Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: leonid on August 04, 2000, 04:33:00 AM
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After seeing Hangtime's post it seemed like a good time to make a similar post. So, here goes. Besides, with only one unit in AH the VVS could use the exposure ...
First, I am not a Russian, either by blood or by nationality, and, in fact, the USA is my country of origin. So, I have no personal reasons for my preference.
Second, my choice to represent the VVS has placed me in an awkward position within the Western flight sim community, mostly because of the Cold War, a time during which most WWII flight simmers, including myself, grew up in. Thus, old animosities die hard, and it will probably take a generation for this to pass away.
So, what reason could I have to represent the airforce of the Soviet Union, a totalitarian regime that was politically opposite to the USA? Two words, history and truth. For most westerners, the Great Patriotic War was this obscure conflict that occurred in Russia where the Germans fought for many years until they were finally swamped by the unending masses of Russians. The Germans are seen as masters of combat from both a tactical and operational view, yet the Soviets, on the contrary, are usually depicted as the living equivalents of those walking corpses in that cult classic, Day of the Undead. That the Germans were brilliant tacticians, and equally adept at operational art is absolutely true. That the Soviets conducted massed, linear attacks is also true, but to a point. As the war progressed, such unimaginative planning became fewer and far between in the Red Army, and in fact there are cases of high ranking commanders being relieved of command for such carelessness. What many westerners don't realize is that in 1944 the Soviets conducted their very own 'Barbarossa' that was every bit the masterpiece that the German campaign of summer '41 had been. My point is that when one delves deeper into the Russo-German conflict by studying sources from both sides one comes to a very different realization than is commonly felt by the average westerner:[list=a]
- the Russian front was the largest conflict in WWII, where the percentage of German forces deployed there was never lower than 60%.
- for the Germans, the war in Russia had always been a war of annihilation. I think today we would call it a war of genocide. And while the Soviets were not aware of Germany's true intentions at first, by the winter of '41 it had become painfully clear.
- That the Soviet Union didn't fall to the Germans in 1941 or 1942 is astounding when one looks at the disparity between the two combatants. That the Soviets held back the Germans when most needed, learned from their mistakes, then struck back in a way that only Germany could have duplicated is really an amazing feat.[/list=a]
So, if I sound in awe of the Soviet Union, make no mistake, I am in awe of what they did. No, I have no love for Stalin or the Communist Party, but when you look at the Soviet Union as a whole, and look at what they accomplished given their catastrophic beginnings, it is one of the more astounding events of the twentieth century - maybe the most, but that's just my personal opinion.
Thus, it's a shame that so many westerners have no inkling as to what actually went on far away in Russia during that terrible time. And that such an amazing event should be relegated and locked away in some dusty, dark corner as a casualty of the Cold War experience is an injustice to 29 million(at least) who died in Russia during WWII, ridding the world of the Third Reich, as well as saving themselves from genocidal extinction.
By flying VVS, I hope to wipe off some of that dust and share such knowledge with those who may wonder about the War in Russia. And, since the Russian economy makes most western online game subscription rates prohibitive, I thought that being a Russian proxy would be acceptable.
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leonid, Kompol
5 GIAP VVS-KA, Knights (http://www.adamfive.com/guerrero)
"Our cause is just. The enemy will be crushed. Victory will be ours."
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Great post, Leonid. It's a shame that, even since the collapse of the Communist regime in the early '90's, no Russian books or films that candidly recount the story from the Russian perspective have gotten much exposure in the West. Is there a Russian equivalent of Sajer's "Forgotten Soldier", and is there Russian Stephen Ambrose who is chronicling it all before their own "greatest generation" passes on? One can only hope so.
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Biggest mistake they did was attack against Finland (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
"Nobody respects a country with a poor army, but everybody respects a country with a good army. I raise my toast to the Finnish Army."
J. Stalin 1948
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The Russians will be back. If I had to mention one thing the Russians do much better than us Euro/US weenies, it is dealing with hard times.
They're tough, pragmatic and sooner or later they'll get a grip on democracy, corruption and crime.
Then, I will be glad we're a member of NATO, "just in case" some "rogue states" have bad intentions (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
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Hehe, let me give you a quote from one of Nato's top men (retired now):
"Nato's policy against soviet agression was clear. Firs we would use conventional weapons until we were losing, then we would use tactical nuclear weapons until we were losing, then we would blow up the world"
That makes the hairs on my neck stand up!
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eh eh, mines too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Bluefish,
The true accounts of WWII can be found in the books of Voctor Suvorov. That is a nom de plume of a soviet intelligence agent who defected to England. He applies his professional experience to analyzing the documents and witness accounts to come up with a quite different picture.
Staga,
How can you say something so obviously wrong? You live in Finland, according to your info, so you should know how it was, unlike americans who see snow mostly in the movies.
Let me review some points:
1. 20 years of Finland's considerable military spending went into creation of the defense area just against such an attack. 50-100 kilometers deep, many lines with dozens of rows of barb wire. Extensive network of underground concrete forts. Interconnected fortifications masked by forests that grew over them. Bridges with explosives built in DURING construction.
2. Extensive minefields, transparent to finnish troops who knew the safe passes.
3. Scarse roads extensively mined all around, no redundancy in case a bridge is blown up.
4. Extremely well prepared and equipped finnish soldiers specifically trained for such kind of war.
5. Temperatures -40 degrees, same Celsius of Farenheit - yes, minus forty. Ever tried to spend a day at that temperature? How about a week? A month? Ever try to start a car at that temperature? How about a diesel engine? How about just going to sleep and then wake up?
6. 1.5 meter (5 feet) of snow cover. Boulders hidden in the snow, thousands of lakes with thin ice cover and swamps that do not freze - due to the thick snow acting as insulator. Plenty of artificial anti-tank constructions like hedgehogs, etc. All natural creeks and ravines escarped and contr-escarped to make them impassable to machinery. Try using tanks in such conditions. Or infantry for that matter.
7. No maps of enemy defence, useless aerial reconessance due to many years of concealment works and natural growth and bad flying weather. No way to correct artillery fire in the forests.
Artillery is only usefull at point blank where it falls easy pray to finnish counterfire.
It is not possible to breach such a defence without nuclear weapons, yet russians did it.
They lost lots of men and they learned how to fight. In two months they came up with a new model of their heavy tank - KV2 with 122mm (about 4.8 inch) cannon armed with concrete penetrating shells and used them in place of the useless artillery.
Other armchair strategsts made a conclusion that russian army was weak.
Smart people made a conclusion that Stalin had an army that would obey any order, undertake any task no matter the cost and perform an impossible feat.
So when Stalin politely asked Finland's neighbours - the three baltic states, to capitulate, they did not even think of the resistsnce. So divide the Finland war casualties into those three countries, also a piece of Romania surrendered in 1940 and experience russians gained, and the price is not too high.
When they had their chance in 1941, finns grabbed back their piece of territory but did not want to go any further even though it seemed to everyone else that russians were losing. Finnish generals knew the truth about the capabilities of the russian army.
In 1941 Russian army bunched up for the offence and was destroyed by german's preemptive strike couple of weeks before its own attack, blind without any maps for the territories they had to fight in. There was absolutely no preparations neither traning for the defence in the russian army. In fact, many of the russian divisions successfully advanced according the original plans and mindset and were destroyed without any connections to supplies and support.
Most of the industry was lost also.
With what was left russians outproduced and outfought germans.
They did get thens of thousands of Studebekker trucks from US - the greatest contribution. The second in importance was food. The third was aluminum - the domestic production was lost with Ukraine.
A few P39 did not make any difference if you consider the total numbers. Even more so with other weapons obtained from allies. In tanks russians had techological superiority past the end of the war, same in many other weapons.
Russian historians directed by the communist party represented the defeat as a result of Stalin's stupidity and ineptness rather then admit that they were ready to jump and "liberate" the whole Europe from Hitler (whom they brought to power and pushed into war). wetern historians are only too happy to repeat those lies.
It was world's great luck that such two great evils cancelled each other - Hitler was defeated and Stalin only got half the Europe and the communism was destined to collapse in the economic competition 50 years later.
Read Victor Suvorov if you need hard numbers to prove that. It's all there.
"Icebreaker : Who Started the Second World War?", "Day M", and "The Last Republic"
miko--
[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 08-04-2000).]
[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 08-04-2000).]
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Great post Miko.
Yup.. the wests contribution was welcomed.. but not critical. The Russians were commin; period. Just a matter of when.
For an excellent contemporay read on the Russian mind set at Stalingrad and a well recieved view of the Russian Soldier check out "War of the Rats" by David L. Robinson
Finland's stunning defence against the soviets; and subsequent abandonment by the western allies is another lasting American embarrasment.
In recent years; the American voting public has been a heluva lot less tolerant of foregin policy fopah's.. When Bush failed to kick Hussein out; and also failed to assist the Kurds and the Sunni's in their uprising he was booted out in next election. First one term republican in a loooong time.
American public opinion; not the Clinton forced the peacekeeping moves in Bosnia.. and even tho imperfect; it did stop the genocide.
If the press can get the American public incensed enuff; the fargin politicians will react. :/
Hang
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Originally posted by miko2d:
1. 20 years of Finland's considerable military spending went into creation of the defense area just against such an attack. 50-100 kilometers deep, many lines with dozens of rows of barb wire. Extensive network of underground concrete forts. Interconnected fortifications masked by forests that grew over them. Bridges with explosives built in DURING construction.
Ahemm.. No. Our "defence area" was not a "Maginot-line". There were only few new bigger bunker but most of them were old and "out-dated". In bridges you are allmost right: Even today allmost all our bigger bridges have places for explosives but those are installed when needed(I did spend some "quality-time" in KymPionP, a battle-pioneer battaillon, And I know how to send a concrete bridge to the moon (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
2. Extensive minefields, transparent to finnish troops who knew the safe passes.
I haven't seen any documents about this issue so all I can say is that this is quite unbelievable.
3. Scarse roads extensively mined all around, no redundancy in case a bridge is blown up.
Our groups had to use same roads... Mine don't look who's driving that car.
4. Extremely well prepared and equipped finnish soldiers specifically trained for such kind of war.
This was true in continuation war but bs in winter war. Some Soldiers had to use their own clothes and boots. All what our governmet could give them was a belt and tiny mark to their cap. You noticed what kind of armament our Army had to use in -39?
Old Renault mg-tanks, Gloster Gladiators, old Mosin-Nagant rifles from era earlier than -17, Artillery was also from those years. So BS.
5. Temperatures -40 degrees, same Celsius of Farenheit - yes, minus forty. Ever tried to spend a day at that temperature? How about a week? A month? Ever try to start a car at that temperature? How about a diesel engine? How about just going to sleep and then wake up?
In my army time I spent many weeks in tent in winter. Not bad when you used to it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Of course somebody had to put some wood to the fire all the time. When smokestack was yellow/red it was quite warm in tent.
No diesels at those time. Some old Fords and Chevrolets but most of supplies carryed by wagons towed by horses. We didn't got enough fuel to spend to cars so we had to use a "wood-gas" which was a carbon-monoxide produced in a "thingie" behind the cockpit.
6. 1.5 meter (5 feet) of snow cover. Boulders hidden in the snow, thousands of lakes with thin ice cover and swamps that do not freze - due to the thick snow acting as insulator. Plenty of artificial anti-tank constructions like hedgehogs, etc. All natural creeks and ravines escarped and contr-escarped to make them impassable to machinery. Try using tanks in such conditions. Or infantry for that matter.
First you say -40degree and then our lakes didn't freeze enough or our swamps at all ?
bs. FAF used lakes as a airfields. Near my summerplace in Hauho in the middle of Finland are lake "Iso-Roine". Few russian SB-2's landed on that freezed lake because they had to share some fuel. One of them stayed there because couple our "Fighters" came in. If I remember right those were Gladiators.
7. No maps of enemy defence, useless aerial reconessance due to many years of concealment works and natural growth and bad flying weather. No way to correct artillery fire in the forests.
Artillery is only usefull at point blank where it falls easy pray to finnish counterfire.
True.
So when Stalin politely asked Finland's neighbours - the three baltic states, to capitulate, they did not even think of the resistsnce.
Damn... You are trolling aren't you ?
At least our Southern "Cousins" Estonians had a very strong group called "Forest brothers"
("That one of us who survive, He must tell the truth when the time is right" they talked...)
So divide the Finland war casualties into those three countries, also a piece of Romania surrendered in 1940 and experience russians gained, and the price is not too high.
Huhh... Now I'm sure you're joking (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
When they had their chance in 1941, finns grabbed back their piece of territory but did not want to go any further even though it seemed to everyone else that russians were losing. Finnish generals knew the truth about the capabilities of the russian army.
True.
..And Russians really shooted their own soldiers with artillery late -39 near Mainila in Carelia when they wanted to start a war with Finland. WTFG! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I just wish they should continue it that way (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Staga
(wondering how this looks like out of that small window...)
[This message has been edited by Staga (edited 08-04-2000).]
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Miko you should check out this site.
WinterWar (http://www.winterwar.com)
Of course that could be only a Finnish propaganda but I really would like to hear your opinion about winterwar and that site.
If that was a troll... then You got me badly (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
If it wasn't... I'm sorry for you.
Staga
[This message has been edited by Staga (edited 08-04-2000).]
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So divide the Finland war casualties into those three countries, also a piece of Romania surrendered in 1940 and experience russians gained, and the price is not too high.
Oh man...the price was Romania and Finnish entry into war,later in 1941.
F you dont think that is a high price to pay...what is?.
BTW the finnish stand on the Winter War is for me the biggest hero stand since Peloponesus. outnumbered, out classed in technology, Finnish army gave USSR a strong kick in their nuts, a <FINGER> and a lot of lessons to learn.
That was bravery. my Salute to Finnish people! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I want to say, too that its material to think about that LW-iron fliers regularly hear things like "nazi" surrounding us, while I never saw anyone tell a russian-iron lover "you are a communist devil".
I hope that people here think about it. Not so long ago we were reading that LW people supported a Nazi regime that commited big atrocities and so they deserved their country levelled, and deserved they name insulted by a "NAZI" mark on them because, nazis or not, all of them fighted defending Germany.
I wont post here the atrocities commited by Stalin, but Hitler and him must be now together in a big flame in Hell, because they were like twins.
So Russian pilots deserved their country levelled and their name insulted because they defended Russia and so the communism?. No, true?...and why do you think this, maybe because they fought on allied side?
as I said, this is something to think about...maybe if Russia had attacked poland and germany ,britain and US were allies now the VVS fliers would be called here "red devils" and we LW nothing near what we hear last days.
As I said a lot of things...the Evil done by the axis is well remembered...but the evil done by the allied or it is excused or it is forgotten by many.
Time to think.
(leonid, Gie, and all the VVS people...<S!> you have my absolute respect. this was directed to some emptyhead people that are here in this BBS, nothing to do with you. <S!> again (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif))
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 08-04-2000).]
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Sorry Leonid looks like we just Hi-Jacked your topic...
Here's one pic from British newspaper (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Scanned from book "WinterWar Chronicle"
(http://www.kolumbus.fi/staga/aces/secretwe.jpg)
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Yes, Staga, I noticed. But at least you acknowledged it.
Btw, RAM, I'm aware that LW squads get labelled a lot of things, including, unfortunately, the term 'Nazi'. Of course, I don't subscribe to this, since I believe most squads are formed in admiration of the aerial achievements. However, let me ask you two questions? How many LW squads are here in AH? And how many VVS squads are in AH? My original post was a response, of sorts, to the second question.
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leonid, Kompol
5 GIAP VVS-KA, Knights (http://www.adamfive.com/guerrero)
"Our cause is just. The enemy will be crushed. Victory will be ours."
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Originally posted by miko2d:
4. Extremely well prepared and equipped finnish soldiers specifically trained for such kind of war.
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I found a pic of Finnish soldiers at winter 1939. Your post was a joke ? Sorry but I just didn't get it ? Could you explain it to me please ?
(http://www.kolumbus.fi/staga/aces/men1939_2.jpg)
Pic is scanned from book "Independent Finland", Written by Jukka Tarkka and Allan Tiitta.
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Okay, I'm out of this thread (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
enjoy ...
[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 08-05-2000).]
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Why do I fly VVS Planes in a VVS Squad?
Well, let me tell ya, it was a long road.
When I first started AH I had never flown a single airflight sim in my life. No- wait, I lie. I flew Falcon 2.0 on a C-64 but that hardly counts here. Way back then Landing and taking off were insanely hard. It took me over 40 attempts to take off the first time (finally ran off the end of the cliff).
In those days I just wanted a docile plane that could be flown and fought with by me. One night while I was playing roulette with planes I kept tangling with Wardog in his P-51D. I believe at the time I was flying a spit IX as it handled the easiest for me. After (me) dying 2x wardog suggested I try an La-5FN as it was easier to control.
The humble start of a love affair began.
Taking off I found her quick acceleration and rudder control and low alt speed were incredible. I could turn with a spit and loop like a 109, just could do neither for as long as those two due to the E loss. I can still remember my only complaint..
"but WD theres only 2 guns in this plane"-sorrow
"<S> their 20mm sorrow...."-Wardog
I was hooked....
to this day I have shot down 237 unlucky pilots in my La-5FN. Got blasted too- 359 times but since beta 1 I have been close to .7 or .8 to 1 k/d. Not bad for a beginner in a '43 plane!
In truth after I migrated to the Knights, when knights usually mustered less than 10 pilots at any time, I found out _why_ I love VVS planes- every one I have ever flown.
When one thinks about how certain planes fight- it reflects the country that made them. German planes are E fighters- they loop vertically and climb well and kill with grace. American planes are B&Z mostly- fast powerfull and plentifull guns they swoop in and kill. British planes are B&Z planes. sleek lines that outturn and gain angles until the parting kill.
Russian planes? What do they do? Russian planes can do all of these things but master none of them. A russian plane instead is the king of the overshoot. Manueverable, low stall speeds and high acceleration, and guns that can hammer an opponent down as quick as possible. They are truly planes made for pilots who almost never have the advantage.
When this came to me I truly became dangerous. Then I met leo. Leo is quite simply the master of the La-5FN. He knows how to use it like a musical instrument. Whether at a disadvantage or not he can work magic.
I met- I died. I begged to come and learn.
But that doesn't answer the question. Why am I in a VVS squad still? The answer lies deeper.
Much about the plane made me think about the pilots who flew them. You know- alot has been said here about who's country had the "best" pilots. Germany had their aces and so did the US and Finland as well. But long before the subject came up _I_ allready knew- at least in my heart. Unlike any other country Russian pilots were the bravest ones to fly in WWII. Often massacred by superior planes they continued to fly low altitude to protect their troops and comrades. No other country adapted their planes to make them tougher and more capable of encountering an enemy coming from a superior position. In truth I think Russian pilots by the end of the war were the most dangerous ones. They neither expected or needed an advantage to fight the enemy. They accepted that their lifespan was probably going to be shorter than a WWI pilots. And still- they flew. And I think the success of eastern front german aces on western fronts vs. the opposite proves how incredibly strong opponents Russian pilots were.
One can bring up Finland ad nauseum. The fact was that it was just a proving ground for the VVS where they lost- yet gained experiance. And in one way I feel much much sorrier for the russian conscripts who died trying to conquer Finland than anyone else. Finland didn't have a maginot line- but they had preperations and successfully made their border a dying ground Russia could not take short of total war. Hurrah for them- it has nothing to do with why I fly VVS though. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Do I like Stalin? no I don't. However I do feel obliged to point out that he was a strong leader when Russia could not afford to waffle. Am I communist? Certainly not! However I feel in my heart Russian people are the most strong willed in the world. As leo pointed out victory for them was personal like NO other country. Hitler was welcomed into the Ukraines in '39. But the resulting Genocide hardened people like no other army on earth. They did not fight to conquer europe, or to save the jews or to resist fascism. The fought to kill germans. No mercy, no quarter.
So in effect why do I fly VVS? Respect. For the pilots who died doing their duty. For the instruments they used. And for the spirit they carried.
"Our cause is just. The enemy will be crushed. Victory will be ours."
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If your in range, so is the enemy.
(http://www3.bc.sympatico.ca/sorrow/sorrow.gif)
[This message has been edited by Sorrow[S=A] (edited 08-06-2000).]
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Great post sorrow <S>, makes me wanna join a russian squad (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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We are available >wink wink<
PS. Russian blondes... yummmyyyy... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Hi guys,
My post was not a troll. Nowhere in it I spoke with less then admiration about the finnish army.
Finland was the only outside eyewitness of the Bolshevik's atrocities of 1917 "Revolution", so they had good reasons to be afraid of intervention and it's consequences. They were preparing for 20 years while the rest of the western counties were happilt trading with communists. Arguing otherwise would only insult their intelligence.
By demeaning their enemy you do nothing to prove their worth as soldiers and you expose your own ignorance. Finns faced a dangerous and very strong enemy.
They won in large part due to their preparation, determination and training. Also in large part due to the weather and landscape conditions favoring the defence much more then attackers.
Staga:
1. What kind of "old" or "out-dated" fortifications could be there? 22 years before Finland was part of the Russian Empire and they did not have any anti-tank fortifications then.
2. You are saying that Finns were so stupid as not to use minefields in the defence? What about some 500,000 land mines sent to them by France to **augment** their defence? French missed those landmines mines later when german tanks were driving to Paris.
3. The mined roads in front of the defences affect the attacker more then they affect defenders, wouldn't you say? Finns had no reasons to drive cars among the russian columns in front of their defence line. They also had no reasons to mine their own rear roads.
4. From many eyewitness account russians were attacked by ski-equipped snipers and machinngunners who quickly killed the drivers and officers, blew up the front and rear vehicles and dissapeared usually without casualties leaving the disorganized and russian soldiers to freese to death in immobilized column.
May be those guys were just stupid and ignorant finnish peasants, but they sure look like highly trained soldiers to me. They were definitely better prepared and trained then russians.
You are arguing, Staga that russian army was worthless and then you state that finns were also untrained and ill-prepared. You even post a picture of civillian-looking armed men that allegedly defeated the russians. So I guess they won because the aryan finn is much superior to a subhuman russian type? That was what Hitler thought also. How come it did not work for him? Of probably finns are even superior to germans?
5. Do not give us that BS about the warm stoves. Attacking russians did not spend their time in heated tents. They did not even had skis for the most part.
Russians did have diesels in their tanks, BTW.
6. I served in teh Soviet tank forces (gunner and up) right across the border from Finland and I am talking from the personal experience about -40 degrees and the swamps and thin ice on the lakes, at least in the beginning of the compaign. Of course thy freeze eventually, but what idiot would argue the properties of snow as an exellent insulator?
I was able to sleep under 5 feet of snow in -30 decrees celcius and did not freeze in six hours. Other people falling asleep in -10 outside where found dead in two hours.
People in Estonia and other baltic countries were fighting the communists even after the 1945 - they are heroes, no question. But their countries got annexed by Soviet Union peacefully unless you count a few shots fired. It is a historical fact. The government just surrendered, whether formally or not - practically it was all the same.
Some of the things they kept in mind while deciding to surrender were:
a) russian's success in the terrible conditions during the winter war.
b) the fact that the world did not give a sh*t about the finns then and would not help them now.
Russians did claim that finns shot across the border first. Unlike the democratic countries with reporters and witnesses, they did not really have to stage that and shoot their own soldiers. They could just say so. Who was going to argue?
About posting the stupid pictures - germans posted lots of them of ripped of russian prisoners. Russiand did something better - they paraded hundrds of thousands of german soldiers through the streets of Moscow in 1943 headed by Paulus and his generals, and washed the street after them. So you can find a picture of some bedragged finns - what does it prove?
I was was not joking when I said that the casualties of the winter war should have been divided to cover other "bloodless" conquests. Of course it is from the communist's standpoint. The russian people did not need those counties and a single soldier killed for them was too much, but that was the reality of the day.
Also, Staga, from the tone of your post it looks like you just hate russians. At least you wish more of them had killed each other.
Russians suffered much more then finns from the Communists.
Also there were plenty of Communists (and Nazis) among finns and people of other Baltic countries.
Communists did not have much support among the russian people in the civil war of 1917-22.
Many would argue that their use of considerable number of mercenaries and volunteers from baltic states in atrocities against russian peasants was the contributing factor to their success.
RAM,
Of course when russians got the piece of Romania they did not expect the Romania to attack them eventually.
Thought I may still be right. I read the memoirs of the german generals, and while Manstein is very polite in his memoirs and tries not to offend Romanians, it is obvious that they had trouble around Odessa so the germand had to bail them out and they broke first diring the battle of Stalingrad and left the 6th army out to dry.
For all we know the germans may have been better off without such an ally.
I am not trying to knock down the romanian soldiers as inferior humans - they hust did not have much motivation to fight for germans and were much worse prepared.
Finns did not go further then the territory russians took from them. Most romanians wanted to do the same and not continue "conquering" Russia. Or maybe the germans would have won if the finns did not sit on their tails.
P.S. Another thing you all have to consider is that while the brave finns fought for their country and idealistic germans fought for their race and living space for their descendants, the russian pesants fought to conquer the world for the communists after they saw those same communists terrorize their own country for 20+ years and starved and killed millions of people in the process.
It would be stupid to expect the same kind of dedication from the russian soldier, wouldn't it? Germans had the whole armies of russians fighting on their side! I want to see any other general winning a war, winter or summer, with an army like that.
Somehow nobody is surprised that the russians were capable of brilliant operations and dispays of bravery when they were driving germans out of their country in 1943 and later.
miko--
[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 08-07-2000).]
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Staga,
Thanks for your link to the Winter War site. It is very interesting.
Unfortunately a lot of stuff in it is pure BS having the communist propaganda (including the post-Stalin one) as it's source that later made it's way into the western textbooks.
1. The russian army was in no way based on the old Tzarist army, though it is a minor point.
2. The political officers - "komissars" served only officially to inspire the russian soldiers. Really they were the party's people not in the army line of command. They kept an eye on soldiers and officers and watched for any misstep on their part - political or otherwise.
2. Stalin did not kill the capable officers before the war and replaced them with politically correct officers. The cleanup of 1937-38 was quite the opposite process.
The number of 40,000 officers killed out of 200,000 officers would not leave the army headless even if it was correct.
In reality, about 36,700 is the number of people who left the army in 37 and 38, plus about 4,000 more in the navy. That number was used as the number of all the victims.
In reality most of those people left for different reasons.
12,000+ were arrested but not all were killed and quite a few of them later returned to the army, including some brightest stars of the russian military in 1941-45.
Only about 3000 were really killed out of 200,000 officers. Almost all of them were political officers and officers of the NKVD (former KGB) or party leaders with military ranks (almost all of them were). Thy were the criminals that comprised the top communist layer - vicious, arrogant and mostly incompetent. Included in that number of "victims" are the executioners themselves - people who repressed the population.
When Stalin cleared his way to power and needed an army for the real war headed by competent people he killed off the scum that brought him to power and and freed room for real officers.
The komissars themselves were abandoned shorthy thereafter. They were replaced by political officers but this time they were in the chain of command and had to take orders from the field commanders and could not interfere in the military matters.
3. The slogan and doctrine of the Soviet Army was to bring the war to the territory of the attacking enemy. That really was was a political ploy to justify theor own forthcomong aggressions.
That is exactly what they did when they invaded Finland, Poland, etc. - they were defending and bringing thewar to the "agressor".
Russians did not pay any attention to the defence and prepared for none.
All in all, the same wrong information can be seen in most western sources because it was taken from the communist sources in 1950s.
Rather then admit that they were preparing an agression and were hit when most vulnerable, they prefered to blame it on Stalin being stupid, Stalin being afraid of Hitler and at the same time not beliving in Hitler's attack and not preparing for it (what was he afraid then if he did not believe that H. would attack?) and such crap.
miko--
[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 08-07-2000).]
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Hiya Miko
First: I dont hate russians. Some of my co-workers and also some people which used to work for my parents in motel they owned few years ago were russians. What I "hate" are people who attacked in Finland back then.
About that artillery strike in Mainila:
If I understand right what you are saying you still believe Finns shooted those granades ? Better buy a newer history book then.
Did you check that link above ?
If not you really should check it and also read it.
Of course you don't had to believe anything in there.
btw: Some russian historian has made a book about bomb raids over Helsinki and in that book are even amount of bombs dropped to our city. One thing they didn't tell was that the bombers squad sometimes dropped their load to bay of Finland because they were afraid of Helsinki's AAA and Fighters covering our city.
Also few miles east of Helsinki are another cape and people put some bonfires there and voila; Bombers thought that it was burning city (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Mission succesful (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Russians send a spy to look what kind of damage bombers did but fortunate police get him. After that All bomb raids were very succesfull. Did your historian teacher told you this ? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
And yes,I know later russians tanks used diesel engine (btw:Very nice construction with double over head cams, looked HiTech if compared to Chevy's smallblock (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)).
Tanks used in '39-'40 were mostly BT-5,BT-7,T-26 and T-28 models with petrol engine.
We have plenty of them in our museums (one T-26 and T-34 are in driving condition and also one Sturmgeschütz III).
Stupid pics? Well I have plenty of those in my books and other sources but I'm not gonna send those pics here. Those are too offensive IMO.
For me it looks like you have your point of view to history and I understand it if you're born russian as it looks like. You should also understand my POV.
I see no reason to continue this. We have different opinions and in world we are living now it's possible.
Good luck in your new life in U.S!
Staga
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Staga,
you accuse me of something I never said.
I was actually agreing with you and you just attacked me for a minor correction to your story.
I did not say that finns shot across the border. I agreed that it was rhe russian provocation. I just said that russians did not have to actually shoot their own people or shoot at all because they could just lie about it.
It may not be obvious for westerners the completenes of communist propaganda and the dimension of their lies.
Americans would have to stage something because they would expect some experts to verify their statements. Communists did not have to worry about that behind the Iron Curtain.
Here are my words:
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"Russians did claim that finns shot across the border first. Unlike the democratic countries with reporters and witnesses, they did not really have to stage that and shoot their own soldiers. They could just say so. Who was going to argue?"
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It looks like you just want to blast people even if they agree with you, just so that you could get the last word...
I also made some specific comments about the
incorrect things on the Winter War Site. I never said anything about bombings.
All airforces exagerrated their results, including finns, germans and allies.
The spy story I hear for the first time, but
if you believe that russians needed to send a single spy to Finland when the war started to do the damage asessment, you are completely out of touch with reality.
Russians had plenty of communists inside and outside of Finland and more spies then you could shake a stick at.
In fact many finns were very instrumental in bringing the communist rule over the russian people.
I am not a russian for your information. I hate comunists for what they did and were going to do. I just do it for real reasons, not imagined ones, like you do.
Also, my history teacher did not teach me about the Winter War. It did not exist at all in our history. No mention whatsoever.
I do not understand your POV.
Marshall Mannerheim is famous for his insight and years of preparation and training he gave to the Finland. How can you state that after all his efforts the Finland had just a few untrained irregulars to defend itself?
miko--