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General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Karnak on November 10, 2005, 03:58:52 PM

Title: Spitfire Mk VIII
Post by: Karnak on November 10, 2005, 03:58:52 PM
:D

Now, can any of you post a screenshot of the Spitfire Mk VIII for those of us stuck at work?

Thanks.
Title: Spitfire Mk VIII
Post by: Sable on November 10, 2005, 04:01:43 PM
The question on my mind is - if we got both a Spitfire Mk. VIII and Mk. XVI, is one of them modeled with 150 octane fuel?
Title: Spitfire Mk VIII
Post by: Karnak on November 10, 2005, 04:05:32 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Sable
The question on my mind is - if we got both a Spitfire Mk. VIII and Mk. XVI, is one of them modeled with 150 octane fuel?

Well, they are substantially different even with both on 100 octane.  In addition having the Mk VIII leaves open the possibility of boosting the Mk XVI at a later date, if it is deemed a good thing to do, without putting a significant hole in the Spitfire lineup.

At this point I am satisfied that the AH Spitfire lineup is complete.

Spitfire Mk Ia
Spitfire Mk Vb
Spitfire Mk VIII
Spitfire Mk IX
Spitfire MK XIVe
Spitfire Mk XVIe
Seafire Mk IIc
Title: Spitfire Mk VIII
Post by: Bruno on November 10, 2005, 04:35:44 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Sable
The question on my mind is - if we got both a Spitfire Mk. VIII and Mk. XVI, is one of them modeled with 150 octane fuel?


Of course not, the reason why is outlined in the 15 other threads on this question, including one where Pyro gives his reasons...
Title: Spitfire Mk VIII
Post by: Kev367th on November 10, 2005, 04:46:04 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
Well, they are substantially different even with both on 100 octane.  In addition having the Mk VIII leaves open the possibility of boosting the Mk XVI at a later date, if it is deemed a good thing to do, without putting a significant hole in the Spitfire lineup.

At this point I am satisfied that the AH Spitfire lineup is complete.

Spitfire Mk Ia
Spitfire Mk Vb
Spitfire Mk VIII
Spitfire Mk IX
Spitfire MK XIVe
Spitfire Mk XVIe
Seafire Mk IIc


Complete? - Sort of
Seafire still has NO ord/DT options, so we still have incorrect or missing loadouts.

Asked HT why, answer, because Pyro didn't model them.
It is still the rarest Seafire produced, in its earliest and rarest form (Merlin 46).

Spit XIV still only 18lbs boost.

Still NO 1945 RAF plane, free or perked

On the bright side the XVI flies like a dream, rolls really well, climbs like a banshee.
Title: Spitfire Mk VIII
Post by: 1K3 on November 10, 2005, 04:52:03 PM
Spit 8 is a good match to ki-84

Spit 14 should be unperked

109K-4 is FASTER than spit 14 at all altitudes and 109K-4's boost lasts longer
Title: Spitfire Mk VIII
Post by: Karnak on November 10, 2005, 05:12:00 PM
1K3,

The Spitfire MK XIV should be faster above about 23,000 or 24,000ft.
Title: Spitfire Mk VIII
Post by: RedTop on November 10, 2005, 05:41:19 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
1K3,

The Spitfire MK XIV should be faster above about 23,000 or 24,000ft.


:) Although I have NO idea ...I do know , as an MA player , that fights at that alt. are about 1 a day. :lol So speed at that alt really means diddly.
Title: Spitfire Mk VIII
Post by: 1K3 on November 10, 2005, 06:00:00 PM
thre;'s something weird abouyt the Spitfire Joystick

anyone noticed it?
Title: Spitfire Mk VIII
Post by: Squire on November 10, 2005, 09:28:54 PM
They arent going to model every joystick design I dont think. They just have the model, and then it swivels left right, for all of the a/c in the game.

Btw, some quick Sea Level speed tests (E6B) for the Spits (max wep boost):

Spit IA 301 +12
Spit VB 304 +12
Spit IX 319 +12
Spit VIII 337 +18
Spit XVI 341 +18
Spit XIV 358 +18

Seafire IIC 304 +12

The Spit IA is proper speed now :), not 290 like it was before (which was a 1939 speed with 87 octane).

The VIII and XVI are beautifull to fly, and quite fast.

As for the Seafire IIC, I dont know why its only modelled to +12 lbs, by Nov 42 all the Spit Vs and Seafires were +16lb boost, and there is no DT or BOMB for it at all, despite its "C" wing.

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/seafireIIc.pdf

That being said, I am pleased with the changes, most of the Spits have slipper tanks, and they have the proper ord as well. Thumbs up HTC :aok
Title: Spitfire Mk VIII
Post by: Guppy35 on November 11, 2005, 12:18:49 AM
I think the Spit fans came out rather well in this update.  We got the FIX, LFVIII with full span wings and the clipped XVI.

Alls good from where I'm sitting.  30 gallon slipper tanks are good.  The use of the 45 and 90 was minimal.  I've only seen the 90 on some used for escorting bombers in 44 when the RAF was flying daylight raids.

For the MA the 30 is a nice touch  Gets you to the fight, and it's small enough you don't neccesarrily have to kick it off right away.

I always remember about the first XII encounters with 190s.  the XIIs were able to extend away from the 190s and on more then one occasion they'd forgotten to jettison the slipper tank.

It was great fun to go running around in the XVI tonite.  Gonna be tough not to get completely hooked on it.  Don't want to hurt my 38G's feelings :)
Title: Spitfire Mk VIII
Post by: Karnak on November 11, 2005, 12:27:51 AM
Squire,

The Spit IX is at +15lbs boost, not +12lbs.
Title: Spitfire Mk VIII
Post by: Squire on November 11, 2005, 12:39:03 AM
Yup, typo. +15 lbs.

Is it faster at 319 mph? maybe just a few mph?...
Title: Spitfire Mk VIII
Post by: Krusty on November 11, 2005, 12:51:19 AM
You still want a screenshot?
Title: Spitfire Mk VIII
Post by: Karnak on November 11, 2005, 01:05:24 AM
Heh.  No, I flew it online a bit.  Ripped my wings off on the first flight.  Got ganged on the second, though I lsted a good long while and had fun trying to hit a squirley Hurri IIc on the third flight, but it was took dark to see much against the water at that point, couldn't judge alt.

I'll fly it some more after I get my joystick reprogrammed.  I lost my good config file after my last computer had a catastrophic RAID failure.
Title: Spitfire Mk VIII
Post by: Crumpp on November 11, 2005, 01:08:56 PM
Quote
I always remember about the first XII encounters with 190s. the XIIs were able to extend away from the 190s and on more then one occasion they'd forgotten to jettison the slipper tank.



Even at the bottom end of FW-190A performance it is generally faster at lower altitudes than the Spitfire Mk XII.

Is this anecdotal evidence Guppy?

Given Focke Wulfs 3% manufacturer's guarantee from their listed speed at sea level of 578kph we see flight-tested data going from 565kph to 588kph.

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/dp845speed.gif

If it is "game" performance then you are correct.

HTC models the FW-190 well below the manufactures listed specifications:

http://www.hitechcreations.com/frindex.html


All the best,

Crumpp
Title: Spitfire Mk VIII
Post by: Guppy35 on November 11, 2005, 01:21:36 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
Even at the bottom end of FW-190A performance it is generally faster at lower altitudes than the Spitfire Mk XII.

Is this anecdotal evidence Guppy?

Given Focke Wulfs 3% manufacturer's guarentee from their listed speed at sea level of 578kph we see flight tested data going from 565kph  to 588kph.

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/dp845speed.gif

If it is "game" performance then you are correct.

HTC models the FW-190 well below the manufactuers listed specifications:

http://www.hitechcreations.com/frindex.html


All the best,

Crumpp


Found in combat reports from 41 Squadron when they first went into action with the XII.  Joe Birbeck had knocked down a 190 and was being pursued by another.  340 IAS on the deck, trailing 190 couldn't catch him even though Birbeck had forgotten to jettison the 30 gallon slipper tank .  April 43.  The XIIs always went with the 30 gallon slipper tank, to make up for the higher fuel consumption of the Griffon III/IV.  They'd just transitioned from clipped Vbs so I imagine they'd not gotten used to dropping tanks and forgot to in the heat of combat.

No clue which 190A variant was involved.  And I won't argue numbers with ya :)  Reality or otherwise, those XII drivers thought  they had the edge and it made a difference in how they flew against the 190s.
Title: Spitfire Mk VIII
Post by: Crumpp on November 11, 2005, 01:48:35 PM
Where were they at Dan?

The Spitfire Mk XII has definate performance edge over the FW-190G series which has a different motor set up and drag profile than the Anton.

Our AH FW-190A5 is based on FW-190G series aircraft that the allies attempted to convert back to Antons.  It's performance falls inbetween the Gustav and the Anton.


All the best,

Crumpp
Title: Spitfire Mk VIII
Post by: Crumpp on November 11, 2005, 02:06:06 PM
I found some information on Spitfire Mk XII's defending against FW-190's making "hit and run" raids against England from bases in Normandy.

Do you have an exact date, I might be able to tell which Luftwaffe unit they most likely encountered.

All the best,

Crumpp
Title: Spitfire Mk VIII
Post by: Widewing on November 11, 2005, 02:31:38 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Squire
Yup, typo. +15 lbs.

Is it faster at 319 mph? maybe just a few mph?...


Nope..Still does 319.

My regards,

Widewing
Title: Spitfire Mk VIII
Post by: Guppy35 on November 11, 2005, 02:45:49 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
Where were they at Dan?

The Spitfire Mk XII has definate performance edge over the FW-190G series which has a different motor set up and drag profile than the Anton.

Our AH FW-190A5 is based on FW-190G series aircraft that the allies attempted to convert back to Antons.  It's performance falls inbetween the Gustav and the Anton.


All the best,

Crumpp


April 27, 1943

Calais/Somme Estuary area.  It was a two ship recce flight of XIIs.  They were at 1500 feet and were intercepted by 2 190s flying at the same height with the fight descending to sea level.  One of the XIIs was damaged by cannon fire but got home by outrunning the 190 on his 6.  He still had his tank on.  His wingman turned into the 190s and got one before outrunning the other, again failing to jettision his slipper tank.

Another fight involved XIIs of 91 squadron intercepted 190A5s of SKG 10 that had been attacking the coastal towns at dawn and dusk.  This was May 25th near Folkstone where 4 XIIs interecepted an estimated 15 190A5s. and claimed 5 for no loss.
Title: Spitfire Mk VIII
Post by: Crumpp on November 11, 2005, 03:26:11 PM
Quote
April 27, 1943


Interesting.

Calais/Somme Estuary is well within JG26's area and most likely would they would have been assigned any reconnasissance flight interception.

I show no activity on the 27th of April 1943.  However on the 23 April 1943 No. 41 squadron reconnasissance flight interception is specifically mentioned.  Obfw. Fritsch of the 5th Staffel led "offensive-defensive" patrols.  

No FW190's were lost and one "Spitfire" was claimed.  However the claim investigation of the crash site awarded credit for a "Mustang".

The Mustangs were not pursed as the patrol was low on fuel.

All the best,

Crumpp
Title: Spitfire Mk VIII
Post by: Angus on November 11, 2005, 04:35:39 PM
I may have some data on this, but the book is not at home so I'll have to go from memory.
"This" is from Crumpp i.e.:

"Even at the bottom end of FW-190A performance it is generally faster at lower altitudes than the Spitfire Mk XII.

Is this anecdotal evidence Guppy?"

Johnny Johnsson flew some little bit with Ray Harries. I think it was the XII rather than the XIV.
Since the 190's sometimes were timid to mix it properly (after the introduction of Griffon engined and boosted up Spits) they would allow the 190's to jump them. The Spits would break high and let the 190's zoom past then actually hunt them down. Downhill and pure power & speed chase.

I remember that Johnny thought that Harris must be mad to try this but it actually worked!

Book was "Wing leader"

edit: The perforfmance test of the XII on the spitfiretesting site is not really that impressive as far as I remember it. Does anyone have additional data?
Title: Spitfire Mk VIII
Post by: Guppy35 on November 11, 2005, 04:36:02 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
Interesting.

Calais/Somme Estuary is well within JG26's area and most likely would they would have been assigned any reconnasissance flight interception.

I show no activity on the 27th of April 1943.  However on the 23 April 1943 No. 41 squadron reconnasissance flight interception is specifically mentioned.  Obfw. Fritsch of the 5th Staffel led "offensive-defensive" patrols.  

No FW190's were lost and one "Spitfire" was claimed.  However the claim investigation of the crash site awarded credit for a "Mustang".

The Mustangs were not pursed as the patrol was low on fuel.

All the best,

Crumpp


Hmm.  Specific to the combat reports was a note that radio intercepts were made indicating a German aircraft down at the same time as the engagement.

the second XII was being fired at in the tail chase initially and was jinking like mad as he pulled away.

And of course there was clearly an engagement if the lead Spit XII suffered cannon and MG hits :)
Title: Spitfire Mk VIII
Post by: Crumpp on November 11, 2005, 05:55:46 PM
Quote
And of course there was clearly an engagement if the lead Spit XII suffered cannon and MG hits


Sure,

Very likely though it was not with a fighter variant Anton.  More likely it was with 11/JG54 or SKG 10 who were heavily involved in bombing raids on Britain.

All the best,

Crumpp
Title: Spitfire Mk VIII
Post by: Crumpp on November 11, 2005, 06:04:47 PM
Quote
Since the 190's sometimes were timid to mix it properly (after the introduction of Griffon engined and boosted up Spits) they would allow the 190's to jump them.


Spitfires make up 50% of the kills of many of the Western Experten:

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/spit.html

Which is very surprising when compared to some of the other allied fighters.

P-47:

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/thunderbolt.html

P-51:

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/mustang.html

P-38:

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/lightning.html

The FW-190 pilots I have spoken with all say the same thing.  They were not worried about any single allied fighter in the FW-190.

It was the large numbers of allied fighters that were worrisome.

All the best,

Crumpp
Title: Spitfire Mk VIII
Post by: Guppy35 on November 11, 2005, 06:40:18 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
Spitfires make up 50% of the kills of many of the Western Experten:

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/spit.html

Which is very surprising when compared to some of the other allied fighters.

P-47:

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/thunderbolt.html

P-51:

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/mustang.html

P-38:

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/lightning.html

The FW-190 pilots I have spoken with all say the same thing.  They were not worried about any single allied fighter in the FW-190.

It was the large numbers of allied fighters that were worrisome.

All the best,

Crumpp


Doesn't surprise me as they'd have been fighting Spits since 1940 where they'd have been seeing Jugs since 43 and 38s and Mustangs from 44.  Sheer numbers of Spits vs the others would make up for the numbers variance I'd  think.  Throw in the happy time for the 190 drivers when they were dealing with Spit IIs and Vs into late 42 and the world was theirs

Too bad it's not broken down into Spit variants.  Wonder how many were early Spits vs the Spit IX and later?
Title: Spitfire Mk VIII
Post by: Guppy35 on November 11, 2005, 06:47:18 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
I may have some data on this, but the book is not at home so I'll have to go from memory.
"This" is from Crumpp i.e.:

"Even at the bottom end of FW-190A performance it is generally faster at lower altitudes than the Spitfire Mk XII.

Is this anecdotal evidence Guppy?"

Johnny Johnsson flew some little bit with Ray Harries. I think it was the XII rather than the XIV.
Since the 190's sometimes were timid to mix it properly (after the introduction of Griffon engined and boosted up Spits) they would allow the 190's to jump them. The Spits would break high and let the 190's zoom past then actually hunt them down. Downhill and pure power & speed chase.

I remember that Johnny thought that Harris must be mad to try this but it actually worked!

Book was "Wing leader"

edit: The perforfmance test of the XII on the spitfiretesting site is not really that impressive as far as I remember it. Does anyone have additional data?


I tracked down JEJ during my Spit XII hunt because of that passage in Wing Leader.  He flew with the Tangmere Spit XII wing on November 17, 1943.   This was after the big day of October 20, 1943 when they got 9-10 for no loss.  They didn't score again until January and that was only a single kill by a 91 pilot.  The 109s and 190s quit playing after the 20th.

JEJ was kind enough to copy that logbook page for me.  Interesting that Ray Harries let him fly "RH" which was Ray Harries aircraft.

In Wing Leader the comment was that Harries led them under a formation of LW aircraft but they refused to come down.

(http://www.furballunderground.com/freehost/files/27/JEJLog.jpg)
Title: Spitfire Mk VIII
Post by: Squire on November 11, 2005, 08:23:26 PM
How is it surprising when most USAAF FGs didnt even enter the ETO with US built a/c untill late 1943-44? Whats the date for the P-51, Dec 43? 1st escorted raid by P-38s in the 8th AF was October 1943, 55th FG. RAF had been in action for over 3 1/2 years by then. I will mention the US 4th FG which was the USAs "pioneer FG" and they flew Spit Vs untill 43.

Ask any Bf 109, Spitfire, Tempest, F6F, F4U-1, P-47, Ki-84 or P-51 veteran and they will express the same level of confidence in their a/c. Fighter pilots were not by nature, timid people who fretted that their plane might be a few mph slower...Fw 190 pilots express the same level of confidence, no surprise as it was one of the wars finest fighters.  

As for your assertions that it was just a big "gang bang", I will throw some facts on that:

You can get the books if you like, "2nd TAF Vol.I" and "2nd TAF Vol.II" by Christopher Shores.

I will give some illustrative examples, again, I wont quote the entire works, much as I would like to...and I will paraphrase for brevity:

28 June 1944:

401 Sqn engages 20 109s and 20 190s S. of Caen.
411 Sqn engages 15 109s and 190s S. of Caen, and again later in the day, meet another similar sized group in the same area.
401 Sqn engages 12 190s later in the day.

-Thats some of the action.

RCAF Spits claimed 26 LW fighters, losing 4 a/c and 3 pilots, the -LWs own records indicate they lost 29 in the fighting- . No USAAF claims were made.

29 June 1944:

Similar fighting, with RAF/RCAF claiming 13 while losing 8, USAAF claiming 10 (in different sector). -LW own records indicate they lost 22-

30 June 1944:

441 Sqn engages a squadron of 109s near Argentan.
401 Sqn engages a squadron of 190s near Argentan-Falaise.

-Again, some of the action.

RAF/RCAF claimed 21, losing 4 fighters, the USAAF claimed 7 (in different sector) and the -LWs own records show they lost 22 in the fighting-

Several things are clear from reading about the fighting on the western front. Firstly, despite both air forces possessing large fighter contingents, much, if not most of the fighting was done "ambush style" with several squadrons involved on each side, and often with only flights and single squadrons attacking similar sized units. Allied fighters could easily be engaged with a larger enemy force in the air, despite possessing a numerical advantage overall, and that the LW suffered just as many serious reversals in combat as they dished out, despite the BBS mythology to the contrary...

F/L Kennedy (quoted from the 28th June combat):

"We were jumped by a squadron of Fw 190s out of the sun. A good old fashioned scrap followed right down to ground level. My new Spitfire IX was too much for a Focke Wulf pilot who stayed for the scrap. He had a good a/c but could not turn with a Spit IX, and when I got on his tail I knew I had him. One short burst and he was into the trees with a great flash of fire".

Happy Remembrance Day.
Title: Spitfire Mk VIII
Post by: Crumpp on November 11, 2005, 09:14:04 PM
Quote
As for your assertions that it was just a big "gang bang", I will throw some facts on that:


It's not my assertions Squire, its the guys who lived it.

Your quoting an action as seen from one allied squadron.  Very rarely in the last year of the war did the Luftwaffe encounter just one allied squadron.

Look at the respective air forces doctrine.  Ground attack missions always have a dedicated fighter escort.

Jadgdivision 5 threw everything they had that day to try and stop Montgomery's drive on Caen.  They flew 356 sorties as ground attack missions against the combined strength of the 2nd TAF and 8th Air Force covering the beaches.  The three RCAF Spitfire wings were there along with several P51 and P47 Groups.

All the best,

Crumpp
Title: Spitfire Mk VIII
Post by: Crumpp on November 11, 2005, 09:28:54 PM
Quote
The 109s and 190s quit playing after the 20th.


It most certainly was not because of the performance of the Spit XII.

If I was signifcantly outnumbered in the air and charged with defending the ground troops, I doubt I would lose all my altitude to come after some fighters.

More likely I would save it and try to find the ground attack units flying planes which could carry enough ordinance to do some damage.

All the best,

Crumpp
Title: Spitfire Mk VIII
Post by: Guppy35 on November 11, 2005, 09:42:38 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
It most certainly was not because of the performance of the Spit XII.

If I was outnumbered 10 to 1 in the air and charged with defending the ground troops, I doubt I would lose all my altitude to come after some fighters.

More likely I would save it and try to find the ground attack units flying planes which could carry enough ordinance to do some damage.

All the best,

Crumpp


I'd suggest it was both.  As the Spits performance caught up to the 190, any Spit bounced became more of a threat.  The odds weren't going to be as good that the 190 could totally control the fight.

The Spits were escorting bombers on the majority of the flights.  Looking at the logbooks for October 43-January 44, it's mainly escorts of USAAF Marauders and RAF Bostons and Mitchells.  The usual comment is "72 Marauders", or "36 Mitchells" etc.  The LW wasn't coming down to hit the bombers either.

Just as you talk about how 190 vets weren't worried about a single Allied fighter while flying the 190, the same would apply for the Spit IX and XII drivers as well as the Mustang, Jug and 38 drivers.  That confidence stuff plays a big role in how aggressive the pilots were.

I don't think there is any doubt that the Spit V drivers felt that lack of confidence when the 190 appeared and only got the confidence back with the arrival of the IX and the later Spits.
Title: Spitfire Mk VIII
Post by: Squire on November 11, 2005, 09:59:52 PM
There was a kind of fighter pilot in WW2 that never gave a worry about the enemy, they were the ones that were posted as missing in action.
Title: Spitfire Mk VIII
Post by: Crumpp on November 11, 2005, 10:08:43 PM
Quote
I'd suggest it was both.


Again,

It is not an assumption, feeling, my conclusion, or a guess.

The men who lived it say:  "I feared not allied fighter I could see in my Focke Wulf".  They also laugh if you talk about a "one on one" fight.  Generally speaking they were heavily outnumbered in the air in almost every engagement.

USAAF Operations on the 28 June 1944:

Quote
EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 445: 992 bombers and 638 fighters are dispatched to targets in France, Germany and Belgium; 2 bombers and 2 fighters are lost. 485 B-17s attack targets in France: 72 hit Laon/Couvron Airfield, 64 hit Juvincourt Airfield, 60 hit Laon/Athies Airfield, 36
hit Fismes bridge, 28 hit Denain/Prouvy Airfield, 24 hit targets of
opportunity, 20 hit Anizy le Chateau bridge, 19 hit Le Bourget Airfield and
18 hit the Dugny oil depot; 1 B-17s is lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 99
damaged; 2 airmen are WIA and 9 MIA. Of 378 B-24s, 331 hit Saarbrucken
marshalling yards, 11 hit Florennes/Juzaine Airfield and 1 hits Givet Bridge;
1 B-24 is lost and 125 damaged; 8 airmen are WIA and 10 MIA. Escort is
provided by 188 P-38s, 169 P-47s and 231 P-51s; they claim 1-0-0 Luftwaffe
aircraft; 1 P-47 and 1 P-51 are lost (pilots are MIA) and 2 P-51s damaged
beyond repair. About one-third of the escorting fighters afterward bomb and strafe transport targets, claiming 3 locomotives and an armored vehicle destroyed.
  30 of 50 P-47s fly a fighter-bomber mission against La Perthe Airfield
without loss.
  18 B-24s fly CARPETBAGGER missions in France.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 220+ fighters, based in France, attack railroad facilities, bridges, fuel and ammunition dumps, artillery,
troop concentrations, vehicles, and other targets;


Throw in 3 RCAF Spitfire wings and the 2nd TAF.......

356 sorties the Luftwaffe launched was not even a drop in the bucket towards a defense.

The day before, the 9th USAAF was able to launch 700+ fighters by itself!  

All the best,

Crumpp
Title: Spitfire Mk VIII
Post by: Crumpp on November 11, 2005, 10:27:37 PM
Quote
The Spits were escorting bombers on the majority of the flights. Looking at the logbooks for October 43-January 44, it's mainly escorts of USAAF Marauders and RAF Bostons and Mitchells. The usual comment is "72 Marauders", or "36 Mitchells" etc. The LW wasn't coming down to hit the bombers either.


Interesting because the Luftwaffe was clearly still dishing it out in that time period.  Granted they did not always attack every formation that intruded.  Doing so would have been a disaster.

In fact most Military Historians conclude the Luftwaffe still had air superiority over Europe during that time.  It was not until Feb-April 1944 timeframe that the air superiority passed to the allies.

I think you are trying to draw conclusions about individual aircraft performance from a tiny snapshot of the battlefield.  

Quote
Conversely, if he tries to defend everywhere, if he commits his forces piecemeal, if he fails to concentrate, he will lose -- and may even lose against a much smaller air force if the attacker outsmarts him.


http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/warden/wrdchp04.htm

All the best,

Crumpp
Title: Spitfire Mk VIII
Post by: Squire on November 11, 2005, 11:23:59 PM
Thats all fascinating, and has nothing to do with the specific engagements that I focused on, which were between individual RCAF fighter units and the LW over the NORMANDY battle front, not the 8th Air Force over Germany. 8th AF claims are not included, or discussed, the book details specific LW units engaged on the French front, against 2nd TAF specifically. The author includes USAAF claims made in the same area for a complete overview where applicable. It details specific combats, gives the locations, the strengths, and the units involved, both RAF and LW.

Quoting OOBs and total sortie rates for the Allies does little to counter any of that. Its just general background.

If 443 Sqn meets a staffel (or two) from JG/2 in a peice of sky over Caen at 1445 hrs on June 15th, it matters little to either what the on paper OOB is, the battle will likely last less than 5 minutes, with both  sides probably spending no more than 90 minutes in the air total. It hardly matters in that fight if the 8th AF has 900 a/c over Berlin 30 minutes later, or that Bomber Command is sortying Lancs for a night raid to Hannover, or that the 9th TAC is flying Jabo with P-47s 20 miles south of them, or that Coastal Commands Mossies are strafing ships off Norway, or what Churchill is mixing with his scotch at 10 Downing.
Title: Spitfire Mk VIII
Post by: Crumpp on November 11, 2005, 11:48:06 PM
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Thats all fascinating, and has nothing to do with the specific engagements that I focused on, which were between individual RCAF fighter units and the LW over the NORMANDY battle front, not the 8th Air Force over Germany.


Squire,

It shows that there was a lot more to the action than just a few RCAF squadrons.  The RCAF had three Spitfire Groups involved in that action.

The Luftwaffe units involved that day fought quite a few more fights than you present.  Since you cited the entire Luftwaffe losses for the day, I thought we should examine the entire battle that day.  It is relevant.

Hardly a case of the allies being outnumbered.

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It hardly matters in that fight if the 8th AF has 900 a/c over Berlin 30 minutes later,


Guess you did not read the part I highlighted about the several hundred 8th USAAF fighters joining the battle over beachheads.

In the "little" piece of sky the battles were fought were hundreds more allied fighters only a push of an RT xmit button away.  Which is exactly what the Luftwaffe veterans say happenend.  Generally speaking if they did happen to locally outnumber an allied unit in the air, it was not long before the air was swarming with other allied fighters who got the radio call.

That is the facts.  We correctly built up our strength to an overwhelming force and then applied it on the Luftwaffe.  Why some people want to paint a distorted picture is beyond me.

You actually picked one of the better days for the Luftwaffe as far as numbers go.  The majority of the 9th AF fighters were socked in due to weather and only 220+ got off the ground instead of the usual 700+.


All the best,

Crumpp
Title: Spitfire Mk VIII
Post by: Crumpp on November 12, 2005, 12:24:28 AM
Judging by the Luftwaffe claims for the day:

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JaFü II. Jagdkorps/Lfl. 3:

28.06.44 Uffz. Faltin: 5 5./JG 11 P-38 OG-OH at 7.500 m. [Tournai-Ath] 07.40-50 Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr.39

28.06.44 Hptm. Walter Krupinski: 192 Stab II./JG 11 P-38  NH-OH at 9.000 m. [Zottegem-Ath] 07.45 Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr.27

28.06.44 Ltn. Clemens Walterscheid 3./JG 2 Spitfire UT-2.3 at 1.000 m. [Caen] 09.27 Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr.158

28.06.44 Uffz. Erich Lindner: 2 7./JG 26 Spitfire  TT-9 at 3.2-3.500 m. [Bayeux-Caen] 11.21 Film C. 2027/II VNE: ASM

28.06.44 Obfhr. Wolfgang Schmitz: 6 Stab/JG 27 P-47 UU-1 at 1.200 [N.W. Caen] 11.35 Film C. 2027/II Anerk: ASM

28.06.44 Uffz. Knoblauch: 2 2./JG 1 Spitfire  UU Caen at 3.000 m. 17.20 Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr.49

28.06.44 Uffz. Fritz Rathofer: 8 3./JG 1 Spitfire  UU-1.2.4.5: 3.000 m. [Caen area] 17.25 Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr.55

28.06.44 Ltn. Hans-Gunnar Culemann: 14 7./JG 27 Mustang  UU-4 at 1.500 m. [S.W. Caen] 20.16 Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr.164

28.06.44 Ltn. Adalbert von Lipcsey: 7 1./JG 27 P-47  UT-2-3: 1.200 m. [Tilly-sur-Seules] 20.20 Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr.182

28.06.44 Uffz. Günther Wiegmann: 4 1./JG 27 P-47 UT-3: 1.000 m. [Tilly-sur-Seules] 20.22 Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr.183

28.06.44 Uffz. Fritz Rathofer: 9 3./JG 1 Spitfire  BT-7.8: 1.5-2.000 m. [Le Teilleul/Domfront] 21.36 Film C. 2027/II Anerk: ASM

28.06.44 Oblt. Hiebl: 8 1./JG 11 Spitfire  BT-7.9/CT 1: 1.500 m. [Le Teilleul 180°] 21.38 Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr.37

Supplemental Claims from Sources:

28.06.44 Obfhr. Karl-Otto Clauss: 2 Stab/JG 27 P-47 N.W.Caen 11.35 Reference: JG 27 List

28.06.44 Uffz. Rahner: 2 7./JG 51 Spitfire UU-1 to UU-5 Caen - Reference: JG 1 List f. 1211

28.06.44 Ofw. Jochim I./JG 11 Spitfire  BT-7 to CT-1 Domfront-Mayenne - Reference: JG 11 List f. 1211

28.06.44 Oblt. Raimund Koch: 22 * 8./JG 3 B-17 - - Reference: JG 3 List f. 504



Looking at the variety of aircraft encountered and location (Caen), I would say yours or the authors contention that the few cited RCAF squadrons inflicted the entire daily loss of the Luftwaffe on 28 June 1944 is highly suspect.

Without a doubt there were plenty of allied fighters in the sky.

All the best,

Crumpp
Title: Spitfire Mk VIII
Post by: Guppy35 on November 12, 2005, 12:28:55 AM
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Originally posted by Crumpp
Interesting because the Luftwaffe was clearly still dishing it out in that time period.  Granted they did not always attack every formation that intruded.  Doing so would have been a disaster.

In fact most Military Historians conclude the Luftwaffe still had air superiority over Europe during that time.  It was not until Feb-April 1944 timeframe that the air superiority passed to the allies.

I think you are trying to draw conclusions about individual aircraft performance from a tiny snapshot of the battlefield.  

 

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/warden/wrdchp04.htm

All the best,

Crumpp


I guess it depends on where the air superiority was. Clearly the USAAF was paying a heavy price with the 17s and 24s going to Germany at that time.  

I'm not trying to say one plane was superior to the other and that it impacted on the engagements.  I don't know that it's fair to say that the LW had air superiority over France.  I'd guess that Allied fighter range dictated that to some degree along with numbers.

That the Spit XII guys could go on 15-20 escort missions a month during that time frame and not see LW fighters does say something about what was going on though, wouldn't you agree?  Obviously because I've focused on the XII, it's the resource I have most handy in terms of pilots logbooks and mission records too.  

I can say, much as you say regarding the 190 drivers, is that the Spit XII drivers I got to know  saw it as the better of the two aircraft, whether by the numbers it was true or not.
Title: Spitfire Mk VIII
Post by: Guppy35 on November 12, 2005, 12:29:55 AM
BTW, lets please not do the air superiority argument again.  That one was a real pain last time :)

Kinda like everytime the Battle of Britain comes up around here
Title: Spitfire Mk VIII
Post by: Crumpp on November 12, 2005, 01:02:44 AM
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I can say, much as you say regarding the 190 drivers, is that the Spit XII drivers I got to know saw it as the better of the two aircraft, whether by the numbers it was true or not.


All I am pointing out is that the FW190 pilots felt the same about their aircraft.  

Speaking of the numbers, more than one former FW-190 pilot has told me "I don't care what your numbers say, My Focke was the fastest thing in the sky at treetop level."  

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I guess it depends on where the air superiority was.


I don't want to get into that discussion either.  My date was picked from the USSBSR.
 
As for the pilot anecdotes, I think it is very easy when looking at an event in the weeds to forget about the surrounding forest.

All the best,

Crumpp
Title: Spitfire Mk VIII
Post by: Squire on November 12, 2005, 01:16:55 AM
Im not painting anything a certain way, its you who gets all knotted up every time somebody dares cite an example of a Spit unit doing well. I said nothing about  "the allies fought outnumbered all the time, look I have proof". Show me where I said that, or implied that.  I simply illustrated some good combats they had in France.

Here is another good day, July 28th 1944, 2nd TAF lost 3 Spits.

"Altogether Spitfire pilots had claimed 25 destroyed, 3 probs and 27 damaged, the Mustang pilots of 65 Sqn adding one destroyed, 1 prob, and 1 damaged. US claims on this date ammounted to just 2 Bf 109s. II Jagdkorps lost at least 20 fighters possibly 23, JG2, JG3, JG 26, JG27 and JG53 all suffering multiple losses."

One excerpt: "401 Sqn undertook a sweep during which 24 Fw190s and Bf 109s were met east of Caen around 1550". - No other units were reported in the fight. When they were, the combat AARs mentioned them.

Nowhere in the combats outlined do they mention hordes of P-51s magically coming to their rescue that day (or any US fighters at all, in fact, in their area), nor did they in my previous examples either.  

In any case, like I say, you can get the books yourself, if you have a problem with them write Christopher Shores I guess, Im not the author.
Title: Spitfire Mk VIII
Post by: Angus on November 12, 2005, 01:50:18 AM
Hehe this:
"They also laugh if you talk about a "one on one" fight. Generally speaking they were heavily outnumbered in the air in almost every engagement."

I remember some one-on-ones but truly they were rather the exception.
I also remember a squadron engaging a "gaggle of some 50 fighters or so" - P51 attacking LW fighters.

You know I've been peeking into the 24th of June 1944. Heavy fightings broke out into individual fights, and I know of some 1 on 1 and 1 on 2 engagements that day. Turning at treetop level and such.
Title: Spitfire Mk VIII
Post by: Crumpp on November 12, 2005, 01:53:30 AM
Quote
its you who gets all knotted up every time somebody dares cite an example of a Spit unit doing well. I said nothing about "the allies fought outnumbered all the time, look I have proof". Show me where I said that, or implied that. I simply illustrated some good combats they had in France.


BS Squire.  You posted information trying to back the performance implications of Guppy anecdotes.

Your information obviously only takes into account one sides claims as it does not line up with any Luftwaffe data.    It has been my experience usually turn out differently when the other sides information is included.

Facts are if the Luftwaffe or any airforce for that matter are able to concentrate their forces to achieve numerical superiority on the correct target, they will win the battle.  Does not have anything to do with individual aircraft performance unless there is a huge technology difference.  That simply did not exist then unless we want to start discussing Jets.

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As for your assertions that it was just a big "gang bang",


It's not my assertion, it is the doctrine of most of the worlds Air Forces.  The Force that achieves the "big gang bang" first wins.

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BBS mythology to the contrary...


The "mythology" is your own invention and does not exist.   Maybe if you were not so paranoid someone might upset your game fantasy, you would be more inclined to discuss instead of attack.

All the best,

Crumpp
Title: Spitfire Mk VIII
Post by: Squire on November 12, 2005, 03:55:17 AM
If you dont like the info in the book, get a freaking tissue.  

Its your little LW fantasy that they fought every single engagement in WW2 outnumbered, even in the BoB, and when somebody points out an actual source that doesnt agree with that you come apart.

Email your good buddy at the USAF museum again, im sure he can set us all straight.
Title: Spitfire Mk VIII
Post by: Angus on November 12, 2005, 04:26:45 AM
Ahem gentlemen.
From Crumpp:
"BS Squire. You posted information trying to back the performance implications of Guppy anecdotes.

Your information obviously only takes into account one sides claims as it does not line up with any Luftwaffe data."

I have two things to say about this.
Firstly, Guppy has always been very careful and solid in his postings. There is nobody on the forum I'd trust better.
Secondly, there is always something to consider when the LW data does not match other data or anecdotes. However don't fall into the pit of taking the LW as 100% correct at all times. Sometimes anecdotes support the data, sometimes not. If you are hinting at the BoB well.....make a thread like ORDER OF BATTLE IN THE BOB, and come slug it out ;)
Title: Spitfire Mk VIII
Post by: Crumpp on November 12, 2005, 09:59:39 AM
Quote
Its your little LW fantasy that they fought every single engagement in WW2 outnumbered, even in the BoB, and when somebody points out an actual source that doesnt agree with that you come apart.


A sure sign of intellectual bankruptcy is personal attacks.  

Don't bother justifying your swiftness to insinuate that anyone who studies Luftwaffe history must be biased.

Please point out where someone claims they fought every single engagement outnumbered??

In 1944 the fought the majority of engagements outnumbered and some of them heavily outnumbered.

Again, read up on Air Power Doctrine.  

It's not my assertion; it is the doctrine of most of the worlds Air Forces. The Force that achieves the "big gang bang" first wins.

All I called into question was your claim of the a few RCAF Spitfire units inflicting the entire days casualties for the Luftwaffe.
 

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On June 6, 1944 the Allies opened the second front in Europe by landing in Normandy. The long-awaited operation "Overlord" saw 36 divisions land on the beaches of Normandy. They were supported by almost 11,000 combat aircraft! The first day alone saw the Allied air forces fly 14,674 combat sorties, the German reaction being only 319


http://members.aol.com/falkeeins/Sturmgruppen/June6.html

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The Luftwaffe’s immediate response to the landings was “barely perceptible.”34 Indeed, the German air effort during the first 24 hours added up to only 319 sorties, thus dashing the initial hope of defeating the invasion during the first crucial hours.35 Even so, the movement of Reich defense-fighter units had some success, with 200 aircraft arriving during the first 36 hours. By D-day plus seven, over 1,000 German aircraft directly opposed the landing.36 As well as fending for themselves, they had to provide escort for the lumbering trimotor transports that hauled ground personnel and spare parts.37 Real troubles for these aircraft began after their arrival since Allied air attacks had already damaged many of their airfields. The German fighter force was drawn into a losing battle to retain its operational ready-rates in the face of intense enemy air activity.


http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/apj/apj03/win03/muller.html

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If you are hinting at the BoB well.


Please take just a second or two Angus to actually read the thread before you post some nonsense.  You obviously have no clue what the discussion is even about.

The BoB is another thread.  I am still waiting on the PRO to send me those documents the USAF Logistical Journal referenced about the BoB and I will hold my comments until they arrive.  

That thread has reached an impasse until then.  

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Firstly, Guppy has always been very careful and solid in his postings.


Sure and it easy for the causal reader or one who does not absorb what is infront of him, to take anecdotal evidence as proof in all situations.  Great example is your last post.  You wrote of bunch of disassociated babble that has nothing to do with the conversation except to attack. Please point out where I mention the BoB?

I simply pointed out that not only did the FW-190 pilots have the same level of confidence in their aircraft but examining the numbers is also in the Focke Wulf's favor in this case.  Why?  It is scientifically tied to the designs of the two aircraft.  I also thought it might be interesting to try and figure out exactly which LW unit the Spitfire Mk XII’s encountered.  Obviously the “Spitfans”, and I exclude Guppy from this; have no interest in that line of thinking.

When I first posted, I had just returned from the TA where a couple of young English players had been telling me all about the Spitfire performance being so superior it was able to take on hordes of 109's and win.

They read it on the BBS in one of the Spitfire threads so it must be true.

:confused:

If we act like jerks to anyone who disagrees or is not a fanclub member, pretty soon nobody will disagree!  Then we will be right.....RIGHT??

:aok

All the best,

Crumpp