strong enough to walk on our feet and try to isolate our economy to avoid foreign influence, and strange to say, this worked!!.
The price was freedom.
I mean, in that time you can do everithink you want but to opposite in real terms to the government and the dominant culture.
At the same time, the fascism push the attention to expantion of the country, concentrating to the military issues and a colonial foreign policy.
As a medium citizen of that time knew, we colonize Libya and Etiopia to "share our civilization", and we conquer Albania because the "legitimate government" ask for our help.
A little study of the propaganda techniques will help you to understand the thinks you see and listen and read on mass media.
This recall me in some way the actual situation of USA, think:
you have the fascists and defend theyr rights to think, but you still attack and forbid the communism, right or wrong it will be.
you go and wage war in well selected nations because they "need" your help.
Naturally the best friend of this fascist nation was the nation where a political leader mutuate some ideas from fascism, creating a new type, called "Nationalsocialism", in fact they become soon allied, founding the "Axis Rome-Berlin" (is from this the name now common Axis).
The "Society of nations" started a blockade of the Axis economy, trying to avoid the expantion policy both nations acted.
So what we have?
Two large economies, one expanding the other stagnating coming to a crunch.
Soon or later war will explode.
And did.
Meanwhile in Italy the people was convinced that the powers of West countryes where pushing for destroy our freedom and was almost ready to follow Mussolini where he want to go, he bring some richness and wellfare, confrontating to the past, so he worked well.
When Hitler started the game, Mussolini after a while, with doubt (cause he know we was'nt ready to war), follow.
The guys in uniform found themselves fighting a war they believe was a right war, but with old tools, and poor commanders.
They act well, in Africa and in Russia, even with they pityful armament.
And i repeat, they believe was right, because theyr culture said this was right (this for the "Luftwaffe question").
The morality it's always relative of the culture.
We fight, we was losing, people was starving, and start thinking somethink was wrong, maybe waging war is'nt so good.
When Allied forces (Allied forces, not only US forces, baby) entered Sicily, we feel war was lost, and Germans take in forces (for theyr interest, of course) the defence of the country.
One of the best allies of the Allied Forces was mafia (here they appear again), helping with intelligence and civilian control, and taking in this way big control over the later political local government.
When 8 september 1943, the king come to terms and sign the armistice with the allied, Germans take control of the entire country, and start to act as they used to do in occupied countrys.
This push the northern citizen to organize themselfs to resist the Germans, and to found the "Resistenza", civilian forces that fight the Germans.
Meanwhile the Germans put Mussolini on chief of a new founded government, called "Repubblica di Salò", from the small town where it formed, followed from people still believing in Mussolini.
This was the darkest hour we live, fighting brother vs brother in a civil war we are still remembering with pain.
And we had two armies too, fighting on both sides.
Meanwhile in the resistenza two souls show up:
one near to liberalism, the other near to the comunism (before Mussolini we had a strong communist party).
When war finished our country was destroyed, the economy was non-existent.
In the south the control was granted by mafia, but in the north the thinks where different, the communist party was strong, helped from Russia.
Italy was on the edge of the West block, extending in mediterranean, in few words: strategic.
This meant, in change to be "defended" from the child-eaters communists, we had to reserve spaces for US (i said US, not Nato) bases, like the one near my house.
We decided to have a new government, a republic.
Near to the elections of the new founded government, the USA start giving hide help to the liberalist partyes, and with help of the mafia-controlled votes of the south part, a US friendly government was founded.
And here start a new colonialism, the economical-cultural one.
We become the best allies of the States, our loved friend.
This situation lasted for 40 years, with government changing in appareance, but doing the same, just like a South American "Democracy".
We become rich, but we develope an economical debt, really scaring, and an economical dipendence from States, like a knife in our neck.
In the sixties, like in the rest of the western countryes, a new thinking started, youngs and factory workers start to ask for theyr rights, and when the government react violently, start to fight.
In the early '70s we was near to a revolution, but somethink happen...
Bombs.
In the middle of the people, with lot of deaths.
Since then we knew the more "Hot" left guys, the "brigate rosse" terrorist organization (self called revolutionary, but they lost, you know? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)), used to shot precisely to political targets, killing precise key persons, why they now start killing innocent people?.
As we know now, was'nt the brigate rosse, was the right, fascist terrorist organization, with help of Italian secret services, and CIA (another nice gift from USA, always active in Italy since the war ended) that put the bombs.
But at that time we ignore it, so the brigate rosse and generally the left pushing was disbanded, and the government gain other 15 years of "stability".
Then the wall falls...
Mafia is still strong...
CIA is still here...
Bases are still active...
Do you still think your nation do this to save us?
Or maybe was to save herself ass?
Maybe we cut be grateful to have been liberated by the Germans and the fascists, but do you think we have to payback for more generations?
It's not enough?
Cant we start to be equals, in a community of equals, or we have to be controlled and occupied forever?
And you think we have to like it?
There are two other thinks i want recall:
one has happened in 1980 when a civilian aircraft was downed by a missile fired suspectly by an US fighter (81 deads).
The USA denyed responsability, and with help of Italian airforce they delete proves of their operations and the fight occurred with a Lybian fighter in the same moment in the same zone, in fact the US forces where trying to down the Geddhafi's airplane, similar to the DC-9 of Itavia.
The other is more recent in Cermis, when an amazinhunk pilot of marines play low level flight, 20 people died in the process, but who care, they where european.
An "ugly american" is more important than 20 europeans, in fact he believed to be an hero, "for bringing back the plane to base he deserve a medal".
Being an "ugly american", nationalist, arrogant and ignorant, gain hate to you and your nation, and soon or later you will be presented the bill.
Try to be gentle, respectful, open minded to different cultures and history, and you will gain respect and an honorable name.
The world is bigger than you think, open your eyes and look around, the entire world is OUR nation, mine and yours, and is beatiful in his differences, there is no place better than another.
Cya
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Nath you have a strange definition of air superiority. Kill stats don't mean squat in a real war. The idea is to blow up the enemy's stuff on the ground while protecting your own stuff.
In the last two years of the war, the Luftwaffe could provide only incomplete fighter cover for their ground forces, and could only offer close air support on a tiny scale.
Meanwhile Red sturmoviks and dive bombers were everywhere. Sure they took heavy losses, but they hurt the Wehrmacht many times worse than the Luftwaffe hurt the Red Army. That's air superiority. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 08-04-2000).]
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Originally posted by StSanta:
Well, Americans are still ugly opportunists.
<gets the thread back on track>
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
LOL, Santa calls the world ugly opportunists!(Remember, American Indians are the real 'Americans')
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Hangtime; you've been baited, taken up, cleansed and fed to the dogs ages ago (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif). You even took the bait and started a whole new thread (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Missed ya in MA the last few days? You taking a break?
Toad, great fun <S!>
That B17 vs ponies fight yesterday was awesome. I sorta lost SA when jumping turrets (not a buff driver) and then ya got me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 08-04-2000).]
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Originally posted by Nath-BDP:
Army group north ---> Leningrad, Baltic states
Army group center 55 divisions ---> Moscow
Army group south ---> Keiv, Stalingrad
Army group center was on the outskirts of Moscow in October, it never assisted in the capture of Keiv. In September and October rain-mud and fatigue slowed the Germans.
Also, after destroying Smolensk on 5 August, Hoth's panzers were ordered north to Leningrad and Guderian to Kiev, leaving Moscow to the infantry, having panzers they still wouldn't have gotten to Moscow in time.
Then tell me why the advance on moscow was stalled for a month when Guderian was detached to the South, and why it recovered its full momentum when they restarted the advance on Moscow, only to stall in last days of November.
(BTW an EXACTLY identical thing happened in Case Blue, when the 4th Panzer Army was moving towars a nearly undefended Stalingrad, Hitler stopped them and ordered them to assist the attack on the south...only to find that when they reached the combat zone, the battle was over. When they returned the advance on Stalingread there was a full Russian infantry army there...)
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Bad weather :P
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Naso,
You seem to have justified all the bad choices your countrymen made... but the USA, evil empire... give me a break.. talk about American pride, your unabashed nationalism is a cancer... hell half your relatives probaly live in New York anyway... did they become ugly swine Americans when they got off the boat? The only reason we have bases in Italy is to make sure the "puppet" Italian goverment doesn't nationalise the Ferrari factory..... and restrict exports...
PS; you got your revenge with the Fiat!
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Oh my Naso, you even managed to fit Ustica in there.
Just put it in plain English: Anyone who thinks Amurrica's foreign policy is ruled by a sense of moral uprightness is living in a fantasy world way on the other side of the Carter Administration. People all over the world have good reason to dislike the US's meddling.
On the other hand, I would point out to our old-world colleagues that nationality is a polysemous term: what it is to be an Amurrican is generically different from what it is to be, say, an Italian. The difference I'm getting at is that American identity is not associated with a culture or even a geographical region, except in the most loose sense imaginable. I'm idealizing the situation a little, but I feel this is the essence of this difference.
A couple examples to get at what I'm saying:
Milan and New York are both big cities that have a significant portion of the population being born elsewhere. The term "Milanese", and all the cultural baggage associated with it, I gather applies to a very small slab of the immigrants. "New Yorker", on the other hand, is probably more often applied to people not born and and raised anywhere near NEw York. The same for California: my understanding is that the majority of California residents came here from somewhere else (another part of the US or overseas). Whatever else they may be, they're Californians; and while lifelong residents such as myself may occasionally boast of being "natives", in practical cultural and social terms, the difference between "resident" and "native" is nil.
So what am I getting at? We are unimpressed by Yankee-bashing that seeks to point out that so much of what we're proud of we owe to immigrants, to persons not born to Amurrican parents. Hell, that's what we're proud of. Enrico Fermi is as much an American as I am, but he's a hell of a lot more Italian.
But again, that's the problem. If all that makes us "Amurricans" is our citizenship, then it's that much easier to construct a national identity around the State. We never went through the same trauma of WWII that Europe did, and consequently we don't have the same aversion to fascism or its supporters. We still revere Henry Ford, who applied the assembly line to automobiles and built a great industry that made him rich, and, in the 1930s, allowed him to support "NAtionalist Political Movements" in far-off places like Germany. So, through the mythology of democracy and individualism, we fill the "National Identity" vacuum with some late 19th-century notion of "Patriotism" and convince ourselves that we really do have a voice in Government, and that the US is a moral force in the world. The government does its best -- and nobody in the world will doubt that the US government can be damn effective at getting what it wants -- to keep us fat, happy, and rich, and as long as it does so, we couldn't care less about the price of eggs in China, or a day's wages in the Dominican Republic. Just stay out of jail.
Rambling? Contradictory? Sure. And I hope everyone in this little discussion will be pleased to find something there to agree with, and something to be pissed off about. That's America.
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Santa,
Does this mean that you CAN take it as well as you CAN dish it out?
So we can go on baiting each other in a cheerful, tongue-in-cheek fashion?
After all, I enjoy your America-bashing! I'm the isolationist, remember? You help my cause; I've got two sons of military service age.
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Maddog, you miss the point (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Dinger, you got the point (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
My long post was intended to show a different point of view by a different cultural subject, is'nt the absolute true.
Real world is colourful, not white and black people like maddog seem to believe.
You say "unabashed" (what's mean?) nationalism, you're wrong, i am the less nationalist you can imagine, and...
no i dont have any relative in USA, but some good friend, Italian and WASP.
Last, i dont want any revenge, i am just pissed off loking at people living with eyes and hears closed, they damage the entire world community.
Dinger, i knew what you say, these are concept i already understand, but sometime in discussion you need to enphatize and exagerate arguments to point attention on it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif).
I will never stop to push people to ask theirself if they need somethink else to know, to collect more information on everythink, knowledge is the best weapon we have to defend ourselves from the big brother to come, red or blue it will be.
Speaking about italian people's feelings during the fascism, i was pointing the fact they where sure to be right, like the allied soldiers, the germans soldiers, and the US soldiers fighting in Vietnam or the russians fighting in Afghanistan.
Like the people saying "we are the force of good in this world, the others are evil unless they think like us", like the ugly american.
And quoting Dinger :
Rambling? Contradictory? Sure. And I hope everyone in this little discussion will be pleased to find something there to agree with, and something to be pissed off about.
I will add: in any case, something to think about
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Toad:
Of course (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
This thread and others like it are great fun and an opportunity to show off one's skills in insults and mad ramblings (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
It's great fun, and I must admit you American opportunist isolationist patriotic gun toting right wing Christian fanatics upholders of morality are going a good job (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
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Dinger:
Excellent post that more succintly and eloquently expresses what I mean with ugly American than I can do myself (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
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Santa,
Great!
Well, you have sparked a minor
interest in Danish history and I've been doing a little reading.
One thing I haven't found though is the population of Denmark just before the war. You mentioned it was a small country, but I haven't found any data for that time period.
It's just over 5 million now, right? What was it back then?
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Toad: yep, right now it is about 5.3 million, or 1.4 percent of the EU population (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). Of these, around 6.8% are immigrants/refugees.
In 1950 (closest date to the war I can find) it was around 4.2 million. Removing some of the babyboomers and we have something like 4 million or so.
Projected size in 2040 is 6 million.
Weather generally sucks here; we have 9 months of rain, wind and cold and then (if we are lucky) a few months of good summer weather (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Very well developed social security system, free universities and roads as well as medical care. Huge taxes; around 41% income or so and an additional 25% sales tax.
Pitiful armed forces. Our navy, which once dominated the region a few hundred years ago has been dismantled and consists of a few light vessels and four outdated submarines. Air force of around 90 updated F-16A's and some C130's. Pseudo conscription army (they didn't want me, for instance (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)). Tough gun control laws, but in terms of punishment for crime, we're on the lenient side, with life meaning like 12 or 14 years or something like that. No huge crime problem or problems with pollution. Overall similar to Holland with a rather "allowing" view on things.
Overbureaucratized, thanks to the bloody social democrats (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Nice, relatively safe country in which is is almost impossible to get rich due to taxes and prices of living. Rather big and strong government, but a much more open closer-to-the-roots one than in the US. Easier to administer a small democracy, I guess (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Sportswise; soccer main sport, as it should be (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
And, of course, part of the allied opportunist NATO.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
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I've been torn between posting in this thread or just keeping my mouth shut and letting you all duke it out over what's what, and who's right and who's wrong. i don't know how applicable my viewpoint is on all this, hell i don't even know where this thread is going but i feel i must say a few things.
First of all, i am in the U.S. Navy, i've been in for over 6 years and will probably make a career out of it. I've been stationed on a ship out of florida for about 5 years and been on 3 6-month deployments. 2 to the Med, and 1 to the Arabian Gulf (Persian Gulf to some). In these 3 deployments i have been to many countries and had the pleasure to meet many different cultures (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Some of the experiences I have had in other countries i will treasure for my entire life, some i would rather forget. I have been to the ancient city of "Petra" in the country of Jordan, and have seen the Pyramids in Egypt. I have seen poverty in some countries that makes me realize how lucky i am to be an "American" My first time in Italy, about 20 of my shipmates and I helped paint, and do minor repairs to an Orphanage that was in need of help. The joy of the children living there as we played with them after we were done i will never forget. In Cape Town South Africa, I met some of the friendliest people i have ever had the pleasure of meeting. Before we pulled in to port many of us were concerned over the stories you hear of the race difficulties in the country and we were concerned on how that would ffect our stay there. I never saw any evidence of it there. Could it be that where we were didn't have a problem? sure, but it was a great time, regardless. In Morocco, i had the distinct pleasure of being hounded by an individual who wanted to be my "guide" through the city, and despite many of my polite refusals, refused to take no for an answer. When i finally had to be rude and say "just get away from me" i was told " f**k you , you stinking American! i hope Sadaam Hussien Kills you all!" nice guy huh?
Cartegna/Malaga/Tormelinas(sp, sorry RAM, and the rest of the Spanish flyers, i cannot remember how to spell them) are some of the most beautiful places to visit i have seen, and the people were always kind, and friendly to us "ugly Americans"
I have spent Christmas in Trieste, Italy (damn it was cold but i learned how to Ski there!), and I spent the turn of the Millenium in Naples, Italy (nice fireworks for sure) I spent July 4th of 1996 at sea, 2 days from home and our fireworks display was a guy on another ship with us shooting flares off the helicopter deck. (July 4th is one of our most important Holidays)
I guess what i am trying to get at in all of this rambling is that no matter where you go, you have "decent" people, as well as "ugly" people. It doesn't matter where you are from, or what your beliefs are, we are all products of our society, and how we are raised by our parents. Has the U.S. government made mistakes? yes of course they have, but so has Every government in the history of the world, for no one is perfect, and no one will ever be. For anyone to stereotype and entire country/race/whatever as "ugly" or "good" would be silly, and if my being proud to be an American, and for me to be Glad that i was born in this country makes me an "ugly american" in your eyes, so be it. You have a right to your opinion, but so do I.
P.S. Naso, the tradgedy of the american pilot clipping that wire and killing all those people was horrible, and my heart goes out to all the families that were affected by it, i was out at sea about 3 days from naples at the time of the accident, and it was not a good time to be an amercain serviceman. But, I don't believe it was a pilot joyriding, either. Could it have been carelessness on his part? sure, you and i will probably never know, did he do it on purpose? of course not, but before youpre-judge him, put yourself in his shoes, for the rest of his life he has to live with the fact that because of his flying, all those peoples lives were cut tragically short.
I'll stop rambling now, and maybe this gives you someone else's point of view.
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Hamish!
(http://pages.hotbot.com/games/davekirk/images/Logos.jpg)
[This message has been edited by Hamish (edited 08-04-2000).]
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Originally posted by Hamish:
Cartegna/Malaga/Tormelinas(sp, sorry RAM, and the rest of the Spanish flyers, i cannot remember how to spell them
Cartagena, Malaga...still wondering wich one is the last one (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Maybe Torremolinos? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hamish here we dont talk wether Americans are good or bad. The "oportunist" thing is a Hristo's joke that has been running lately, being the subject of many many trolls (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
The core thing of this is that USA is a good country. Bassicaly EVERY one democratic country is a good one, with good objectives and a strong desire for a peaceful future in wich all live in freedom and equality of oportunities to grow and be happy.
US has a lot of things to be proud about, what we are discussing here is that there are many US people who only see the GOOD part of their country, closing the eyes to the bad things.
Same goes with the "historic" thing. US has a past to be proud about, no doubts about it. But it has also a lot of shameful pages just as every other country has. But while a lot of people know about the good and the bad, there are people who endlessy brag about their country's past ignoring sistematically that there is a lot to be shameful about, too in that past.
Hamish...I hope you get my point. As part of the armed forces of a country you deserve my salute. Dont take this thread wrong. I am sure that when it is left back in the pages of this forum we'll all have learned a lot about it.
<S!>.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 08-04-2000).]
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Santa,
Let's see...
9 months of rain, wind and cold; 41% income tax; 25% sales tax; over bureaucratized and only soccer for sport?
Damn, no wonder you're always so petulant on the boards..... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Toad:
Oh, I forgot to mention the things that make up for it:
Young, liberated horny blonde women.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
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After flying round the world for the past 26 years Santa, let me assure you that you can find those in a lot of places with much better weather and taxes!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Toad: come visit me for a bit. The women in this town seem especially fond of Americans, as some of my friends can attest to.
I am quite sure that they can teach even an old dog like yourself a trick or two (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
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Oh, I forgot to mention the things that make up for it:
Young, liberated horny blonde women.
Sounds like you guys have been "Californicated". Welcome to the joys of a free world. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
P.S. Naso, the tradgedy of the american pilot clipping that wire and killing all those people was horrible, and my heart goes out to all the families that were affected by it, i was out at sea about 3 days from naples at the time of the accident, and it was not a good time to be an amercain serviceman. But, I don't believe it was a pilot joyriding, either. Could it have been carelessness on his part? sure, you and i will probably never know, did he do it on purpose? of course not, but before youpre-judge him, put yourself in his shoes, for the rest of his life he has to live with the fact that because of his flying, all those peoples lives were cut tragically short.
I've seen this incident used multiple times to villify Americans; to ravage our reps, to place us in a very poor light in regards to our commitment to defense away from our shores...
Folks, that crew was cruicifed; both the front seat guys were drummed outta the service. Necessary I guess; but the mission was to train.. and those guys were flying in an attack profile that they would have to use had the real thing been going down. I offer the below quote in defense of the mission; if not the crew. That plane was a Prowler.. an ECM A/C with no defenseive capability beyond it's electronics. They train for ingress and egress nape of the earth. It's the only way the A/C has a chance of survival in a combat enviornment.
"I'd hate to see an epitaph on a fighter pilots tombstone that says "I told you I needed training"... How do you train for the most dangerous game in the world by being as safe as possible? When you don't let a guy train because it's dangerous, you're saying "Go fight those lions with your bare hands in that arena, because we can't teach you how to use a spear. If we do; you might poke someones eye out while you're learning"
And thats just the same as Murder.
Colonel "Boots" Boothby
That crew coulda been French; British or Italian. Had it been anyone else other than an American crew; would the furor have been the same? I wonder...
Hang
[This message has been edited by Hangtime (edited 08-05-2000).]
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Hang, in an earlier age and one particular country a guy penned:
"It's 'Tommy this' and 'Tommy that'
and 'Throw Him Out, the Brute!'
but it's 'Saviour Of His Country!'
when the guns begin to shoot."
Well, in the New World Order guess who gets to be Tommy? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Hamish: Great post.
Re: Cernis. I was living in Italy at the time. I guess what bothered me more than anything were the reports that the higher-ups at the base held a cavalier attitude towards local legislation.
Uh... what do I mean? Hell, who do you think the Italians, Austrians and Germans would rather see implicated: the poor flight crew or the commander responsible for the wholescale flouting of Italian law and general aviation safety practices? Cernis wasn't some hot-dog Marine trying to fly under a wire, it was (according to my limited understanding) the sad result of documented disregard for the "host country" on the part of those responsible for a single NATO base. The local inhabitants had complained for years about low-flying aircraft; Heck, I vaguely remember some (AF?) critique of the way Aviano was run that came out months before the incident.
And, yes, I know that a training flight for an ECM A/C involves flying NOE, and if you're preparing to fight in Yugoslavia, you'd better be training in the mountains, but at least get the guys decent maps.
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LOL Well, some post eh?!
Anyway, The House Of Lords has recently undergone major change in Great Britain and so much for the better. They do have quite an effect still though as any law passed through English parliament must be approved by the House of Lords. It's quite often table-tennis with laws being strung back and forth for ages. Not Good!
Lend Lease. Yep, was a major factor in WW2. Britain actually aquired thousands of aircraft from the US through lend-lease and Britain then herself distributed it to it's own commonwealth countries and even to France and the Soviet Union.
Indian's in North America. Well, yep, the Spanish, French and British are all guilty of killing/educating the indians. The Seven Years War perhaps had the most effect on the indian society IMHO and then lately when America came into it's own after the British colonies.
I wouldn't agree that it was just the USA that defeated Hitler. I think it was a great allied force that did that. Lucky for Britain is that we are an island separated from the rest of Europe. That saved us. Then also Britain was able to turn to the British Commonwealth which is so vast! Look how many came over to help in Europe - Canadian's, Australian's, New Zealander's, Indian's, Pakastani's, African's, and probably a lot more than I can think of. Just lucky that Britain was available as a big platform!
All great countries come to an end. It might be the USA that are strong today; who is it tomorrow? Britain, Spain and France had huge empires. Britian, IMHO, lost it's empire after WW1. It had borrowed so much money from the USA that it was stuck in depression for many years. It traded many things to help pay back that money. I think the US may have benefitted an awful lot out of WW1 through no intention of their own.
Anyway, the only thing that worries me in this world today is Europe.... United States of Europe.... I hope Britain never joins!
Regards
'Nexx'
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Awww, the EU is the greatest thing since sliced bread (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Heh, hasn't changed much in Denmark since we joined, not "on the ground" so to speak. However, the EU is asking for a more uniform tax system in some ways and that can onyl benefit us, since we have just about the highest taxes in the world (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
EU - fat bueraucrats living good lives doing little. Sounds like politicians everywhere (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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Actually hang- I have NOTHING but greatest RESPECT for the pilot of that plane that clipped the cable. He flew back that bird with the top 3/4 of the rudder ripped off and most of his tail surfaces jammed by the force of the impact shifting the metal frame of the plane.
Then he landed.
Holy toejam.
One thing America gives her servicemen.. thats INCREDIBLE training and skill with their equipment. It was a feat that almost no other air force could depend on their pilot to do.
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Hangtime, Hamish, Dinger.
Regarding Cermis,
The flight was a NOE training flight, i'm not surprised they flyed so low, lot of Nato pilots do the same, and the only hope the Italian pilots in the older G91s and now in the AMX had in case of war was to fly in valleys veeeery low.
Training is important, but...
Doing this in a densly populated land need accurate planning and a strictly controlled execution.
As i remember the flight was in some way not classified as a NOE training flight, and the flight plan was different from the real path followed by the pilot, and (most important) they where using a camera to make some souvenir filming, so is'nt hard to me to imagine some kind of "look, i'm good!!" attitude (talking about to be in other's shoes).
Add the bad maps in use, and you have the accident sequence complete.
They screwed, as lot of pilots do when full of toejam.
Where the ugly attitude comes out is in the moments after the accident, when the pilots start saying they do nothing bad and nobody else than the US government had to investigate their actions, they seemed to forget to be in an allied country, having the rights to know who and why killed that people.
They where ugly supposing was fair to violate the Rules because there where Italian rules, not US rules.
And this happen a lot when US combatants are involved, because the train or the education they have, the US position in the world, and the "cowboy" attitude (see the handgun threads), make they feel the rules are for weak, the strong can do anythink he want, unless stopped by a stronger power.
This as a little contribution to the problem, a lot longer post needed to explain the complete vision i have about Cermis and similar facts.
Because of my bad english, i have noticed a little misunderstanding of my attitude.
I wish to explain, to clarify this.
Usually i use quite different points of wiev to examine a problem, and different levels of generalization.
This mean i dont hate Americans as people, nor USA as the whole nation, nor i am a nationalist (lol, Italian nationalist?, it's hard to find one... but there are few), i citicize some attitudes the US general culture develope in some induviduals.
It's a question of contest, i am convinced people i see in this community are nice people, and i salute all, only some of them become less nice in some situation, e.g. Hangtime in a P51, [deleted], Torque in energy advantage, Fariz in a Spit, when they shot me down (you are overmodelled, HTC have to fix you). (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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I meant "we miss you Dinger" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif), sorry for my bad english.
[/edit]
[This message has been edited by Naso (edited 08-08-2000).]
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Err. Cermis. sorry.
My point, more clearly stated, would be that I can't honestly blame the crew of that plane for "murder" due to a "Cowboy attitude", the presence of which has largely been assumed from certain stereotypes of American pilots. And I don't think you will disagree with the statement that there were a hell of a lot of AMerican "Cowboys" flying through those mountains. I'd much rather charge with murder the person who is supposed to enforce a modicum of discipline at the base.
Oh and Naso, I'm flattered you think I'm meaner in person than I am online. I'm in California until tomorrow, then I load up the 'puter and about 500 pounds of books and drive across this country.
[This message has been edited by Dinger (edited 08-07-2000).]
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I agree, Ding (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Look at the squad forum, i will explain and excuse myself in Italian for my stupid joke, no offense intended, please forgive my ignorance in english language, i never study it.
I have full respect for you, Dinger.
[/edit]
Naso
[This message has been edited by Naso (edited 08-08-2000).]