Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: MrSiD on January 07, 2001, 06:37:00 PM
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Heh, looks like the 3.0 will still be a distant dream for the BrandW folks.. What happened to "we're building the new engine, can't make version upgrades to old engine" crap? Does this mean that 3.0 is in serious trouble and wont be released..ever?
FYI
Cut from AGW:
Jay Littman planned and conducted a WarBirds 2.77 meeting. I’m moving forward with deploying WB 2.77 into paid production.
WarBirds 2.77 Punch list:
*** Bla bla bla.. list of bugs that should have been fixed 1 year ago. Not to mention the old limitations can't be fixed...
I've been hanging around in h2h all this time waiting to see this marvelous 3.0 untill I make my decision between the 2 sims.. And this move makes me think they've been only pulling my chain. This smells like CPR for 2.xx as a last resort to keep customers.
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It will be a fine day when we can pitch Warbirds on the scrap heap with Confirmed Kill by EIDOS, and all the other world beaters.
As for iEN, well that's another story. Wild Bill Yonder and all that...
X2
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Anyone remember T.A.S.?
About 2-3 years ago..it was while I was in WB, I wasn't one of the people who signed up for the "Beta" that never happened for it.
Apparently the program never actually existed and it was a huge scam? I never got the whole story.
I remember all the people talking about those CK screenshots that came out every few months and how it was gonna "kill WB" when it came out next month..for about three years :-)
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Ouch..you guys are sad. Why are we wishing the demise of a co-ww2 flight sim? Get a picture of reality...WHAT ELSE IS THERE? There's no gaurantee AH is gonna be around forever, and why is it we are so hostile towards Warbirds or any other ww2 sim. I say it's sad. We don't have the luxury of losing the attention of companies who are putting forth an effort to create a ww2 sim, be it good or bad. I was looking forward to giving WB 3.0 a try. Besides, competition is good for me, good for you, good for AH.
fscott
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Right on fscott!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I'm guilty myself...
Although in retrospect, many of us feel as though we were hosed by WB.
<S>IC
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Erm.. Warbirds does not belong in the same category as Eidos' "Confirmed Kill". Irony of the naming asside.
Warbirds re-defined on-line flight simming. It demands respect for that alone. Its demise will have nothing to do with the game itself, nor with its community. It will simply be a result of bad management at the corperate level. Its sad really.
Do I think AH is better? Yes I do. But I realize from where AH came.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by Torgo:
Anyone remember T.A.S.?
About 2-3 years ago..it was while I was in WB, I wasn't one of the people who signed up for the "Beta" that never happened for it.
Apparently the program never actually existed and it was a huge scam? I never got the whole story.
I remember all the people talking about those CK screenshots that came out every few months and how it was gonna "kill WB" when it came out next month..for about three years :-)
TAS I think was started by the very Voss that frequents these boards. I'm not sure whatever happened to that, except that I read some interviews with Voss who told the web mags how nicely it was coming along and how he was leading the bug squash effort.
then POOF.
I heard a rumor that the screenshots were fakes, generated with 3D Studio or something.
Maybe Voss can fill us in...
X2
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
Erm.. Warbirds does not belong in the same category as Eidos' "Confirmed Kill". Irony of the naming asside.
Warbirds re-defined on-line flight simming. It demands respect for that alone. Its demise will have nothing to do with the game itself, nor with its community. It will simply be a result of bad management at the corperate level. Its sad really.
Do I think AH is better? Yes I do. But I realize from where AH came.
AKDejaVu
Well, from a strictly historical standpoint, I disagree.
Air Warrior redefined what a flight sim could be, it was the first.
HT wrote the film viewer for AW, and then went on to start ICI. He did Warbirds, which started as Confirmed Kill. CK was fun, somebody posted a copy until Pyro asked that it be taken down. It had the first fractal like landscape and the haze, it blew us away at the time.
HT dumped that engine when he fell out with the CK people, and used the engine that is Warbirds. WB had many firsts. The CVs, the excellent artwork by Frying Tiger and others. It rocked.
Then HT sold ICI to Wild Bill Stealey. HT started working on Dawn of Aces, and some space sim, which I never played. I'm sure under pressure to diversify the income and "catch the wave", as if the people he was working with understood the community.
HT parted ways with Wild Bill, and immediately began working on AH. Well, perhaps not immediately, but soon after. Pyro went with HT. Others, like gunjam, left, and some went to Cornered Rat, like Mo.
Now, say what you will, but the historical evidence here points pretty strongly that HT has been the driving force behind innovation. I see squat on WB3 from them. I dont think 3.0 ever sees the light of day.
I've seen and heard ALOT over the years. Bryan Walker came on Usenet. Bryan was some manager from EIDOS, and would talk up Confirmed Kill and show us screenshots. This aroused the Usenet Flight-Sim community, which makes this crowd look tame. He took alot of heat after awhile. I told him then that CK would never see the light of day. I was right.
I don't want no competition for HTC's product. I'm sure HT is always interested to see a Jane's WW2 Fighters or a Sturmovik or a B-17 II come out, to see the state of the industry.
I also know that WW2 Flight sims are their passion, and it shows up in AH. I'm not worried that if Warbirds and Wild Bill go broke (awwwww) and AH is the only game in town, that HT will then take 2 months and go to Bermuda and not work on AH.
X2
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IEN canned WildBill Stealy many many months ago.
Heard HS mention on AGW that Stealy formed some other company and rented office space in the same building as Ien. Has an office next to HS.
Say what you want the guys got balls IMO. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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I wrote a letter, to Warbirds folk not to long ago to ask about billing and such and they replyed 2 weeks later, with something like "rates are fixed noone gets special treatment" What I had asked was if there were and different payment options and thats what I get back, in other words I hope they go under, they are rude.
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My post was not meant to be hostile against WB - I had big hopes regarding to 3.0 and I left a huge bunch of mates back there..
I miss them still. The way that 3.0 development has set everything else aside for months and months, and the fact that now all of the sudden they DO have time for fixes to 2.xx leaves me the taste of being screwed. Why didn't they show this interest for paying customers already months ago when it still mattered? What they did instead was giving fake hopes for people about launching a completely new engine in the 'near future.'
I got so tired about the different tweaks in WB modeling in the old engine + the fact that 3.0 never seemed to come out that I canceled my account. Told them I'll be back when 3.0 will be released.. That day still waits to be seen.
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I read the same post as you did MrSid, the one where HotSeat gives a sitrep and happily throws in the news about 2.77.
Okay, so they didn't have time to fix the bugs in WB2.xx until just now because they were "busy" with WB3. Where's WB3? And now you are going to finally fix a few things in WB2.xx? (http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/s/cwm/erm.gif)
Well, excellent news there.. Although I'd think the paying customers would like to see WB3 over a revamped WB2.xx which HTC built oh so many years ago. No, judging by the replies in that thread they are more interested in the 4 or 5 "bug fixes" that will be incorporated. (http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/s/cwm2/cwm13.gif)
Most companies when developing software tend to push forward when they are set on a goal, but these guys must not understand what progress means. They tell the customers "Oh we don't have time to work on WB2.xx anymore, WB3 has priority." Then they wait for everyone to forget that and release something that I could do in Paint Shop Pro in about an hour that they call WarPaint or something like that. The customers think it's the neatest thing since sliced bread, although they still can't fly 'em they're occupied with painting 'em. (http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/s/cwm2/eek7.gif)
Well I guess that's what you get when you put your faith in a group of programmers whose skills are yet to be proven. HTC built WB2.xx and iEN is sure doing a fine job of occasionally cleaning up a few odds and ends, but still I have yet to see any form of WB3 in compiled code on my hard drive waiting for a test drive.
Break out the KY Jelly fellas, you know it's comin'. (This is a post made in angst and absolute hatred toward iEN for having screwed me before. *NOT* at the customer's of WB or the program itself!!!)
No matter how good WB3 is if/when it comes out, I wouldn't even send iEN a flaming bag of dog crap to pay for it.
-SW
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TAS (Tactical Aero Squadro) was never real.
Around June/July 1997 Paul "Voss" Hinds got the backing of a few small investor and started boasting about a great new SIM he was making. He told more than a few tall tales (some of which a certain other game designer of infamy has made also) most of which turned out to be nothing more than lies. He said he was in the USAF, yet no one could find a record of his service, he claimed to have flown dozens of warbirds at times and in places that just could not have happened. He claimed a PHD or two, and generally said just about whatever he could to market himself.
He started spreading screenshots of his new game, and got hundred of beta testers to sign up. He had them form virtual squadrons, decide on callsigns and made huge promises. Eventually people began asking when they could actually see the game that they had *PAID* to beta test (never a good sign)....and they asked again....and more people asked. It soon became apparent that somthing was amiss, and before long it all fell appart.
In the end it all faded away, and the name Paul Hinds fell from the thoughts of everyone.
There was a very brief re-appearance of Paul Hinds attempts to create a SIM in Febuary 1999, as he looked for money for his new project, but by now any support he once had was gone.
In 1998 there were rumors of Mr Hinds having a brain tumor causing his erratic lying, but whatever the case, it was apparent that he was having some type of mental problems. It was a bad thing for sims, a bad thing for many sim players and certainly a bad thing for Mr Hinds, whatever the reasons, lets hope he is better now.
Here is the only piture I have of the alleged sim. The screenshots were faked using 3D rendering software and photoshop, there never actually was a game.
(http://home.tampabay.rr.com/strategy/tas3.gif)
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Ah.....
All the T.A.S. stuff I'd heard third-hand but it turns out everything I'd heard was correct. I'd not heard that you had to pay to sign up for the BETA. I had heard that this Hinds guy was trying to get large cash "donations" essentially for computer equipment.
Man, what a fiasco :-).
Essentially, for the last half-decade, in the realistic on-line massively multiplayer flight-sim market, the only people I've seen produce what they say they're gonna produce in a playable, timely fashion are the Pyro/HT team.
I know a lot of the WWiionline guys are great guys. WBs, I played for years and left when HT and Pyro left, I have no real sense of this Hotseat Character.
But keep in mind that CK actually was farther along before it croaked than either WB 3.0 or WWiionline, as best I can tell.
And I'm awfully suspicious of WWiionline. Those guys are promising the moon and stars. I've started reading that BBS the last couple weeks..what a hoot and a half. The guys picking names and starting squads and giving themselves grandiose titles (everyone apparently is a General commanding a Panzer Division..I bet 90% of them end up a platoon commander in the MPs or something when the game comes out :-) is frighteningly reminiscent of T.A.S. (NOT that I am suggesting in any way an overall parallel...I'm sure WWiionline is a real product :-).
One wonders where WB would be if they'd never made the decision to sell ICI to Imagic and HT and Pyro were still there.
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You had to pay to become a beta tester for TAS? At least I don't recall having done so. Damn maybe I was conned into some other TAS beta test. Man I was cheated! Uh wait. so was everyone else...
all the CIA missions in my F-16, having scorpion stinger under toe nail and stuff really makes you forget things.
// fats
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Originally posted by Torgo:
Anyone remember T.A.S.?
About 2-3 years ago..it was while I was in WB, I wasn't one of the people who signed up for the "Beta" that never happened for it.
Apparently the program never actually existed and it was a huge scam? I never got the whole story.
I remember all the people talking about those CK screenshots that came out every few months and how it was gonna "kill WB" when it came out next month..for about three years :-)
I remember somethink like this in 96 that scammed alot of Air warrior and Warbirds players. Think Doom lost a few thousand dollars investing into it.
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Mayhem 33rd S.G.
"Destination anywhere, so far gone, I'm already there!"
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Believe it of not, we that fly AH need Warbirds 3.0 to be successful.
Competition is good!! It will keep HTC on thier toes!!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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bingo swager (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Guys:
Please read what 2.77 is. It has nothing to do with 3.0. At least you can get some of the published facts correct if nothing else. They can be read over on AGW so no point in posting them here.
2.77 is a good thing for WBs but a bit overdue, but since we don't have 3.0 just yet it is a necessary patch.
Don't understand all the hostility I keep reading here about WBs, kinda of a defensive reaction I guess. At least Swager and Citabria understand that it is a good thing to keep both Sims alive.
On the TAS thing, you did not have to pay to be a beta tester, you did need to sign a non-disclosure but that was it. The fact that some players decided to invest and then lost that investment is another issue. I doubt Paul "Voss" Hines wants to revist that mess. It became a very ugly scene on the Flight Sim BBS's and not worth reopening IMO.
Ram1
[This message has been edited by Ram1 (edited 01-08-2001).]
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Ram1, most that dislike Warbirds dislike the folks running it,not the community..please don't confuse the two. Some have valid complaints, others simply vent frustration. I continue to propagate Warbirds finer sides to potential sim pilots when I demo both Aces High and Warbirds since the only bad experience I've had with WB's is the connections and continuance of credit card payments after I had canceled my account, but those can be easily overlooked considering the years of enjoyment I had in return.
There is room for both sims, and WW2, as well as Olegs new sim coming up, I'd rather have a wide variety of choices rather than it be limited by a few, that can only mean a better product for the consumer.
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Air Warrior redefined what a flight sim could be, it was the first.
I know air-warrior was the first. That's why WB "re-defined". Air-warrior gave you a taste of virtual combat. WB gave you a taste of semi-realistic flight model virtual combat. It took on-line play from being a game to being a simulation.
For that it deservers some respect.
As a side note... for anyone that believes that 2.77 is a gift from iEN, read the updates very carefully. Is one of them a necessety? I don't know... "14. Authorization Software (the death of the iLZ folks)". Oh yea... since we are patching it.. why not fix a few bugs that we've known about for several months. That is what is called "bad management".
AKDejaVu
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iLZ is being deep-sixed now because the part of the business that drove its inclusion (the card games and so on) have been downgraded in importance internally.
As far as I can tell, the Warbirds team never liked the iLZ, and they're as eager as us to see the back of it now they're allowed to ditch it.
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The only other pay to play WWII flight sim I've ever been on was Air Warrior. I played it for three years under a couple different handles. I did AW on AOL, then Gamestorm for AW2 and 3. FR on all of them. I got very tired of the stagnant flight model. It looked like there was so much more potential for AW with all the planes they already had and a large community. They never really did anything with it. The flight model was basic in FR compared to AH. On top of that (in the time I was on there anyway) there was no discussion of taking the game in any new directions. It was the same old same old. So I left. I took me a few months of looking and I found AH and I really like it. I see these guys trying to add a variety of different avenues of play. We have planes, boats, and GV's and I only see them wanting to add more. That's what its all about. At the moment anyway, their not setting back fat, dumb, and happy with what they've done. The perk points thing is a good example of there efforts to try to keep a balanced gaming environment. It may not work as they planed it but damn it their out there doing something to try to please there customers. I get the impression that their listening to us and trying to way our requests against balancing the arena <S> to their efforts. I hope they never set back like AW and say "...and it was good." (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Don't know if this has been stated above, but before you start trashing WB, remember who made it. Hitech.
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Originally posted by Ram1:
Guys:
-snip-
On the TAS thing, you did not have to pay to be a beta tester, you did need to sign a non-disclosure but that was it. The fact that some players decided to invest and then lost that investment is another issue. I doubt Paul "Voss" Hines wants to revist that mess. It became a very ugly scene on the Flight Sim BBS's and not worth reopening IMO.
Ram1
Ram1, I always knew that was you! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) <S>
I will respond to this ONCE and once only. The infamous DOOM was a real Napoleon type that attempted to push the production of TAS way too fast. I read where he claimed to have lost $73k in investments. B*llsh*t!
Doom supplied a refurbished system that was never up to the task. That machine died three times during the process of game creation. On top of that he paid a total of $300 in reimbursements. Ask any game creator out there what he could do with that!
I have never canvassed for supporters. I have never panned for money, either. I *may* actually produce a game, someday. I fully expect to be sued for it! No one ever forwarded any financial support of any kind (other then Doom's crap). I accepted no investments.
Two-thirds of the production team, and talent I have since trained in things like sound creation, modelling, textures, and the like, are currently working on other games for other companies. Many of the ideas that were discussed on the TAS BBS have since been incorporated into other games in violation of the non-disclosure agreement. I couldn't care less.
So, the imagined *injury* to the simming community is just that. Sims benefited from the BBS discussion. I have even seen some of those ideas in this game (AH). In HT's case, though, I believe it is a case of natural evolution. He's one smart cookie! In other cases, though, it is obvious that beta team members violated their NDA. No one seems too worried about that!
As to vaporware, DOOM's lawyer served us that we never release the game. Although I doubt he could make it stick, he attempted to forbid me to create flight sims altogether. My lawyer informed me that the title "Battle of Britain" would not be a good idea. So be it.
As to my character I don't care if you think I'm a horse thief! That aside, the only injury anyone suffered was disappointment.
So, if you weren't there, and even if you were, please refrain from commenting on things you have no knowledge of. For the past two years I have been hanging out with guys 'a cut above' this crap. Most of them know who the horses' *ss was. I think the rest of the guys on the BT were smoking crack! I have never heard so much scat in all my life! For a time, not a day went by that another extrapolation of BS came about from someone not 'in the know.' Give some guys a microphone...
It's interesting that the guys that have actually met me rallied around me throughout all of this. Hell, still fly with me and support every endeavor of mine.
I owe an apology to only two men. Both of them past squaddies. Jungo, and Toad. To both of them I am most humbly sorry. Please forgive me. It won't happen again.
I am finished here. I shall not respond to further rants, insults, or comments. I expect everything I wrote to be twisted and manipulated into more crap. Drop it!
"I'm a dot..."
Voss
[This message has been edited by Voss (edited 01-08-2001).]
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Never mind. If WB3 doesn't come out, it'll be obvious why it didn't. If it does come out, I hope you like the taste of crow (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
P.S. I think you may have some issues over here that might be a tad more important than the status of a WB patch...
[This message has been edited by jedi (edited 01-08-2001).]
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My money will still be on Air Warrior IV. Provided EA lets them ditch that 14 year old code and Reality engine. I remember moggy making a point that there was still cobol in it.
Theres also WWII online but thats a "I will beleive it when I see it" game.
I hope they do get warbirds III out and I hope Warbirds stays alive even if Ien Goes tits up. Mabey they guys that mad mig alley and battle of britian will buy it ... beets EA or ::Shudder:: Microsnot.
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Mayhem 33rd S.G.
"Destination anywhere, so far gone, I'm already there!"
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I hope WB thrives. I left it because it had become the kind of gameplay that I had no interest in and because it was getting so long in the tooth with so many features that needed to be fixed and no hope of any fix anytime soon. I didn't buy the "3.0" any day now" 6 months ago. I claimed then that it wouldn't be out till "next year" (2001) and was slammed on the board for negative vibes and exageration...
Still... WB keeps a type of player happy that I have no interest in. If it folds, those guys will come here and ask that AH be ruined too.
Hving said that.... and having been around a while.... I will say that... Things change. WB may change into something that tickles my fancy or AH into something that I can't stand.... In either case, it's best to have somewhere that poor ol harmless,fat, bald toothless lazs can go to.
lazs
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My money will still be on Air Warrior IV.
LOL! No bias there eh?
Every trial of AWx has resulted in a prompt uninstall of the game. My main mistake was playing Warbirds before Air Warrior. The truth is, AW went a slightly different route than WB.. and later AH. They'd have to do a hell of a lot more than they've shown for the past 4 years to get me to put money on them.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
LOL! No bias there eh?
Every trial of AWx has resulted in a prompt uninstall of the game. My main mistake was playing Warbirds before Air Warrior. The truth is, AW went a slightly different route than WB.. and later AH. They'd have to do a hell of a lot more than they've shown for the past 4 years to get me to put money on them.
AKDejaVu
Past 4? dude it's been the same game for 13 years, right down to the code. the bigest changes have been adding aircraft and light changes to the graohics engine. the bigest change from awdos to awMV was from aw4w to awII where the made light changes to the interface and some light changes to the graphics. they bitmap over the top of it for 3d and you have awIII. there have been no major changes to air warrior deep down in its guts it's the same as it was in 1987. They can't keep the game alive any longer they have to rebuild the game from the ground up.
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Mayhem 33rd S.G.
"Destination anywhere, so far gone, I'm already there!"
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My money will still be on Air Warrior IV
Read what you said before.. read what you posted after that. You're going in circles.
If your money is on AW4.. what are you basing that bet on? Surely not on anything I've seen in the last 4 years. You claim the same has been happening for the last 13. So.. once again.. why would you make that bet?
No bias eh?
AKDejaVu
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Guess your right Iam biased. I spent more time in air warrior then anyother game. I was a game op, I was a CM, and Ive done the Con thingy. I was there when AW4 and Jetwarrior where first mentioned. I'am hoping this time around the do what they say and start from the ground up. Just like I wount go back for AWMV (3.5) if AW4 doesn't step up then i wount be their either. Every thing else has been improvements on the same game. aw4 is suppose to be a brand new from the ground up game. My money sure as the hell wasn't on AWMV. But if I had to bet I would put my money on AW4 being "the game" to compete against AH Specially IF Warbirds III goes vaporwhare. WWII online has a good chance but I will beleive it when i see it.
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Mayhem 33rd S.G.
"Destination anywhere, so far gone, I'm already there!"
[This message has been edited by Mayhem (edited 01-08-2001).]
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Mayhem. I was there for tha talk aboutAW:V and also AW:4. And that's about all it amounts to right now. AW:V was scrapped by EA and there's not even talk about AW:4.
Waiting for AW-4 to come out (and hoping it will amount to anything more than being a FighterAce III) is the same as the poor sod who keeps muttering, "Just wait! My ship will come in...... some day."
And if it DOES come out, someday, one could only uselessly hope that they would offer it on something a bit more improved than the old defunct Gamestorm platform and it's inbred environment. For it could be the best thing since sliced bread, but at $10/mo and being DorkDudez heaven it won't pull in anyone but the Air Marshall Generalisimo Oldman Rags et al types.
I predict that due to the EA connection with AOL that AW-4 will be an Uber "RR" game choice right alongside Bop The Bunny and Where in the World Is Kelton.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-Westy
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 01-08-2001).]
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WBs 2.77
Why hasnt 3.0 been released yet? Its been over two (2) freekin years!
I knew it would take some time for the new crew at iEN to ramp up but this is fediddleing rediculous.
I will say one thing jedi, cabby, striglr and other associated types: Your loyalty to iEN and the tired outdated v2.76 is farking amazing in view of the way they have treated you fellaz!
Good luck!
Yeager
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Originally posted by Voss:
I am finished here. I shall not respond to further rants, insults, or comments. I expect everything I wrote to be twisted and manipulated into more crap. Drop it!
Voss
[This message has been edited by Voss (edited 01-08-2001).]
Well, from that rant, there's not much to twist.
Can I ask a few questions:
Can you name members of the production team that went on to work for other companies, and who those companies are?
Can you post a copy of the injunction that bars you from releasing the game? If not, at least a letter from DOOM's lawyer saying so?
I'm just curious if there's an ounce of truth in anything you posted or whether you make Derek Smart look like an amateur.
X2
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A word about iEN.
There was and most likely still is two kind of people regarding WarBirds:
- suits
- developers
The suits have no knowledge or understanding about WarBirds. You can easily understand that, they are the "big money" folks. In the eternal hunt of money they have neglected the development team and refused them resources and possibilities in making the old engine better, developing WB3 faster and serving the community. All this IMHO, to my understanding what I've read.
Now the latest turmoil in the iEN company has been rather horrible. The dot.com crash has left company vulnerable. Big problem now is that they're making too little money from the other sources of iEN and got too much staff, that WarBirds can right now support.
I'm sure most of you people flying AH would like the WB _developer_ team. Or most of them. They have some real dedicated people who want to make a great sim but who must also carry on supporting years old engine, and keep fixing bugs that the _old team's_ code still has. And please note, I have never ever seen any of the WB development team say a bad word about AH or Hitechcreations. Only praise.
I think that just for those fine people developing WB3 they deserve success. ANd Hitech Creations deserves success. WW2O just as well! We need competition and we need things to choose from.
I've seen many softer words lately in both the AH and WB boards about each other. Understanding, friendly talk. After all, we're all here for same thing: WW2 aviation. SOmeone drives Ford, other one Opel. It depends on driver what he likes. I don't fly AH, I've tried it many times and saw it was not for me but hey, that is my choise and I have nothing against those who decide otherwise.
So let's have a group hug and wish everybody well?
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VLeLv Icebreakers
Überfinns Perkele
http://www.compart.fi/icebreakers
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Well, actually, I hate to butt my head in here, but I've followed this thread from the moment I woke up this morning.
After seeing the various accusations against Voss, I was curious to see what he'd say in response. Up until his reply, I felt much the same as everyone else seemed to (well, there was only one side to the story, was there not?) and now that he has said his part, I'm back to being neutral. Truthfully I don't know much about TAS, not many others might either, so I'm not a professional on the subject.. but....
Voss' reply was professional, well thought out, and most definitely not a rant. Dos whoever you are, I don't think I'm the first to note that you and a few others seem to instigate more and more as time goes on. Makes you wish there was a squelch on this board.
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To follow up on a side subject:
I think Cornered Rat has done a good job with the films they have shown us, of seeing what the game will be like. If anything, they suffer from a bit of over-exuberance.
I think that perception comes from so many years working with HTC, who are positively stoic about hype.
I think CR will deliver WW2OL in some form, perhaps a very basic form, with a few tanks, a couple planes, and an infantryman model. The trick then will be to not let the doors wide open and get flooded. Esp. with hacks.
I'm sure they have that in mind.
All they've set out to do is completely model World War Two down to an infantryman level all the way up to at least a Company Level. In 3D. In Real time. Planes, ships, subs, landing craft, what have you. It will make Everquest's world look like the back of a postage stamp.
I wish them luck, I would like to something, ANYTHING, that does combined arms tactics like that. But I also got into this hobby for the planes. And planes is what AH does best.
X2
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Westy is forgetting one point about the people who play AW--
Yes, there are a lot of idiots there. That can be said about ANY online MMP flight sim--or ANY online game at all for that matter. Trashtalk is a way of life on the Internet (sadly).
For a perspective on how good the flightsim community really is, try unreal Tournament or Counterstrike sometime. MUCH worse.
A LOT of AW's players are there because of the price. 25 or 30 bucks a month is a lot more than many people can or will pay to play a game--especially one which has similar overall gameplay (though admittedly better). There are actually quite FEW "lame doodz" in AW; at 21 years old I consistently find myself being among the younger players online. I have yet to see someone younger than 17 online consistently. Indeed, the people with the greatest capacity for rudeness in AW--or any flightsim--are all older. I have no problem with younger players; more players (and targets) is always a good thing. Just thing of how good AH could be with 3 times as many people--they would have multiple arenas, doubtlessly more scenarios, more terrains, and possibly faster development (HTC could afford to hire some help).
AH is a vastly superior game to AW. I do not dispute this. However, I for one simply cannot afford AH. And believe me, a LOT of people are in AW are there for the same reason--it is the best value for the money when every dollar counts.
I know why AH and WB's charge what they do, but their (comparitively) high price is also what gives AW a niche in the market.
As for AW4....If it is ever made, I think it will be an excellent game, since it would have the newest engine. Of course, I do not expect to see AW4 for a year or more, at the bare minimum--if ever. Work has not even begun on it yet.
OTOH, I can see why Westy's perspective is different than mine. Sometimes witchhunts happen.
J_A_B
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Witch hunt? Not sure what you mean so I'll try and cover the bases. I still like most of he folks I was friends with back in AWville.Oddly the only ones I do not are Gameops or employees of EA/KEsmai. I'm still in contact with quite a few of these friends well over a year after I left. And the scenario side-play of "Westy Must Die" was all in fun and there was no malicious intent behind it on anyones part. I don;t even dislike AW. I feel sorry for it, being as stagnant and as obsolete as it is. But I do resent and have (or rather 'did') alot of ill feelings towards Kesmai/Gemstorm for the complete lack of progress on AW. Aw3 is 1988 AW with a nice wrapp on it. Mostly my problem was the really pathetic direction they were bringing AW and the demographics they were persuing... "RR" and the McDonalds crowd. Never mind their horrendous PR methods. What PR?
I know there are alot of good folks who do not fly here because it is not thier kind of fun (harder and AH has SOME flight managment), a number have PC's that can't handle it or they cannot afford or justify $30/mo. But these folks are the extreme minority of the subsciber base at Gamestorm/EA. As for not seeing many "dUdEs" in AW3, well you must fly FR and not RR (where the vast majoprity of the numbers are). FR had the older folks in it. RR had the idjits. (btw, how are the FR numbers these days? honestly curious)
However I dislike FA and The Zone very much for the very same reasons. But at least FA is evolving where as AW is not. And has not for three years when all we got was 3D with old bugs and all. Minor tweaks and a few major, long over due bug fixes are not evolution.
I dont hate AW. I left for a number of reasons the least of all was due to the age of the program itself.
-Westy
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 01-08-2001).]
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Originally posted by Moose11:
Well, actually, I hate to butt my head in here, but I've followed this thread from the moment I woke up this morning.
Voss' reply was professional, well thought out, and most definitely not a rant. Dos whoever you are, I don't think I'm the first to note that you and a few others seem to instigate more and more as time goes on. Makes you wish there was a squelch on this board.
Write the developers of the UBB and ask for one.
So far since I've starting posting, I've called RAM on the carpet for bashing HT publically. I'm sick of whiners.
I also was part of the discussion on Usenet surrounding TAS. I saw outrageous things come out of it. I saw doctored photos, claims of Ph.Ds, real Derek Smart stuff. Somebody mentioned TAS here. Read up this thread. I'm not the one who posted one of the doctored photos. I didn't claim I was ripped off from a for-pay beta. I just want to know the truth. Is there any harm in the truth?
If you see, all I asked for was Voss to come in and clarify the history. He starts in with DOOM, and the legal fallout and all the developers who he trained and how there *is* an injunction against him forbiding the game from seeing the light of day. All I want to see is some proof.
I think you'll find the rest of my posts have been reasonable, nothing out of the sort. Squelch me in AH if you like. I almost never talk on ch 1 anyhow, so I wouldn't sweat it too much.
X2
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X2, most here probably don't remember Voss or the TAS fiasco or even knew of it. It's probably good, as Voss may want to "start all over again" in regards to community acceptance. I'm sure he learned his lessons.
<S> To Voss and you, X2.
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I don't see anyone in this thread saying "I can't wait till WB goes under!" or anything; just a few people pointing out some of WBs problems. That's not wishing them to go under..I guess people are so touchy/fearful about WB that anyone brining up anything that isn't glowingly positive about it is sitting around waiting to gloat over their doom.
Man, I had NO idea that Hinds was in AH or reading these boards :-) I was just mentioning offhand a long-lost scandal that I didn't feel I had the full story on.
The considered opinion of numerous respectable people who I've had contact with was that TAS was, in fact, a total sham. The truly amazing thing about it was just how effective it was at maintaining doubt in people's minds that it might NOT have been a sham for so long.
[This message has been edited by Torgo (edited 01-08-2001).]
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
X2, most here probably don't remember Voss or the TAS fiasco or even knew of it. It's probably good, as Voss may want to "start all over again" in regards to community acceptance. I'm sure he learned his lessons.
<S> To Voss and you, X2.
Ok. I won't push it. Torgo sums it up anyhow.
We'll let the Hands of Fate take care of it...
X2
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Yeah Voss its me. Can I get my confidentiality paperwork back now? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
X2, just so there is no confusion, this is Ram1 from Warbirds, not RAM from AH who you guys are so fond of. Not sure which RAM you were referring to in your message.
Yeager, if you want to know why many of us are still flying Warbirds contact me privately and I will gladly supply you with details from my perspective. Its not loyalty to IEn as much as a bunch of other issues which are starting to surface in AH from what I can tell.
Ram1
31st Fighter Group
CO 309th Fighter Squad
Historical Arena CM
Warbirds Trainer
Formerly 901st Immortals (The best virtual squadron that ever flew (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Hehe Yeager, it all depends on your frame of reference, and what you expect, I suppose (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
How has the current WB team "treated me?"
Well, they haven't provided a lot of updated versions, that's for sure. They spent a lot of time "fixing" a TERRIBLE update produced by the previous team (2.6), made one significant FM update (love it, hate it, you choose, but I'm used to it now), and produced one "legitimate" update (2.7x). So, no, they haven't given me any new toys to play with.
OTOH, they DID show themselves to be open to changing the way the game itself was played, (something the previous team would never consider) in their willingness to allow the World War II Arena, their continued support for the HA and "experimental" arenas like the (cough) "Expert Arena."
In the meantime, they took a fairly risky (considering the financial health of the company) step in basically starting over from the ground up with the WB3 "modular" concept. Maybe that will fail, but given that there really isn't anything "wrong" with WB 2.7x (other than a few "forgivable" bugs), I lean toward giving them a chance to build their new sim, rather than pissing away their future maintaining the old one.
Should I turn the critical eye you reserve ONLY for WB on the oh-so-wonderful Aces High "concept?" Oh, what the heck! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Two years on, and still lacking even ONE of the planes to do a Battle of Britain or Midway scenario. The "meat-and-potatoes" Hellcat only provided in the last three weeks. Half the planeset consists of varients. Only one Axis bomber. Arena play that centers primarily on the overuse of ONE unbalancing plane, which was at best a MINOR player in the real conflict. Arena play that can be totally "subverted" by the "abuse" of poorly-modeled ground/sea units by "clever" game-the-game types. Claims of "vastly superior" flight modeling touted by both players and developers for MONTHS, only to have that flight model made (ahem) MORE like Warbirds (OOPS!) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
To give the "benefit of the doubt," let's say I agree that EVERY individual aspect of Aces High is slightly superior to its counterpart in Warbirds. The GAMEPLAY is still no better, has made NO advancement over what you could do in Air Warrior 10 years ago, and, due to the limited focus of the plane set, can't even match the VARIETY of either Warbirds OR Air Warrior. After two years.
Not saying any of that is "bad," or that it's not understandable for a "start-up" company, or that I think AH isn't a great sim, because it clearly IS "leading edge" in many areas.
But you ask me how I can put up with the way iEN has "treated me?" In terms of sticking with the community through "tough times" and remaining committed to the sim, I think I can make an argument that the current WB team has "treated me" a heckuva lot better than EITHER of the two previous teams did, despite the fact that the previous guys were "cooler" and "smarter" and "more fun."
Aside from taking two years to produce a slightly better "technical" simulation incorporating essentially the same gameplay and "vision" provided by Air Warrior in 1991, how has HTC "treated" you? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
--jedi
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Torgo I was one of the so-called beta testers and the only thing I can tell you about Voss is that he sure can tell stories.
It got very ugly and nothing came of it but alot of wasted time.
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This is not posted to bash any company or person....
1. HTC and CRS companies - Both have coded succesful ww2 online combat sims (WB and DOA)
2. IEN - no original ww2 online combat software ever.
3. AH - been here for over a year and keeps getting better, I personaly think that it will pass WB in planes and features in the next 6 months or so.
4. WW2 Online - Can't say much, but I've seen the films, and I've been to their offices and seen the program with my own eyes, it's not vaporware and it will do most if not all of what they are saying it will do.
I am putting my money on tangable success and experience. I don't think WB3 will ever see the light of day. WW2 OL is behind schedule but it will make it out of the box at least. HTC and CRS have a 2 HUGE passions, WW2 aviation and online gaming. Combine that will technical skill, savy and a great work ethic and you have a winning combination. I saw none of those before I left "free" WB as a trainer, though that's not why I left, HS tops that list (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Hell I almost took a job there....
I fully expect the competition to be between CRS and HTC. I'll be playing both though (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Udie
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When are you gonna get yourself a joystick that works Udie and come join us in the virtual skies of AH? :-)
Unless you're back already, dunno since I fly wierd times.
-SW
ps: This thread was done since it first started, no point in dropping a nuke on a dead horse now is there? :-)
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Originally posted by AKSeaWulfe:
When are you gonna get yourself a joystick that works Udie and come join us in the virtual skies of AH? :-)
Unless you're back already, dunno since I fly wierd times.
-SW
ps: This thread was done since it first started, no point in dropping a nuke on a dead horse now is there? :-)
Udie is in AH, I've seen him in the skies.
X2
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Originally posted by jedi:
Two years on, and still lacking even ONE of the planes to do a Battle of Britain or Midway scenario. The "meat-and-potatoes" Hellcat only provided in the last three weeks. Half the planeset consists of varients. Only one Axis bomber. Arena play that centers primarily on the overuse of ONE unbalancing plane, which was at best a MINOR player in the real conflict. Arena play that can be totally "subverted" by the "abuse" of poorly-modeled ground/sea units by "clever" game-the-game types. Claims of "vastly superior" flight modeling touted by both players and developers for MONTHS, only to have that flight model made (ahem) MORE like Warbirds (OOPS!) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
The GAMEPLAY is still no better, has made NO advancement over what you could do in Air Warrior 10 years ago, and, due to the limited focus of the plane set, can't even match the VARIETY of either Warbirds OR Air Warrior. After two years.
Not saying any of that is "bad," or that it's not understandable for a "start-up" company, or that I think AH isn't a great sim, because it clearly IS "leading edge" in many areas.
Aside from taking two years to produce a slightly better "technical" simulation incorporating essentially the same gameplay and "vision" provided by Air Warrior in 1991, how has HTC "treated" you? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
--jedi
Wow. That took guts. You do have your flamesuit on, right?
I will go through the points, since I have been accused of being a rabble rouser and
a HTC Cheerleader:
1. The planeset was late war focused from the start. No shock about BoB planes or Midway planes for that matter. It can't even be considered a valid criticism, just a preference.
2. Variants don't require 3D models, but change the flight model. The game is about flight modelling in a larger online war context. Again, is this really a criticism? BTW, AH is really only slightly over one year old (not two), so I'm sure they are quite competitive with other games that have more planes timeline wise.
3. The abuse of the Chawg is being looked into. Personally, I think you take it off the CV and that solves half of it.
4. Abusing the system to "game" it. I don't know what you mean, other than beating down one side to 2 fields and then not finishing them off.
5. The last and most harsh criticism, that HT has essentially reverted to his WB flight model. I think that's wrong. I'll let others chime in with all the flight dynamics that are modelled that are not in the WB model. I will concentrate on a simple point. In AH, everything is a 3D model. It's not a scaled bitmap. The cockpit is 3D. You can move your head around in it. The scaling is much better. Depth perception is no contest.
I also think AH feels alot different. Is it better? Well, energy fighting is harder, it is alot harder to fly and fight well in AH, but that's my take.
I don't think you will get many takers now that 1.05 is out that gameplay is the same as Air Warrior.
X2
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Originally posted by Ram1:
Yeah Voss its me. Can I get my confidentiality paperwork back now? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
X2, just so there is no confusion, this is Ram1 from Warbirds, not RAM from AH who you guys are so fond of. Not sure which RAM you were referring to in your message.
Ram1
31st Fighter Group
CO 309th Fighter Squad
Historical Arena CM
Warbirds Trainer
Formerly 901st Immortals (The best virtual squadron that ever flew (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
No, I meant RAM, not RAM1.
Speaking of the 901st, what happened to 6gun?
X2
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Been here since BETA, seen guys come and go over trivial matters and over very serious things. Here's my take on it.
I left WBs due to a severe lack of support. When 2.76 was released people were screaming (literally) about many very bad bugs. I got flamed more than once for reporting bugs that were happening offline. Drones killing me when I shoot them, failure to fix the skip bombs, etc... When that mess happened, I took off. I simply couldn't take it anymore; a company that refused to fix major problems does not deserve my attention.
I came here looking for something better to do, and found it. None of the planes, guns, vehicles, bombs, rockets, or spitwads are porked for game play purposes. WBs flight modeling has yet to learn the word "subtle". Each plane is a lesson in extremes; the Hurricane can turn within the width of a quarter. While the Fw-190s can barely make a hammerhead without stalling. Gunnery was porked for gameplay (beachball-sized bullets) and damage was turned WAY down. On top of this, they still don't know how the 30mm Mk 108 is supposed to work.
As I see it, WBs is highly dated. This is the first release in nearly 8 months, and all they're doing is fixing bugs that should have been fixed in 2.76. Heel-dragging of this nature I can't stand. Probably has to do with my method of thinking; if you can fix it now, then fix it. A few times I've posted a real simple idea here; spend one entire version fixing bugs and revamping things. When we get to 5.441 they'll probably do just that, but right now most of the problems are minor.
Community in WBs, and my interaction therein, was limitd to their boards and the occasional e-mail I got. I spent all of 4 hours online during the Great Arena Bug Hunt. Interacted with a dozen people at most, shot a few guys down, and swore to myself about the FMs. Dale knows the word "subtle" all too well. Granted it took him a while to fix FMs, gun recoil (good laugh there), and some other things. But he got it done in a month or two, not a year.
Cockpits are as real as you can get without blowing 1.3 billion dollars on a Super-Computer or buying your own Fw-190.
They've got a full-time Bug Report board here. iEN has their little "BETA board" which is only open during a new release.
Pyro will actually correct people, HiTech will joke with you, and Natedog has sent me wailing out of my chair laughing a few times. Iceman is the only guy there who gives anything for anyone.
If you've got better data and proof something is wrong, Pyro will jump-to and get it fixed. After what, two years, they're just getting around to fixing the 30mm.
We've got vehicles you can drive, ships you can man, and boats you can run. WBs has none.
We've got a limited plane-set that HiTech and Pyro are fixing right now by working on 1.06. Hell the first plane of 1.06 is nearly complete. WBs has 56 planes, and of that only 20 are used to much of an extent.
In short: I'm staying here. I like the people (most of the time (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) ), enjoy the friendly banter with the Admin, and don't have to worry about getting my bellybutton roasted over some sarcastic comment. Updates are hot and heavy, show up about once every month or three. Bugs are fixed promptly when they're found. I can't ask for more from a company that has my undevided attention.
-----------------------
Flakbait
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
"With all due respect Chaplian, I don't think God wants to hear from me right now.
I'm gonna go out there and remove one of His creations from this universe.
And when I get back I'm gonna drink a bottle of Scotch like it was Chiggy von Richthofen's blood and celebrate his death."
Col. McQueen, Space: Above and Beyond
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/custom1.jpg)
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Jedi. WB's 2.6 was a product of the team in place after HiTech and Pyro left. Don't lump that crap on these folks. HiTech and Pyro subcontracted AFTER Killer/Mo et al, the 2.76 folks, left to over seas the transition. They maintained the servers and hosts for that brief time. HiTech and Pyro did not set the direction of nor produced WB's for that very brief period. iEN could have moved back to WB 2.5 at anytime they wished till they'd had it fixed. But iEN did not.
Also. AH took 2 years? where do you get your math from? At the AW 1999 Con (in September)HiTech had an early alpha of AH. I also heard iEN had one of WB III at the WB's con a couple minths prior. I've been using AH now for a year. How's WB3?
One more question? If you feel that iEN treats it's community and customers well then please tell me why they ostracised Argo's place as reagrds ot anything about WB3? They didn't prior to the layoffs.
I've been treated with respect and supported beyond my greatest expectations by HTC. HTC and crew have delivered a superior product to anything out there. Features such as clouds, terrain builder, mission planner, drop-tanks, guncam utility, mannable fleets, ground vehicles (that are far beyond what you may recall from AW) and much more. Yes, WB's folks did get a nice "skin" utility ut Aw has had that for 3 years. So nothing new there either.
iEN had three to four times the crew working on WB's and in the same time could not deliver.....well...anything but screen shots.
-Westy
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 01-08-2001).]
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Dos Equis:
Last word I had was that 6gun was doing some of the legal begal stuff for Playnet. Haven't heard much since.
Ram1
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Originally posted by Ram1:
Dos Equis:
Last word I had was that 6gun was doing some of the legal begal stuff for Playnet. Haven't heard much since.
Ram1
I got to meet 6gun about this time last year ram1 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Was nice to meet him after so many years of flying with him.
udie
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Speaking of old vets, whatever became of Garn, the best Warbirds pilot ever?
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Rip1:
Garn was a Japanese college student and the last I heard still flies WBs but not that often.
I have his last email address if you want to
contact him. Not sure if its still good or not. Send me private email and I will forward it to you.
He is very good (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Ram1
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How long will it take for Scop to come in claim that he is 'the best pilot ever'?
Drex and Garn ever duel seriously?
// fats
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I watched Garn in a P38F take on Drex and Jagr waaaay back when...Garn was 500 feet off the deck, Jagr and Drex (May have been Disco Fever)jumped Garn in their P38L's from alt, Garn shot both down after a 5 min furball, I witnessed this from my bomber position and orbited the scene. I could not believe it, Garn is indeed one of the best I've ever witnessed.
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Have to agree on Garn. I've seen him jump into furballs with 5 aircraft. I usually would get one that was trying to jump him before he got the other 4. I usually got the feeling I was simply stealing his 5th kill as opposed to clearing his 6.
The guy was incredible.
AKDejaVu
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Garn is the only WB player I was ever afraid of. There was a period where I would not attack him even if I had an altitude advantage.
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BTW, Garner does fly AH. I have seen him.
His English is much improved, he's quite fluent now.
In WB, I needed help as the CO of Fast Carriers as the Japanese side. I was getting outmanned, people didn't want to fly the IJN, since the Hellcat was so lethal and the A6M5 was no match as modelled in WB. So I was going up with maybe 40 people against 60-75 US flyers.
I wrote Garn an email. He showed up with many Japanese players, even though it was like 7am for him. In the period of the last 3 frames of 8, he was the high scorer in kills of the whole scenario.
I've flown against him, he's very very good. I used to know his name, I lost it. He still lives in Japan.
XX
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Westy~
In AW right now, the FR numbers are about the same as they were when you left--
Roughly 120-140 up on a good night, maybe a dozen or so on in early morning. In other news, they finally managed to get rid of the 870 arena map which was left over from DOS AW.
Mostly, I DO fly RR in AW, but only because AW's FR is hopelessly obsolete (not to mention more people fly there). ACM should not be about trying to keep the G-meter pegged at 5.9999G's. In AH I have no problem with full realism. In fact, I love AH's blackout model.
Most the people I talk to online, even in RR, know about Aces High and Warbirds--and the general agreement is always the same--if either was cheaper people would go there.
J_A_B
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Jedi, while I do tend to think you look at WB's with a unwarranted warm and rosy feeling while casting a very discriminating eye on AH. I agree with you on some points.
And I too am an "old timer" that started with AW, was in WB's since 0.99, and AH since the first day of beta. We have many things in common, but also many area's of disagreement. I simply think it comes down to preference in many cases.
I too dislike the majority of players that overly depend on the F4U-1C and the Ostwind. I also dislike the simplicity of the damage models and gameplay for the ground vehicles, but I do feel that aside from the PT boats, I think the Fleet in AH is about right (I'll withhold thoughts on the PT right now). But isn't there also (and always has been) a "plane of the week" in WB's as well? In order from my memory, the Fw190D9 (pre-800lbs), the P-38L, the Spit IX, and lately hasn't it been the 109F ? Both games in my opinon suffer from the same problem and always has. So is it fair for the pot to call the kettle black in this regards? Its the players not the game.
I too am a lover of historical events, and think that its the most fun you can have in this type of game. True, the WB's planeset is superior to the AH's one. No arguement there. But to criticize AH's and point out its mostly varients, lets go back to the same period in WB's developement and lets compare. Also isn't a large percentage of the "50 planes in WB's" also varients? And lets not forget cases where its a difference in semantics, for instance WB's counts the Me109G6 and the Me109G6/R6 as two seperate planes, and AH considers them a single plane with two different armament loadouts.
Personally I don't care that we don't have a planeset to do "Battle of Britain" or "Midway" in AH. How many times can you do the same old BOB scenario, and have it be fun? Both have been done to death, and you couldn't pay me to design, run, or play in another BOB scenario in a very long time. There's way too many "new" and fun scenarios out there. And they don't just have to be early war (as some elitists think in the WB's community). Midwar and Late war can be just as fun.
And being a Scenario person, I would think that you would herald AH for at least its one accomplishment that has been the single biggest advancement in scenario play since AW. The Terrain Editor. A custom terrain that covers the actual area where the battle was fought is too me, just as important and critical to immersion as the needed plane varients. How many times has a WB's event been played on a "generic" terrain, or been held up for months or years, waiting for a terrain to be built?
But I guess where I disagree with you the most is in the areas of the two following statements.
OTOH, they DID show themselves to be open to changing the way the game itself was played, (something the previous team would never consider) in their willingness to allow the World War II Arena, their continued support for the HA and "experimental" arenas like the (cough) "Expert Arena."
and
The GAMEPLAY is still no better, has made NO advancement over what you could do in Air Warrior 10 years ago, and, due to the limited focus of the plane set, can't even match the VARIETY of either Warbirds OR Air Warrior. After two years.
While I do applaud the willingness of the current iEN staffs to experiment with new and different arena concepts (to me their greatest strength), different doesn't necessarily equate to better for alot of people and its mostly a matter of preference.
I like the MA as AH (and AW before it) has implemented it.
I totally hated the RPS, and its attached constant squeaks and moans about introduction dates, "ebb and flow", "generations", and all the rest of that crap.
I also dislike the Axis vs. Allied concept. Its too decisive too the community, panders to the "I'll switch to the side with best planes" inequalities in numbers, and to me can be just as boring in matchups as you point to in AH. In each phase of the generations or RPS, the matchups are just as bland or boring than the current CV fights in AH. You mostly see the same 2-4 planes in the arena at the same time and it rarely changes.
Now I understand that you and others like these things, and I think thats fine in my opinon.
But those are differences in communities, and how each community likes to play the game. Not a difference in the two games.
Its just a matter of preference of "how to play the game" in most cases, that decides it for alot current players of both WB's and AH (especially among the vets and oldtimers).
If you look purely at the "Game" in a technical manner and compare the two, I think WB's has only a single factor that is better than AH, and thats the size of its planeset.
But AH has so many things that make it stick out in my mind as superior. User configureable views and 3D cockpits. Variable loadouts and armament options that effect the aircrafts CG, or for instance drop tanks, or the G6 vs G6/R6. A working GunCam. The mission planner/editor. The Terrain Editor. Clouds! (something that enhances fights beyond belief). User controled CV's (another big plus to future scenario play). Ground Vehicles and Naval units (again a debatable issue depending on POV). Sure WB3 may have some of these features, but lets wait until we see how it comes out in public before you hail its evolutionary features.
And these are just the major points, there are many minor ones I'm sure I'm missing.
But the games, and how we play the games, are two seperate issues, and is highly influenced by our personal and highly subjective preferences.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 01-10-2001).]
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Man,Verm, you a politician? Damn fine post...and I read it objectivly (meaning I put down my pom poms for a bit)
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Jedi, do you ever get deja vu when you post about AH or are you just digging up old posts of yours and doing a search and replace of WB with AH and then AW with WB?
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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Pyro, I get deja-vu's when I see all these posts about the cannon-armed F4U <G,D,R>
Daff
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CO, 56th Fighter Group
"This is Yardstick. Follow me"
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I came across garn one evening when he was crocked on saki (had to have been)...I shot him down several times in the space of a few minutes.
Mebbe it was his dog or something......
Eman was pretty damned good too!
Drex was the best fight for my money with scop being nearly as good and just as capable. almost.
Yeager
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Hehe I thought this topic got squashed, it was only moved! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
As usual, you guys completely missed my point (my fault undoubtedly for not being clear) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) and immediately shift into defensive mode. Even Pyro didn't get it, although he came the closest.
OK, admittedly, I'm not "in awe" of the guys who build these games. I never kissed BlueBaron and Moggy's butt in AW, I never kissed Pyro and HTs butt in WB, and I'm not gonna start now. It's all just opinion, of course, and you can dispute me or discount me as you will.
Cards FULLY on the table, just this once: I felt somewhat "betrayed" when HT and Pyro picked up their toys and left WB. Everyone basically blamed iEN for that, and we all know iEN is made up mostly of buffoons, but iEN didn't "quit" and they didn't leave. While I can empathize to some extent with the decision, I can't "honor" it as being "well-treated." The subsequent departure of the NEXT WB team was TOTALLY "unprofessional" IMO (remember I SAID this was all opinion) and those guys I will NEVER be particularly interested in supporting again. As noted, Pyro and HT bailed out WB at that time, "redeeming" themselves in my mind. That's why I didn't just fade away--I LIKE this sim, and I LIKE the guys who build it.
Unfortunately, I also like the other sim, and the guys I fly with there, and at the moment I can't really justify the time or cost to fly both. So that's where I'm coming from: iEN hasn't treated ME, personally, any "worse" than the guys who get so much "hero worship" around here, and I've never been the hero-worship type. It's a game, made for profit, and I'm gonna give my opinions on what I do or don't like about it. So sue me. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
So, there, more than you ever wanted to know about what makes me tick. If you're waiting for me to grovel at the feet of the guys building these sims, you're gonna have a long wait. If you think I do that at AGW, you better read a few more of my posts over there. My personal opinion is that WB has at least as many areas where it falls short of "accurate simulation" as AH does, and I don't think I'm shy about telling them so. If you think all I do is complain, well, that may be a fair assessment I guess, but OTOH, if you can't see that your OWN sim has some areas where "constructive criticism" may be helpful, then I feel sorry for you. Would it really be "bad" to have early war planes? Would it be "bad" to see fewer cannon-armed Corsairs in the arena? Or is it just "bad" that a Warbirds player calls you on it? You want ME to pay for a game, then it's MY standards that have to be met. You can say that MY concerns aren't important to YOUR enjoyment of the sim, but that just means that no one else with MY concerns will be playing it either.
And, since we're apparently getting personal now, IMO Pyro and HT need to be better able to identify legitimate criticism and less prone to treat everything as a personal attack. I challenge you to find even ONE post where I don't agree that AH is a great sim, or one post where I don't agree that the AH team is very talented indeed.
My opinion may be less "valued" than that of a paying customer, but that doesn't make it any less valid. I outlined the things that help keep me from signing up full time. Change them or don't, but don't assume there aren't other guys who are looking for similar things in a sim. You may not care whether I ever become a customer, but you'd better be able to look past the personality and see the reasoning.
--jedi
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And, just to be fair, here's how I rate the two sims. 10 points for "best," and then how the other one compares (in my warped mind)...
Graphics (airplanes): AH 10, WB 7
(No contest at the moment, AH planes are sweet!)
Graphics (terrain): AH 9, WB 10
(Can't explain it, just feelings)
Graphics (cockpit): AH 8, WB 10
(Sorry, bring the earlier versions up to the same standard as the later ones)
Graphics (views): AH 10, WB 7
(Clean kill, but AH views are TOO generous)
Flight model (cruise): AH 10, WB 9
(You win, more sophisticated, better feel, but not much more "realistic")
Flight model (TO/LDG): AH 7, WB 7
(Not pickin a best here, both too easy)
Flight model (spins): AH 9, WB 9
(Too close to call, both good, neither great)
Flight model (drag,E): AH 10, WB 8
(You have to pay more attention in AH--good)
Gunnery: AH 8, WB 8
(Sorry, not gonna give "best" to a system where you can kill at d10 OR a system where you can dump a whole ammo load into your opponent for nada)
Damage model: AH 9, WB 8
(Both still need more "real" effects, but guns were dangerous, and in AH they really are--still no "best" tho, sorry)
Gameplay (plane set): AH 6, WB 10
(Not just the emphasis, the specific planes in AH are poorly chosen)
Gameplay (arena): AH 5, WB 10
(You say tomato, I say tomahto, but I didn't like the MA 5 years ago, I'm sure not gonna like it now)
Gameplay (scenarios): AH 8, WB 10
(Haven't flown one in AH, so benefit of the doubt given, but planeset and terrain limit the potential scenarios at this time)
Gameplay (strat): AH 10, WB 9
(Nothing really new, but at least more to do)
Ground vehicles: AH 0, WB 0
(Ask someone who cares) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Ships: AH 10, WB 9
(You can drive em, but that's a double-edged sword) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
That's about all the stuff I actually care about (price is close enough that I won't give WB any points for being cheaper). So, what's the tally? Looks like:
AH 129, WB 131. Pretty darn close, until you add in...
Community: AH 7, WB 10
(Sorry, you guys go for the throat a little too quickly, and of course the WB community has my squaddies in it) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
So, it's AH 136, WB 141. Pretty close. Consider it "marketing research." (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Well. Now I'd much rather have a beer with you and talk about WWI aircombat and aircraft than spar about online games.
<S> to you Jedi.
-Westy
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Couldn`t have said it better myself he he. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I want to expand on one thig you said Jedi:
Graphics (terrain): AH 9, WB 10
(Can't explain it, just feelings)
That "feeling" your talking about I think I can explain it. At least from my POV.
In WB, there is a very good depth perception, at 5k, 15k, 20k, 25k, 30k you can see the differences in very well. You also are immersed by the haze of dawn & dusk, ground flak is very nicely done as it rises to your plane at the higher alts. Playing around with 1.05 this was the biggest thing I noticed missing graphicly.
I wonder why their 2nd time around this wasn`t as good or even better? Guess some things you get right the first time and can`t improve on or re-create (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Skybax
328th Fighter Squadron
www.352ndFighterGroup.com (http://www.352ndFighterGroup.com)
Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney
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Uhhh the criticism of the two gunnery models is, in actuality, a criticism of the damage models.
Any system that models half the rounds actually fired is much less satisfactory than one that models all of them.
Scenarios, well, the WB ones I've played which tried to do CAS were pretty miserable. We've actually got that here.
The WB "altitude" feeling is IMHO largely a factor of their sky, which is definitely superior to AH.
Terrains and terrain textures are coming out of the woodwork at an alarming rate.
Outside of that, you've got most of it right.
(although how you can give WB arena play a 10-5 advantage over AH when they both are relatively dull surprises me.)
What alarms me is that the day I cancelled my iEN account was the day I realized how much AH had spoiled me.
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Originally posted by Dos Equis:
So far since I've starting posting, I've called RAM on the carpet for bashing HT publically. I'm sick of whiners.
I challenge you to do two things.
1-To post a link to a message where I have bashed HTC, or HT.
2-To post a link to where you have called RAM for a carpet for that reason. (whatever that means)
If you cant do one of those two things ( and for sure #1 you wont be able), then I suggest you to erase that stupid affirmation, and let me in peace for once at all.
If you are sick of whiners, then I am sick of lier,name calling underdeveloped lowlife individuals like you. Scum.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 01-13-2001).]
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And BTW ,apart of that all I have said about you you are another thing: you are a difamator. Your affirmations regarding TAS and Voss are incredible. Either you come here with PALPABLE evidence of what you are talking about, or retract and apologize at once.
I think that cheap difamation like the one you did here is punishable by law.
If you dont do either of those things then you are less than a scumbag. But I am sure you wont do anything.
You throw the stone and then hide the hand. how typical.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 01-13-2001).]
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Voss??
Still waiting for that pasted proof of restraint. And the list of 'team members' who went on to work for other producers.
I was part of that fiasco, Voss never explained himself, but Doom sure did. Put up or shut up Voss. Paste the list and restraint order here or continue to live with your well deserved reputation as a liar. Game developer, my butt!
[This message has been edited by Brazos (edited 01-15-2001).]